Am I steering my own, true course or heading for the rocks?

[Smithmom]

Copa. If he agreed to see a therapist that sounds like a huge step. That's admitting with some issue, on some level, outside help would be good. You still don't know if he'll follow through but its better than the usual there's nothing wrong with me. Still could be manipulation. The whole thing could be manipulation. But at some point you need to make yourself vulnerable. No progress ever if you are never vulnerable.

Definitely let him pick the therapist. Personally I'd take a sub abuse therapist over a family therapist. The problem in his location isn't family, its sub abuse.

Communication channel open... Good progress for today!

 

[Copabanana]

Communication channel open... Good progress for today!

I feel like I went through the spin cycle. But this is a good reminder. What did it matter if we were not physically present, together? This would be a better result than I had anticipated. I hope he follows through. I am making myself vulnerable. Because of all this back and forth today, I was so confused, I completely forgot about my conditions. Better this way.

and then brought D in. D loved him and I relinquished my relationship so D could see him. D never argues going and has opened up so much. We go as a family sometimes but D has full control.

This is about D, Caretoomuch's son's therapist. This is fantastic. Just fantastic. I am amazed by him.

And now the whiplash:

B, "yes. I won't come there Dad is there"
B, " I won't come for Thanksgiving or Christmas either and don't buy me anything either"
Me, " you don't want anything?"
B, "No and if you give me anything I will put it at your front door"

Oh geez. Let him shoot himself in the foot. Fine. Don't come.

"No and if you give me anything I will put it at your front door." Really?

Where do they come up with this stuff? Is there an online course? Poor Dad. I hope he doesn't know he is being scapegoated.

 

[Tired out]

Where do they come up with this stuff? Is there an online course? Poor Dad. I hope he doesn't know he is being scapegoated.

NO..Dad doesn't know. Dad is really still upset with him and I think has PTSD from ds's actions. He says ds can come for TG but he wants notice to lock everything up. FUN let's be on guard against theft for the day. Even though it hurts my heart I guess I am glad he doesn't want to come. Dad took that kid to every baseball game, coached, practiced, stood on his head for that kid. Where do they come up with these skewed memories?

 

[Copabanana]

ds can come for TG but he wants notice to lock everything up. FUN let's be on guard against theft for the day.

Oh my gosh. Just give me the Maalox right now.

I feel so sad for Dad. What he needs is a good cry. He must be just devastated inside, and not know what to do with it (except to lock up everything, like he wishes he could lock up his heart). Is there a way you can go out of town together, and just be the two of you? In my area (a few hours) there is a town with hot springs and you can just soak, and get mud baths. (But I guess it is really cold where you are.) Maybe a hot tub would have to do. But to be alone together, so he can cry.

Whatever I do I would keep sniper-mouth son (who actually sounds very smart, and adorable in his way) away from his tender-hearted DAD.

 

[Elsi]

Copa, don’t get too discouraged. This kind of poor follow through is typical and I truly believe reflects the dysfunction they are living in rather than a premeditated desire to hurt. What good does it do to bring intention into the equation at this point? Today didn’t work out. Hopefully Thursday will. It’s great that he has agreed seeing a therapist is a good idea! That’s a step. It’s progress.

Sometimes our children do want to hurt us, or manipulate and use us. Of course it’s natural to have our guard up. But I don’t think that’s necessarily the case with J right now. All you know right now is he couldn’t get his act together in time to make his train yesterday. Let’s see what happens Thursday. Remember your boundaries and stick to them but outside of that I would try not to read Too much into whether he calls when he said he would, makes it on time to agreed on meetings, etc. He is living in extreme dysfunction. His ability to live within our time and social norms is going to be limited. Try not to take symptoms of his dysfunction personally.

Hang in there. Focus on you today and tomorrow and try to stay centered. Big hugs.

 

[Tanya M]

It is easier to text; less easy to talk; harder still to anticipate seeing him, the person he has become.

I feel the same way with my son.

