At My Witt's End

[Overwhelmed1]

Thank you Beta, I had a busy busy work day but was at my home alone and it was amazing!!!!
I still have my daughter and grandkids on my mind all the time but I have done good not calling.
She hasn't called me and I haven't heard anything bad so I am taking that as she has things under control.
I hope all is good with you.

 

[Beta]

I'm so glad you had that time of solitude yesterday. I find I need some every day.
I think you are correct in not calling your daughter, but I know how hard it is not to "check" on things and to take a "hands off" approach. Our son, Josh, was supposed to start a job on Monday, but he decided they weren't going to pay him enough and he would get more money collecting unemployment. It made me mad and I said something to him at first, but then I just decided to step back and let him make his own decisions. I don't know, maybe he was right to do that; maybe he will get more money that way. I was just thinking he would want to get out of the house and have the self-dignity of work, but I guess not.
I read one of your other posts on another thread, about one day your daughter was a sweet girl, playing soccer, modeling, being a good student...and then suddenly she was someone you didn't recognize. That is a painful thing to witness and to experience. Josh was once a sweet boy. Now he can be nice when he wants to, but I don't think it's from empathy towards others; I think its only because he wants something and wants to keep his options open. I don't think he even looks at people as having feelings and needs like he does.

Stay strong--you're doing so well. As far as your grandkids---that's so hard. All I can say about that is that God knows and cares for each of them even more than you do. Just keep praying for them. He is a kind and gracious God who delights in showing that and in being faithful. He will be faithful to you. If you keep stepping in, maybe you'll never get to see how faithful He can be. Our actions are based on a very limited perspective; He sees the beginning, the middle, and the end, and knows all the inward stuff going on. Hope this encourages you.

 

[Copabanana]

Dear Beta: I'm happy, always, when you check in.

he decided they weren't going to pay him enough and he would get more money collecting unemployment.

I'm mad at this too. But the thing is, this is a time of risk. Maybe Josh does not want to admit that he's afraid of the Coronavirus, and is being self-protective. Who knows?

I keep reading and hearing that those in low end jobs, which tend to be service, exposed to lots of people, are contracting this disease at a far greater rate.

I just decided to step back and let him make his own decisions.

Good job!

This happened to my own son:

one day your daughter was a sweet girl

Josh was once a sweet boy.

I think that new variables surface during late adolescence and young adulthood, that were not so much factors when they were younger. One, they no longer depend upon, and act from the structure, judgement and oversight that we have provided. Absent this, they are unmoored, lost. And until their own judgement kicks in wither through maturity or hard-knocks, they are the effect of poor choices, impulses and addictions. The other thing is that mental illness, if it is latent, can be triggered during late adolescence and early adulthood. The other thing is that they fight to emancipate from us psychologically. This fight can take very maladaptive and self-defeating and hurtful directions, as we know so well.

Take care.

 

[Overwhelmed1]

Thank you Beta. I am struggling so much with my decision not to send her any money. I don't know how she is getting by. Then to do it with this virus going around. I feel very bad and guilty.
I fight every minute of every day to keep from calling and sending money. I am hating myself right now. But I keep putting the phone down.
Thank you for the encouraging words.
I need to pray more and more....

 

[Copabanana]

I feel very bad and guilty.

You are not responsible for the conduct and decisions and thinking of another adult.

Perhaps your daughter evaluated your behavior, and decided that you would continue the gravy train forever. That she would never have to support herself or her children, that you because of your guilt, or love of her, or obligation or fear, would forever keep her boat afloat, and she would never, ever have to do it.

If that is the case, if she watched you forever taking responsibility, forever making decisions based upon fear, obligation and guilt, or FOG, you are responsible for part of this sad result.

You have a choice point here: You can decide that you will continue to enable her, continue to take care of her, because you can't bear to feel this pain.

While her choices are her responsibility, by deciding to take responsibility for her, you risk taking away incentive for her to change. You will vote against her ability to be a strong, powerful and responsible woman and mother. Remember the satisfaction that you have felt from taking control of your life and your home. This is what is at stake for her, as well.

I am writing this not to be hard on you but to back you up.

 

[Beta]

'm mad at this too. But the thing is, this is a time of risk. Maybe Josh does not want to admit that he's afraid of the Coronavirus, and is being self-protective. Who knows?

Well, that is one advantage to his not working--one less person exposing themselves to any potential illness. It's just hard seeing him sitting around all day doing nothing.

I think that new variables surface during late adolescence and young adulthood, that were not so much factors when they were younger. One, they no longer depend upon, and act from the structure, judgement and oversight that we have provided. Absent this, they are unmoored, lost. And until their own judgement kicks in wither through maturity or hard-knocks, they are the effect of poor choices, impulses and addictions. The other thing is that mental illness, if it is latent, can be triggered during late adolescence and early adulthood. The other thing is that they fight to emancipate from us psychologically. This fight can take very maladaptive and self-defeating and hurtful directions, as we know so well.

