Can't give an inch...

[Lil]

I know that in the past I have "enabled". I was the softy. I was the one who said, "Oh, let him go it's fine. Let him keep the car. The boy needs his phone. A teenager needs pocket money." I should have been tougher. I know that.

Have to done too much for him? Maybe. My mind keeps going back to him as a toddler. By about age two, he had the BEST table manners! Everyone who ate with him commented on that. I suspect the reason was because I fed him 90% of the time until he was really too old to be fed. But back then I was single and it was so much easier to feed him and keep him clean than it was to let him do it himself and then have to bathe him afterwards. So yeah...I was helping myself...but in the end he learned and learned to do it properly and neatly (although I never could get him to hold his fork right to this day).

But you know, I never wanted to do everything for him forever. Sure, there were times it was just easier to do it myself. Why make him load the dishwasher when I could do it twice as fast and correctly? (Yes...there is a proper way to load a dishwasher!) Why make him do his own laundry when it was just as easy to throw it in with ours? But I wanted him to LEARN to do it himself! I showed him how to use the washer. I showed him how to cook (at least some things) and offered to teach him over and over how to cook things he likes to eat. I don't want him to be 30 and unable to unplug a toilet or fill out a 1040 EZ, so if he asked I'd show him...ONCE. I don't mind teaching as long as he learns.

Part of my problem is he really is so young! Yes, I know, 18 year olds join the military and die for their country...but they are babies! I may be 51 now, but I remember being 19 and I was a KID. There is no way I could imagine still doing things for him at 37...or 27...or even 21. But now? He's still a teenager. In my mind, still a kid. Getting past that is definitely part of my struggle.

 

[Tiredof33]

I was, am still, a softie. Always a big giver and I have met plenty of big takers to take advantage of it. Over the years I have been scr**ed over enough to learn not everyone plays nice!

I taught mine to do laundry and clean his room from a very early age. Once the novelty wore off it was a constant fight.

There are no right or wrong answers with these personality types. What works with one will not work another.

I just know with mine, I would still have him and girlfriend living on my sofa, eating my food, unemployed and STILL finding money to go to concerts and party!

It is extremely difficult to give to others (especially this time of the year) when I am not giving anything to one of the people I love most in the world. Mine would just quit AGAIN and we would be back at square one. Actually, I think he is still there!

As others have posted, any time I have tried to help mine it has cost much more money and trouble than I had ever thought it would. Just the simple act of loaning him my cell phone for a few weeks cost me over $1000. I have spent enough money on him to have attended one of the Ivy League colleges!

It is so vey difficult to have a child like this, I was a single parent too. Life just isn't fair. But always keep in the back of your mind that you have a life too, and as I finally learned, all of my helping has done nothing.
(((hugs)))

 

[2much2recover]

I was, am still, a softie. Always a big giver and I have met plenty of big takers to take advantage of it. Over the years I have been scr**ed over enough to learn not everyone plays nice!

That is so me - and I am therapy to find out how to toughen up!

 

[in a daze]

Guilty too on the enabling! But not in the last two years.

 

[BusynMember]

Because they are still relatively young at eighteen (although I tend to think of my kids as almost adults at sixteen), I feel it is most effective to crack down on failure-to-launch young people at that age rather than suddenly finding yourself with a thirty year old on drugs, homeless, and unable to take care of himself. I started to force my kids to get their own part time job, their own money, and take responsibility for some of the car costs and other things by sixteen. I do not think I was a "tough" mom. If anything, I once heard Scott (the one who left home) talking to a friend on the phone, when there were still phonecalls...lol, and he was saying, "My mom is too soft. I mean, she's nice, but she's TOO soft." I did not discipline a lot. But I insisted they do the things that are necessary for adult growth as they are going to need them.

My kids got away with a lot, but they could not slack off. I did not want them to be unable to face the world as adults and the world expects that by eighteen.

All people are different, but both Sonic (even with his autism) and Jumper were very capable of taking care of their own needs, without asking us for money, by seventeen. We encouraged independence. Julie grew up after she quit drug use, which was nineteen. Now not saying she became a mature adult that fast, but she very slowly saw that she would have to take responsibility for her own material needs and she and her boyfriend, who was struggling himself with growing up, moved in with his mother, but paid rent and worked (not the best jobs at first, but they did) and they grew up later, but they did grow up. 37 has worked except for the five years he was too mentally ill to do ANYTHING, including partying. He was on Disability. He is still emotionally young, but he has a really good job. He bought his first house in his later twenties, after he got married and nobody gave him a car, insurance, gas money etc.

