Family of Origin (FOO) Support Thread Part 2

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
I am losing. I am very tired. I will keep losing. The more I go on, the more I will lose. I will lose myself. Am I really helping him? He does not think so.
Copa, his health is not your responsibility, although I 100% understand why it worries you so much. I'd be just as worried. But the bottom line is, you can't make him care and even with guardianship, a legal guardian's ward who will not listen to his guardian is much like a teenager...you can't make that person do anything. The police won't help you take him for bloodwork. The police won't make him take his pills. The courts can order it (I don't know if they would or not) but can not force him to swallow the pills. So how can you expect to be able to do this?

Copa, if there ever is a next time with your son in the car with you driving to a lab, your best bet, in my opinion, is to not speak to him all the way up and back. Don't antagonize him (and that's easy to do if you talk to him) and just get the dang bloodwork over with. Understand you can't make him care about his disease or the treatment and the reason why he doesn't care may never be clear to you. If he is not having active symptoms, being a young man, he may not believe his illness could endanger him. He may believe you are exaggerating. The "why" isn't the upshot.

Do not tear your heart into shreds trying when he will not. You have done more than what you possibly could have done. He knows the risks from you and his doctors. He is choosing to ignore them. But he knows. Maybe, and I hope it doesn't go this far, if he is in discomfort from the Hep. B, he will finally get help for it and maybe that's not too late.

Asymptomatic illnesses are very sneaky. High blood pressure is one. You may feel no different than always and decide, "Who needs blood pressure pills?" This is common. The mentally ill go off their helpful medication often once they feel better thinking "the worst is over." This, of course, leads to relapse, but it happens often. Your son is not that unique, especially for a young person who does not believe yet that he can die.

Copa, you aren't young anymore. I will try to keep telling you that you should, in my opinion, spend as much time caring for yourself as you do your son. You can't help him, but you can help YOU. And I care so much about you...I don't want you to get ill worrying about your child. Yes, I know how hard that is. I did not sleep the years of my daughter's drug use when she would somehow escape from the house and run the streets. Until she was home safe in bed, I'd be awake, drinking coffee (yeah, that helped!) and pacing and often crying. I thought she would end up either in jail or dead. She did neither. Life is strange. You can not predict the future of your son. The only issue you can predict is that what happens to him will come from him.

Hugs and try to have a good day. Get out of that toxic bed, take a nice walk, look at all the beauty the earth offers that nobody can take from you and that money can't buy. Life is truly a wonder. We can be alive but dead.During some of my depressions, that is how I felt. But I fought hard and burrowed through each one until I could find the right medication/therapy combo that helped me. I'm no hero. I just did not like my life when depressed and am not a quitter. You can fight too. I know you have it in you. You are very strong. You are still standing with all you have been through. We are all survivors.

Let's do this for one more day ;) One day at a time, one hour at a time, one moment at a time. Don't worry about what will happen next. You can't know that. Enjoy now.
 

Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
Sometimes, like with me, it was just verbal, but bad enough for me to have to live the words over and over again.

Even for those abused in other ways SWOT, it is the words and the looks and the identification as bad or stupid or worth nothing that damage the victim's psyche. It is never just verbal, SWOT. Abusive words are accusations and condemnations, and are spoken to destroy a child's will and to break her spirit. I remember my mother's eyes more clearly than I remember her hurting me physically. My worst memories are of standing there, helpless, while she hurt my brother ~ not of her hurting me.

I remember you posting that the toys you wanted were never the toys you received...and that you were made to feel small for having wanted them.

That is abuse.

Not that she did not buy you a particular toy, but that no toy you wanted was a good toy, and then, your abuser used what your little girl's heart wanted to smash you into nothing ~ into baaaaad; into stupid.

You have been savagely abused SWOT. It would be a healing thing for you to honor that, and to honor your having survived it intact. If my mother had not been so out of bounds in other ways, I would have such a hard time believing she could have done what she undeniably did do. Then, I would not be able to take the ongoing damage that goes with interacting with my FOO seriously and I would still be afraid of them.

Like spooky movies and monsters and scary bedtime stories, our FOO stop being scary SWOT when we turn on the lights.

And they disappear altogether when the sun comes up.