How do I not bring into myself all of this in the form of pain, or denial? How can I let him be, let him be himself, without making it into a tragic story about me? It is hard. How do I stay in the present and hold hope? How to tolerate the pain and the love in the same moment, without escaping through anger or control or even conflict? How do I allow myself to be present and to feel?

As much as we separate our lives from theirs, we are still part of the story, we are the parents who love them. As for how to let him be himself, you just do. For myself, accepting that my son was going to live a homeless life was not easy but necessary. I just as you have tried my best to offer solutions to live a better more productive life but my son wants no part of that. I don't like the way my son chooses to live but I cannot allow his choices to bring darkness into my life. I am not getting younger and do not want to years down the road, look back with regret of things I should have done for myself. I will always hope that my son will make better life choices but that's up to him, not me.

I'm sorry the visit with your son didn't work out. I know the anxiety that goes with the anticipation of seeing him. Always remember to just step back and breathe, those slow deep breaths. Set in you mind what your boundaries will be and be firm with them and him. Knowing what you will and won't tolerate from him will help you. Of course he may not like the boundaries you've set but that's okay. This isn't all about him, you and your feelings matter too!

((HUGS)) to you!!

 

[Copabanana]

Thank you both of you. And all.

He texted me just now: don't worry. I'm on my way now (to the agency, to set up a therapy visit.)

 

[BusynMember]

This is terrific!

 

[Tired out]

Thank you both of you. And all.

He texted me just now: don't worry. I'm on my way now (to the agency, to set up a therapy visit.)

AS we all pray "Let this be true" to know at least one of our lost children is making a real attempt to get help and hopefully make things a little better.

 

[Tired out]

Whatever I do I would keep sniper-mouth son (who actually sounds very smart, and adorable in his way) away from his tender-hearted DAD.

..who sounds adorable? B, ds? He used to be. Still has the looks but the attitude is awful. Maybe I need to go back the post I started when all this came to a head.

 

[Copabanana]

He did not go to the agency to set up the therapy appointment. I lost my card under the truck seat.

I had volunteered to travel where he is on Thursday, which is a long train trip for me. And if he does not show up it is a four hour wait to the next train. I am feeling resentful.

I put it on him. You arrange a workable plan and I will come. Determine the station, the time, the rendezvous place, etc. And I will come.

He is hanging out where he was a over a year ago which is a Kentucky Fried Chicken where homeless hang out. He hangs with a group of people. I think he likes it.

Anyway. I texted him at length. Kind of spilled my guts. About everything. The way it ended, I asked him, Are you blowing me off?

And he answered: No. Look. This isn't a good month to meet. Let me do what needs to be done and be miserable with my new reality.

 

[Tired out]

Dang him.
I wonder if he just knows his life sucks and is afraid of the work to make it better. As he was thinking of making the appointment with the therapist it set in that he is going to have to grow-up and be an adult.
He wants a little more time to be a lazy addict?
Prayers, hugs. And wishing he would wake up in the morning and realize he needs to get with life now.

 

[Elsi]

Oh, no. More of the same. I’m sorry. But at least you know you are not heading off on a fruitless mission this week. You have made your offer and done what you can. The next move is all on him.

 

[Copabanana]

Thank you, Tired out. Who knows what he thought?

What he wants is that I do all of the accepting. That I say just come home no matter what. Which is what I cannot, will not do. He has to do something. Whether it is be treatment compliant. Or automatic deduction of "rent" or clean the house....Something. He has to choose in favor of himself.

He wants me to say: me 100 percent. You zero percent. And while I was very very encouraging I would not say you don't have to change at all. Just come home.

I said. It can't go back to the way it was. You have to commit to something. And follow through.

Thank you Elsi.

 

[Tired out]

He wants me to say: me 100 percent. You zero percent. And while I was very very encouraging I would not say you don't have to change at all. Just come home.

Pretty sure mine would like me to say that too!
Plus- I'll divorce dad and you can just sleep all day and I'll pay your way. He is an idiot. Ours sons..fools.

 

[Nomad]

"How do I not bring into myself all of this in the form of pain, or denial? How can I let him be, let him be himself, without making it into a tragic story about me? It is hard. How do I stay in the present and hold hope? How to tolerate the pain and the love in the same moment, without escaping through anger or control or even conflict? How do I allow myself to be present and to feel?"

