Can't give an inch...

[HeadlightsMom]

Lil -- Sadly, I relate. But, gladly, I support you!

I started to list off names to "Ditto", but then realized that this is such a great thread of sharing I pretty much "Ditto" every comment on here. Really. I'Tourette's Syndrome just so pervasive and predictable.

Cedar --- You said, though it hurts, it is a gift to see it for what it is. Thanks for stating it just that way, Cedar. It's true.

You ARE a normal mom, it is your child that is abnormal.

2much2recover -- Best quote of the day! We hear so much how our child is "abnormal". But how often does someone tell us we, the parents, are "normal"? Not nearly often enough. It's refreshing to hear.

Lil -- Your posts often strike me as very insightful. I appreciate your honesty, your wisdom and your strength. We are all with you and I wish for you a very good day and week.... Take care

 

[Jabberwockey]

Lil, and as far as Christmas gifts - why not consider cold weather camping gear - nothing would send a stronger message than that - if he gets kicked out of the shelter he would really be on the street! Also for long term planning how about an old one person camper on a cheaply rented lot - on a month by month basis.
That way if him and his friends destroy it - you can just get rid of it and really, really be done! (I never had to worry about my difficult child being homeless.)

He will be kicked out of the shelter next month. They have a 90 day program to help people get back on their feet. Beyond that, its If they have the room, and If the weather is bad, then maybe you can spend the night.

As far as giving him the cold weather gear, he would only sell it.

The cheapest camper you will find around here is still almost $1000 and there is no place that would rent a lot like that.

 

[BusynMember]

That's exactly what I thought. Good gear equals drug money. That's why they don't keep their things.

I'm not really Santa. I just play it in my house

 

[Tanya M]

Lil, I think if we could meet in the middle it would be perfect. I'm at the point I want to do nothing for my difficult child. Sometimes I feel like I must be a horrible mother because I don't want to help but then I remember all that I have done and I know I'm not horrible just tired of being let down.
Hugs to you!!

 

[Lil]

Sometimes I feel like I must be a horrible mother because I don't want to help but then I remember all that I have done and I know I'm not horrible just tired of being let down.

You're right. I sometimes just shake my head at the ridiculousness of my still wanting to do things for him! I know, I really, really, do know, that he's done terrible things to us, his parents! He stole from us over and over. He lied, over and over. So much and so many times. Sometimes I go over all these things and I'm mad...just SO mad! I just get angry all over again. But it never lasts. I kind of wish it would. I wish I could just stay mad and cold and not want to help.

But I don't. It doesn't last and I start thinking about what I'm going to do for him. Right now I go to Christmas. I have NO reason to do anything for him for Christmas. Last year he completely ruined Christmas. I kind of wish we'd have done the Vegas thing. But for various reasons that wasn't an option. I've bought a few gifts for friends, but that's it. I always do Christmas. Not this year. I haven't made candy. I haven't made breads and cookies. I haven't put up any decorations. We don't even have a tree! This is the first time in my life I haven't had a tree. Even when I was single and even when I wasn't going to be home for Christmas, I put up a tree! So there's no festivity going on at my house and still I'm wondering what to buy him. Because he's my son. Because it's Christmas.

I'm kind of tired of being so nice.

 

[Tanya M]

My difficult child has no ID so he's asked me once again to help, didn't want to but husband said we should, so that's what my difficult child is getting for Christmas, an ID to the tune of $65.00.

