Hey, Cedar, or anyone interested in FOO (Family of Origin) issues. Cedar, WHY NOW???

Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
But our full attention, and the underlying self talk whirling away beneath the stream of conscious thought, was on our abusers.

Even today, it is my mother's voice I hear when I am preparing for the day. If I am taken unawares, I am so thoroughly convinced of my repulsiveness by the time I am finally ready that I just give up and go wherever I was supposed to be, anyway.

I just go ugly.

Now, here is something new that came up yesterday that I did not recognize the cruelty in until yesterday. So, when I am finally done getting ready, I say: "That's enough, pig." To myself, I say that. And I think that is funny and etc, so I actually leave the mirror just accepting that I have done all I can and that, whatever I look like, it is what it is. It is a line from Charlotte's Web. It is what the farmer says to the pig who is not your usual pig, after all. And the farmer is putting the pig in his place.

"That's enough, pig."

So that is an interesting thing.

I have blue eyes. Very nice ones. ("A very nice one.", like the French have in the Monty Python clip.) My hair is waist length. I was a redhead. It is fading rather beautifully into white most days, unless I am heavy into contempt that day. Then, my hair just looks ugly and stupid and foolish and forever out of control. I am about five foot two. I weigh around one hundred ten pounds. What with yoga and ballet and karate, I still have an athlete's musculature, flexibility, and strength. An aging athlete, but you know what I mean. I am not pudgy unless I am having a bad day, in which even my feet are totally absolutely ugly. So when I am depressed? I always paint my toenails in vibrant colors. And as I am usually appearance-fixated, my pedicure, until just the past months, has been flawless.

I mean, the polish is still perfect, but by the time I actually do a full pedicure now, I have to really put some time into it. And I hate having professional manicures, and have never had a professional pedicure.

And I hate it when D H touches my ugly feet.

So how could I look repulsive? Even on really bad days, and we all have them. That is what D H says: "Well, you don't look as good today as usual, but you are still whatever and blah and blah."

But I can see only the most terrible things.

Copa, I remember you describing yourself harshly, too.

I remember the first time I described myself here as pretty, and as enjoying that, and what a change that was for me.

So those are interesting things. To understand that even our appearances, which we can see with our own eyes and which we see and hear reflected in the words and attitudes and reactions of others, cannot hold a candle to what our abusers breathed into us regarding ourselves.

What in all the hells that ever were do we believe about things we cannot see, and do not see validated from those around us.

And there is the answer to why we appear overly attached to our appearances. This may be the answer to people addicted to plastic surgery and never content with the results until they don't look like themselves anymore.

Maybe this is at the heart of Bruce Jenner's obsession with becoming female.

What is real. That is the question we ask. What is real. And that is why we think appearance is the only value we bring to the table. Because that is a true thing we sort of know about ourselves unless we switch into ugly between the time we leave home and the next time we catch a glimpse of ourselves in a mirror somewhere.

And that is why that incident with my mother at WalMart felt traumatic enough that I have never forgotten how it felt to hear her saying the words she was saying while her eyes were saying something else.

Darn it.

I wish I'd known this when I really was still cute.

Drat.

Cedar
 

Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
I think I am blaming and punishing myself.

I think so too, Copa. That happens to me too. When I cannot find the answer, I turn on myself. And do you know what? There is my mother, right there in my thinking where I am defenseless before her, telling me I am exactly correct in believing myself somehow responsible.

Once she is in? Then mom in my head just radiates wordless hatred. That is easiest for mom in my head. We both know what she means. Plus, I am pretty good with words. So mom in my head just goes straight for the amygdala.

Or whatever that part is where emotions are generated.

I was the broken and vulnerable hero, and always, I had an inner confidence.

This was a true representation.

My son has this same confidence. And the same sense of being broken and vulnerable. But so far he has not shown the need or the desire to triumph.

He's battling an addiction now, Copa. And as strong as you made him, and even with all the tools you have given him, an addiction is a monstrously strong thing.

The question, is why did I need to me to keep such control and power in my son's life, even though I had a great deal of independence and autonomy in my own life since an early age?

Lack of confidence in him?
Lack of confidence in myself?
The lives of one or both of my parents?
My experience as independent?
Wanting to compensate for what I had lacked from one or another parent through my son?
Using my son to meet my own needs, of one thing or another?

All of these are possible. And I will pay attention to each of them, at some point.

You did not keep control over him, Copa. You are his mom. Until drug use began, things were being met and managed and new things were tried and he was responsive and you were responsible and that is how it is supposed to be.

I found ten million reasons too that might be "it", that might be how I did this to my kids, Copa. But this is what I learned about that: Brene Brown writes that humans are hard wired for challenge. If you look around, if you think of stories in the news, if you see how, world over, humans make the best of whatever situation they find themselves in. (Music in concentration camps; the sharing of what food there is instead of cannibalism; the kindness extended here on the site.)

So that is true.

Our children did have that hard wiring as kids. They would never have learned to walk without it. Falling down and falling down and finally walking and then, running or riding their bikes or whatever their challenges were.

So whatever we did Copa, and however scientific sounding the theories we use to condemn ourselves when our children are suffering, as long as we did not do what was done to us, we were good enough moms. good enough is all that is required, because human beings are born hard wired for challenge. Everything here on Earth comes into life hard wired for challenge. Life is a hard thing, is a struggle for energy and space and breeding partners.

Addiction is a monstrously cruel thing.

That is the ultimate truth at the end of it. Whatever we did that was not perfect, whoever we were that was not perfect (or that was too perfect, or that was chaotically perfect) was good enough.

So I would like you to be kinder to yourself in that way, Copa.

There is not an answer for you, there in those increasingly complex and ever more unprovable theories.

There was no answer there for me either. But until I could let go of the guilt for what was happening to my children? I could not stop enabling.

I couldn't do it.

Just as until I can let go of the last vestiges of guilt or responsibility or shame that were my abuser's bequest to me? I will not be able to see, or to value, or to cherish, or to take joy in, the wonder of my own existence.

Please try to be kinder to Copa. I cherish her.

You are going to come through this, Copa.

I could not leave fast enough for my mother. That I am aware of she suffered not at all from an empty nest. To her children were responsibilities and burdens that she could well do without. No kids in the house to her meant more for her.

I think our mother's did suffer from empty nest. But they missed the same things they cherished, as we all do when change occurs in our lives. The difference for our mothers is that rather than images of cookie baking or babies in the sunshine? Our mothers miss having victims to hurt; they missed having someone to play with in the very special ways our mothers liked to play. In the dark of the night? They found themselves alone with their demons.

My father was a fantasy that I longed for because my life with my mother and especially my stepfather was so difficult.

My father resurfaced when I was 16 and I saw the reality. He was a dissolute, morally compromised and sadistic man.


