Detaching "WITH LOVE"?

[toughlovin]

I think we can all agree that both environmental and genetic factors make up who we are.

I do think our mental health and substance abuse systems need a lot of work and I would not want society to throw up their hands and say there is no point, it is just genetics. I dont think that is what is happening, in fact I sometimes think that issues that are seen as genetic get more support and funding than other issues but that is a side issue.

However I think traditionally society has been on the side of environment and good parenting is what matters and so parents of difficult children of all types are often seen as the cause of the problem. At one time they thought schizophrenia was all due to bad mothering! And I think many of us went into parenting thinking that if we were good parents we would have good kids.... and many many people still believe that. I might have believed that if both my kids had been easy and well behaved... if my daughter had been my only child I might have been one of those smug parents.

So it came as a bit of a surprise and revelation to me when my son was so difficult and had behavioral issues... and darn it could not follow the rules from an early age. I did everything I could and tried everything to raise him into a healthy productive adult and yet in spite of my best efforts he is still a mess. And yes I made mistakes and I would love to have a do over and try again with what i know now (I might move into the wilderness with no outside influences on him though!).

However I am not convinced that a do over would help all that much in reality. I do believe he is the way he is a lot because of his wiring.... I think he is very impulsive, I do not think he is resiliant emotionally, he struggles with depression, he does not think before he acts, and I am convinced he has that genetic predisposition towards addiction. I think all of those factors make up who he is.... and it may be that his upbringing (which was a loving two parent home who was financially stable) helped him get along as well as he did. It is hard to know what he would have been like in a different environment.

I think SuZir why there is reactions to your posts is it sounds like you are making the argument we have all heard so much which is the environment is what matters... and if our kids are screwed up it must be because of their environment. I dont think that is what you actually mean but it sounds like what you are saying.

And it is very interesting to me that in many treatment environments and in my parents alanon group a larger percentage of kids are adopted, way more than the percentage of kids adopted overall. I think there is pretty clear evidence that kids who are adopted are more likely to have certain kinds of issues, including substance abuse. I think there are probably several reasons for this....and I think it is something those of us on this board who are adoptive parents are very aware of.

TL


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[SuZir]

I think SuZir why there is reactions to your posts is it sounds like you are making the argument we have all heard so much which is the environment is what matters... and if our kids are screwed up it must be because of their environment. I dont think that is what you actually mean but it sounds like what you are saying.

My argument is more that: "Yes, genetics give you some risks, some outer limits of what you can or cannot be, prenatal things add to that, but when the child pops out, those are mostly 'interesting to know'-material, and what you have, you work with and you have still majority of the work to do and there is no reason to throw a towel, because environment counts at least as much as genetics."

And of course the fact, that venturing too far to "some people should never have children" gets you quickly very close to forced sterilisations and even uglier things. I also hold a religious believe that or people are equal, irreplaceable and loved by something much bigger than us, whose ideas or thinking we can not grasp, so we are not able to tell if someone's life is meaningless even if it looks like that to us.

(I might move into the wilderness with no outside influences on him though!).

I play with an idea of well padded box in attic for mine....

 

[Signorina]

I went to a fundraiser for a highly respected, top notch Neuroscience Medical School last night. I was literally floored to be in the same room as so many brilliant minds. Four of the physicians spoke - one of whom holds an MD in Neurosurgery and a PhD in Bio-engineering - and he is the chairman of the neuroscience department. He spoke about the pioneering medical research they are doing to treat brain disorders and addiction (as well as Parkinsons and Alzheimers etc). I don't think there is any doubt that it's the neurological pathways that determine addiction, mental illness and other disorders. Acquired diseases such as Parkinsons, MS, Alzheimers, certain types of Mental Illnesses - happen when the previously used pathways stop functioning properly. (Please know this is my own Liberal Arts educated self "translating" a portion of his speech into something I can write!) Neurons form the pathways and the way the neurons perform is largely determined by genetics. It isn't any different than any other biologic tendency or predisposition elsewhere in the body.

The really exciting thing in the research is the growing field of neuro-engineering. Of course it will be eons before it can be applied to real life people. The university's current research is the premise that artificial neuron stimuli (electrodes) may someday be implantable in order to redirect neurological pathways gone awry and stop the progression of neurological diseases such as Parkinsons and Alzheimers and "interrupt" the mechanics of addiction and mental illness. It would also be applicable to traumatic brain injuries and stroke as well. Not unlike a pacemaker for the heart or a replacement joint.

My argument is more that: "Yes, genetics give you some risks, some outer limits of what you can or cannot be, prenatal things add to that, but when the child pops out, those are mostly 'interesting to know'-material, and what you have, you work with and you have still majority of the work to do and there is no reason to throw a towel, because environment counts at least as much as genetics."
And of course the fact, that venturing too far to "some people should never have children" gets you quickly very close to forced sterilisations and even uglier things. I also hold a religious believe that or people are equal, irreplaceable and loved by something much bigger than us, whose ideas or thinking we can not grasp, so we are not able to tell if someone's life is meaningless even if it looks like that to us.

