Feeling strong-armed by your loved one?

[mrsammler]

Just so you know, I tried very very hard to get my sister to see her situation for what it was, see that she had Battered Wife Syndrome (which she certainly had), get help for that, get help for her son based on his obvious psychopathy rather than her denial-driven notion that he was just a troubled kid sorting things out, but she would have none of this. She did have lots of therapy available but felt that it had run its course with her, and that the problem was that the difficult child wouldn't go to NA meetings (her denial script was that he was simply an addict, nothing more, which was preposterous). She had a long history of rejecting and even hating anyone who saw her difficult child accurately and judged him accordingly. Eventually that contempt was aimed at me, despite all I had done, because I called him what he was and pled with her to see her situation more accurately. This is why I left (well, that and I had a life to return to). She and I are no longer on good terms due to all of this--a sad outcome, given all that happened.

 

[mrsammler]

Janet - I completely agree that kicking the kid out on the curb and never looking back is not only not the right move in most cases but is emotionally impossible for just about any parent. And yes, some of these kids finally begin to grow up in their mid-20s, so in some cases it's just a waiting game. My sense, though, is that when the kid becomes violent toward family members, that places him and the situation in an entirely different category, one that's much scarier, potentially an entirely different and more troubling diagnosis, and which demands a much more decisive response. I posted that here, in this thread, because that's what this thread is about: what do we do when the difficult child is violent? My sense is that if/when he becomes violent toward family members, you've GOT to consider the other children's safety a top priority, as well as your own, and get the difficult child out of the house. I also find that the worst sort of difficult children, those that lie and steal and do drugs and are violent and refuse to accept responsibility and seem remorseless and heartless (and I regard these as budding sociopaths, for the most part), are an incredible threat to family members, given their inclinations toward towering rages and their (usually) great immaturity. My sister used to hide the butcher block and kitchen knives when I was there at the house, as we both feared that her difficult child would come after me with a knife in one of his blind rages. They're not beyond this sort of mayhem, especially when confronted and thwarted. Parental love and compassion and mercy, directed at a kid like this, is not worth dying for, or risking the death or serious injury to your other children. Violence changes everything, and needs to be regarded very, very seriously and responded to decisively. The downside of "taking a chance for the sake of a parent's love" is just too great with violent teen/young adult difficult children.

 

[toughlovin]

Mrsammler and all,

I have several thoughts on this. First I don't think you can generalize to all of us based on your one experience. I have no idea if your nephew is a sociopath, he may be.... but many of us are dealing with difficult child issues but our children are not necessarily sociopaths...the underlying issues are often different, some its a mental disorder or issue of some kind, some it is drug or alcohol abuse, some it is just a pure sense of entitlement for whatever reason.

I also strongly believe, based on personal and professional experience, that getting out of any kind of abusive situation is a process. It does not happen over night and it does not happen because someone else tells you to leave or what to do. It is a process where you yourself get to a place, where you realize enough is enough and that this is not working anymore. The best way to help someone in that process is to give them support and information. It really does not tend to help to tell them what to do, or to try and do it for them. Acceptance of their feelings is important too.... and I think especially in the case of a parent, the feelings are so mixed....because this is your child who is being abusive to you and yet you love this child with all your heart.

It sounds from your post that you have basically written your nephew off.... but his mother probably absolutely can not do that. As an uncle you can do that more easily, as a mother you can't. As a parent, you remember what your child was like when they were young, the potential they had and probably still has, and their strengths as a person as well as their weaknesses. So you are in a very different position than your sister.

I have to say if my brother or someone else came to my home, and told me absolutely what I had to do in regards to my son I would have felt extremely defensive and protective of my son. I might very well have acted like your sister depending on where I was in my own process. I did get to the point where we did kick my son out of the house, we let him fall hard and land in jail, we told him he could not come home and then we helped get him into rehab. But my husband and I had to get there in our own way, our own process and luckily for us we did have supportive people who loved us along the way.

 

[DaisyFace]

Mrsammler--

I think it was absolutely incredible of you to move in with your sister's family for a while....an incredible commitment to your family!

That said - in my house it is taking a lot more than just having husband "step up". Yes, he is physically capable of wrestling my daughter to the ground or pushing her out of a room when she becomes violent and out of control - but what then? She doesn't come back happy and calm....she comes back furious, resentful and looking for revenge.