I am sorry, Copa. We were discussing this kind of thing with our Baklava grand just last night. How hurtful and confusing it is to see the father. How utterly shocking, and how dirtied it is, to lose the fantasy and be confronted with what it is instead.

It was a whole other level of betrayal that even I have never experienced.

And so I tell her the story again about when she was born, and about how I wished then that I'd known how much I was going to come to love her, and about how surprised we were, how we were so taken absolutely by surprise that, given what we knew of her father, at her beauty, at the way we came so to cherish her, at how pleased and happy we were to come to learn her and to cherish her for her specialness and her bright intelligence. And I tell her that we never once suspected, we had no way of knowing, that she could possibly have been destined to be who she is becoming, who she is creating of herself, against all odds.

And those things are true.

Nobody had a Dad like my father (or my mother for that matter.)While gifted with looks, charm, great intelligence, he lacked the character to make something of himself and his life. Instead, he sunk steadily lower. The trajectory of my father's life was relentlessly downwards. Emerging horribleness. Degradation. Unrelenting decline. As much as he could, he took me with him. Did I fear on some level the same thing for my son?

I never wanted to live as my father but I was attracted to some of the same things as he, to the night, to marginal people, to danger, etc. Later in life I substituted travel and working in prisons to satiate this interest but as a younger woman, I flirted with people who did things: bars nightlife punk drugs crime.

The Baklave granddaughter did, Copa. He died of drink when she was 16. She was with him when he died, as he died.

Other than when she was a baby and a toddler, and our daughter would take her child and leave our home to go back to this horrible person, and to take our tiny granddaughter with her, when ever the nasty old thing got out of jail...it was the third time in her life she had seen him.

Baklava granddaughter is working through the enormity of it, Copa. She is learning what is real about the world. It is very harsh. For Baklava grand, it is a very harsh, very terrible sad world.

But she is doing so well, Copa.

She will be here with us two weeks.

As we do have company here, I cannot post at my usual outrageous length. I will post tomorrow.

Copa, I am so sorry. I have a different picture now, of how you too must have been at sixteen, at twenty, and at twenty two.

Ouch, Copa.

I am so sorry. Did you not have grandparents to love you no matter what, Copa?

I wish that for you. I hope that you did, Copa.

Cedar
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
I have grown up, and this may be true for you too, with a sense of hyper-awareness for the bad things; I pay entire attention to the bad signals. In a way, I am still listening, as I did when I was eight or when I was nine, for the signals that tell me my life is not my own and that what needs to be paid attention to is my mother, and not me.
I love this. It's so true. In fact, I don't know about you, but I thought t hat the idea of putting myself first...ever...was selfish and, of course, E. had called me over and over again "selfish. All you think about is yourself."

It was never true.

But I was afraid to put myself first and I got into all sorts of interesting trouble trying to help people who had not asked for my help. Then I felt even worse.

Or trying to help and having it turn out wrong.

Familiar or not??

Hyperviglence yes, especially regarding anyone from FOO. I'm not sure why, but I cared more than the "normal" person does about whether or not my FOO was upset with me, which, of course, they were most of the time. And I didn't realize, like somebody who was not abused would have, that you walk away from toxicity, no matter who it is. Other people, who had lived saner lives, knew without being told that if somebody treated you like crapola, you need to say good-bye and forget about them. I carried this naivety into my first marriage, although it was a haven of love considering how my childhood had been. At least I knew he loved me. But he wasn't good for me, but I didn't know it.

Because I didn't know it, I adopted two children with him. I thought we were happy.

Until I knew *I* wasn't. I was getting really depressed. I won't go into the particulars with my ex because it was obviously nothing I should have put up with, but I did because I thought I was worthless. Plus ex and I have actually sat down, had that talk, and removed any hostility we feel toward one another. At least I believe this is so for him as well as for me.

I finally joined Codependents Anon. and learned to take care of myself. That it is not a crime. That it doesn't mean I'm the most selfish b*tch on the planet. That this was a good thing, even for my children. I'm still not as good at it as I want to be, but I'm better.

By the time it was time for Second Husband, if indeed there would be one and not just a partner, I made a good decision. Interestingly, by that time I was having little to do with E. And Thing 2 was in and out. My husband,. very early on, told me to just forget my relationship with her because she was obviously a few fries short of a Happy Meal, but I couldn't listen. I couldn't forget. I kept letting her in with open arms. Because anyone in my FOO was better than me and if they were kind enough to talk to me, I was going to let them, regardless of the history, which predicted the future. And with each cut off, I was devastated.

More time wasted I can't get back, but, at this late date, it won't happen again. Maybe the other never intended on ever contacting me again. I don't know for sure. Her no contacts never lasted in the past. But it is my terms now and there will be no contact ever because I'm so much happier without her and I have all I need family-wise without her. And the other other. Him. I haven't had him in my life for a long time. I did not read his letter. But he had no right to send me one, in my opinion. I don't care what his therapist told him to do. Usually they tell you to write it and don't send it.

If I had read it, I'm sure I'd have wasted time being uber-angry at him too, but instead it's more apathy.

Cedar and Copa, our brains are on "fight or flight" because that's how we grew up. Not only was E. mean to me most of the time, she was hysterical and nervous when she wasn't being mean. That was a nightmare for a sensitive, nervous, scared-of-everything k id. I would hear her on the phone crying when she thought somebody was sick. She would call the doctor all the time. As an adult, in my 20's and early 30's, I was a major hypchondriac. And I had stomasch ailments, with the worst being years of IBS. I thought I had cancer all the time. I thought I had a brain tumor, multiple sclerosis, schizophrenia, you name it. It was an awful way to live. My early young adult years were not good.

Cedar and Copa, these are struggles I probably would have had anyway. I am convinced I was born with a sensitive nervous system and of course been proven to have neurological differences. But nothing could make t hem worse like horrible words about myself shouted at me, night raids, and a mother who did know how to act calm around her children. And Thing 1 has a chronic illness so she was a chronic basket case and it showed.

Cedar, the idea that your mother made you and your brother fight gives me the creeps. I don't understand her thinking. Must have been some sadism there. Maybe she thought you liked each other too much so she thought this would cause a rift.

Haha (just a thought, not really a "funny")...E. would have never asked me to fight my bro as I would have won. Ok, not funny at all. Possibly true. But, seriously now, she used trash talk to do the same thing.

I can't tell you how much better it feels to be free. I hope you get that freedom one day. Honestly, I haven't even talked to my dad as much because he reminds me that they exist. That isn't fair so I guess I'll call him now. He never mentions them anymore. He's been really nice, nicer than I've ever known him to be.
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
Did any of your mothers ever claim to be women of God? Mine didn't claim to be Godly. Her Gods were human beings, like Golden Child and Uncle and eventually Boyfriend.Just wondering. Thanx.
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
I am so sorry. Did you not have grandparents to love you no matter what, Copa?