I don't think ANYONE ANYWHERE implied that some people shouldn't have children or that children should be discarded because of their genetic material. I know that your difficult child's bio father is a bit of a wild card, maybe this genetic talk has hit a nerve and you see offense where none was meant? Otherwise, I can't understand the leap you are taking here from biologic predispositions to a desire to throw children away or pass the buck... NONE of us would be here if we thought of our beloved children as disposable!

My kids are predisposed to a million things... overbites, shorter stature, diabetes, heart disease, cancer, and yes - addiction. Knowledge is power. I go for mammograms because I know I have a higher than average risk for breast cancer. H exercises every day because he worries about heart disease. We warn our kids to avoid excessive sugar and being overweight because we don't want them to acquire stage 2 diabetes. We slather sunscreen on PC20 because he inherited his grandma's tendency to sunburn easily. And yes - from middle school on - I told them they needed to be particularly careful with drugs and alcohol because their uncle is an addict and they are extra susceptible to addiction. And over and over and over again, I say (said) - "you will get to choose to drink or try drugs just once. At any point after that 1st time - drugs or alcohol could choose you and you won't get to determine when that is. It could be the second time or the 22 time or the 225 time. So do not choose to use drugs even just once."

We do our best with the hand we are dealt.

 

[toughlovin]

Ok so one of the major issues in many adoptions is we know very little about the genetic background of our kids.... so we dont know what they are predisposed to. We literally get them as they are with little foreknowledge of what kinds of things they might be at risk for.

Which also means we dont know how much at risk they might be. My husband has some interesting issues in his family and I have thought well at least we didnt have kids that have x.....but of course we dont know what we are getting instead!

TL


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[SuZir]

My kids are predisposed to a million things... overbites, shorter stature, diabetes, heart disease, cancer, and yes - addiction. Knowledge is power. I go for mammograms because I know I have a higher than average risk for breast cancer. H exercises every day because he worries about heart disease. We warn our kids to avoid excessive sugar and being overweight because we don't want them to acquire stage 2 diabetes. We slather sunscreen on PC20 because he inherited his grandma's tendency to sunburn easily. And yes - from middle school on - I told them they needed to be particularly careful with drugs and alcohol because their uncle is an addict and they are extra susceptible to addiction.

Yes, but you are not taking those things as issues that have been set to stone, but instead make effort to influence environmental factors so that those risks wouldn't materialize. If you would believe, that it is all genetics, there wouldn't be a point.

I don't think ANYONE ANYWHERE implied that some people shouldn't have children

Oh, there was that particular comment right on the first page, that said just that, with likes and agrees in it too.

or that children should be discarded because of their genetic material. I know that your difficult child's bio father is a bit of a wild card, maybe this genetic talk has hit a nerve and you see offense where none was meant?

Later part no one said in this thread, but if we believe that nothing can be done, that is a logical conclusion; why even try, if it is set in the stone? And while my difficult child's biological father is a bit of wild card (he is very high functioning, if intense, himself, but I know little about his family, though I have some reason to believe it may have been slightly disadvantaged) this talk about genetics ruling it all is more likely to hit the nerve, because according these opinions, my very well known and very risky family background absolutely means, I shouldn't be alive and so of course not my kids either. And I very much am against the idea, that I should not have been born, because my parents were carrying lots of genetic risks for mental health and addiction issues.

I also find it rather peculiar, that people talk like addiction or mental health issues would be the reason to 'not pass the gene on', but at the same time don't seem that worried about passing on bad genes when it comes to other illnesses. Like it would be somehow worse to pass your child addictive genes than genes that make your cancer risk sky rocket. Maintaining the stigma of addiction and mental health issues is something I oppose too, you see.

 

[Nancy]

I will take MWM's advice and ignore your comment suZir, it is not worth getting into a diagreement. But I will say that you are not in a position to judge what I say or don't say about something you have no experience with.

 

[Kathy813]

Suzir, please be mindful of the audience that is reading your posts. It is like pouring salt into wounds.

All of us have wondered why our difficult child's are like they are. Your posts are suggesting that if we had been better parents, we could have overcome the genetics. I don't believe that is true.

My difficult child and easy child are both biologically mine. They were raised with the same set of parents in the same home. Same rules, same values, and equally loved. The outcome? One difficult child and one easy child. Unfortunately difficult child lost the genetic lottery and ended up just like husband's brother. I don't think anything we could have done would have changed where she ended up and believe me when I say we have done everything humanly possible to help her fight her addiction and get help with her mental health issues.

I am going to close this thread if this continues. This board is supposed to be supportive and kind and your posts are stirring up some very hurtful feelings.

~Kathy