And at her age of 15 - we do not have the option of kicking her out...

And due to insurance/financial situation - we do not have the option of sending her for treatment.

If we had a relative who was willing to move in and be a constant "guardian" for us - we would take him up on that offer immediately!

But we would recognize that it is not truly a solution. difficult child needs to learn better ways of handling her anger and other issues....otherwise she will simply bully and brutalize anyone she encounters throughout life - and I can't imagine that it will have a positive outcome.

 

[AnnieO]

That said - in my house it is taking a lot more than just having husband "step up". Yes, he is physically capable of wrestling my daughter to the ground or pushing her out of a room when she becomes violent and out of control - but what then? She doesn't come back happy and calm....she comes back furious, resentful and looking for revenge.

And at her age of 15 - we do not have the option of kicking her out...

difficult child needs to learn better ways of handling her anger and other issues....otherwise she will simply bully and brutalize anyone she encounters throughout life - and I can't imagine that it will have a positive outcome.

DF is correct - for some of us. I have a similar situation to hers. We can't just throw her out; she must learn how to deal with other people in an acceptable manner.

Some children may turn out to be sociopaths. But this isn't usually the case with our kids. Our kids have issues that have to be treated - and we try. We just can't let it go.

on the other hand, we don't have to be abused. We have the right to be safe.

 

[Bean]

Fantastic posts. They are all helpful in their own way.

For us, we have a daughter. She can be violent. I've seen it. I don't fear her physically, honestly. Unless she were on some sort of wonder drug that made her think she was invincible, or if she had a weapon. I fear the consequences of a physical encounter. The consequences if she ever laid a hand on my mother and my father defended her. Would my father be sent to jail?

My daughter was introduced to the system via a domestic dispute. She was high, she was out of control, she hit my husband. The police took her and she was charged as an adult.

She hasn't laid a hand on me. I can see her desperately controlling herself from that, but she will get her hands up at my husband. And she will destroy property. The day I found her stealing here, when I kicked her out, she assaulted me verbally, and then put her hand through the door. But she didn't touch me. I worry if she did, mainly because I worry I would come out ahead and where would that leave me with my own children if I was charged? I think I would have the sense to simply contain her and have someone else call the police (if I weren't alone). But what if we were? It sounds silly, but these are the things you have to think about sometimes with kids like this.

My "fears" with my daughter are primarily that the rest of the children would have to suffer her maniacal outbursts. They have years ago, but I think they have somewhat healed from that. The problem is -- for me, too -- re-suffering them is almost worse. Once you've reached a state of healing, having to endure hurts/fears from the past like that is like slapping a sore wound, almost hurting it more. She is not welcome here to stay or to sleep. To visit, planned, fine. But she hasn't earned that back - and spitting at my mother gives her even less leverage to enter the house.

I am going to make some calls to see what my options are. I appreciate the suggestions of that for next time it happens. I need to have a back up plan. I think my kids would simply not let her in. They're pretty good at that. And one of them has a trigger finger for 911. The oldest, though, doesn't feel physically threatened by her, and so he's let her in before (a while ago) when we weren't home. That was the first time I suspected she had stolen from me. What a sneak she is.

I don't know if my daughter is a sociopath. My husband and I have had the discussion, though. Her ODD/depression/anxiety in combination with whatever she is pumping into her system on a regular basis have, yes, seriously elicited some of the behaviors of a sociopath. I hated it when my husband would bring that up because it made me quite sad.

 

[Hound dog]

I agree that this post has been very enlightening and think it would be a good idea to have it archived. As although most of us aren't dealing with sociopathic/psychopathic behaviors......many of us do have difficult children that use manipulation and bully tactics to get what they want. And unfortunately when you're caught in the throes of that........it can be very difficult to see that that is what is actually going on.

But I also have to say that some of us may in fact be dealing with a sociopath/psychopath and not be aware of it. Until those familiar with it here brought my attention to it concerning Katie.....while I knew something was terribly off and there was something serious going on.....I couldn't quite pin it down. Since then, I've been educating myself........and it's right on the money. I can even pinpoint red flags from her childhood visits........many red flags. But while Katie can be pushed into violence......it is only with someone who can't or won't fight back, like children.....but I could see her do it to the elderly.

husband was my back up. But my kids knew I'd take them out far faster than husband. That is not to say that there weren't those moments when I could see them using all their self control to restrain themselves from physically lashing out.