I wish that for you. I hope that you did, Copa.
I did, Cedar. I had wonderful Grandparents from the old country who spoke Yiddish and doted on us. Their lives too had been traumatic so each had a little craziness (or a lot); they loved us and that was enough.

Baklava granddaughter is working through the enormity of it, Copa. She is learning what is real about the world. It is very harsh. For Baklava grand, it is a very harsh, very terrible sad world.
I hope that my story will give you some peace. It sounds as if her character and her gifts are so great, that she has been able to use each of the tragedies she has faced to hone her great spirit and humanity and will continue to do so.

As she gets older, I think, her personal world will become less harsh and terrible, as she replaces old memories of things over which she had no control, with new memories of efficacy and strength. As she sees how others respond to her wisdom and kindness and comes to understand that this is a great power she will feel very strong, brave and wonderful, I think. It is a great and rare gift to understand the pain that others experience. I believe her life will be very special as she grows into this gift.
 
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Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
Did any of your mothers ever claim to be women of God? Mine didn't claim to be Godly. Her Gods were human beings, like Golden Child and Uncle and eventually Boyfriend.Just wondering. Thanx.

No but my sister is fanatically fundamentalist Christian. When I spoke to her about this last, she had left the little church she and her husband attended, and in which he as a deacon or an elder or something. He still attends. She no longer attends church, believing the Lord walks with her.

She actually said that to me.

That she walks with the Lord. (Meaning she cannot be wrong.)

That the Lord may see fit to heal our strained relationship because she won't. (This was two years ago, over the issue of excluding my brother and my insistence that if mom wouldn't contact him monthly, she should.) This kind of thinking is what may give her the feeling of accusatory authority with which she has been speaking for the past ~ really, since my mother has been there with her during the winter months.

My mom is a lapsed Catholic. She is quite bitter about religious belief. I believe that however she was hurt, it sullied what was once probably a deep and sincere belief. She is curious about arguing the spiritual belief systems of others in an angry or accusing or contemptuous way. I think perhaps she believes as a Catholic still and is looking for proof that religion and religious belief are fantasies. She has not, to my knowledge, explored spiritual belief systems, though she did read, and was interested and did receive synopsis of, many of Karen Armstrong's books. (Which are beautifully written, fascinating explorations of spiritual belief, and of spirituality, from the perspective of a woman who was a nun for most of her life, developed a crisis of faith, and left the sisterhood. Karen Armstrong writes well researched works in comparative religion ~ Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism, and Islam, as well as books about women in the Church, and about what it meant to her to have been a nun and to have left the sisterhood.) While my mother was with us during the one month she would spend there, those are the things we read and discussed. When she is with my sister, she attended the fundamentalist church my sister and her husband attended. I am not sure whether she attends now that my sister has stopped. Prayer is an accepted part of daily life in my sister's home. She has a beautifully done Bible quotation painted onto the wall in her kitchen.

I am very much into reading the deeper, gnostic or mystic or source belief systems of any and every spiritual belief system. I find all of it beautiful beyond words. Each Tai Chi class consists of a reading from the ancient Chinese philosophers. Lao Tzu and two others that I cannot remember now, but not Confucious.

I have studied Jewish wisdom quotes, Joseph Campbell, ancient Hindu beliefs, Buddhism, gnostic writings. Not the Kabala.

Here is something beautiful:

Both you and the other came naked into the world, and will eventually sleep in the dust, together.

That is a Jewish wisdom quote I found when I was young and in school the first time. I have remembered and loved it all of my life. It is so true.

I've read Pema and Eckhart. Sometimes, I take a Bible study when we are South with a woman whose name I've forgotten. I love what I know of Native beliefs, and have attended ceremonies in which I swear the medicine man called a wind you could feel sweep the room. I have felt that same wind feeling in Benedictine environments.

And I love the Benedictines, of course.

I have done many Benedictine retreats.

So, now you know.

D H is a lapsed Catholic who doesn't feel one way or another about what seems right to other people.

Cedar

Both my kids were Baptized and Confirmed Catholic. Like mine, their curiosity about spiritual matters is wide ranging, but they have no determined or fanatic belief system. If I were going to describe what I think they believe, it would be Buddhism. They are not Buddhists. They have that feel to them, my children. Among the things our son has given me are a beautifully carved Buddha, and a set of porcelain Chinese figures.
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
No but my sister is fanatically fundamentalist Christian.
This is a BIG RED FLAG. Not all fundamentalist Christians are phony and use it to act better than others, but I've met enough who are. They can't be touched because god is on their side and you are a heathen. I have this with Goneboy. It is uncomfortable to be around him because of all his religious judging, even going so far as to believe Lutherans, Methodists, Catholics (especially Catholics), and other denominations are not Christians. They interpret the Bible their way and make absolutes out of subjective scriptures. It is in my opinion unhealthy when one goes this far and have been on the receiving side of it with Goneboy. There is little you can do about it when somebody is so sure that he is in the moral right and you are in the moral wrong for, say, getting divorced. Or having pre-marital sex. Goneboy used to tell Princess that her reltionship with her boyfriend would never last and that he was using her for sex.

Well, eleven years later...which is longer than Goneboy has been married....

Just saying.

I am tolerant of all religions and beliefs as long as people respect mine and don't try to convert me or don't act like they are more righteous BECAUSE of THEIR beliefs. Or make it clear that our beliefs, or lack thereof, are wrong and doom us to a hell of their belief system.

This helps me understtand your sister so thanks.
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
That she walks with the Lord. (Meaning she cannot be wrong.)
Goneboy very much believes that he has interpreted the Bible as it should be and also believes he can not be wrong regarding moral issues because he follows the Bible. He did not go so far as to say he won't go to church because God walks with him and he and his wife and I'm sure his kids do attend. But this is a major wall between us that could never be breached and is one reason I am glad to let him go with my love and blessings he live a good life. From what I hear, he is and I am glad. But we, at the end, were having numerous moral conversations about other kids I have and I just don't see them the way he does all because they do not share his tough morals. He even condemned me for my divorcing his father as a sin against God...

He is free to think so. I don't mind that he does. But I don't want to hear about it. I will never agree.
 

Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
Or not. Sometimes, I believe that the only way I could end up having the strength and tenacity and other attributes that have carried my little family through these tough years was... to come out of a really tough situation to start with. The difference between us, and the previous generation(s), is that we have chosen to build differently on our past than they built on theirs.

You make a good point, IC.

As I go through this recovery of self process, the most chilling aspect of what happened to me, to each of my sibs, to all of our grands, is that it is ongoing, still. It's still happening. That blows me away. When I stop seeing my mom or my sister through their lying eyes and begin to actually see what they are doing, it leaves me feeling confused and physically ill.

It looks so much like evil, IC.