I agree. I have to say, things have gone much better with him than what we expected, although far from perfect. He generally cleans up after himself and keeps his room very clean. However, some of his reactions are puzzling. Here's an example: We were eating dinner the other night and he and my husband were talking sports, which is about the only way they "bond". So then I happened to ask if he would wash up the three plates, forks, knives, and a pot that needed washing. Right away, he got this angry look on his face. I left the room to do something for several minutes, but I could hear him carrying on to my husband (who was washing the dishes). He was saying something like, "If you don't want to do the dishes, just leave them and I'll probably do them, but I'm NOT going to be asked. I'm not some housemaid!" Despite all we've done for him and are doing, he was highly insulted when I asked him to wash the dishes, claiming that I was treating him like a housemaid. What...? He got mad way out of proportion to what the situation was.
So I'm not going to ask anymore; if he offers to do them, fine; but by the same token, I won't be going out of my way to do things for him either like I have been (buying a few special food items he likes, baking things he likes, etc.)

Thank you Beta. I am struggling so much with my decision not to send her any money. I don't know how she is getting by. Then to do it with this virus going around. I feel very bad and guilty.
I fight every minute of every day to keep from calling and sending money. I am hating myself right now. But I keep putting the phone down.
Thank you for the encouraging words.

You are not a bad person; good grief, from your description, it sounds like you have done a lot for both of your kids. Sometimes we do things for our kids because it makes US feel better, at least for the moment. But long-term, it's not doing them any good. When Josh was still out in Denver and I was anxious about him, sometimes I just had to tell myself, "Just for today, I'm not sending any money or reaching out to check on him." I literally had to take it day by day and leave it open-ended, just to curb the anxiety a little bit.It was like if I knew I COULD send money at some future time if my anxiety got too high, then I could relax about not sending money at that moment. I don't know if that makes any sense but it seemed to help me at the time. This whole thing is pretty much a day-by-day thing for all of us.
I think we have the illusion that we are responsible for saving them and if we don't DO SOMETHING, everything will go down the tube without us. It isn't true, but that's what I think we believe sometimes.

 

[RN0441]

I honestly think that adults that live with us should pitch in and help out without being asked.

Our son has really stepped up to the plate with all of this which he did not do before. I do have to remind him a lot but he is way better than ever before.

I tell him that we are three adults living together. He is only here so we can help him get on his feet so he can be on his own as soon as possible. For him it's when he gets his degree in another 1.5 years. As long as he is moving forward and pitching in around here we are all living in harmony. He knows that and so far things have been good most of the time and better as time goes on and he realizes our immovable boundaries.

I think this is very important for them as well as for us to enforce they don't think they can lay around and not help out. I would never do that again.

 

[Overwhelmed1]

My son has worked everyday this week since he started Tuesday. I'm hoping he doesn't screw it up. I am going to stay positive though. I know I am pretty relaxed until they come home from work.

Looking forward to my week off.

No word from my daughter. Guess that's OK.

It would have been nice to have some milestones with them past JR high. You know graduation, college, a wedding, new job, first home etc. Something to be proud of.

No sense in pondering over something that will never be.

Peace and Love all...

 

[Overwhelmed1]

I have been quiet the last week or so regarding my son moving out. Both of them are watching the P's and Q's at the moment.
I'm not changing my mind but was wondering if I should rock the boat or keep still for a little bit?
Let my son get settled in his job a couple weeks and then simple asked if they have had any luck finding a place.
I don't want them to think I have changed my mind but I would like to enjoy my week off without confrontation. Is this giving them mixed signals if I don't keep on them about moving every day?
Thanks for any thoughts you may have.

Peace and Love

 

[Copabanana]

To me these are very good questions, OW.

I'm not changing my mind but was wondering if I should rock the boat or keep still for a little bit?

I think believing the responsibility is yours to motivate them is incorrect. Moving is their obligation, if you serve them legally. You need not talk to them at all. The written notice does it for you.

Did you do the research about your legal requirements? If you do not put this in writing it does not exist. If you put it in writing, the obligation is on them, not you. It does not require you to speak. Personally, I would do what was required legally, and then, not speak. Speaking only invites abuse and confrontation.

Let my son get settled in his job a couple weeks and then simple asked if they have had any luck finding a place.

Again, why would you have this conversation?Their luck or efforts to find a place are their business, not yours. You are not responsible to prod or to help them. You are responsible only to take care of yourself and your space. Giving legal notice (in writing, according to your State's rules) to me is the thing to do.

I don't want them to think I have changed my mind but I would like to enjoy my week off without confrontation

The outward confrontation may not be happening but the internal worrying is happening. If you give notice legally you will be putting the responsibility on them to have this conversation and to act on it.

Is this giving them mixed signals if I don't keep on them about moving every day?

Again, all you need to do is give legal written notice. Then, that notice is the factor that is keeping them moving, not your voice, not you, not your nagging.

If you haven't done that, nothing exists to get them out. If it is informal and verbal, the only thing that could maybe get them out is prolonged arguing, the police, or a restraining order. Do you want that?

Good luck.

 

[Overwhelmed1]

Thanks for your thoughts Copa. I did look into the legal aspects and it isn't difficult but not cut and dry either.

 

[Copabanana]

it isn't difficult but not cut and dry either.