 

[mrsammler]

Very interesting and thoughtful posts here. I should add that I certainly wasn't arguing that all difficult children are sociopaths--I was asserting that, once a teen/young adult difficult child starts behaving violently toward family members, you've got to seriously consider getting him out of the house, because the threat of really disastrous mayhem is very real, and all the parental love in the world won't unplunge that butcher knife that's embedded in your chest. I should also add that I didn't "tell my sister what to do"--I knew better than that. I did tell her that, after a ton of reading on my part and a ton of sober observation of her difficult child, it sure looked like he'd score very high (way over 30, which is the cut-off) on the Hare Psychopathy Checklist, and that she needed to wake up and smell the coffee if she wanted to remain safe and to keep her younger son safe, as I couldn't stick around forever and, due to my dawning awareness of what difficult child was, I didn't see things likely to change any time soon, or at all.

If was a bit too emphatic in my first post, it's because her difficult child literally chased her out of the house, down the driveway, and out into the street with a knife when he was 15, and if the neighbors hadn't all rushed out of their houses to protect her and summon the police, god knows what would've happened. (This was long before I arrived there.) By the time I arrived on the scene a year or so later, that episode had been gradually sanitized in her memory, diminished in severity, and ultimately entirely paper-over, denied, and banned from discussion. This was, after all, her darling boy, and he needed help. Having seen this process (or its outcome, anyway) of selective memory and gradual dismissal of threatening facts, I can see how it might be the case in many homes with difficult children, and how that can pose a real threat--one that's easily seen from the outside but almost invisible to those in the family because they're so acclimated to terrible conditions, as my sister and younger nephew were. Hence my urgent counsel to act emphatically and decisively once the difficult child goes to violence. Violence, as I said earlier, changes *everything* in so many durable, possibly permanent ways: the harm it does, obviously, and the horrific, unthinkable harm it can do at its worst extremes. But also the terrible impact it has on family relations: I really loved my nephew before all of this happened, but after being assaulted a handful of times--well, there's nothing quite like the alteration of regard that you have for someone after he's assaulted you. Love quickly curdles into loathing--at least for me it did. And as you note, I wasn't his parent, so perhaps it was easier for me to write him off, to despise him. But that makes the threat to parents that much greater: because they're understandably unlikely or unable to develop that decisive, protective, get-him-out-of-the-house frame of mind when it's called for and necessary. So please--be safe. Some of these difficult child stories scare the dickens out of me--the threat or reality of violence is practically palpable.

My nephew, by the way, also spat on his mother, many times. Spat in her face. His *widowed* mother. My sense is that any kid who does *that* is a hair-trigger away from violence and, in my reckoning, deserves to be pitched headlong out the front door, never to return. YMMV, of course.

 

[TerryJ2]

Oh, dear, Bean, I am so sorry.

I know, in one sense what you are going through.

My son is not yet that age, but I *think* we have nipped that kind of behavior in the bud. Of course, he's never been high. But I can imagine his perseverance in combination with-a high ... and ...

I'm sorry your husband gave in. You two held out well for quite a while, though. I am so glad the grandparents didn't give in!

 

[Star*]

mrsammler,

Hi and welcome to the board. I wanted to jump in here before you felt the need to defend yourself or your position regarding your opinion of your nephews behavior. I think that you have clearly stated that you *think* your nephew is a psychopath based on your research, reading and witnessing of his actions. While this could be entirely true, at his age? I wanted to give you a glimmer of hope; even though most times after people have witnessed and lived through these horrific acts they rarely do, and with good reasons. I'll try to explain why I feel your reasons are good (and in my own way - not so good) not because I am a defender of psychopaths-sociopaths, but because I've lived with, and was nearly killed on several occasions by one, and raised a budding other.