I'm not sure how. I can share a little of what we do with our special needs child, who might have some similar issues. I have less pain ever since I expect less from her. On occasion, I experience something akin to guilt, because I feel if I took over and almost ran her life, she would be in a better place. However, then I snap out of it, and recognize, that this would VERY likely just about kill me and the percentage of likelihood that all that effort would have a major positive impact is very slim. So...kill myself for a small chance of a small improvement, hardly seems like a good idea. In a certain way, it is tragic for us. No parent wants to have a child, so lost and even worse...at times in danger. I do find seeking spiritual solace helpful. My husband is also very strong and he has helped me tremendously. Few fully understand how horribly difficult this situation is for us. Not that is good for the adult child either. It is a sorrowful situation. I often say I want my daughter to simply try her best; but I am often unsure what that looks like. She doesn't seem to have a good grasp of cause and affect reasoning. BUT, she does (usually) understand basic things like cussing at me is absolutely not ok and I'm not going to tolerate this and I do think she can avoid that. So, that being said, she has greatly reduced this type of thing and when she slips up, she apologizes quickly. BUT, it goes to show you, even putting a big boundary on something (cussing) provides improvement, but no more. NOT a cure. We guide her a little where we can towards necessities. Plus, what I mentioned...boundaries like not getting in trouble with the law and not being abusive to us. She occasionally works a few hours now and then. This is all she seems to be able to muster. I try very hard to be kind and empathetic to her needs and feelings. I limit telling her about mine. I do share, but think about what I will share with her before doing so. At this time, there is a little boundary protecting my heart with reference to the loss of having a child like this. It is a tremendously difficult thing for me and no doubt all of us in this position. As a side note: She sees her psychiatrist very regularly because she actually wants to take her medication. We insist upon this, but it's not really necessary because it is something she wants to do. We have had no luck getting her to see a therapist regularly because she simply doesn't like to go to them. Also, our daughter has made tiny improvements in recent years in terms of her attitudes and behaviors...but they are very very small.

 

[Lil]

Copa I've been off for several days and caught up only by reading just your posts here. I'm worn out just reading all you've got through in just a few days! I thought the therapist idea was so positive, as was his response to it...then another excuse.

I put it on him. You arrange a workable plan and I will come. Determine the station, the time, the rendezvous place, etc. And I will come.

What else can you do here? You've tried, and tried, and tried to meet with him and make plans and he never follows through. You've opened the door, he has to step through. I think "Fine, you make the plans. I'm done." is an appropriate response.

He is hanging out where he was a over a year ago which is a Kentucky Fried Chicken where homeless hang out. He hangs with a group of people. I think he likes it.

I think he likes it too.

Copa, from everything I've read that you've written, it doesn't sound like J is unhappy with his current situation. He is actively choosing homelessness. I don't know why and I'm sure you don't understand it. But this is his choice. If he wanted to come home...he'd do it. You've made it perfectly clear you're willing to work with him. He isn't willing to work with you at this time.

Anyway. I texted him at length. Kind of spilled my guts. About everything. The way it ended, I asked him, Are you blowing me off?

And he answered: No. Look. This isn't a good month to meet. Let me do what needs to be done and be miserable with my new reality.

He may say he's miserable. I don't think he is. I think this is his way of stringing you along.

Oh, Mom! I'm miserable! I'm dirty! I keep losing my tickets, my card, my money, my phone, etc., etc. BUT, I'm not miserable enough to take you up on your kind offer yet...so I'm going to keep reminding you how awful my life is so you'll keep the door open in case I change my mind.

You need a spa day.

 

[Copabanana]

(I wrote this before lil posted. We seem to have come to the same conclusion. Thank you Lil.)

No. Look. This isn't a good month to meet. Let me do what needs to be done and be miserable with my new reality.

I am back to quoting myself, well actually my son. But I have been thinking a lot about what Tired said here, in relation to my son:

As he was thinking of making the appointment with the therapist it set in that he is going to have to grow-up and be an adult.

