Antisocial Personality Disorder Diagnosis of my 18 year old son

Discussion in 'Parent Emeritus' started by asldogs, May 26, 2011.

  1. asldogs

    asldogs New Member

    I did give him a written "letter" three weeks ago. He is now down to 4 days left. My plan? Go talk to the police regarding the legalities. If they can escort, great. If not, fine. A couple have offered to be present to support me so I won't be alone. I am already locking up the house when he is not home and I leave. I lock the house when I go to bed. Is there anything else I should be doing or prepared for? I worry about the time I have to work and he will be home. He doesn't have school anymore and will be home next week. Wednesday, is a day I don't work, the day before his deadline....
  2. asldogs

    asldogs New Member

    I have a really stupid question... what does difficult child mean?

  3. mrsammler

    mrsammler Guest

    It's the acronym here for "troubled child"--i.e., the child you're here to talk about. It stands literally for "Gift from God"--used somewhat ironically here. "Good" children--i.e., those without conduct disorders and related problems, are referred to as easy child--i.e., "Perfect Child."
  4. mrsammler

    mrsammler Guest

    I'd be vary wary of leaving him home alone in the final days before an eviction, especially as he's been diagnosed with ASPD, which (as far as I'm concerned) means he's capable of just about anything and can't be trusted at all. I'd worry about him stealing everything that's not nailed down in the final day or two. As for the actual eviction, be sure you've got enough "horsepower" there to manage him--you have no idea how wildly violent and destructive an ASPD 19-yr-old can become once he realizes that you aren't bluffing about evicting him. I was on hand for just such a scenario with my nephew flew into an incredibly violent, destructive rage--smashing lamps and other furnishings, punching holes in walls, attacking me and his brother and mother, etc. Once they realize that the party's over and they really are being evicted and thus there's no more reason to behave acceptably, all bets are off: prepare for violence. Have at least one strong & committed adult male on hand to manage him--two is even better. It won't be pretty.
  5. Star*

    Star* call 911


    I was thinking about you and your son today. All the things that must be going through your mind today; tonight tomorrow. I wish I were there for you in person as a force of one who has been there for support. Once you've been through this? Well, it's not like I could stand there with you and say "Yo dog, dis the easy part - peace out." as your son grabs a trash bag and throws all the things he wants into it as he yells obscenities and hurtful things at you. Because no matter what he says, or doesn't say to you tomorrow? The hard part comes when you are alone. That whah, whah, whah blood pulsing through your ears crunching sound that comes AFTER he leaves and you are sitting on his bed, in his room, grabbing a bed spread or a pillow while you cry thinking about the things that didn't come to fruition. Call it what you will - throwing him out, regaining your sanity, protecting your space, the day your son moved out. The important thing from me to you is that you know it's going to be okay. Not today, not tomorrow....maybe not even a year or two. No one can tell you that. It took us putting our son on a train and (wow this is really absurd because you don't know my whole story like the others do) but putting our son on a train and SENDING him to live with HIS CHOICE - my x the (and no I'm not kidding in the least) socio/psychopath, BiPolar (BP), with Narcissistic and Borderline PD, drug addict, alcoholic, sex addict, womanizer and drug dealer. I'm sure there are a few wonderful things I left out that could shine a light for him somewhere but I'm at a loss. When my son was 4 we left and went into hiding, and my son vowed to FIND his father. Well - he did, and went to visit him and found out that Mom never lied, not once I on the other hand - nearly out of my head worrying my son would be kidnapped and tortured for my benefit. Two years later? Daddy Disney is back in jail - and my son calls me nearly every day to talk and is really quite pleasant and fun to share with. Two years ago? We couldn't look each other in the face or spend 4 minutes in a room together. It's just NOW that the things my son was listening to in thearapy are starting to filter into his head and out of his mouth. It's nothing short of a miracle that he's so calm and while he's not perfect, still has anger, but manages it better? He's in a much better place. We also don't help him financially - don't bail him out - and don't rush to his aid 2 states away. We did send him a box of second hand clothes for some interviews once, and a couple of bucks for some food and recently - sent him and his pup and easter basket- but in two years? That's it and I got a huge thank you each time. before that? Nothing. Not a single thanks - I could have put gold socks on his feet and wouldn't have even gotten a nod.