First I wanted to thank you for brining to light the other board. Until you had brought that to my attention? Quite honestly, I never knew such a place existed. The isolation, and fear for your life a person like a sociopath can make you feel from the world wouldn't exactly lend a victim the chance or choice to look for such a place. The control they have over you is so life-altering you can't imagine. The fear they possess your entire being with is indescribable, and not really anything that even 20 plus years later? I could even begin to put in words. When others come forward and write books after being kidnapped? I'm often quite literally stunned that they are able to do so. Twenty years after my ordeal? I'm still not able to even deal with it all, where they find the courage is astounding. I was beaten, tortured, and nearly killed so many times I lost count. The anger, rage and split personality that comes over these people when they snap is unlike anything you could possibly imagine, and even if you read what these people are doing you can't absorb what true fear is. So you would ask "HOW could you stay with someone like this? You seem like such a rational, smart, intelligent person?" I really have no great response for myself other than I knew if I left, I'd be hunted down and death would be the best thing I could expect.
My ex is what they call a natural born killer. No remorse and by that I mean none. One minute he could be sitting there next to me having a conversation at dinner, then slap the teeth out of my mouth, pound my face into a plate, choke me until I passed out....then when I came to? Be sitting in a chair and ask me to get him a Pepsi, as if nothing happened. And I would, completely out of fear, of what would happen to me or my son if I didn't.

When I left him? I was so scared. I managed to get my son away from him and went into hiding for years. Eventually I had someone betray us, and his Mother found us. I lived in constant fear, got counseling for 15 years, my son? Oh boy - Not too sure I know many five year olds that chase neighbor children down the road with a scythe screaming "I'll kill you" for poking their head in the dog door to see if they could come in the den to play with him and the neighbor kid." I managed to get him to the hospital - he destroyed it. They took him to the State mental hospital in a K-9 van, handcuffed. No police cars were available. It was horrid. Even then no one told me he was a budding sociopath. That didn't come until years later. Was he outrageous? Yes, did he defy authority? Absolutely. Did he ever spit in my face? Certainly. Did he come at me with weapons? Shot an arrow at my heart, and a number of other weapon related things. Did I worry that he was like is biofather? (Would you?) yes, yes I did. But I kept on with therapy, and kept praying. I didn't sugar coat it. See some psychopaths, and sociopaths are ARE productive members of society - they are Senators, lawyers, and doctors - mostly surgeons. They are extremely good at their job - career driven people. They're good because they lack emotions that would otherwise keep them from being sensitive to outside things that would hold them back. There are a lot more sociopaths in society than peole realize. Not all are the killer type. Thats a very small percentage that become the killer type.

As far as your nephew? To me, personally? He sounds angry as hell. He sounds like the ONLY person that he is comfortable taking his anger out on? Is his Mom. I don't think he's angry per-se at her? But he's angry. The fact that he scored high on a books definition of being a sociopath? Well, he could most certainly be headed that way - OR it could just be that he's SO angry that if he doesn't get the help he needs to deal with these anger issues? He is going to be a very, lonely, miserable, person - period. We all have it in us to score high on the sociopath scale. Take any woman that has a scorching case or PMS - and have her take that test - (not even poking fun) the day she on the top of her PMS day or even worse ask me on a day when I have full blown PMDD - I'd probably score pretty high too. Could I actually hurt someone on those days? Yes. Would I? I don't know - I would hope not, but I'm human - we all are. I just have a better set of coping skills and a ton of therapy - what does your nephew have? I have shirts in my closet older than him. What does he have under his belt for anger management? What does he have for coping skills? WHAT does he have for a 'go to' place when he's THAT HOT? that he wants to explode? HOW does your sister behave when she KNOWS he's that angry? Does she leave him alone? Or does she do the "What's wrong, how can I help? Why won't you talk to me, HONEY It's MOM? thing - Does SHE know to leave him ALONE? Let him walk away? GIVE HIM SPACE? Or does she smother him? Has SHE had therapy for anger control? How effectively does she communicate ?

These are not meant to put her or your nephew down but these ARE extremely important things in a family that is in crisis dynamic. If one person is on fire - (hot temper) the other family members NEED TO KNOW - LEAVE HIM ALONE. (As we say here) DO NOT POKE THE BEAR. Deal with it later. Maybe that's not what's going on - I mean literally - you CAN make it worse - you can pour gasoline on a fire. I know - I used to do it with my own son. I USED to provoke his temper and make it 100 times worse - So we both went to anger management classes. Came out 100 times better - he learned skills - and I learned skills and it may have been something as simple as his pencil led breaking - I had no clue - but THAT would be the icing on his cake for the day and he'd YELL and growl - and instead of me saying "HONEY WHAT IS WRONG?" -------I would just let him be. He'd come out and say "I'm going for a walk." ----I would say "Need me?I'm here" and let it go.