After reading this comment by Tired I have been thinking about Peter Pan. And so here are the lyrics:

PETER PAN:
Are you ready for today's lesson?

Yes, sir!

PETER PAN:
Listen to your father. Repeat after me:
I won't grow up,
----I won't grow up
I don't want to go to school.
----I don't want to go to school
Just to learn to be a parrot,
----Just to learn to be a parrot
And recite a silly rule.
----And recite a silly rule
If growing up means
It would be beneath my dignity to climb a tree,
I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up
Not me!
Not I,
Not me!
Not me!
I won't grow up,
----I won't grow up
I don't want to wear a tie.
----I don't want to wear a tie
Or a serious expression
----Or a serious expression
In the middle of July.
----In the middle of July
And if it means I must prepare
To shoulder burdens with a worried air,
I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up
Not me,
Not I,
Not me!
So there!
Never gonna be a man,
I won't!
Like to see somebody try
And make me.
Anyone who wants to try
And make me turn into a man,
Catch me if you can.
I won't grow up.
----I wont grow up
I will never even try
----I will never even try
I will do what Peter tells me
----I will do what Peter tells me
And I'll never ask him why
----And I'll never ask him why


The meaning of the story is thought by many to be the universal conflict in all of us between growing up and assuming adult responsibilities and remaining a child. Peter never decides to grow up and enter the real world, and his relationship with Wendy after she returns home is continued by returning to take her daughter back to Neverland.

My own son is now 30 years old. Of course I have to face that for him, like with Peter, there will never be a time when he steps up to adult responsibilities, that this is him. I think more and more we are at that point. But at the same time there is a large element of dominance in his stance. That he will not accept any of our terms, no matter how basic. He will not even enter into negotiation with us. The very thought of a compromise, he will not consider. It feels to him, it seems, like he is giving up some essential part of his life and of himself, if he meets us even one quarter of the way.

I have less pain ever since I expect less from her. On occasion, I experience something akin to guilt, because I feel if I took over and almost ran her life,

Nomad is talking here about the awareness that if she took over administrating her daughter's daughter would do better.

I have been studying my faith, and I believe there is a cornerstone belief that everybody deserves their own life. That if we take over their life we deprive them of that right to live it. That they have an independent g-d given right to live the meaning of that life. That each of us has work to do, independently, and it is a wrong thing to act to take that away.

So. There is not the damage to our own spirits (and even souls) it is the damage we do to them, and that this damage is of the most profound kind. It is spiritual.

I do not think I am wrong to encourage my son to help himself, to help himself to live and to live safely and with dignity. But to the extent that my son continues to choose to live a Peter Pan life, it is clearer to me that I can do not a thing to stop him.

I was not wrong to ask for nominal rent and to insist upon it. I was not wrong to have the expectation that he find a way to be responsible for his money, even if that would be a payee. I was not wrong to insist that he find a way to maintain and keep clean the property. These are adult responsibilities that are the duties of everybody who is of sane mind. He is of sane mind.

I have found a place where I can communicate to my son, where I am offering support and concessions. I told him: if you believe I am asking too much, tell me, and we will find something that works for you, that you feel able to do and want to do.

More and more I see what M was saying: J has to do something. Something has to come from him. He has to want something. It can't all come from you.

This is a law of nature. NO matter how much I want it to be different, I cannot change Nature. There is always compromise in order to survive. Organisms have a habitat in which they can maintain their lives. (We have many cactus plants. In the desert cactus will achieve a certain height. At our house they grow giant. They thrive. They defy their natural limits with care, with water, with optimum conditions and they flourish.)

My son is choosing the habitat that he can maintain. He is clearly saying "no" to my encouragement and offers. He neither wants to meet me nor return here, as long as I ask anything of him. Maybe this will change as it gets colder and wetter or if something happens to make the situation uncomfortable for him.
And then he will push again coming home. He will not have done one thing to change. He will want to come when he is using, and he will want to come when he has no money, and he will want to come home as a street person. What will I do?