And it's ongoing, and that is another part I wasn't seeing. I was being hurt, to this day, by their odd transgressions against decency large and small, and I was still taking on the shame of that, somehow. I was still believing I should have been able to help us all. They are choosing to hurt instead of to heal to this minute in time we are all in together, now. It isn't that they don't see. They do see. They do know. As surely as we have chosen not to abuse, our mothers could have done the same then or now.

It's still going on, still as vibrantly toxic as ever by their choice.

I go over and over the time my mom had someone take the tire rimming machine out of my dead father's garage to hurt my brother, to break something in him even now, when he is nearing 60 years of age. Really, at this phase of my recovery I am seeing the heart-stopping cruelty in so much of what goes on in my FOO to this day. I am connecting the dots in the way my own psyche works. I am remembering the emotional tones of my memories of childhood, adolescence, young womanhood and even throughout my adult life with my family of origin to this day and realizing they are traumatic memories, IC. The feeling tones of my life with my mother and sibs are that swollen, bumbling, bleakness that comes from having been hurt and shamed and taunted and it is ongoing, today.

That is the part that throws me.

It is happening, today.

I think I had believed that if only my mother hadn't had so many children, or if they had been born further apart, or if conditions had been different in her life or her marriage or if her in laws had been different or... that she wouldn't have done what she did. But as I've gone through this process of making myself see what I know, I've found that she does know what she does. She has to know; she had to know all along. It is ongoing, it is happening, with every bit of hatred she can pour into it, today. She continues to do harm instead of extending comfort to this day. Intentionally turning away from the grandchild born with spina bifida when there was no longer the thrill of outperforming the child's mother, when there was no accolade to be taken in being the child's courageous grandmother at the Shriner's Hospital or in telling any and everyone that she did those things, that this is who she was. She shunned that granddaughter once the reflected glory days for my mother were gone. She hurt her own grandchild that way with determined intent after telling the grandchild all the terrible "true" things about what she would never have in her life because of her illness.

Who does these kinds of things. And why?

I did not know that when I began this process.

I knew there were broken places and I did not want to be broken, did not want to be an enabler anymore out of some weakness, some old trauma of mine. What I found instead, intertwined with old scars, was the living virulence of present moment abuse. I find an exquisitely focused determination to destroy the family through altering its history, through fomenting hatred and separation between sibs and cousins and wives. Here is something I haven't told anyone yet. My mom was into geneology. She muddled around for the longest time in the history of her family of origin and then, started on my father's. So, direct line through the son of Mary Boleyn, that is my father's family. Which is interesting and fun to know and etc. That is why my mother is trying to destroy the feel of the family history for future generations of this family line. Because she literally hates that there was anything special to be found in my father's genetic line. I cannot imagine how long she waited, savoring the knowledge that only she knew and so, would never tell any of us. And then, when she did tell us, I can remember her, with such grandiosity, telling me and anyone else who would listen who I "was" based on her records. She would freaking introduce me that way to any person to whom she introduced me. And she was so pissy about it when no one found it more than interesting. No one found her bombshell anything more than interesting and she hated that. She hates herself, she hates her mate, her parents, her children and grands. My sister has memberships not only in Daughters of the American Revolution but in some other organization which requires blood ties earlier than that. They think this matters; they think it tells my sister and her line who they are in a way that elevates them. I could do that too, of course. It isn't that I don't think it would be a cool thing to do, it is that I am not focused enough on those kinds of identifiers to actually do it. It is a process, even with my mother's information on geneology.

My mother knows what she is doing. There is a trick in here, a hurt somewhere.

And I am so surprised; so surprised.

I have commented before on her elation at the story of this family, the family line of her dead husband, being hers, because all the players but her were dead now. I posted about the murder plot my mother is hatching to this day against my paternal grandmother's memory. My mother has said, to my face, that my paternal family line is "stupid" in the sense of not smart. That they are worthless, weird ~ choose your poison word of the day.

And she has the stories to prove it, and has been pouring them into my ears since my father's death, since I have taken my time and my husband's time and given it to her, to talk to her every night for as long as she wanted about anything she wanted.

And she picked that, IC.

And that is what she picked; to shame me through my own family line, to leave me feeling I am somehow come of unsavory blood. And that is how you destroy a child and her children and all the things that may come next for this family line, after she is all grown up and grown away.

That is just how you do it.

Leave your own sixty something daughter with a sense of distaste when she thinks about the people she came from. She will pass that on.

For us, for those raised by people who hated enough to destroy their own families on every level for all of time, who consume our time that we give them just to do it, just to take it away from our families ~ right into their old ages ~ that we could ever have developed a sense of determined intent regarding those things we were determined to pursue, that we could ever have developed a sense of efficacy, that we could ever come to understand that and believe in our bones that challenge is just how it is and that we are more than equipped to meet it is a miracle of the first order. We were hated, nurtured on hatred and threatened and shamed and humiliated on every level, on levels we don't even see or understand to this day.

And I don't know whether I can give you a sense of my frustration and rage with it, IC. Given that any of us survived it, that any of us are even functional, given that unrelenting intensity of hatred and contempt there truly is no telling what any of us might have done had we been raised in even a neutral environment, let alone a supportive, encouraging environment or at least one where we were physically safe.

We are walking wounded IC. The people with whom we work, our mates, our peers they are not broken like this, IC. But somehow, we still did what we did. That is why I really do believe, and I absolutely do wonder, what we might all have accomplished, those of us who have come through it, had we had supportive, encouraging people around us to teach us who we were and to celebrate with us what we might do.

We truly are walking miracles.

We are.

Kindness is the core of it.

That we chose to be kind even before we had words for that concept.

That is how we created who we are of ourselves. That simple series of choices to be kind, though we could as easily have chosen to destroy. It is a genetic thing, that we are as we are. Orson Scott Card writes science fiction. His talent, his look at how to live a life, has to do with this concept: Tying a knot. Creating a new thing, as opposed to untying the things others have created.

I like the simplicity in that concept, and the truth in it.

For you too IC, your life has been so much more than just making a different choice than your parents may have made.

Cedar

It is such a waste, IC. We are talking about precious children, about relationships between a father and his children, about the story the family will tell itself through time based on the material my mother leaves behind, like SWOT's mother did too, reaching out of the grave to condemn her own child and damn her family line.

They mean it, IC. Predators possess full knowledge and intent. They know full well what they are doing, just as my sister knew what she was doing to my child. They are who they are and they will never stop. Right to my mother's elation at being the last guy standing, and at being able to tell the family story any way that she wants.

So she is creating a murder; she is creating a stupid, sleazy farm hand girl out of my own tiny, blonde and blue-eyed grandmother who was so magical to me, who became one of the women welders during the second world war, who raised her sons on her own, who loved her grands. And my other could have chosen to emphasize any of those things, in her story of the family line that she is putting together through geneologic research. She is putting together the pieces of a slut hired to work the kitchen enticing the oldest son, the son who would inherit, and she is creating a murder so the son could inherit. She is doing this with innuendo an suggestion, IC.
She is doing that with malice, with intent. She is doing it to bring hatred sizzling down onto whatever family member reads her geneology material in future.