 

[2much2recover]

Think Lil, THINK - YOUR son HAS BECOME the type of person who lies and steals from his own parents!!!! I know that thought FORCED me to understand that there was something really wrong with my daughter. What kind of horrible person does this - YOUR CHILD DOES - AND WILL (and you are not alone in being a parent who does this lousy crap) ! And there is nothing that YOU CAN DO to prevent it. HE IS WHAT HE IS!!! Not of your making, not of your desire for him - BUT WHO HE IS! You would really be CRAZY to give him anything, anything AT ALL with the way things are going right now. This MAN who lies and steals from you NEEDS A REAL WAKE-UP CALL! He either will hear it or he won't. That is one reason I suggested camping gear (used, now that I understand he will sell it - but yet think even about that - you can't even GIVE him something for fear of him selling it???) The whole point of my suggestion was - giving camping stuff gives a HUGE message - WELL HERE YOU GO - SINCE YOU AREN'T LIKELY TO MAKE IT THROUGH THE HOMELESS PROGRAM, YOU ARE GOING TO NEED THIS! "You can screw up with the program there at the shelter (already 3 out of 5 warnings) but you ain't coming home"! The message is: Here is some stuff you will need to make it on the street because that seems to be where you are headed, and we told you, that you are not welcome back in OUR home!
As painful as it is - you must get through this and force change or all three of you are screwed in the foreseeable future.

 

[InsaneCdn]

I haven't made candy. I haven't made breads and cookies

If you love doing that stuff, do it anyway.
Does your area have an "adopt a senior" or "adopt a student" program?
Here... if you have nobody or not enough people to heap your goodies on, there are agencies that will link you up with somebody lonely who won't be having holidays at all. You can either contribute just stuff - baking, for example - or have them over for a meal. It brightens life for both sides.

Or donate the holiday goodies to Ronald MacDonald House, for the families that have to be around the hospital over the holidays.

 

[Lil]

You would really be CRAZY to give him anything, anything AT ALL with the way things are going right now.

2M2R - I know you mean well. I know your difficult child stole from you...I'm sure that colors your perceptions of the situation. Please remember that there is a matter of both age and severity to consider not to mention confessing wrongdoing and voicing remorse. Sincere? Maybe, maybe not. But the fact remains we have different situations.

I'm sure you do think I'm crazy...but I am not turning away from my 19 year old son completely. I think I've made that perfectly clear. Short stealing thousands or putting us in danger of physical harm, I can't really think of anything he could do that would make me do that. Yes. He did a terrible thing - I just said that. I've put him out of my house and he's not coming back. We don't give him any money. But I'm dammed if I'll tell him he can't take care of his own life and he's useless so why even try. Because when you say, "WELL HERE YOU GO - SINCE YOU AREN'T LIKELY TO MAKE IT THROUGH THE HOMELESS PROGRAM, YOU ARE GOING TO NEED THIS!" that's what you are saying. I choose to believe he CAN make it to mid-January and get himself a place after that. He's made it this long and he's gotten a job. IF he gets kicked out, THEN I'll give him a sleeping bag.

It's not like I'm planning on giving him a car for God's sake. I'm thinking more of a Subway gift card or a book.

If you love doing that stuff, do it anyway.

That's the thing. I miss it, but can't seem to get the ambition to do it...or the time. We have just been swamped. I spend more time wishing I could sleep than anything else.

 

[Lil]

2M2r - I tried to edit that...but waited too long. I hope you aren't offended. I know I seem too wishy-washy to you about this. I just ... well I'm not where some of you are. That's all.

Many of you have been dealing with these things longer. I'm sure you weren't all so sure of yourselves in the beginning.

I guess, I just still have hope that something might change.

 

[2much2recover]

Lil, please understand that in no way am I saying that because my daughter is a sociopath I think your son it too. I am in no way able or qualified to make that diagnosis. I am, however going to call you out on that fact that sometimes when you are angry (rightfully so) you will say that you son is a liar and a thief. But if someone else says it, you get highly defensive. Your son being one or the other or both is not a reflection on you or how you raised him period. I will say it again, he is whatever he is - and that is something that you seem to have a hard time trying to accept. It could be the drugs that make him lie/steal it could be immaturity or he could have some yet undiagnosed mental health problem or personality disorder. Right now it is an unknown.