It is okay that this happened, SWOT. It is true that you did peek, but here is a secret: I think it is good to have a look once in awhile. We cannot just ignore that these people are out there in the world acting like jerks instead of sisters or moms (in my case) or brothers.

They are trying to hurt us, SWOT. They are trying to ostracize and punish and force us and trick us into playing Nice Guy, into playing Apologetic Guy and Supportive Guy and Welcoming Guy and Forgiving Guy again while they tear us apart and hate us behind our backs.

That is not what family is meant to do. We are not the only ones to have come from dysfunctional families. This is not about us, it's about them, and it's always been about them.

So, we turned away.

This is how we want it. Now that we know who they are, this is how we want it. I don't know what my family could do for me to reconsider...and yet, of course I do. All they would need to do is be real; drop the roles, for once.

They cannot, SWOT.

Your sister cannot, either.

It breaks my heart too. I wish I had family, too.

But it is better to know.

This hurt will pass SWOT, you know this is true. Each time you re-examine the situation with your sister, it will be a sadness for a little while. But there isn't any regret here that could matter, SWOT. We didn't do this. What we did was to stop playing the nasty, twisted games our FOO insist on instead of something real and true and decent and right.

And though they claim they are stunned and disbelieving and hurt...they do not try to bring us back to the fold, SWOT. No one sent me flowers; none has sent me so much as a card. My sister calls periodically to berate me ~ to dance in the light of my burning. She will not be calling again because she needed my uncertainty, needed me to collude with her in her chosen reality.

Isn't that something.

Think about that. Think about the differences between Lil and Jabber's family (and think about Jabber's protectiveness toward his sisters, too) and then...think about the ways our FOO are working away right now, right this minute to disparage us and one another and to twist and mislabel and misdefine and use everyone and anyone in contact with them.

Dysfunctional families twist and twist true things.

But that is alright. We do not have what we wanted. But that is alright, too.

We are fine without them, SWOT. It is okay to miss them. It's okay to wish we had sisters and brothers and (for me) a mom. That would be lovely, and we deserve those good things. We deserve those good things, and of course it makes us very sad that our families are dysfunctional and that none of us ~ not a one of us, now or then or ever ~ had what he or she wanted.

But we lived; but we had what we needed.

And we are working through the rest.

:O)

Cedar
 

Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
My family spoke Polish and cursed in Polish and Russian to avoid the "little pitchers" problem. I can't speak either of those languages but I can cuss a blue streak. :)

D H no longer speaks Italian, but when we are near someone who does, the curse words are the ones that come back first.

Next?

Food.

We are talking about an Italian man here, after all.

So...do you make those dumplings with potatoes inside, nerfherder? Pirogie, I think they are called? Is there a traditional Russian food you remember from your childhood?

Cedar
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
I remember you posting that the toys you wanted were never the toys you received...and that you were made to feel small for having wanted them.
Oh, yeah. No Barbie. No Chatty Cathy. No beloved Thumbalena. I do feel it is, if nothing else, stupidly controlling. Everything I REALLY wanted was ugly, like what SHE thought was ugly was more important than what I, as a child, wanted. I can't relate to it. It never crossed my mind to tell any of my kids, "You want that for your birthday? Well, I think it's an ugly, stupid toy (yes, she used the word stupid) so I won't get it for you. On top of that, I'll make you an outcast by not allowing you to own what the other kids own."

That's essentially what she did.

It doesn't get much more petty and controlling.

Cedar, I know she was abusive. I knew it since the day I tossed my childhood picture album in the trash in my 30s. I was not fooled by that at that time. My problem was I thought I deserved it because I was baaaaaaaad. I felt my sister deserved to abuse me too. That's where I had to change my thinking.
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
We are fine without them, SWOT. It is okay to miss them.
I don't miss them, Cedar. I wish I had had a loving mom, a nice brother who was protective and a kind sister who accepted that I had some neurological differences and did not want to paint me black. But I never had that. So I can't miss what I never had.
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
Think about that. Think about the differences between Lil and Jabber's family (and think about Jabber's protectiveness toward his sisters, too) and then...think about the ways our FOO are working away right now, right this minute to disparage us and one another and to twist and mislabel and misdefine and use everyone and anyone in contact with them.
Very good point, Cedar. Thank you. You are great.