    As far as changing out the locks and things? yes - Do it. He wouldn't expect it - and if you are so naive to think that he doesn't have a spare.......WRONG.

    I'd also tell a neighbor you trust - if they see him at the house without you there ? Call you - and give them your cell. Ours came through the dog door - when we were gone. So we put locks on the back door and locks on the dog door. I also SWEPT the sand outside under every window - Oh what a blast that was - BIG foot - lol. Baby powder or carpet fresh on the floors in front of all your windows tells you if he's there too - they rarely figure that out - and you can disable your vacuum - and hide the powder so they can't fix it.

    You can also get a safe - and put up all drugs, valuables - change - locks on all the individual doors. Anything you value or cherish. Alarms? Basically worthless - because when was the last time you looked when you heard an alarm? (shrug) I mean if it makes you feel better. Personally I have 3 pitbulls, and a CWP - no no I'm kidding I'm kidding I wouldn't shoot my kid - Taser maybe - but........

    Anyway - I just wanted to let you know - that whatever goes on tomorrow? After he leaves - just know you wouldn't be the only Mom to sit down and have a good cry. it's okay - If I could be there to give ya a hug or take you for a cuppa something. or a shot of something - (WHY IS the rum always gone?) I would - but just know I was thinking about you today - and I'll be thinking about you and your son tomorrow - and maybe if it doesn't go all South? Someday you can tell him from one adoptee to another - that I said - he's damn lucky that anyone cared enough ----but he was destined to be with you - and for that? he's not living up to his end of the bargain - check into the therapy and figure out what it is in the back of his subconscious that makes him so angry about what it is he doesn't know he's angry about. It's pretty liberating - and all he has to do is close his eyes and talk - EMDR therapy is fast, works and helps a lot. Doesn't change who he is, or get rid of his cat like reflexes -----it actually makes him a faster, better person. more fierce - more intense - more intune. I hope he takes my advice.

    hugs -
  6. mrsammler

    mrsammler Guest

    "Was anyone successful in getting him to leave without the police?"

    I was able to pull this off in getting my nephew difficult child (almost certainly ASPD, although I'm no clinician--has every trait in plain, inarguable abundance) out of my sister's house a year ago, but it was literally a brawl involving his younger brother and (especially) me in a very violent scene, him smashing furnishings, punching holes in walls, throwing stuff all over the place, violently cussing out everyone in the house, repeatedly attacking me (I was the "bouncer" who was there to help my sister put him out, so he saw me as the primary enemy), etc etc. My sense is that they never expect that you'll actually do it, and when you do, all of their pretenses fall away and they become viciously violent and abusive. You NEED a strong male to help you, one who won't shy away or back down from the possibility of a violent confrontation, and it's best to literally hide anything that difficult child might grab and use as a weapon--the butcher block, sharp knives in the kitchen, etc. You have no idea how bad it can get when it comes down to actually, literally putting a late-teens male difficult child out of the house. Be prepared.
  7. toughlovin

    toughlovin Guest

    The police are a better option than a violent brawl. For one thing once they know you will call the police they are more likely to think twice. In a sense you have taken it away from the power struggle between you and made it between them and the law.
  8. asldogs

    asldogs New Member

    You people on this blog are incredibly compassionate and understanding!! I am soooooooo glad I found you before this all goes down.
    I have communicated with the police officer that helped out a few months ago when he stole laptops from family friends. He is now working regular patrol and is very glad to come by in uniform on Wednesday. Wednesday after 3pm sometime will be his leaving time. I am waiting for him to come out of his room right now so I can try talking to him about plans and preparation for moving. I am pretty sure he has not made any specific plans or talked to anyone. I will offer to help him look at his options and make some preparations, if he is willing. I don't want him to be escorted out with only the shirt on his back and no where to go. So, lets plan today. He does not know the specific time and date of leaving, yet. He only knows he had until June 2 to make changes in his lifestyle. I am so impressed with when I read your posts, how closely similar your experiences and feelings are to mine. I wish you all could be here with me on Wednesday. I am relieved to know the police officer and a couple (my friends) will be here with me.