Short stealing thousands or putting us in danger of physical harm, I can't really think of anything he could do that would make me do that. Yes. He did a terrible thing - I just said that.

You say short of these 2 ways of doing you harm, you are not willing to WHAT? What about all the pain and heartbreak he is causing you up until even right now? That is both emotional and mental abuse no matter how you dice it. And as much as you would not like to see yourself a victim of that the facts (from what you, yourself has written) you are - and of course it both pains you and terrifies you at the same time. I don't think there is anything that I did say that says turn him away - end of it! What I am saying, again only by going what you are posting, that things are not looking good about things turning out the way you hope they will. Also I am trying to help you to gather your courage and strength to say no to your son - if the need arises. Why did I bring up the camping stuff? Odds are unless you let him back in he's going to need it. (and to scare the holy crap out of him that this time gosh darn it you mean it!) But then again maybe you will let him back in because you might feel more comfortable having a lying thief live with you, than to not live with you, because it makes you feel like a lousy parent (notice I said makes you feel, I DO NO THINK YOU ARE A BAD PARENT AT ALL)
From the way you post to me, it sounds like you think I am trying to push my situation onto you. I am not doing that - the one thing we share is that we are mothers of only children who have problems. What I am trying to do is to shine light in to this dark period of your life and all I get back is - please, please let me stay in the dark. It's your monkey, it's your circus - run it however you want to because it matters not to me what your choices are.

Lil, I have been through it all with my daughter an it took me a very long time to accept that she is what she is - well into her 30's. I am in no position to judge you or your son. Just the facts mam!

 

[2much2recover]

Oh and another thing - since it's the time of giving, why not make a donation to the shelter in you son's name?

 

[Albatross]

But I just SO don't understand it. I want to understand it! More than anything else I want to understand this behavior. Maybe then I'd be able to come to terms with not being able to be a "normal" mom who can give her kid a gift, or a helping hand, without having it be an opening to being taken advantage of.

I sure do understand exactly how you feel right now, Lil and Jabber. husband and I had an unexpected visit with easy child (age 26) this weekend, just a chance to sit and chat for a little bit and catch up on each others' lives. After we left, husband and I talked about how...NICE it is, to just be able to TALK to the child we raised, to see how she's living her life and hear her joy and frustration and all the rest of it and know that our job is done; she just wants to share her news with us, nothing more. She knows if she got into a bind she couldn't solve on her own she could come to us for help. We know we could help her with what she needed and that would be the end of it. It would be a loving exchange.

With difficult child there's so much...gamesmanship involved. Every word, every gesture, every act of kindness must be carefully evaluated before extending ANYTHING, to evaluate the potential for him using it negatively. It's awful. I get to the point where I dread every exchange I have with him.

 

[Tanya M]

With difficult child there's so much...gamesmanship involved. Every word, every gesture, every act of kindness must be carefully evaluated before extending ANYTHING, to evaluate the potential for him using it negatively. It's awful. I get to the point where I dread every exchange I have with him.

I can so relate to this. It's like a chess game where you have to think 5 moves ahead.

 

[BusynMember]

Lil, this isn't necessarily for our eyes, but for your thoughts. How did your son end up this way? How can you understand him? I think I may have one way...

To understand your son better, if indeed you want to explore, you may want to think about his biological father. I don't remember your mentioning him. Although Jabby is a wonderful husband and I'm sure a fantastic father figure, he is not part of your son's DNA. You seem too balanced to be the person who has made your difficult child so dysfunctional. But the answer may lie with his sperm donor.

In the adoption world, we are always shocked at how much our children are like their birthparents, even if they never knew them for even a day. DNA is huge in the way people are formed. I have been told wild stories from how some of the adopted children had the same handwriting as their birthmother or birthfather to how the adopted child had the same mannerisms and ticky way of getting annoyed easily...and physically showing it in the same way.

I am glad Julie, Jumper and Sonic had some good DNA personality traits. I am unfortunate that 37 has inherited heavily from my dysfunctional DNA relatives. Now the environment DID help as he is not as severe as they are. But it's there.