Have a good day to all. I have to go to work.
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
I thought of something before I go that I need to get out of my system.

My sister is saying I am telling everyone about her, even though they don't know her.

I don't agree.

Nobody here knows who she is or who I am, but...she did it to me.

I know a cop in our old town and we only had three cops. She repeatedly called this cop on me for sending her maybe an e-mail or for calling her when we had a dispute. And, no, this was not f or pelting her with stuff, although I question calling the cops for that too as our distance makes it impossible that I'd harm her and I never have. She told this one cop, who is actually a good friend of ours (his daughter is Jumper's age and they are close) that "my sister is mentally ill and has bipolar disorder." This is before she knew about borderline. She deliberately told somebody she knew that we socialized with and whose daughter socialized with mine and she called the police often and usually got him and she did it to be mean. No other reason. He would apologize to me and ask me if SHE had mental health issues, then he eventually stopped even following up on her calls.

One day we were in line at our one bank. He said, "Oh, yea." Eyeroll. "Your sister called again. I didn't want to bother you." LOL

I wonder how she'd feel if I told somebody she knew and socialized with about her anorexia and her personality disorder. Somebody in authority. I would never do it, but she did. And I have no diagnosis of either bipolar or borderline. My diagnosis is Mood Disorder not otherwise specified, which is different from Bipolar.

Isn't she nice? She calls me out for things SHE does.

"My Sister Abused Me." That was her post. Yes, I teased her when we were children. Yes, I wish I had not. Yes, I wish my mother would have cared enough to have stopped me, but she didn't. I'm sorry.

But she abused my brother worse. "He is so gross. He smells his hand (my brother used to smell his hand). "He goes to the bathroom without closing the door." "I'm afraid my friends will see him." He heard her. He had to have heard her. She did not invite him to her wedding because he was "ugly, gross."

But I abused her. I never made fun of her person, although I agree that I shouldn't have teased her. Nor should she have belittled my brother in such a horrible way. Nor does she admit she did. But I was there.She did. Big time. "I hope he doesn't walk by when (boyfriend) comes over to pick me up! Gross! How will I explain him? He looks like a girl." Yes, she said all of this.

If she wants me to stop talking about her, maybe she should stop talking about me and maybe call and have an adult discussion.

One thing I can't abide is hypocrites.

Ok, off to work. Have a great day to all!!!!!
 

nerfherder

Active Member
D H no longer speaks Italian, but when we are near someone who does, the curse words are the ones that come back first.

Next?

Food.

We are talking about an Italian man here, after all.

So...do you make those dumplings with potatoes inside, nerfherder? Pirogie, I think they are called? Is there a traditional Russian food you remember from your childhood?

Cedar

My maternal FOO were Polish Jews - actually very urban, cosmopolitan Jews from pre-war Warsaw, known as the Paris of Eastern Europe. French was a required second language in the schools, they went to plays and shows, and my grandfather even got drunk with Enrico Caruso in 1906 - he had escaped to Europe after the SF earthquake, and was bemoaning the lack of good wine in Poland, my grandfather was a neighborhood winemaker, and someone hooked them up.

The whole Shtetl mythos drove my aunt up the wall. :)

Mom didn't make pierogies, not very often. She made some awesome kreplach though. :) We have a bunch of food allergies in the house, so anything with wheat for the kids is more special treat than staple. I do some special treat thing like that around once a month, it's hard for me too since I'm mildly allergic to wheat and shouldn't eat any. (Not a gluten issue, I can drink beer and scotch with no problems.) Asthma medications cost money, so it's cheaper to just not eat it.
 

Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
My parents could never have facilitated it as neither communicates well and my mother did not have kind intent. It takes a strong head of household to do something like that to bring the family together. Family was not talked about with respect in my FOO.

This seems so strange to me, SWOT. Part of my fascination with Judaism was all the laws governing how family was to interact. I imagined all Jewish families got it right and made special foods for holidays and celebrated with purposeful intent, the men's voices singing the blessing.

In my imagination, that is just how it was.

Candlelight reflecting from the faces.

A little more gossipy than the ex's smaller family, but it was a huge family and when somebody was down, the entire family would unite to be of support.