  9. asldogs

    asldogs New Member

    Yesterday, I left the house for the afternoon again and "thought" I had locked up the house tight. I came home to find evidence that he and a "friend" got in through an unlatched window. They didn't disrupt anything but left empty cans of pepsi, put the 3 dogs in their crate, his guitar left out and the top to what suspiciously looks like the lid to a flask. Later when my son finally skatedboarded his ass home, there were no words spoken between us. Except to tell him the next time he brings a stranger into MY house without me being here, the police will be called. When I told him to fix the window they came through (too hard to pull up and latch for me) he did. Then he asks, " question, did you go through my wallet and take my house key?" My simple reply, "yes." He had no response. The food I usually buy just for him is gone and I am not replacing it. His little shelf is empty. I cook dinner but do not invite him to come out and eat with me. I leave the left overs and he comes out of his room hungry. He asked if he could eat the left over chicken thighs. I said yes. I make him ask. I do not offer. He has not been taking his medicine (Adderall for ADHD) and so is behaving very impulsively, loud and impatient. Not looking forward to this attempt at talking with him about moving plans today.
  10. mrsammler

    mrsammler Guest

    Your son sounds eerily similar to my nephew difficult child at 18, right down to the small details: leaving a mess behind him wherever he went (with telltale signs of drinking with friends whom he'd brought over), skateboarding, inviting friends into the house to party with him despite instructions to the contrary, and not eating meals with the rest of the family but instead coming out of his room to eat alone afterward. Uncannily similar. And from his behavior, I think you can infer that he's making no preparations to leave. Which means he won't leave easily. I'm glad you've arranged to have a police officer help you on the appointed day.
  11. asldogs

    asldogs New Member

    Well, my attempt to talk to him about plans and preparation for the move... did not go well but did not go as badly as I feared.
    Me: grab a bowl of cereal and come sit down, we need to talk. he didn't like the healthy cereal options I have now that I don't buy his preferred cereal anymore and said he wasn't hungry.
    Me: do you have plans, do you know where you're moving?
    Son: yes
    Me: may I know what they are?
    Son: why do you care, you haven't.....
    Me: where are you going?
    Son: gage (his questionable buddy)
    Me: have you talked to his family? (gage is a jr in high school living with parent or guardian)
    Son: (suspect a lie here) yes, they know and are fine with it.
    Me: when are you moving?
    Son: (anger frustration beginning to show) I don't know MOM.
    Me: Son, that's why we are having this talk now. to plan and prepare. I don't want you to be escorted out with only your shirt on your back and no where to go.
    Son: don't call me son. I'm not your son.
    Me: I know you are angry right now, but you are my son and I want to help make this transition as easy as possible. How can I help?
    Son: I don't want your help.
    Me: ok... when are you leaving?
    Son: I don't know.... this weekend.
    Me: no... it needs to be Wednesday afternoon or Thursday morning. (when the cop friend is available to come by)
    Son: fine, Thursday. gage has school this week and his first day of summer is Thursday.
    Me: what are your plans for packing? You can pack everything and take some things with you, store the rest here or take everything with you.
    Son: no reply
    Me: I will pack, if you don't.
    Son: no reply
    Me: I know you might not accept this right now but I would like to have you come back for dinners together...
    Son: That will NEVER happen!
    Me: .. ok

    He went into the bathroom for a LONG time. crying? Then left the house with his skate board wearing black jeans when it's 90 degrees outside and never ate.
  12. toughlovin

    toughlovin Guest

    I too am really glad you have talked to the police and they will be coming by. It will hard between now and then to just keep mum and see what happens. If the conversation about his plans goes south (good chance) then end it quickly. Whatever you do don't engage if he gets nasty because that will only escalate things. So if he starts to escalate walk away..... let him think he has won. That is basically what happened with my son, we tried to talk to him about following the rules and he quickly got nasty and told me he wanted to bash my teeth in... I backed off, walked away and went to the police.