I think you need to serve them according to legal requirements. Until you do, they have the upper hand.

 

[JMom]

Thank you Beta. I am struggling so much with my decision not to send her any money. I don't know how she is getting by. Then to do it with this virus going around. I feel very bad and guilty.
I fight every minute of every day to keep from calling and sending money. I am hating myself right now. But I keep putting the phone down.
Thank you for the encouraging words.
I need to pray more and more....

You are teaching her to survive on her own. It's a great gift. Don't feel guilty for helping her launch imto being responsible for herself. You won't always be there to provide and she will need the skills to make it on her own. You're doing great, chin up!

 

[JMom]

OW,

WHY did you buy the book right now? It's such a hard read! Depressing, DON"T read it yet. LOL

 

[Overwhelmed1]

OW,

WHY did you buy the book right now? It's such a hard read! Depressing, DON"T read it yet. LOL

JMOM, I clicked on your link and seen it. It doesn't arrive until May.
I bought it to support you. You have been so good to me...
I wish I could write my story, it might show people they are not alone.
I always thought no one could have come close to having the issues I have with my kids. One reason I never went into detail.
It's like I didn't want others to hate my kids for what they have done to me. I love them and wanted others to love them too.
Does that make sense?
Not that I am happy that others share my pain, it is very heart breaking to know so many families struggle with the same issues and some cases worse, however it helps me understand better and gives me hope.
When you feel like you have tried everything with no success, you feel defeated and inadequate as a mother. doctors, counseling, medication, love, understanding, tough love, separation, tears, forgiveness, reuniting after long periods of time. It has been a very disturbing sequence of trial and error for me.
I am now back to separation again after two years of hope. She came to me after being in hiding for about 2 years and for a while it was great. About 6 months in, the same treatment from her towards me started all over.
I don't understand if she had a drug problem or mental issue, how you can contain your outbursts for that long of a period.
I know for a fact she does not drink or take any drug that isn't prescribed to her by the Dr she sees, however I am not happy with his drug of choice for her.
I am looking forward to reading your book and seeing the steps you took. It can't be any more depressing that the life I live right now and I am so sorry you had to go through this heartache....

Peace and Love

 

[Overwhelmed1]

This is the way it goes for me. Starting a weeks vacation going to relax and get myself together and in a better place.
Been a month and I have done good not contacting my daughter. I just got a text from her.
"Come join us for resurrection roast and egg hunt if you would like and tonight is Passover Communion."
Like nothing had happened.
I want to politely decline. I shouldn't ignore her right?

 

[Copabanana]

Come join us for resurrection roast and egg hunt if you would like and tonight is Passover Communion

This sounds like a very nice invitation in my view and appropriate. Do you think she is trying to insinuate herself again in your good graces, so as to continue the same terms in the relationship? How are you to know unless you have contact?

But that doesn't mean you have to go. You could call her and tell her that you have other plans, but appreciate so much the invitation. You don't have to tell her what your other plans are, even if you want to relax by yourself. But that would open the line of communication. It sounds like you wanted that.

I shouldn't ignore her right?

I may be forgetting something. I'm unclear why you want to ignore her. You missed her and the children, and were tremendously worried. You want to have a relationship with her, as far as I know. You want it to be a healthy relationship.

As far as accepting the invitation, I think the decision might rest in your confidence in yourself to set boundaries, to not react, to have strategies in place to exit, and to be in control of your expectations.

Maybe you could post a few of your fears, about the worst things that could happen, and maybe write why you think you should not go.

Maybe you don't want to see her at this point. Do you?

Anyway, I think this is a good thing, because you were so worried. Eventually you will have to face some contact, if you want a relationship with her and/or the children. The decision is yours to make about where and when and preparing yourself.

Your learning (and mine, too) is to learn to be healthy in relationships. By that it's learning that we are responsible to create the relationships we want. We do that by discovering what we want and what we need, and holding ourselves to that. Not letting other people define for us what our relationships will be. That way we can hold onto ourselves, and not lose touch with our wants and needs. That way we can leave if the situation is no longer serving us. This is doable.

 

[Overwhelmed1]

Yes, Copa I miss them and would love to see them. And I don't know what will happen. Obviously, I don't have a normal relationship with her. It may go good but then again given our history it may not. I did not call her. I texted her back and told her it sounded wonderful but I couldn't make it. I told them to have a great time and I loved them all.
This is the best I can do right now.
Remember, I am the one who keeps letting the same thing happen.
Thank you for your input Copa, it is always nice to hear from you.

Peace and Love

 

[Copabanana]

Remember, I am the one who keeps letting the same thing happen.

Your learning (and mine, too) is to learn to be healthy in relationships. We are learning that we are responsible to create the relationships we want. We do that by discovering and defining what we need, and holding ourselves to that. Not letting other people define for us by their behavior what our relationships will be, and then going along with the program.

That way we can hold onto ourselves, and not lose touch with our wants and needs. That way we can leave if the situation is no longer serving us. This is doable.

You have made tremendous progress in a very short time. I think you handled that invitation with your daughter just perfectly. A real win.

 

[Copabanana]

OW. You are way too hard on yourself. This is a process. You are doing it.