 

[HeadlightsMom]

Lil --- Just read these new posts since I last wrote and I sure do have you on my heart right now. You made some very good points. Though our difficult child's are so similar (in many ways), they are all at different stages of "whatever-this-difficult child-thing-ultimately-is". It's such a hard thing finding any balance -- to have them in our lives or not? For some parents, it's either one or the other. For other parents, it's not a mutually exclusive proposition.....just one with BIG boundaries (of your choosing).

Ultimately, these choices are yours (and all of ours about our difficult child's) -- difficult child in, out, or a little of both. You sound like you have great integrity, so I support you in doing whatever YOU need to do for YOU. Yes, your difficult child matters. But right now my heart is with you! And my heart will always remain in support of you.

MWM -- Some time ago you and I chatted about our adopted difficult child's, remember? Your comments, above, are spot on about DNA. If you recall, I speak from experiencing knowing our adopted difficult child's bio family and also, as an adoptee myself, my own bio family. The similarities are uncanny for both difficult child's bio fam and my bio fam. It explains much.

But it doesn't explain everything. There's Nature, there's Nurture, there's Free Will. It's a tripod. While Nature is the foundation (it happens first, chronologically, and underlies all else), the others play huge roles. In today's world, Free Will is conveniently skipped over. But Free Will is huge -- despite bio tendencies, Free Will gives us the power to REcreate our lives (within whatever range biology gives us).

Lil ---- Catch me up here... Your difficult child is from another father and you are married to Jabber? Did I get that right?

 

[BusynMember]

HLM, yes, there are all three. I do think DNA is the strongest. It's not a scientific opinion, of course, just what I've seen with the ladies and adoptees in my large adoption group. I think nurture is secondary...certainly though it helps not to live in chaos if you have difficult child tendencies. And, yes, our difficult children can decide to be different people from their birth families once they meet them. I believe Nancy's daughter has made that choice (correct me if I'm wrong, Nancy. Seems difficult child is doing really well of late!). Each difficult child has a different ability to change, however.

This is why I never, even in secret, blame the hardworking, desperate, loving parents for how their difficult children became difficult children. I can't blame anybody for marrying a difficult child or getting pregnant by a difficult child boyfriend at...what?....age 15? 18? Even 22? Sometimes people don't know a man is a difficult child until much later on too. Yet if a child is born through that union, the child is forever 50% that person. Unless we have starved, beaten, belittled or deprived our children, I never ever ever blame somebody for how a child turns out. I've even known two very good people who had a difficult child...unexplainable...maybe some DNA from the past.

I feel stupid for having chosen to have a child knowing my own DNA pool, but I was doing what everyone does...hoping my child didn't get the DNA curse. And, truthfully, when I Skype with my grandson, like I have been doing every week, he is such a well adjusted, sweet, bright, engaging child that I'm not as sorry as I used to be that I brought a child into this world. 37 has his flaws, but he's done a great job with Little 37 and I hope to see my grandson soon. 37 has offered to pay for transportation. Now...we'll see if he keeps that promise....

 

[HeadlightsMom]

MWM -- I absolutely agree with you that DNA/Nature is the strongest "given". And Free Will is the strongest "variable". Nature remains what it is (unless undergoing a recombinant DNA procedure! LOL!). Nurture remains what it is in our childhood -- very little we can do about it. Free Will, though.......there's a LOT we can do with that one in our adulthood! And I like knowing I have a source of empowerment to affect my life!

Hope everything goes well with your difficult child....so glad to hear he's doing such a great job with your grandson!

 

[Lil]

From the way you post to me, it sounds like you think I am trying to push my situation onto you. I am not doing that - the one thing we share is that we are mothers of only children who have problems. What I am trying to do is to shine light in to this dark period of your life and all I get back is - please, please let me stay in the dark. It's your monkey, it's your circus - run it however you want to because it matters not to me what your choices are.