Eighteen is not old, but it's not really young either. It is a time when children evolve into the adults they will be. Most eighteen year olds are working full time, in college, or in the service. They are finding their way. We help them if they are trying, of course. But eighteen is not so young that most are not working or taking money from Dad and Mom 100%. At t he very least, all eighteen year olds, other than the severely mentally ill, are capable of an EASY full time job, like McDonalds, paying some small rent, and staying out of legal trouble. I personally don't feel that is too much to ask of our eighteen/nineteen year old difficult children.

I saw both 37 and Julie as very young for their ages, for different reasons and felt it was even more necessary to help them grow up by not making it so easy for them that they never grew up. I felt horrible saying "no" to either of them. I did help 37 A LOT when he was obviously mentally ill, but I also insisted he go for help or I would NOT help. He did get help and he got better. He has never been that sick again.

Lil, I love your k ind, sweet, caring heart. But as long as you think of eighteen as a baby, which is far from the truth, it will be harder to help your precious son to learn how to be a man. And society will not think of him as a baby. It will take him time to grow up. They all grow up at their own pace. But I feel he does need a shove and that a shove is actually a kindness. Kids who do not really want to grow up do not grow up if they don't have to.

Again, your heart is pure and kind. Your mama bear is in the right place. The problem is, you see him as a baby, but society sees him as a grown man, right or wrong. Eighteen can be a confusing age. It is on the edge of letting go of childhood and turning into the fine men and women they will be. And, in my own opinion, which could very well be wrong for YOU (we are all so very different), it is best to help them move along, even if we cry behind closed doors. And I have.

Merry Christmas to you and Jabby and your precious son. I hope all goes well.

 

[2much2recover]

Lil, I love your k ind, sweet, caring heart. But as long as you think of eighteen as a baby, which is far from the truth, it will be harder to help your precious son to learn how to be a man. And society will not think of him as a baby. It will take him time to grow up. They all grow up at their own pace. But I feel he does need a shove and that a shove is actually a kindness. Kids who do not really want to grow up do not grow up if they don't have to.
Again, your heart is pure and kind. Your mama bear is in the right place. The problem is, you see him as a baby, but society sees him as a grown man, right or wrong. Eighteen can be a confusing age. It is on the edge of letting go of childhood and turning into the fine men and women they will be. And, in my own opinion, which could very well be wrong for YOU (we are all so very different), it is best to help them move along, even if we cry behind closed doors. And I have.

I agree with what you are saying here. The other big elephant in the room is that hes has both lied and stolen from you which in my opinion needs to be taken seriously - which you have by kicking him out. But now that you have made that step, you need to back off and see what he is capable of doing for himself. Lil, sorry to say but there is definitely a "fixer" in you and that is still a hump in your own growth that you have to get over and until you do your difficult child will continue to be able to pull things over on you. How will you ever know what a kind of man he will become if you don't give HIM the chance to show what a man he can be. And maybe that is your fear, if you don't control everything he may not become one at all. Which is nonsense. Time to take the training wheels off of his manhood, and let him fall, bruises and all and watch him pull HIMSELF back up. No matter how much effort you give to trying to make him into a man by making his road easier, he can not grow into a man if you can't take off the training wheels by stopping the "fixing everything for him" and definitely that means YOUR "poor baby" feeling you have for him. If you think of it that way, how would you, yourself feel if someone constantly ran to you aid because they had it in their mind that you were a failure as a human being. Of course he fails at what you ask of him, it's easier to stay the child you want him to be that to stand up an become his own man. I think that the "fixing" only encourages him to remain a child.

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

And we also need to feel ok about enjoying our own lives even if our grown kids are struggling.

This is especially hard for me. As we have posted about our childhoods on another thread, I realize one of the keys to the intense conflict I feel around the issue of detachment is that I do not want to think or behave toward my children as my mother has.

Maybe working through those feelings will ease the pain of that conflict.

Often, like me, his progress is two steps forward and 10 back, and he continues
to make what I believe are bad decisions for his own life, but again, I am
reminded that it is HIS LIFE, not my life, and I have no magic or crystal ball to
see his future.

I like the way you see both yourself and your child as humans, as journeyers facing and succumbing to or overcoming individual and ongoing challenge. This is an important piece. We are only the mothers, with a mother's responsibility and wisdom while our children are too young to choose for and protect and defend themselves. We do have our own journeys to make, our own challenges to meet.

Cedar

 

[pasajes4]

I honestly believe that there are people who are who they are no matter what we do or do not do for them. My son is one of them. I can bend over backwards to help him or do nothing for him and the outcome will be the same. The question is what part in his life do I want to have.

 

[Lil]

But as long as you think of eighteen as a baby, which is far from the truth, it will be harder to help your precious son to learn how to be a man.

Please understand when I say a teen is a "baby" I don't mean "infant incapable of taking care of themselves", so much as "person with no (or very little) experience with how the world works".

Lil, sorry to say but there is definitely a "fixer" in you

LOL Don't be sorry. There is definitely a "fixer" in me big time! I recognize and admit it.