And my mother is tiny and very beautiful, and you would never once suspect any of it.

***

She is like, geneology crazy. She fixated on it for years and years, threatened each of her children with burning it all because no one was kissing her ass about it, even after she found the Boleyn stuff. She only changed her mind when, with the advent of computer systems to trace geneology, there was no threat in her threat of burning the records she'd traced.

Keep firmly in mind that my mother threatened us with burning, almost routinely.

There was conscious choice made each time an incidence of abuse occurred instead of an incidence of healing, IC. The nature of the abuse changed over time but not the contempt or cruelty in it. My mother used even my father's death to turn that wheel of hatred a little more unerringly toward cruel, toward contempt, toward dull rage.

And I am so surprised.

Cedar
 
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Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
"That's enough, pig."

The correct quote is: "That'll do, pig."

I felt so badly for myself about that, yesterday.

That is how it feels to heal. We recognize where we are self-sabotaging. We see the hurt in even the things that were healthier than the things we grew up knowing about ourselves, and telling ourselves about ourselves. It is impossible to see ourselves with compassion until we have right witness. Prior to a witness who cherishes us on principle even if we have never met, even if we will never meet, which is what we do here, I think we cannot undo that damage.

Cedar
 

Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
When I saw him, we went to dive bars and drank.

Baklava grand was telling the story of the second time she saw her father. He gave her first toke on a joint. Not just that she smoked marijuana with her father the first time she saw him when she was thirteen, but that he gave her first toke on a joint he had rolled.

An honor, from a father to his daughter.

When I separated myself from my father, and he finally understood that I wanted no contact he turned on me.

Copa...can you see yourself in this vignette through your own eyes instead of through the eyes, the heart, the mindset of, your abuser?

When, against every tender childhood belief that your father, your savior, your protector, out there in the world and who you would one day find and make family with come hell or come high water...can you see the courage, the outrageous honesty with yourself in that, Copa? Can you see, as I can, the vital core of who you are, of who you were determined to be, as you went about saving your mother and mothering your sister? What is of value here is not what they thought. We already know the gist of how they are going to think about and present reality, whatever the details of any given incident. What is of value here, what should be noted here is your courage in doing it, in insisting that it was possible to change everything for yourself, and for your family.

Instead Copa, their toxicity changed you. In a very real way, you've been poisoned. If you live, if and as you reclaim yourself, you will develop immunity to the toxins already ingested. Future toxins will still be poison for you and for me and for SWOT, too.

As I've gone through this or that regarding my FOO, I am so surprised, so disheartened, by the neverendingness of the toxicity, of the choice to toxify all things; to toxify every smallest strength remaining to any of us.

His death was hastened by drugs.

We have learned, here on the site, that our addicted children have changed in ways that make it seem like they must have been kidnapped. There is no empathy. There are lies, and there is the forever need of money. There is blatant hatred of the most roaringly unfathomable kind.

Hatred for their own mothers, for their own fathers, that takes our breath away, that leaves us reeling and punch drunk and vulnerable in a thousand ways.

Could this be what happened to your father?

Could those words he chose to describe the incredible good fortune that was his in having been blessed with a daughter who cherished him no matter what have been the same twisted interpretation of family and of cherishing that our own addicted children spew onto us?

Could it be that had your father managed somehow to quit, those words and those stories and those interpretations would never have come into being?

It was addiction for your father too, Copa.

Try so hard Copa, not to let his addiction destroy that strong, hopeful something that strengthened you all of your life until you entered their poisonous realm, again.

Here is something to counteract this. It is a quote from a poster here who posts on P.E. as Headlights Mom.

Huh. I can't remember just how it goes now. The gist of it is that if we can find even one speck of gratitude, if we can remember one gift, if we can fasten onto a beautiful, perfect smile or a remembered kindness, then we can hold that moment in our hearts. That is our true person. Everything else is the addiction, and can be safely disregarded lest we grow bitter, lest we grow cold to him.

Those last words were an approximation of the flavor of Headlights Mom's post.

Don't enable, blame, hate or take responsibility for your father in your memories now, Copa. If you search for the one, honest moment, you will find it. When you have it, none of the other things will matter. You will know who your father was, what the essence of him was, before his life hurt him into what he became.

I have that imagery of my mother.

That is how I am strong enough to see the other things.

Lest I grow cold....

There were two prices I paid, as I see it of having distanced myself from my father. The first, he turned on me. The second, he went to the bottom and died.

For what it's worth, I understand that neither was not my fault.

Fault is not the issue. You have no way of knowing what good was achieved simply in your having been there for your father.

As there was good in what you did, in sacrificing all things, in risking and losing that strong, stable core of self you had gone on to create in your life, to take care of your mother, to see that she would not die alone and unloved.

But like my mom does too Copa, she hurt you to the degree she was able.

Back to fathers. I am not so good about fathers. My father was a good man. He was broken through his relationship with my mother. I think that is what I see, now. But he did betray me, Copa. I had to acknowledge the flavor of that truth before I could see him clearly.

***

You know something good happened there, in those times you had with your father, or he would not have found that time he spent in your presence a valuable enough thing to have had to disparage and dirty it so completely.

You may never know. But that is what I see in his attack on those memories of his time with you. Copa? In that he described his time with you in the way that he did to your brother, I also see that same determination to destroy any possible attempt for you and your brother to create family that I see in my own family of origin.

Nothing to do with you.

Abusers abuse because they are abusers. At the dissolute end of his life, that is who your father became. And all the good things he might have been, the man he might have hoped to be?

All that was lost to, was hollowed out of him by, his addiction.

While gifted with looks, charm, great intelligence, he lacked the character to make something of himself and his life. Instead, he sunk steadily lower. The trajectory of my father's life was relentlessly downwards. Emerging horribleness. Degradation. Unrelenting decline. As much as he could, he took me with him. Did I fear on some level the same thing for my son?

You posted earlier that drugs were a piece of your father's life until he was dead from them.

Could it be that you were seeing what happens to a man consumed by addiction? Could it be that your father was destroyed, was hollowed from the inside out, empathy first and then, integrity, and finally, the capacity to love itself, by his addictions?

Then that was not your father, Copa. That person you found lost his battle and was shamed by the hero he saw in your eyes. By that man he might have been, Copa.

Perhaps he was so deeply shamed Copa, between the hero you knew he was and the life he had wasted. Perhaps it was shame driving those things that he said, trying to push away those true things he saw in his own beloved daughter's eyes before she left him as she'd found him lest she be destroyed, too.

That could be true.