Everyone does tend to have a nose in everyone else's business in a healthy, well-bonded family, that is true. My FOO does not celebrate the births of the family's babies, and they do not celebrate (or pay for, or feel their daughters or sons are entitled to) weddings. They twist everything having to do with a death. Nothing is sacred because family is seen as meaningless. There is no effort that is too little a thing not to do. One of the roles is "person saving the family", or "person believing in family".

That was me.

Now it is my sister. But she only believes in her own family, and it makes me just want to spit that between she and my mother, she's pulling it off.

roar

I am jealous about that. That they have family and I don't and I don't want to hear about how hard it is for her, that manipulative little brat. That is what she said, last time I talked to her. That my brother calls all the time now (and they pick up), and that she needs me because her life is falling apart and she is doing everything and blah blah and roar.

Ahem.

Because I did not feel I deserved it for myself. I waited until it was offered, in a manner that it could always be withdrawn.

"...in a manner that it could always be withdrawn."

Copa, I don't know enough about your position to say, but it seems that you have created enough financial fortune to be without work for some time so...could you be withdrawing, now that your mother has passed and your child's life is not safe, could you be withdrawing financial security from yourself as some way to apologize to your mother for having defied her by creating financial independence in the first place?

And yet you chose as a husband a man who has not one of these qualities. Nor would he tolerate or be influenced by same. You chose an incorruptible man. How was that Cedar?

I made him that way.

:O)

I don't know, Copa. My father was a man of integrity. I like that in a man: integrity, a sense of strong self instead of approval seeking.

D H and I have had to recommit to one another and to our marriage and our kids time and again. It is true what they say: Long term marriage is something you leave and return to time and again. We have hated one another with equal intensity. I have been afraid of
D H as he (so he claims) has sometimes been afraid of me.

I told D H once that if he ever hit me, I would pour boiling water on him while he slept.

We both have been ready to declare divorce a thousand times, but somehow, even now, when we have two places we could go, no one leaves without coming back.

Somehow, I just keep finding that clear feeling of singing, or of the ring of crystal, with my D H.

For heaven's sake, I sound like an idiot.

This is what I think I know: We bring ourselves together to work through unresolved issues. Divorce happens, I think, when the issues are resolved or when we cannot work through them with that partner. We leave one and put ourselves right back into relationship with what is basically the same person until our issues are resolved.

My mother was ready to be married again within months of my father's death and this was appropriate. Had my mom escaped the twisting sickness in our family, she may have had a chance to reclaim herself, free of the shame of what happened, of who she became, of who her children were. In essence, this is what the Greek Orthodox priest believed he was here to do, and is part of the reason he continued to put himself in the position he did, relative to my sister, who hates him with a passionate intensity similar to the hatred she feels for my D H.

Well, and as we are learning, for me, too.

But my sister used my mom's guilt at never having been the mother my sister needed to create what now exists. The exclusion, the role-playing, the brittle hatred, the arrogance and toxicity of it.

Isn't that something.

Yes, Cedar. Me too. I think I was always afraid. My Mother was very, very powerful. I was very controlled by her. Even though I fought it. Rebelled. I was always controlled.

I don't know, Copa. We were shamed and battered and terrorized into fitting receptacles for an abuser's grandiosity. Grandiosity is a fraud. True power is invariably kind, and calming, and strong.

Truly powerful people accept us where we are without either judging us or joining us, there where we struggle.

It is a settled thing, to interact with someone with true power.

I think that, like my mom too Copa, your mom was not universally strong; I wish for our sakes that our mothers had been strong in an intact way. My mom had been badly hurt, or she had other problems. She seemed strong and whole and absolutely correct arbiter of the world to me because that is what mothers seem like to children.

But damage was done Copa, to you and to me.

Our mothers were not strong; not strong enough.

But here is the thing we can take away from that: If we are strong enough to see our ways through the very things that broke our mothers, then we will be very strong, indeed. Our mothers were strong, Copa.

My mother was very strong; very bright.

But she was not strong enough.

I am.

You are.

You just don't know it, yet.

And go ahead and bury you, forgetting about the flag.