Amazing thing about it - ? I was told 5 years ago there was a good chance he was - a budding psycho path. I mean his biofather is more than that. Now he's gone to FIND his father - found him and the most amazing thing is -against my better judgement? He's found him and sees exactly what I was talking about and doesn't want to be ANYTHING like him. A lot of the anger? A lot of the outbursts? Not there any more. So did we change his mapping? Yes. (For a good read look up Mapping regarding a persons mind - can it be changed? yes)

I'm not ready to throw in the towel on any kid. I think too that a lot of what people perceive has to do with your own life experiences and the degree to which you have lived them. For example - I've lived through every natural disaster there is, except volcano. For me- hurricane, tornado, flood - comes tomorrow - of course it's awful - but since I've been through it? It's not THAT damaging and overwhelming to me - I know a little what to expect. However a volcano erupts and huh.....this is going to be new and weird and I'm going to be awe struck because I've never lived through it, and the only thing I have to base my opinion on is what I read about - or my own perceptions, and some of what others tell me. Obviously I don't have to ride a bull to know it's dangerous, but what I'm trying to say is -----mental health or lack of it has so many varying degrees that having not lived through it? Sometimes people might think it's worse than it is, and just go for the worst possible scenario, when others who have lived through it - may say "You know what? It is bad, but......have you considered this? We've been through that and it is possible that he's X and not XX?"

I'm not sure what anyone else is saying here, but when I read about what your nephew has done? And in NO WAY am I saying it's not severe behavior - because it is - and he needs consequences most definitely - a 15 year old with a knife chasing their Mom down the drive needs help - but on the other side of that coin? The entire FAMILY needs help because they all are in crisis mode (you are very correct in that). I'm just not 100% convinced he couldn't be saved - if his Mom will listen to reason, and I think that's the crux of what you are trying to get across to her - maybe if you came at her with a different approach, in talking about finding out about the anger problems, and her getting help and him getting help instead of coming at her with a suggestion of he's a psychopath? It may help them all - and they'd be helped, and none the wiser - and you'd get a sister and a nephew back. If it did turn out that they got in him into any therapy and the doctor determined that he was pscyho/socio - then so be it. I'd let that burden rest with the doctor and not you.

I'd see that as a win/win situation.

Just a suggestion
Hugs
Star

 

[mrsammler]

Stars,

Thank you for your kind and thoughtful response. And I must say that I admire you enormously for having survived your time with your ex and for having found a way to steer your son away from what must've seemed like a certain outcome for a while there. That's very good work, and you should be proud.

I'll contemplate what you've advised me regarding my sister and nephew. It's not my desire to convince anyone here that I'm right or to defend my view of that situation, but I will say that, for the sake of brevity, I excluded a ton of incidents and details which would've, had I been so inclined, further supported my estimation of my nephew's problems. But I have no investment in being certain that he's a sociopath, and as I told his mother a handful of times, I'd love to be wrong about this. I'm very aware that only a trained clinician can make that sort of diagnosis, at the same time that I'm also aware that one can use the Hare PCL as objectively as possible, via lengthy observation and knowing the whole story from "door to door," and arrive at a fairly reliable estimation of things, especially if the checklist's outcome is a very emphatic score rather than vague midpoint between clinical categories/boundaries and/or a judgment call.

I worried very much about bringing up the issue of psychopathy in this forum because a) this is a parent's forum and everyone has a very understandable investment in a parent's fondest hope that things will eventually turn out OK for their kids, and b) the term has become SO negatively loaded with emphatic connotations of "irredeemable, nakedly grotesque and lethally dangerous evil" via its portrayal in movies and mass media, when in fact the actual experience of observing or living with a psychopath (which Hervey Cleckley delineates so clearly and emphatically in his landmark book on the subject, The Mask of Sanity) is much more marked by great tedium--they live the same day over and over and over again, as in the movie Groundhog Day--and the constant, low-level frustration and annoyance of living with what is behaviorally, as a psychologist friend of mine once accurately said about psychopaths, "a complete and utter a**hole." The vast majority of Ps aren't Hannibal Lector, not by a long shot: they're just incorrigibly selfish, amoral, very immature jerks who are additionally very inclined toward addictions and criminality/antisocial behavior, with a few additional behavioral spices thrown in for good measure. I never saw my nephew as evil (although one is tempted at times); I saw him as pitiably stunted and immature and incapable of learning or making productive or useful decisions. That's how one typically regards and experiences a P. In my experience, unfortunately, towering rages and violence were a frequent part of the picture as well, and that really changes and darkens one's perception of *any* person, not just Ps. You avoid. You begin to dislike, and then loathe. You bear a constant grudge, even as you know you shouldn't (this is the real downside of being assaulted by someone, especially if he's never punished and he never apologizes: it's very very hard to forgive or to stop feeling angry).