I think I will act out of the smithmom playbook and I will every single day make suggestions for him to do one thing to make his life better. The communications channel is open, and I will use it. Then one day, maybe, he will decide to do one thing.

The only other option for me is to say: come home. Be anybody you want to be. Do anything you want to do. Pay or not. Don't worry about your health. Just exist. Could I do that?

Yes. I could. Afraid enough I could do it. When his health begins to fail, I could do it? Should I do it now? I don't know.

I think I would feel resentful because allowing him to live like that means I would sacrifice the ability to rent out the front house to tenants. Because if he lives like a homeless person, I don't see who would want to share even a property with him. There is perhaps 50' feet between the two residences, which are separated by the depth of both of their yards, which are divided by fence. M will build a separated entry path for J so that he will not enter their yard to get to his own.

I guess it is not about specific things, specific conditions. It is about his attitude: Take me as I am. Accept me in whatever form I insist upon. This is me. I will not be 1 percent different. Accept no rent. Accept 24 hour marijuana. I am me. And accept my rules about how I impact you.

That is where I have trouble. Am I wrong?

 

[Copabanana]

Oh, Mom! I'm miserable! I'm dirty! I keep losing my tickets, my card, my money, my phone, etc., etc. BUT, I'm not miserable enough to take you up on your kind offer yet...so I'm going to keep reminding you how awful my life is so you'll keep the door open in case I change my mind.

I am not believing him about the lost/broken phones, the lost cards, etc. He gets confused and he forgets to be consistent about what's broken/lost. So. I agree.

This is really focusing my mind. What matters most is his health. I want him alive. If I knew he was medication compliant I could relax a bit.

But the thing is this: if you are homeless how do you keep medication safe. If it is still under patent, a bottle costs $1000 or so. That would not concern me, the money. He gets the medication under a waiver. But there is a rebound effect if he stops. The virus redoubles in strength.

He does not get the concept. He is not reliable in how he takes the medication, unless he has structure. He does not have structure. If he had a person he could go to every day to get the pill, he could do it. But I don't know who or how he could do this. So I am at a complete loss how I help his health, short of letting him come home, without conditions. And if I do that, how am I really helping him? I have made this about me. And I would have decided that my own story is the important one and not his own.

This seems to be the wrong answer. No matter how painful is the idea that he will get ill and die.

 

[BusynMember]

Copa I am so very very sorry.

I tend to be drawn to true story or memoir books about people in difficult social and family situations. I sure wish I coulld remember the name of this book I read a few years ago about a homeless young man.
He wrote it himself. He had been tossed out of his house and I forget why. Drugs? I just dont remember but I think he was living with an uncle or aunt. He had a sister who kept begging him to come live with her, a sister he was on very good terms with. He wouldnt go.

He did nor consider his street life bad. He liked his group of friends and spoke wistfully of even times when he got into trouble. Dang I wish I could remember the books name! Maybe it could help you understand.

After a year on the street, this young man finally decided it was time to go live with his sister and the book ended there. Never found out if he stayed there and grew up.

I read it.in a few hours. It fascinated me. That he had fun. How resourceful he was about making friends, eating, sleeping, keeping warm.

After reading that book I figured some people like street life. You are under no pressure to do anything other than party and take care of your needs. Oh. Drugs were also a big part of the story.

I have also seen several youtubes about people who live on a dime....
(maybe social security only) and choose to live in deserts off the grid in everything from cars to vans to RVs in little communities. Some even chose slab city. I find this fascinating. Not everyone wants a traditional hearth and home. Some cant afford one so they find alternative lifestyles. To me, anything but hearth and home is incomprehensible....but, hey, we are all different.

So Copa I I believe J may like the streets. For now. It offers no responsibility and people who accept you.

But remember that the boy in the book eventually did go live with his sister.

I do think it can wear thin. J will want a better life, I believe. I have hope. And I pray for you both with all my heart.What he thinks is okay now can change. Change is the human condition. There is always change...good or bad.

Meanwhile keep doing your life. You will hear from him again. He will never forget you, his Mother.

Hugs and more hugs.