But never, ever facing...herself. Never, ever, rising above whatever it was to stop twisting her own daughters. Ariana Huffington talks of her mother Copa, and of her daughters, very often. I have learned there the way it should be.

I will find a link for you.

That, those women, those daughters ~ that is how it should have been for us.


I believe he feels he deserves to live and die just exactly as he chooses. To him, his autonomy is more important than his life. I am beginning to understand. I am almost at the point of accepting his terms.

I am beginning to accept that this is the right thing for me, too.

As a man.

And, as importantly, I will have taken away my son's life in order to save it.

This is what I see in your son's behavior. Rage at his position, rage at his dependence, rage that you know how it is for him and with his life.

I am beginning to accept that this is the right thing for me, too.

His life is not more important than mine.

This is what I told my mother 8 months before she died: Your life is not more important than mine.

It was a horrible thing to say, and in the two years and a half since then I have nearly died with the shame of it.

Copa...this is where you must work, then.

Your life is only yours. You cannot give anyone even one more minute of the time alloted to their lives but they can take your allotment; they can take the rites of courage and growth and integrity; they can and they will, suck that energy that is your energy into the service of their sickness, of their strange and wicked grandiosity.

Life is a miracle, Copa.

You, just as you are and with every flaw and wonder in you, are here on purpose, Copabanana.

You.

You have a thing to accomplish or you would be gone from life.

You have to perform with integrity, Copa. We all have to do our best, even if we change our minds all the time about what that best thing is.

That is our side of the bargain, Copa.

You are doing well. It only feels really good? When we are cheating.

If I dedicate myself to controlling my son's medical care, which is the longest of long shots: going to court, trying to declare him incompetent. Forcing treatment. Supervising him. Seeing if he has swallowed the medicine or hiring somebody to do the same.

I will never win. It will never work. Even in prisons where they have thousands of people working in a controlled environment, they cannot win in a battle such as this. And, as importantly, I will have taken away my son's life in order to save it. And I will likely give up my own life trying.

I'm sorry, Copa. What a horrible position to be in.

Neither choice is the right one and yet, a choice must be made. But what seems like the right choice today may change, tomorrow. Or tomorrow, there may be a cure. or an earthquake. Ten thousand things can happen, Copa. That is small comfort, but it is true.

When I was in the thick of it with daughter, I lost my faith. Boom. Just like that. Gone. So, I started saying "yes". I took care of someone's cats. I began at the gallery. I took a religion class because someone asked. I drove instead of being afraid of it. I washed the car.

I just said "yes".

And so...I lived.

And once I made it through that, Copa? I decided my FOO was small potatoes and determined to have at them once and for all. And when I am sad about what I learned there?

I remember what it was like to lose faith.

And I remember that I went through that alone; I may have gone through it at all because of them, because of the sickness in them, and the sickness in me.

I decided to heal.

You did too.

So did SWOT.

And we are.

You are going to come through this changed, Copa. But come through it, you will.

I think it will not be so long a time, now. Months, still, but not years.

Or it could be an instant, Copa.

I am losing. I am very tired. I will keep losing. The more I go on, the more I will lose. I will lose myself. Am I really helping him? He does not think so.

My life is as important as my son's.

"I will keep losing...." Until you let go, Copa. You will keep losing until you let go. This is what your son chooses. The only thing you will be letting go of, once you do let go, is conflict over who gets to choose what for whom. The facts will be the facts.

Your life is your life, Copa. Your son's life is your son's life. Each of us has his or her own destiny and will learn many things through it and that is why we are here, Copa. You are learning, now. So am I.

Or we would be already gone.

So is your son, and he is making that clear to you.

Respect him enough to try what he says he wants. Let go, Copa.

If you can do it, let go.

We are right here, Copa. Small comfort, but very real support and concern and cherishment and hope.

It's going to be alright, Copa. Everything else hasn't worked; nothing else has worked. Like me, here you are too Copa with nothing left to do but let go.

Cedar
 

Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
Stepford Children can be creepy, too.

Oh, but Seeking they weren't Stepford kids. They were the strong, loving kids of a great mom and a great dad. I've known the mom for so many years, Seeking. She is a fine, fine woman. I've been at her house when she hosts something like sixteen times. She has been at mine that same number or more.