I know that many of you--maybe most--deal with many of the same behaviors in your difficult children that I've described here, and sometimes all of them at once. And I know that not all, or even most, or even a notable percentage, of your difficult children are psychopaths. And I know that a very headstrong adolescence + anger + some developmental issues, especially when an addiction is added to the mix, can really present very similarly to psychopathy. And as far as I'm concerned, whether it's outright psychopathy or just a bad mixture of causative influences that effectively & closely simulate psychopathy, either way--if there's violence in the mix--they might as well be one and the same, and should be responded to with equal wariness and very keen concern for one's safety and that of one's other family members. A kid who's not a P but who's in such a state of fury and dysfunction that, for 30 minutes, he's acting exactly like a P *might as well be a P* for that period of time. Which means that you need to protect yourself and your loved ones just as if he were a P.

 

[Bean]

Another thing to remember about these kids (and I try to remind myself) is that the brain is not completely done forming until age 25. I remember reading about teenagers and some of the exhibited behaviors due to a still-forming brain. Add on top of that drugs that block out or intensify emotions, and you've got a problem.

That was one thing -- and still remains an issue -- that always stood in the way of my daughter getting a proper diagnosis. She was continually saturated with THC. It was near to impossible to know for sure what they were dealing with. I ran into this time and time again.

My daughter is a daily weed smoker now (she admits this), and it doesn't even feel like her anymore when we converse. I realize it is her with the shell of drug-induced apathy that I've grown accustomed to, but it surely isn't the same, soft and caring person she is when she was locked up for 4 months. I really miss that person. It's hard for her to even know who she is.

 

[Hound dog]

Bean, very true.

I learned to view bff as the "drugs she used" instead of the person I'd once known and cared deeply for. Because once she used daily.......that is basically what I was dealing with, she was no longer herself in any form. Not only that, the drugs dictated her every move, her every desire, her every emotion and thought. During the last 3 yrs of her life, the drug was her universe. Everything else? Was either viewed as a road block to getting the drugs or as a means to get the drugs, including her own children, family, and friends, as well as total strangers. The influence of drugs can cause a person to behave as if they're psychopathic.....because drugs disconnect the emotional part of the brain and mess it up totally, depending on the drug used.

[QUOTEAnd I know that a very headstrong adolescence + anger + some developmental issues, especially when an addiction is added to the mix, can really present very similarly to psychopathy. And as far as I'm concerned, whether it's outright psychopathy or just a bad mixture of causative influences that effectively & closely simulate psychopathy, either way--if there's violence in the mix--they might as well be one and the same, and should be responded to with equal wariness and very keen concern for one's safety and that of one's other family members. A kid who's not a P but who's in such a state of fury and dysfunction that, for 30 minutes, he's acting exactly like a P *might as well be a P* for that period of time. Which means that you need to protect yourself and your loved ones just as if he were a P. ][/QUOTE]

Very very sound advice.

 

[Star*]

mrsam-

Thank you so much for -as Paul Harvey would say - "the rest of the story". I also believe your perceptions could be correct if there is more going on, but I do believe that an interesting read for you would be a book called Mapping co written by - Dr. Wilton Hellams. If for no other reason, the man has years of experience dealing with P's that are in prisons within prisons. His unique perceptions into the minds of P's at a young age and even in teenage years is quite keen. If there were possibly a change of direction for your nephew? Perhaps something in there would offer a viable line of communication for your family to seek. I still believe that anything is possible. I'm not an eternal optimist - I'm a realist who's optimistic, and prays constantly.