And maybe that is your fear, if you don't control everything he may not become one at all. Which is nonsense.

I don't think that's it really. Of course he'll be a man. But what kind of man? Will he be a decent, honest, honorable person? At the moment, I don't see that happening and it breaks my heart. I want so badly to have my son be someone I can be proud of...hell, I'll settle for not ashamed of.

Truthfully, I don't see why people keep saying I want to control everything. I'd love people to quote the things I say that makes it sound like that. I admit to being a fixer. I admit to being a bit of a control freak about some things. Hell, I rearrange the ornaments on the church's Christmas trees when everyone is gone. But I don't want to control his life. I never have. I don't care what he does for a living. I don't care if he doesn't go to college. I don't care where he lives (though I'd hope it was somewhere safe instead of a ghetto). I simply want him to be a normal, healthy, happy, honest and self-sufficient person. That's all. Would I like him to go to college, get a good job, hang out with decent people, maybe get married in a few years and have kids and come to visit on Sundays with the whole family? Sure. Would I like him to dress less slobby and take care of himself? Sure. But all I want, all I really want for the rest of my life, is for him to grow the hell up and be a whole person, a worthwhile person.

I have never, ever, tried to make him into some kind of clone of us. He wanted to dress in black and never cut his hair? Fine. He never wanted to be in sports? Fine. He wanted to take German in high school, which is useless, instead of Spanish, which is useful? Fine. We gave him tons of freedom to be what he wanted to be and do what he wanted to do. All we ever asked was that whatever he do, he do to the best of his ability...and hoped and prayed some of our morals rubbed off.

Of course he fails at what you ask of him, it's easier to stay the child you want him to be that to stand up an become his own man.

Same thing. Please someone tell me what I'm saying that gives ANYONE ...much less ALL of you the impression I WANT him to stay a child? That's the ABSOLUTE LAST THING I WANT! Seriously, I've been telling him to grow the hell up for the last three years! I am absolutely serious when I say if I could snap my fingers and have him be 30 years old with a job, a mortgage and a car payment I would go for it (not that I'm anxious to be 11 years older). Then I could finally not have to think about it anymore.

 

[BusynMember]

LOL...I get that impression too, Lil, and am trying hard to figure out why. Maybe it's because you contradict Jabby? Maybe because you help him too much and seem to think that this somehow WILL help him...maybe I just get the FEELING that yout think if you keep him from the elements and buy him lunch that he will eventually grow up?

I think for me it's just that you plain expect so little of him. At least, that is how I see it. And you overly worry about things you can't control, as if you WANT to control them, like the J's going to his shelter. In a way, to me it sounds like you are too complacent and don't see what is happening. But that doesn't equal a control freak, does it?

In the end, I think it all boils down to you are overly engaged in every move he makes in his dysfunctional life and worry about who he associates with and I was more able to let go. Of course, I had more than one kid too. I think that's big with many moms here who h ave only children. For one thing, you can't see how a regular child develops into an adult if you only have one kid. Also, one child gives us no other kids to interact with and distract ourselves with.

I knew i'd never give birth after 37. I was too afraid of my DNA pool. But I definitely felt I wanted many kids, so we adopted them. I am forever grateful. 37 can be a very disappointing adult child. At those times, it's easy to turn my focus to Jumper, Julie or Sonic (and grandkids).

I hope you aren't angry. I really LIKE you AND your husband. I am NOT criticizing what you do. In fact, I get it. I just did it differently, for whatever reason.

 

[Lil]

Not angry. The big red letters was just to get someone to answer me! I just don't see it...I can't imagine why ANYONE would think I want him to stay a kid when the ONLY thing I want is for him to GROW UP!

I want to be able to not think about whether he has shelter or food. I want to be able to trust him to dog-sit without fear he'll let them starve to death or steal all our stuff if he has a key to the house. I want to be able to fly to Italy for a month and not even get a text from him because he's living his own life and doesn't need a damn thing from me! That's what I want. I want him to be a grown-up with grown-up responsibilities he can handle all by himself!

And I really don't want to be judged as holding him back somehow because I buy him a freaking hamburger on occasion.

 

[pasajes4]

I think the reason that people believe that you want him to stay a child, is that even though you say you want him to grow up, in some ways you want him to depend on you for things he can and should do for himself. I think that it comes from a place of fear. If you don't do these things for him, something bad will happen to him. That is the one thing you could not face. It is the same fear that all of us have faced to one degree or another. For mothers of only children it is much stronger. I continue to struggle with my fears vs. the need to let mine fail in order to succeed.