But I really do think that adopting a child who had been affected by some of the circumstances that affected my father...was part of my motivation to adopt my son. A fantasy of rescue is what they call it.

Oh, we all have our reasons for wanting our children. The reality of the child we finally do have makes those reasons we thought we wanted children in the first place seem laughable. It is a hard, scary, demanding thing to take on the responsibility of raising a child. If you'd backed away from it after a few days, then you could accuse yourself now of the things you are accusing yourself of. But that is not what you did.

Know what the thing is that they call it once the woman has committed to loving and cherishing and disciplining and teaching the real, living child she has, whatever her fantasy child represented?

Motherhood, Copa.

You were an excellent mom, or you would not be here on this site.

Your child has an inborn proclivity to addiction I think Copa, based on what you've told us here about his birth parents.

You did nothing wrong. You took him as he was and you loved him in place, and you have kept loving him, right where he was and exactly as he is. Your love for your child and your regret at the terrible things that are happening to him (and to you) shine right through every word that you post.

In my family I was the one who was responsible for my parents. Not vice versa. Was there the unconscious expectation on my part that my son care for me? I am not sure.

D H mom was furious with her kids and the world because she expected, and felt betrayed because, none of her children would take her into their homes. When there were family meetings with the social workers, both before and after her admission to the facility where she lives now, that is the secret she eventually roars out.

That her kids do not love her enough to take care of her now.

And she is angry and ashamed about that.

That is my first observation regarding the quote above. It has to do with legitimacy. It has to do with how it is supposed to be for every family, all over the world. We are living longer now. We are living beyond the capacity of a family to provide what we need.

That still creates conflict, creates deep shame and the anger that attends hurt, in the hearts of our families all over the world where parents are failing during those same years their children are beginning the decline that will result in their own deaths. We are of that age of reflection now. We truly cannot afford to give this ripening time over to the mindless, demanding, neverending tasks of physical care required to responsibly and ethically take on the care of our aging parents.

So, that is the first observation.

Whether that was the thought uppermost in your mind when you decided to change the world for one little boy or not, only you can say. What I can say is that I do not think you were seeing your new son in any remotest version of those ways. To me, it seems that you were presented with a choice about whether this child's life had a value or not. You chose to save him. You changed your life, turned everything toward the child, and toward creating family where there was none, before.

I think that was an admirable choice.

The second observation has to do with what I experienced with my own children. It has to do with what SWOT has experienced with hers too, whether natural born or adopted. If anything Copa, we over-mothered. If anything, we took on too much responsibility, or protected the kids too much. Note that I chose "if anything". Because I really am coming to believe that addiction is at the heart of so much of what happens to us and to our children, and not that there was something so wrong that our children went out looking to destroy themselves, or to hurt us because we were terrible parents somewhere we could never define. It is the addiction that must be dealt with. If at some point after the kids are back to themselves, anyone wants to talk about how they were hurt by our parenting, I will be and even, have been already, willing to listen, to apologize or explain the why behind what I did that they found hurtful.

I was so far from a perfect parent. But I was absolutely a good enough parent.

But those kinds of conversations are very different things than the accusations thrown out by our children while they are addicted.

What happens between ourselves and our children while they are addicted has to do only with hatred, as the addiction, and the terrible need of it, hollows them out. It is best for us to be honest with ourselves regarding these matters, or we will fall, like I did again and again and again, blindly into enabling.

We have to be stronger than we are to do what we are doing, Copa.

But just look at us, doing even that impossible thing, for the sakes of our children.

Isis, right?

He had a huge amount of money. When I was 8 I was going to five star restaurants. We took cabs everywhere. I lived like in the movie Casablanca. Colorful characters. Exotic people.

Yay!!!

Except it wasn't really like that.

It was, Copa.

That man is who your father really was, is the father he intended to be, for you.

On the heroin part...well, I don't know. He did what he had to, and what was there for him to do. That is a piece of how the myriad traps of addiction are set up, too. The money, the lifestyle, the rare wonder of all of it, in the beginning.

You do not need to post about this to us here Copa, but do you know what your father's life was like? Do you know whether he was educated and cherished and taught right from wrong as a child?

Did he come from wealth, or did he choose to create wealth for himself and his children, whatever the cost?

Those would be good questions to consider.

The idea of him more than the reality, was the thing. My prince will come.

Baklava granddaughter has a tea set, a child's tea set, that was one of the few physical representations she had that her father was real, and that he knew her and thought of her. It is here, in our home. She has it to this day and she will always have it, whether it is here, safely stored, or whether she takes it into her own home once she has one.

The other thing that she has, the other concrete proof that he existed, and that he loved her, was a tiny plastic heart.

That was not stored here, and has been lost to time. But when she was a little girl, she had it with her every single time the grands would need to come here, where there was protection, and safe haven.

I wanted you to know this about my grands Copa, because "My prince will come." is a beautiful, is an exactly right, beautiful and strengthening thing that was true. Yet, I sense self contempt in your posting that part, Copa.

You were a cherished little girl. Your father was hollowed out by his addictions and could not save himself, even for you.

Why else would he have wanted you with him, why else would he have thought of you at all, during those wonderful times you remember?

He loved you, Copa. You were like the dream to him that your own son is for you. Or like my children are for me, or like SWOT's are, for her.

That is human, Copa.

You were loved, cherished by your father in that special way only a father can cherish a daughter.

He must have been so proud of you, Copa.

I'm sorry it ended as it did; but no one can take away or tarnish what you had.
Not with your father, and not with your son.

As he aged.

Sadism.

Alcoholism.

Amorality.

Cockroaches.

Drunk.

Cruel.

Lost looks.

Cool.

Dissolute.

Hepatitis.

I hated being in that life.

It was a very hard thing.

Cedar
 

Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
My son blames his birth parents for the fact that he acquired Hep B at birth, was drug exposed, and indeed for the general circumstances of his life at birth and infancy. He blames them for his mental illness. He feels very stigmatized by the way they lived, their drug addiction and the fact that they were ill.

So I think he is trying to some extent in the way he is living to visit and explore some of the circumstances in which his birth parents lived. I think it is as much this as limited capacity on his part to do better, that is responsible for his choices.

Baklava granddaughter and our other granddaughter too, are feeling and responding to and clarifying these issues for themselves at this time.

For both girls, one now 22 and one 16, these are impossibly rotten true things to know.

But they are coming through beautifully. Lots of risky behaviors for sure, as they define themselves through facing, instead of through running away from, what is true.

But they are coming through so beautifully, Copa and SWOT.

I am so proud beyond expressing, the pride I feel in their strength and in their honesty and integrity.

I am.

They are amazingly human people.

Extraordinary, really. I can't imagine how they have been able to come back from the places each has been.

I am serious.

It could also be that he uses his lifestyle choices to both distinguish himself from me and to distance himself from me emotionally because he knows that living in such a way so triggers me.