I'm also very glad that you are now part of the family here. I believe that your search, and continued searching is a testament to the love you have for your family. To me it doesn't say you've written your nephew off - it says rather - I'm backing off - but I'm hopeful there is some rock I haven't turned over. Whether it's for the sake of your sister, or your nephew - or whether like me it was for the sake of documenting so that if the worst ever did come to pass - I could come back and say "I asked you all for help and you did nothing." This was my actual letter to the Governor of our state when I was begging for help - my letter was direct, and poignant. If nothing else it scared them to death - that a child of my sons age could be this out of control, and everyone turning a blind eye while I was begging for help. I left it in their hands - I got the help I asked for almost immediately. For that? I thank myself. If there is a chance that my son will have a chance or a change in his behaviors - he can thank himself. The work was his.

As far as the drugs? Bean I think you are absolutely correct. If I hit the lotto tomorrow I think one of my purchases would be an island in the middle of the ocean where any child of ours would be taken and dropped off - and left. Food and water - shelter and THAT's it. Nothing else - Supervisors - counselors - no way out. And they wouldn't come off until they had a brand new plan. I swear I would do it. I loathe drugs. I'm so sorry for your girl. She makes me angry for the pain she brings you - but the pain she brings herself for wasting her own life? Makes me just sad.

I'm just sending out hugs today - For everyone

 

[AHF]

Isn't part of the problem that supposedly the brain comes to maturation sometimes around the age of 25, but that IF the problem is not one of maturation, IF we're talking about psychopathology or something else that will haunt our difficult children and us and their families all their lives, failing to address it BEFORE the age of 25 is pretty much a guarantee that the uphill battle after that point will be so steep as to be nigh impossible? I have a friend with an addict son whom she supports via a therapist-on-call setup and an apt etc.--and good for her, she's wealthy so she can afford years of this--and she says he is now, at the age of 28, starting to come around. But the opposite could just as easily have been true, that she hemmorhaged $$ in the hope of his maturation only to find that cutting him off at 23 wold have been the wiser course.

 

[elizabrary]

I'm really glad I read this thread. My daughter is a master manipulater- goes on rages, gets intimidating and she is a tiny thing, but so scary when she gets like this. Got in numerous physical fights when she was younger. The only way I deal with it is to totally cut her off. If she's on the phone I hang up, if she's near me I leave. But this post made me realize this is NOT normal behavior, which I had completely forgotten. Good Lord- it makes me sad to see where I am, but glad to find this place to help get my head straight. I also never talk to anyone else about the behavior because it makes me feel ashamed that this is my child and this is how she treats her mother. She wasn't raised like that, so how did this happen?

 

[Star*]

AHF - (any one else who wants to address this differently feel free to disagree this is my opinion)

My stand is this - based on our experience and what we were told by countless therapists, doctors and our own understanding of what we read.
When we suggest therapy, for anyone? We don't feel that it is EVER too late for ANYONE. However 'catch them young' to change the brain and behaviors of psychopathy and mapping is what I try to get across to parents when I suggest for anyone to get your child into therapy. A lot of times people wait until the child is 5,6,7 before addressing the behaviors of an outrageous toddler. I did this. I knew my sons behaviors were going down-hill when he was three and a half and four years old. The problem in my family dynamic was that I had a husband at the time that was a psychopath and didn't believe in counseling. So I snuck around, got therapy, and left him. I got myself and my son into therapy asap. Even WITH 15 years of thearapy and RTCs, countless, doctors, medications, phychiatrists, psychologists et. al behind my son? He still made very poor decisions that ended him up in jail, in trouble at school dropped out, at home, in your face behaviors, defiant to a near uncontrolable level. As parents you sit back after all that we did and you think - What's left? Is it genetic? But I literally could NOT ever say there wasn't anything I never did - I did it all to help him up to that point EXCEPT throw him out and let life kick him in the pants, and detach from him -and take that horrible step that no parent wants to take because you sit there thinking - what if's. What if he dies because I did this? What if he ends up in prison the rest of his life without my shadowing and supervision? What if he never talks to me? What if I never see him again? These are very real fears, and part of you has to find it deep down inside of yourself to say - WHAT IF it makes him grow up and is the best thing I ever did?