I think what happened to me is that, especially since I've been staring right into the places where I was broken and told myself lies about the how and why and meaning of those places...I don't know. I am raw, flighty, emotionally labile in a sense. Nothing is as I believed it would be. It isn't that I didn't know my family and my FOO were messed up, it is that I believed with all my heart that each of us was good and decent and kind and that we could do this. I believed my sister and my mom held that same intention. I believed there was pain there, but not hatred.

There is hatred.

I feel bereft. Feel like I spin around that fact, like it can't possibly be real...but it is real.

And this woman I have known for so long has created the family I would wish for myself and it was hard to know that; hard to be there and see and feel it and know my kids are still so...troubled.

Troubled is a good enough word, for today.

The upshot though, and this is important for all of us I think, is that I've come through that loving what I do have. Loving the courage in my kids and even in me, though I would have dumped it all to have had it as I wanted us all to be.

I just...it is a very sad thing, to let go of those family dinner dreams. Part of the sadness is that, for us, it's too late. My kids are well out of their twenties.

Letting go of illusion, confronting illusion, confronting the loss of a dream...those things are really hard. It's like the bottom falls out of the psyche and we are floundering around in a psychic storm, and it's scary and man, I couldn't believe I could feel that way, or that intensely, about the losses I was so sure I had accepted.

It very much did suck, to go through that.

But I learned that pretending we are all going to come through this somehow is insulting to all of us. I learned that I ~ I don't know. A kind of honesty without judging by the standards of my mother.

This has something to do with acceptance and with hatred and with elevating my self through the illusion that it was going to be something better than it was when what is required here is to honor what is. Our paths have been so unbelievably painful and spirit breakingly hard. But we are walking them, my kids and D H and I. We are determined to chose love and not hate.

MY FOO IS IN DEEP S*** THOUGH.

:O)

It was an important event, what happened to me that night.

Shocking.

I am still coming through it. I don't know how to do this, how to accept what is instead of believing in what could be ~ in what I was so sure it would be.

Part of this was the loss of a sense of decency involved in admitting this isn't going to change. I am that person whose children are so troubled.

I always was.

They never got better....

It breaks my heart, to think of it.

It is what it is.

This conversation has moved on, but I am home now and my fat fingers fit the laptop better and I just wanted you to know that I totally get your book club experience.

Thank you, Seeking. It's a hard thing, isn't it.

So...are your fingers really fat, or are you tearing into yourself because you are in pain, do you think?

I used to hate my hands too. And my feet. They seemed just the ugliest, boniest things. As I am healing, I admire those same darn hands!

Who even knows what is true about what we think or how we feel or what we think we know about anything, it seems to me.

Like SWOT and me and Copa and each of us Seeking, you are here on purpose. You are meant to be just as you are. Whyever this is happening, it is happening. Like each of us ~ like I have to do and keep keep falling so short of too ~ you need to be strong. Being mean to ourselves is weakening. Weakening ourselves is how our abusers taught us to end the abuse. When we were broken enough, when we were deeply broken...they stopped. And every time we allow them to break through and hurt us into submission again now, when we are adults with the fantastic option of choosing better than they taught us for ourselves...that is a miracle of rare device, too.

Those times are over.

They are over because we say so. That was the hardest part ~ defying them in our hearts. All we have to do now is follow through.

Don't cheat, Seeking. Your fingers are actually bona fide miracles.

So are mine. Especially that middle one, which I am renaming FOO finger.

:O)

Cedar
 
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Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
She told this one cop, who is actually a good friend of ours (his daughter is Jumper's age and they are close) that "my sister is mentally ill and has bipolar disorder."

They say the wheels of justice grind slowly, but that they grind exceedingly fine. I think what your sister did is reprehensible. Let's go back to the Kennedy's. In that family with its President and Senators and its fine actors and its beautiful hair and strong teeth and etc, they do not call names. They did not hide the daughter the father had lobotomized. They did not hide away the child born with Down's, if that is what caused her problems.

They created the Special Olympics, and changed the world and reached into and changed everyone's heart with the strength and conviction in their own hearts. You have done the same in your life, and you too have changed the world for your children.

Anyone can call names. It is a question of character whether we do that.

roar

Your sister is worse than mine. Or maybe, it is that she is less clever. You know who names names like your sister does? My mother. And for the years my sister did not have money, there were many names my mother did name her. Terrible names, SWOT.