    I know right now it is really hard to do anything but manage to live there under all this stress for the next few days. Once he is out of the house though you may want to make a move towards communication. He is only 18, has no clue of the world, and given that he has basically been kicked out of the house is probably not going to ask for your help... plus there are all the adoption and other issues he has.

    This was pointed out to me by my therapist when I was just going to wait until he got in touch.. So after talking to her I texted him here and there. Not constantly but every couple of days. At first there was no response but then he got in trouble and called us.

    It is now a year later. a lot has happened since then. He did come back for a short time last summer but is now out of our house probably for good. However we are communicating and it gives us a chance to do something here and there fo rhim to let him know we love him..... yet without taking him on and supporting him. It is a balancing act for sure. We are going to have dinner with my son and his girlfriend tonight which is a huge step for us..... I can't say we have a good relationship right now but it is better than it was.

    I have been thinking about the ASPD diagnosis... one of the things that the DSM says is this can't be diagnosed before the age of 18.... so I would hesitate to really be sure of that diagnosis.... so much brain development and growing up still to do. Given that there is no medications to treat ASPD (that I know of) I don't think that diagnosis really matters much.

    Let us know how it goes... those of us who have been where you are really do understand, unfortunately all too well.
  13. elizabrary

    elizabrary Active Member

    Not surprising, but not so bad. He is desperately trying to make you feel guilty with all the "I'm not your son" talk. I'm sure he is in utter disbelief that you are throwing him out and following through. And good for you for telling him you would call the police if he comes to the house uninvited again. I know this is hard, but you are doing a good job with all of this. Kudos to you for talking to him calmly and depersonalizing everything. That's one of my greatest weaknesses (the talking calmly thing is very hard for me!). Stick to your guns on Thurs if he does not go. I hope this all goes better than you expect. Great job ASL!
  14. susiestar

    susiestar Roll With It

    You handled that discussion very very well. One thing that you might do is put together a list of soup kitchens, food pantries and homeless shelters in your area. Keep a copy by your phone or where youusually sit to answer the phone, in an envelope or something so you don't see it all the time, and keep some copies in an easy to grab place like a specific drawer. Give him a copy when he leaves, and when he calls because he has no where to sleep, give him another copy. If you let him back in even for a night you will have a hard time getting rid of him and a harder time replacing all that he will steal and/or trash. Hardest will be handling the feeling that you were violated by someone you love.

    You need to change teh locks. He likely has a copy somewhere, or he gave one to a friend. It isn't fun to think of this stuff. Also, any window you want to open or that has a broken latch needs to be made so it cannot open more than a couple of inchesor at all. If you have a window next to a sliding glass door or a door with a window near the lock/handle, make sure that you have those locked tight.
  15. mrsammler

    mrsammler Guest

    Yes and yes and yes about changing locks, locking all windows, etc. I can tell you from personal experience (and you can read about it in many posts here) that a difficult child will try to come back later that day/night or the next day or within the next few days to get back into the house. My sister's difficult child came back the next morning raising hell at the front door, demanding to be let back in to pick up something he *said* he had left in his room. He just wanted back in, of course, so that he could install himself in the house again and this time use the threat or reality of force to support his claim for remaining there. You can quickly undo all of the progress you made in evicting him if you let him back in "for just a minute" to "find something he left behind." Once we had made it clear (literally communicating through a closed and locked door) that we wouldn't let him back in, he demanded money to compensate for the thing left behind (his wallet, he claimed--"found" it later, of course), which my sister gave him, against my advice, just to "pay him off" and make him leave. My point is simply that the actual eviction is one thing, and the next couple of days are another: expect attempts to get back into the house, and be ready to deal with them effectively and without acquiescing even momentarily. If he does get back into the house, expect real mayhem the next time you try to evict him: with nothing to lose, difficult child can and will really tear things up, steal everything not forcibly kept from him, commit violence against you, and so on.
  16. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Ijust wanted to let you know I'm thinking about you. You have gotten a lot of good advice so I won't reiterate. Just to let youknow my difficult child said awful things to me about me not being her mom and hating me and wishing I would die, etc. She did everything she could to reject us as her family. I think finally now she understands what she gave up and is trying to fix it. I do hope that with a few more years behind him he realizes what you did for him. I believe he is scared but can't admit it. Perhaps time on his own will cause him to think more clearly.