 

[Lil]

in some ways you want him to depend on you for things he can and should do for himself

See, this is exactly what I mean. What have I ever said to make people think I want him to depend on me? No. I don't. I don't want him to call me for a ride. I don't want him to tell me he has nothing to eat. I don't want him to ask for money or cigarettes or a stick of gum! I want him to do all those things for himself!

I'm sure he thinks of us (specifically me) first when he needs something. I don't want to be his first thought. I don't mind occasionally doing things for him. But, I don't want that to be ongoing forever!

I want him to call to tell me he's had a great day. I want him to call to see how the family is. I want him to come over and visit and have dinner because he wants to...not because he thinks he'll get something out of it. And yes, I want him to call if he's in a real jam and has no other place to turn...because that's what family is for...but not just because he doesn't want to grow up and be responsible for himself.

 

[BusynMember]

I think it's that you do them when he asks. Those are things that, in my opinion, should be ignored. He certainly can find food. He doesn't need cigarettes. Horrible habit and expensive and he can't afford it. If he wants a ride, oh well. He can have all these things if he stops the weed and whatever else is going on and gets a job.

I know that's what I think. If I want my son to grow up then I stop doing those things for him that he needs to learn to do for himself. Now I used to sometimes bring 37 food when he lived in motels. Rides? No. Cigarettes...all of my kids know better and none smoke. The food was never food he asked for. It was spontaneous on my part. If he wanted to get somewhere...oh, well.

Julie had the same experience, although she moved in with her brother. This brother can be and is no longer in any of our lives and was rigid and demanding. She got nothing from him. Not a stick of gum. Not a ride anywhere. There was no internet then so she walked store to store to fill out job applications. Once s he was hired, she walked to and from work, regardless of the weather as her brother worked himself, long hours, and had no sympathy for her lifestyle. He was simply offering her a roof over her head if she met his strict conditions. Much stricter than us...he never had a softhearted moment.

So when I read that you do stuff for him because he calls and whines for it, or doesn't whine and just asks for it, and it's not necessary, to me, in MY mind (which could be all wrong...we all have differing ideas) you are doing things for him that YOU want to do because you feel less guilty. They do not send him a message that he is truly on his own.

I think tough love works and that's because it did! I saw it work!

In a way, I'm glad I never had the means to pay rent for my kids or buy them cars or pay for their toys. Their father had a decent job but not a lot of money, until he inherited money much later on. Therefore, they had every advantage any kids have, but nothing more. They were spoiled a bit with toys and stuff, but it was never over-the-top. A car was never on the table. It was not affordable. Them not pitching in for their own gas and their share of our insurance was not on the table. We COULD have done it, at a tremendous cost, but we DIDN'T do it because, above all else, I, in particular, valued independency.

Now w hen Jumper is home from school and asks me to go get her a can of soda or can I put some gas in the car, hubby and I almost always say "yes." Why? She is a good girl, she is respectful, hardworking, in full time college and getting decent grades (although she has always struggled with learning disablities) and she is definitely not childlike in her thinking. There is no need to not spoil her a bit. It won't stop her from growing up. She IS growing up.

But I think failure-to=launch kids take advantage of our liking of spoiling them and doing things for them and they never learn to do them themselves. We have difficult children here who are 35-40 and still never held a steady job. 37 at least has a good job, house, car and pays child support.

I guess that's my own personal point of view...that it's not good to do stuff that grown kids who live in shelters need to do alone.

Again, hope you're not offended. I do tend to say what I feel and hope it doesn't come off as rude or anything

 

[Lil]

Oh MWM, I think you've been bending over backwards to not offend... and I really appreciate it.

You aren't wrong. (insert thoughtful look here) I can see your point of view. I'm not without some of the same thinking. He is working now. Get's paid for two days tonight...which galled him something awful because he won't be able to cash it until Friday. He is walking to work. I've given him two rides...once I offered and once he asked. At $8.50 an hour he will have a time saving up for an apartment, but we don't intend to chip in. He doesn't have a car and we don't intend to give him one. Yes...we've taken him to McDonalds a time or two...The cigarettes...well, until Thanksgiving when we quit, we were smokers. It just seemed kind of hypocritical to say, "Quit".

But I guess that's what started this whole thread. That I'd love to be able to be with my son like you are with Jumper. But giving him a burger one day tends to lead to him asked two days later. It's both annoying and disheartening.

 

[BusynMember]

Lil, I can't do that to 37 either. Even though he has a good job, he always claims he is poor and if you give him an inch, he takes a mile. Or ten miles. He is very difficult to work with. He always has been. I know how you feel and I also am so sad for a kindhearted woman like you (and I truly, honestly do feel you are a sweet, kind person) that you have no easy child to kind of take the edge off. It is very hard not to feel your goodness in every post you type.

I hope you and Jabby are having a nice holiday with his family

 

[Lil]

MWM :

Thank you so much.

May you...and all who see this...have a peaceful Christmas day.