And I was pseudo mom then, just like I am now ~ and was equally hated in both times. I just never believed it. I believed in my sister; now, I don't. And that changes everything about her, and about me.

But doggone it. I am still the one without a freaking FOO, here.

Grrrr....!

It's a question of character. It's one thing to affix a label to define a problem. It is something else altogether ~ something evil ~ to affix a label to destroy another person's reputation to justify your own inappropriate actions.

You think you were not savagely abused, SWOT. But the truth is...you were. And then, even as adults, your sister chose to publicly humiliate you with her words, with her deceitful namings, at a time when you did not know yourself what the truth was.

That was a really bad thing that your sister did, SWOT.

Your sister exploited a vulnerability created by your mutual, scathingly abusive mom, and did everything in her power to destroy you with it. That is who she named herself when she named you first one terrible, incurable thing and then, another.

That is who she is by her own choice. Someone who would do something like that.

Because we trust them still, our FOO can no longer have access or input. They are different than us. They want to hurt us. They believe they will somehow attain miraculous, special child status if we are only somehow destroyed. As you posted months ago SWOT, you are still in your sister's head.

I might say she never knew who you were, at all. The person in her head isn't even you. It's who she needs you to be.

Seeing all things through a filter of hatred will do that.

Like I do too SWOT, you need to bless the sister in your head and let go. It is possible that the difference between the way we see the sisters in our heads and the way our sisters see us in theirs is that, in spite of all of it, we determined to choose love and they chose, and continue determinedly to choose, to rationalize and justify, hate.

We have to let them go, SWOT.

We can do that.

We are strong enough to do that without hatred.

That is the difference.

We have always tried very hard not to legitimize the hatred that was so essential a piece of what our mothers nurtured their families on. We have worked very hard to find compassion for those we might as easily have justified hating.

Hatred is such an ugly thing.

Cedar
 

nerfherder

Active Member
This seems so strange to me, SWOT. Part of my fascination with Judaism was all the laws governing how family was to interact. I imagined all Jewish families got it right and made special foods for holidays and celebrated with purposeful intent, the men's voices singing the blessing.

From Caplan's "Legends of the Jews" vol. 1:
(Downloadable in various eBook formats on Gutenberg.org)

"Regardful of the peace of their family life, God had not repeated Sarah's words accurately to Abraham. Abraham might have taken amiss what his wife had said about his advanced years, and so precious is the peace between husband and wife that even the Holy One, blessed be He, preserved it at the expense of truth."
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
I found this post that I wrote May 8th. It seems to speak to where I am now. I was responding to a poster, I think, who had said something to the effect that parents who detached, might be cruel or selfish.

It is useful to me now, as my heart breaks, to read my own words. It might have been that I was defending other parents who I see as valiant. It is clear to me that even though I do not feel as if I am worthy of protection or defense....I cannot reasonably exclude myself.

My son's favorite word is "rational" a quality he believes I completely lack. In Google Images, search for wild, distraught mothers in agony. You will see me there.

But for this moment I will pretend to be rational: I cannot exclude myself from a rule, I created.

Here is my original post, from 3 months ago. Before I knew my son had stopped his antivirals.

I want to respond to broken hearted in chicago:

Many of our children spend time in jail and are homeless, that is true. This does not result from our heartlessness as parents. We love our children beyond measure.

Our sons and daughters, too, have been good children. Like your son, for one reason or another they have not yet found the way to a productive and satisfying adult life.

My son, too, has suffered from panic attacks, depression, and other symptoms of mental illness. When, of necessity, he must meet the world...his symptoms recede... he has less social anxiety, less self-consciousness... he is less depressed.

The worst thing that any of us can do is to retreat, to give up. When we do our troubles come to fill our world and define us.

Who was it that wrote about birds, who when their babies resist leaving the nest, bit by bit dismantle it, so that their babies fly rather than fall. This is faith. Mama and Papa Bird are not sure that their babes will fly. But they know they must.

Sometimes safety is not the best thing. Especially for our grown children. To have meaning in their lives and self-respect, they must meet their lives head on. And that means...whatever they choose, whether we like it or not.