    You are doing the right thing by protecting yourself and your home. My difficult child tried to break in several times after we kicked her out claiming she wanted to get some things she left behind.

  17. asldogs

    asldogs New Member

    My son and I just finished dinner together. His mood has drastically changed. He is now asking questions: will I be able to come back to take showers... my reply, no. I'm going to miss Waggs ("his" dog) are welcome to come visit him anytime I am home. He told me about his buddy's family and where they live. I'm wondering why they don't call me. I'm sure he painted a nasty picture of me. He says they live a few miles outside of town and he won't be able to come into town on his own. I again told him he would be invited to come home for dinner with me. I also reminded him that after he moves out, if he comes back through a window again, it would be illegal breaking and entering. He asked, you would call the cops? Yes, I would. His reply with a smirk on his face, "well that's just ridiculous!". I said, "Try it and find out." I asked if he wanted to take his bed... apparently this family has an extra room with a bed, so no. He asked, So I will never be allowed to come back? I replied, we will see. It's open for negotiation at a later date. I told him his mood seems to have changed and he appears a little more excited about this new opportunity? His reply, shrugged his shoulders saying some yes, some no. I was relieved to learn that he is going back into school tomorrow to work on Nova Net (making up failed credits) while I am an hour away working. He will only have from 2:30 -8;30pm alone in the house instead of the entire day. I also told him he needed to move out Wednesday evening. He argued a little saying I had given him until June 2, Thursday. I said plans have changed and you need to make the move Wed. He: why? because you work Thursday? Me: yes. Is this the "calm" before the storm?
  18. DazedandConfused

    DazedandConfused Active Member

    I just wanted to offer up some info on ASPD. As another poster mentioned, this is a diagnoses not given until after the age of 18. Also, another prerequisite is having the diagnoses of Conduct Disorder before the age of 18. ASPD is a very, very, grave diagnoses because few seek treatment. Why? Those with ASPD generally don't think that anything is wrong with them; those who are diagnosed with ASPD have developed repeated patterns of antisocial behavior, sometimes over years or decades as adults.

    I offer this information because your difficult child is still young and his behaviors NOW may not be his behaviors in the future. At least, I hope they are not.

    Nonetheless, you want him to move out and have given him a deadline. At this point, if you want to treat him as if he IS a ASPD, that is probably a good idea given the situation. But, as a diagnoses, it's just too early to tell.
  19. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member Staff Member

    I think he may find out it's not so much fun living somewhere else. Our difficult child went to live with a neighbor whose parents let her drink and smoke pot everyday. I had to endure reading her facebook telling everyone she had a new family. After six weeks it all wore off and she didn't want to be there anymore but wanted to come home. We said no, that she had to find a recovery program for her drinking/pot use. She found the sober house and moved in. She nows says she can't wait to come back home and realizes what she gave up.

    He needs a dose of reality and coming home for showers is not it.

  20. asldogs

    asldogs New Member

    I have been told by the psychiatric professionals and read the same information as you offer regarding ASPD. About 4 months ago my son did a psychiatric evaluation from the clinic where he was getting therapy. After he stole the laptops and I have been observing a lack of remorse in his behaviors, I decided he needed another evaluation. He had not had one since he was the age of 8. They gave him the Oppositional-Difiant Disorder and another conduct disorder (I'm drawing a blank on the name) plus his ADHD. They explained in the report as well as in person that they can not formally diagnose him with ASPD until he is 18 but that he was fitting the profile. I saw it, too. I see him going to that dark place gradually and I've done everything I know to do to keep him from going down that path. He doesn't think there is anything wrong with him, blames everyone else, doesn't need therapy, and displays no remorse for what he has done or said to me and others. It actually helped to get the diagnosis. Now I know it's not me. Now I know not to take anything he does or says personally. I am now a little more able to be emotionally detached... at least until he is out of the house. Then I will mourn, cry and worry for him. I don't know if he is a true ASPD or not... but he behaves like one and I am approaching him as if it is true with the hope it is not.