I do not see that in my grands. I see an intense need to know, an intense need to challenge themselves, to know for themselves whether they are like that, too.

That is what they are about proving now, I think.

Am I alcoholic, a druggy, a worthless female person with no pride and with nothing of which to be proud. Am I vicious, am I violent, am I insane, am I mean. Do I lie.

I think they have to ask those questions before they can legitimately reclaim themselves; before they can know how to see their mother, and their fathers.

Before they can know how to make sense of their lives, and of the things they were named.

I think I am trying to detach. That is to say, to move back enough to allow him to live his life independently, experience consequences and learn; at the same time, to remove myself from experiencing and paying such a high price for the consequences of his acts, and his behaviors.

I think my son is reacting to my move back by testing different ways to keep power over me; at the same time he is responding to this vacuum in the power relationship in a variety of ways. He is punishing me a little bit. He is trying to take control by distancing from me (as opposed to me distancing from him. They call this passive into active, I think.) And I think he is trying to mature.

I know!!! Doesn't it so suck that these things happened to us?!?

Roar.

Whatever. That is where my kids went, so that is where I am, too.

As my Mother died a paradoxical thing happened. In one way her power to hurt me diminished as she became vulnerable and dependent. On the other hand, her power grew as she became more needy, and I became the only person who would or could help her.

Eventually my decisions during this period came to hinge on, who was I and who did I want to be. Could I be strong enough to care for her? Was I strong enough to move close to her? Was I strong enough to not? Could I still love myself if I did not put her first, as she had nobody else?

The months as she died, I took one and than another position in response to these questions, to see what if anything I could do.

I had a fundamental ignorance through it all that I did not at that time understand.

Deciding to love her and care for her, seemed straightforward. The problem was to do so, I gave up defenses erected for a lifetime.

Well, how does this feel: You had erected defenses. Those cold, frozen, Frankenstein places within. But you had not dealt with the issues because, like me until I decided no compassion, you could not even see the parameters of the issues, let alone the core of it. So, when your caring for your mother melted the frozen, you had nothing. Not even those few, paltry defenses you had erected against what they did to you when you were a defenseless little girl who believed everything, every single thing, they ever told you about who you were with an innocent's passionate will to please and to celebrate.

And remember that posting about "That'll do, pig." regarding my efforts to pull myself together for any public (or private) appearance. That was a kindness to myself Copa, compared to what I had been telling myself about myself, although it is probably a true thing that I am an attractive woman. Those were
acceptable words for me, Copa. They slipped right past my defenses, my determination to be kinder because the wordless truths my mother taught me are that virulent, are that vitally present, are that shaming and undetectable, to this minute.

Wordless truths.

I will need wordless prayers then, to counteract and invalidate them. (This was realized and was added here, on the second reading before posting. It is a true thing.)

And I can't even identify them except through the feelings I froze because the hurt of it is wordless. I think that is what is happening, or some version of that is what is happening to you too, Copa.

I would have taken to my bed, too.

But I would not have been able, maybe, to have believed in myself enough to have believed I deserved such a fine thing as a bed. Perhaps, I would have gone homeless.

Maybe this is a key to why daughter seemed determined to be homeless, to take herself there.

Here is a prayer for my daughter. Not going to say what it is. It is a wordless prayer and I love her and wish her well and strong and bright and happy. They say if you make it public, a prayer has more ooomph.

So that is good, then.

Pray for my daughter and grands, and for my son, too. I will do the same.

My answer is some of both. My mother's way of loving was always very attenuated, always limited by her selfishness, that she cared about little beyond herself. Her love could be trumped by her self-interest, of doing hateful things to serve herself.

This is true of my mother too. To the point that, seen from the perspective I am seeing from these days, it looks more like hatred, like some dark, virulent, poisonous thing, than love.

Though I do believe it was my mother's intention to love her babies. What happened to my mother is not who she is. It is who she chose. And since I don't know what was at stake, what was won or lost or killed in my mother, I do not get to judge anything about any of it. I am judge of how what she saw or did or spoke or thought affected and continues to affect, me.

But my mother fought the best battle she knew, or I would not be strong enough to fight this one.

I think this is a true thing.

I would hold strong for my mother if I could know how to do it. I don't. That is just an undeniable fact. There was a time I felt guilty, or responsible, or whatever it was I felt where my mother was concerned.

I don't have that, anymore.

And that isn't a triumph, either.

It is just a thing; a place to stand.

I feel badly for myself, and for all of us. But that is okay.

It is what it is. And it is better to know.

Like SWOT posted to us, we don't get to cheat.

At the same time, when she became vulnerable, I had a Sophie's choice. I had to choose between abandoning her, which would mean I would abandon part of myself--my sense of myself as responsible. Or step up, and at the same time, expose myself to danger, without defense.

cleardot.gif
To sum up, Cedar, my mother's capacity to love always was quite limited. I think she loved me in the way she could. At the end, I accepted that. And I decided to love my mother as she was. As she was dying, what she lacked as a mother was not any longer important. She was my mother. The person who occupied that space in me. I decided to love her as she was. My decision. To love her in place.

Interesting to me that though you seem to have been keenly aware of the cost of what you intended to do for your mother, you do not give yourself credit for the courage it took to do that. You touch on it, and then, you go back to describing your mother. And to describing how things looked from her perspective and not your own. It was a choice and it was a decision and you were aware of the risks, Copa. That is blazing courage, courage and determination come of real, blazing, fiery, Pierre Tielhard de Chardin love.

I know that might be spelled wrong. I don't want to go look for it, now.

As I see it in my grands now, that essential integrity at the core of you, that strong thing that made it impossible for you to be other than you are in your personal and professional, but not your emotional, life ~ that is who you are Copa as surely as that is the true thing my own grands will find in the core of them, too.

That is beautiful, Copa.

That is how my granddaughters look to me, too. Just so strong, and so overwhelmingly beautiful.

Yes, you are right. In the months until she died, and after, I was depleted and exhausted. It was like entering the twilight zone. I had became selfless. I had left all of my needs, interests, capacities. Her needs became the center of my life. I resisted it at first, wanting to keep my own life. But then, I surrendered.

What I did not understand was when I surrendered I lost control of my life. I had gone onto an alternate track, where I had no self-protection. I became the person who I would have been had I not stood up for myself. Ever. Even though I had stood up for myself most of my life.

Could it be like the thawing Frankenstein imagery, Copa?

Think how long it has taken me to get through what I have gotten through here. Think how many times I posted feeling so sickened, so lethargic, so hopeless, so tired. What if that all happened to you at once?

Processing those toxins takes me around three days to a long time. Imagery keeps coming up and connecting, as it did for "That'll do, pig."

That could be what happened, Copa.

I am not stalking her. Let's make that clear right off the bat. Just Google and Zillow. Why so strongly in my mind was my sister yesterday?