I have not yet read one story here on this forum that led me to fear that the adult child did not have the capacity to choose to do the right thing for him or herself.

The Mama and Papa birds on this site dismantle the protective nests around their now grown babies --- not to hurt them.

These parents act from respect of their children's right and capacity to solve their own problems, learn from their mistakes, and to get the support they need to do so.

They also do so because they come to know that it is profoundly disrespectful for one adult to sacrifice themselves for another.

Chicago, I hope you spend more time on the site. If you choose to do so, you will see great love and come to know heroic people.

.
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
I need to decide what to do now. I will call today to see if I can get antidepressants.

I receive small pensions. While I could apply for social security, I am trying to wait as long as I can. My pensions could be enough to live on, but I am completely oblivious to what I spend.

While I am not self-indulgent, I am self-destructive with money. Since my mother died I have amused myself with buying online. Absolutely stupid and self-destructive purchases. I did that with stocks, too. I have lost thousands of dollars.

There are two ways I can go: I can go back to work and work long enough to restore the money. It would take less than 6 months. Another benefit would be that I would get Soc Sec credit for this year and next, if I start soon. That is important to me.

I may have to leave the area to work but M would go with me. In the past this has worked out okay. Restoring the money would make me feel good. I think I would feel good from being around my patients, too. I would remember who I am.

We could then go cross country after I stopped working. I would never have to go back to work in prisons again, if I did this.

The other option is to go cross country. This would deplete more money. The positives would be to throw a gauntlet down in a new life. It would be hopeful and not fearful. Audacious and not defensive. It is possible that a way could be found to handle the economic disparity between M and I. I could always come back and work for 6 months, after we went cross country. This option would eat up money, because aside from the costs of the trip, I would have to support two residences.

One could say it is worth the risk. After all, my life is at stake. But the thing is it is not a simple decision. It may be that the most life saving decision is prudence. Or it might be defiance. Defiance is what I chose when I left the country before. But I am not that person anymore.

I need to do one or the other. To stay here at home like I am, cannot any longer be an option. I only destroy myself here and do self-destructive things.

I need to figure it out. I have always been an extremely decisive person. I may no longer anymore even be a person. That is a quite discomfiting state to be in.
 
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Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
"Regardful of the peace of their family life, God had not repeated Sarah's words accurately to Abraham. Abraham might have taken amiss what his wife had said about his advanced years, and so precious is the peace between husband and wife that even the Holy One, blessed be He, preserved it at the expense of truth."

This delights me.

Cedar
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
I just got home from work.

I apologize for my earlier post.

I cheated.

I don't care that I read nothing in that post, just seeing her fake name and the title of her post gave me a whopping emotional flashback and I cheated. The fact is, I really don't need to see if she posted about me again or not. What is best for me is not to acknowledge that she exists. It makes me act as ugly as she did and still does sometimes. I am sorry at the anger in that post. We are working on doing better.

I am no better than her if I do what she does. Period.

That's why cheating is a bad thing for us. The emotional flashbacks. The PTSD.

There is so much about my sister that is morally reprehensible and hypocritical, but it shouldn't matter to me anymore as I am not going to experience it again. Unless I choose to as I did when I checked the page.

Cedar, you are right. Out of sight, out of mind. It is what works best for me. I don't know about anybody else.

Cedar, that is how my family treated one another. And who they chose to forgive made no sense. I think that letting go is the ONLY solution when somebody causes you as much pain as these people cause me. There is nothing in it for me to cheat.

I wanted to get that out of the way.

I feel kind of foolish, like an addict who had a major relapse.

I will get back on track and read the posts I missed and I am doing much better now that I am going to post my apology.
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
Part of my fascination with Judaism was all the laws governing how family was to interact. I imagined all Jewish families got it right and made special foods for holidays and celebrated with purposeful intent, the men's voices singing the blessing.
Jewish families are no better than other families no matter what the rules are (and only the very devout even know the rules...lol). Many are dysfunctional and abusive and eat whatever they want to eat (we did) and drink milk with meat and indulge in pork.

If we lived up to our religions, assuming one has a particular religious belief, we'd all be caring people. The problem is, we don't. Look at the state of the world. We just don't.
 
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