The other part to my suggestions of therapy 'constantly' at any age is while I do feel that looking at a 25 year old man who has never had therapy and has exhibited outrageous behavior all of his life to his parents, and they are just NOW getting around to throwing their hands up in the air and saying "You know what? We've had it! What do we do now?" Well, my thoughts are simple enough - WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN THE LAST 25 years? I mean the kid did not JUST get this way, and you have obviously either stuck your head in the sand for 25 years and you can blame yourself for ignoring every single sign there was and possibly every person that has more than likely offered a suggestion that something was MORE than wrong with your child, then teen, then man. OR this is something that just snapped in your kid in the last couple of years which would require a more indepth look and would make me suspect something like schizophrenia, or some other psychoses which would need a professional diagnosis. Also, if this WAS the case in EITHER event? Scenario 1.) If you've ignored a child for 25 years that has behavior THAT bad and just now are waking up to the fact that he needs help - YOU need help too - get to therapy, because at 25 years of age to JUST begin therapy- those behaviors and habits are REALLY going to be engrained, but like ANY OTHER behavior? If the person that has these behaviors WANTS to change - therapy can help. If they DO NOT want to change? It could be some help - but not likely and to just start at that age and NOT want help? I would say those patterns are pretty set, and less likely to change any if at all. So no - to force a 25 year old to go to thearapy who doesn't want to go? No, not going to help or change anything.

My point with younger children and therapy? My son was forced to go. Some people think that's wrong. I think I was his Mom, and I knew what was best for him. We did anger management, family therapy, art therapy, counseling, regular talk therapy, EMDR therapy, lots of different therapy. Did it make a difference? Some. Was it dramatic? Not really. Did I get immediate results? Nope. Did I ever get results? Absolutely. When did I see them? When he got out on his own, at 20. It's really weird because I thought a lot of the things he learned - he'd either really never use or when he had told me he hated therapy - he meant it - but now I do see him using a LOT of the things he learned IN therapy in his every day life NOW - that he never used. The anger management techniques he did use while he was at home - we both did and that helped a lot. Not to sound cliche - but it's like seeds were planted and his crop is finally coming in - THAT is where I believe his mapping is changed for the better. He also has been given a chance to live and witness the ravings of a full blown socio/psychopath in action and I'm telling you nothing will chance your mind about being the baddest cat in the litterbox quicker than seeing an honest to gosh crazy person up close and personal. Makes you realize bravado is very over-rated and just looks ridiculous - if you could see what anger looks like unleashed? You really don't want to wear it. Kinda like your own scared straight every day.

Hope this answers your question - if not just ask - I'll try to shorten it, but I'm not good with short answers or maybe someone else can give it a whirl.
Hugs
Star.

and elizabray - My son was around it for a very short period of time - from birth to 4 - but NOT raised like this - I'm not sure if it's genetic or not. All I know is that if everything you did didn't change her? Then you are doing the best thing you can to help her. hugs

 

[AHF]

I'm not talking about ignoring someone for 25 years. I'm responding to the Q of whether you throw him or her out on his or her fanny. To the Q of "What if he dies because I did this?", I am trying--with little success--to convince myself that at the age of 21, my difficult child is not going to die because of something I do or fail to do. That all of his choices are leading him somewhere, and that I can have as much patience as humanly possible. But that exercising that patience to (for instance) continue to house and feed a slothful abuser while hoping that therapy and medications and the maturing brain will combine to kick him into gear at age 26 may NOT be the most helpful or risk-free decision. I'm not criticizing anything anyone else is doing. I'm just noting that while the brain may mature late, habits are formed early. If all the positive stuff we do doesn't change those habits, then the risky, negative, door in the face may be either a) the best thing, or b) an unnecessary and painful step that could've been avoided if we'd just stayed the course until the kid "grew up."

 

[AnnieO]

While this may be true, keep in mind that though the brain may mature at 25 - that doesn't mean there is a magic AHA! moment on the 26th birthday.

In some cases, if the Mama and Daddy birds don't kick Baby bird out of the nest, they will stay forever. I mean - come on! Fed, housed, clothed? Meanwhile they can do whatever they please?

IF Onyxx changes in the next 2 years, and can demonstrate said change consistently and without undermining herself, she will be allowed to stay. But not past 21. I was 21 when I moved out of my parents' home - but for the most part, I followed the rules. Even after age 18. My biggest thing is - at 18, yes, you're an adult - ACT LIKE ONE. Responsibilities go right along with freedom.