Well I think that the problem with communicating in writing is that sometimes people don't make themselves clear and sometimes things strike you in ways they wouldn't in person. I don't think that. I do think that everyone's own situation tends to color the way they see others. I'm not in the dark. I'm not in denial. I know perfectly well what my son is and has done. I simply have hope that he won't be the same person at 25 that he is at 19. People change. I believe he's quite capable of changing...if he chooses.

THIS is what I took exception to:

You would really be CRAZY to give him anything, anything AT ALL with the way things are going right now.

I started this thread because I hate the lack of trust. It sucks that I can't just give my kid a helping hand without it opening the floodgates to more expectation and reliance. But, otherwise things are actually not going so bad. Yes...one more write up and he's out, but J-1 got kicked out so he isn't there as often, he finally got a job, and he seems to be taking that more seriously. He's already been told...by me...that if he gets kicked out he'll not be coming home. As I said, at this point, I still have hope.

So again, I did not mean to offend.

To understand your son better, if indeed you want to explore, you may want to think about his biological father. I don't remember your mentioning him. Although Jabby is a wonderful husband and I'm sure a fantastic father figure, he is not part of your son's DNA. You seem too balanced to be the person who has made your difficult child so dysfunctional. But the answer may lie with his sperm donor.

Yes...there's no doubt that there's too much nature over nurture there. He's very like his biodad in a lot of ways, much more intelligent, but still there are a lot of things that remind me and have since he was very little. Jabber is a wonderful husband and father and a truly good and honorable man. I so wish his example had rubbed off a little more.

You sound like you have great integrity, so I support you in doing whatever YOU need to do for YOU. Yes, your difficult child matters. But right now my heart is with you! And my heart will always remain in support of you.

I just don't even know what to say to that except... That was so sweet. Thank you.

Lil ---- Catch me up here... Your difficult child is from another father and you are married to Jabber? Did I get that right?

Right. I separated from the ex when my son was about seven months old. Finally divorced about a year later. Married Jabber right after his 5th birthday (literally - 3 days after). The ex never showed his face again after that and Jabber adopted him when he was 7. Ex died soon after.

I can't blame anybody for marrying a difficult child or getting pregnant by a difficult child boyfriend at...what?....age 15? 18? Even 22?

How about 30? Yeah. Idiot. Living proof that the biological clock can make an otherwise intelligent woman do incredibly stupid things. I wanted to get married and have babies and he said and did all the right things. Told me all his difficult child past...and all the wonderful things he'd done too...and I married him so fast I didn't realize all the bad stuff was true, but all the good stuff was lies. Would have left him nine months later...unfortunately, I'd gotten pregnant two months before that.

I hope to see my grandson soon. 37 has offered to pay for transportation. Now...we'll see if he keeps that promise.

That is wonderful news! Have you seen him much before this? I got the impression that you hadn't. Oh I do hope you get to!

So he called in the offer to drive him to work tonight. I didn't mind. After all, it's less than 2 1/2 miles from my house to the shelter to his workplace. I even grabbed some leftovers...but he didn't need them, he'd made arrangements to take some left-over pizza from the shelter for his lunch. He griped a little about the walk home at 4 a.m...I told him "tough"...and made sure he knew that, while I might occasionally give him a ride when it's pouring rain, not to expect it on a regular basis. Next time he asks, unless it is pouring down rain or snow, I'm going to have to say no for sure so he doesn't get too confident.

Right now I have my fingers crossed and that's as good as it gets I suppose.

 

[BusynMember]

Lil, very little until I mentioned Skype. 37 likes the idea and I am getting to know my GS this way. Hopefully 37 will make good his promise to pay my way (embarassingly I can't afford the fare) so I can visit the little guy. Of course...until he really does it, I can't know for sure that he will. But, as you know, we can hope and pray and I am.