That happens to me as I soften the edges of the frozen places. So I can have the feelings, which are invariably so crummy I can hardly breathe.

Small steps, Copa.

You will not give yourself more than you can handle. I remind myself of that, remind myself that I know that, everytime I think that this time, I have gone too deep.

So that might be a good thing for you to remember too, Copa.

Just in case.

The thing is, these things can be a way to attack myself, and for others to attack me and us.

This is a golden, true thing to know. It tells us where we are, and gives us enough perspective to make a different choice about where we are taking things, and why.

Very deep, tough post for you I think, Copa.

It is amazing to me that we can do this.

You are very strong.

Like me and like SWOT and like my grands and my daughter and maybe hopefully soon could be already happening, my son.

Very strong.

Good for us.

We are doing this thing.

Cedar
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
Like me and like SWOT and like my grands and my daughter and maybe hopefully soon could be already happening, my son.
I want my son to be strong, too.

Still no word from him for now nearly 3 weeks. We tried calling again, and the phone is disconnected.

I went to Physical Therapy today. He says I have to limit computer use, especially in bed like I'm doing it. I have to set up a desktop. If you do not hear from me much for a while, that is what it is. I will print out a hard copy of this thread if I can figure out how to do it (any ideas?) and work from that.

Sending my love, Cedar and SWOT,

Copa
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
I have commented before on her elation at the story of this family, the family line of her dead husband, being hers, because all the players but her were dead now. I posted about the murder plot my mother is hatching to this day against my paternal grandmother's memory. My mother has said, to my face, that my paternal family line is "stupid" in the sense of not smart. That they are worthless, weird ~ choose your poison word of the day.

And she has the stories to prove it, and has been pouring them into my ears since my father's death, since I have taken my time and my husband's time and given it to her, to talk to her every night for as long as she wanted about anything she wanted.
I feel bad for you. Blot out her words, even if you hear them. I heard, as I have told you, all about how horrible my father's family was and it never occurred to me to question Her Highness so I never met them. Even as a young adult, I still believed they were baaaaaaaaaad people. I missed out on having the chance to have a family that worked. I am not that familiar with my paternal grandmother's family, but I did go to family reunion once and they seemed to nice and so nice to each other. But by then...welll, they didn't know me. I still had the tapes in my head. And I did not want to get too involved.They were practicing Jews and I had renounced Judaism, yet they were kind to me and accepting.

Terrible people, lemme tellya.

Cedar, don't let your mother talk over your knowledge of the truth. Maybe they didn't like your mother. I don't think anyone on my father's side of the family liked MY mother. Gee, I wonder why. Cedar, this is her revenge against them; that you and your siblings will think they are baaaaaaaaaaaaaaad.

Don't drink the Kool-Aid. You may even be bold enough to say, "Mother, I don't want to hear your opinions of my father's family. Can we discuss something else?"
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
I would hold strong for my mother if I could know how to do it. I don't. That is just an undeniable fact. There was a time I felt guilty, or responsible, or whatever it was I felt where my mother was concerned
You are both different from me. I don't know if it's good or bad or somewhere in between. If my mother had treated me as she treated me and there was nobody to care for her in her final days, which were not pretty, she would have been alone. I could not have forced myself to give up more of my life to her. I had already spent enough time trying to gain at least some peace with her and she did not want it or me. She probably, however, would have clung to me more if there had been no others because she was needy, as my entire FOO is.

But by her death I had learned that you are not responsible for anybody else. She would have probably gone to a nursing home, and, in fact, she did. And I would not have visited as she did not want me around when she was well so I would stay away while she was sick too. We would have been done.

I think, since the others had a relationship with her, I sort of, kinda wanted one too, although I was torn. But if there had been no others, I would not have spoken to anybody who was talking to her, and would not have been so tempted.

It is easy to be loving when you are helpless and needy.

And that's cheating on their part.

I am happy to report I have benn 100% no contact with FOO, and I do need to call my dad. I never did it yesterday. It is not his fault and I know it's a minor trigger to talk to him, but he loves me so he deserves my love back. In spite of being a trigger. I never felt he caused these problems in me, so he himself is not the trigger.

Cedar, do you ever think there will be a time when you can detach from your mother and sister? I truly don't believe the hurt goes away unless you do. I have been soooooooooooooo much happier since I completely detached and have no idea what the others are doing and saying (especially about me). It is night and day for me to know what they are up to and to erase them from my day-to-day life. I can be myself, which is pretty happy, without them talking to me, even if they are talking to anon. people on a forum. The words, if about me, still speak to ME. But I don't know or care anymore what either say when I don't peak. I rarely think about them...just when I'm on this thread. And it is greatly helping me.

I did not believe in no contact before.

If you can actually do it all the way, I'm beginning to believe that sometimes it is the only way to save yourself from the torment of the past.

I feel a ton of relief. And my family has once again become my husband and kids and grands. And I am happy as long as I keep it this way.

I would never tell you what to do. Not everyone can do thi s guilt free. But you may try taking off, say three days, from talking to them or seeing them to see how you feel. Can't hurt.
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
Fascinating article on the science of childhood abuse, including emotional abuse. It talks about very early trauma. I wonder if E. ever picked me and and held me.

"You stiffened and didn't want me to hold you so I put you in the crib and propped your bottle." (Or a variation of these words that mean them).

Is this abuse or neglect? Don't babies need to be held?

And, of course, in the back of my mind, as always, I hear these tapes.

"It wasn't that bad."

"Others have it worse."

"At least we weren't sexually abused or hit."

But I was denied being held because I didn't like it. That makes it seem like it was my fault and absolves E. Can a baby be too hard to hold so that you prop a bottle?

With chocolate milk in it? Chocolate milk? Way back then, as an infant, if I didn't like something I was allowed to get whatever I wanted just so I'd shut up. The best interests of a baby were not in play here. Her laziness as a parent were.

Early attachment is mandatory, even if your chld stiffens. You keep at it. I had to do that with Sonic and by the time he came to us, he was two. But He resisted being held, yet we held him and eventually he relaxed in my arms like an infant and to this day he is very bonded.

I don't expect kudos for this, but I tried.

She didn't try. No boundaries. No hard work. Just whatever I wanted in order to shut m e up. I was allowed a bottle of chocolate milk until I was nearly five. My first dental appointment showed around 23 cavities. Chocolate milk?

Because I was more difficult to deal with, she wasn't going to deal with me. And, of course, it was MY fault.

"I didn't hold you because you stiffened in my arms."

Sure, blame an infant. YOu also said you felt nothing for me when I was born. Can an infant tell there is no love?

Lazy.

Such a lazy parent.

Never taught manners, social skills, boundaries, how to cook, how to clean, nothing. It is easier to just let the kids grow up themselves and who cares if they struggled as adults. After all, SHE struggled so we could too. She based some things on that.

"Your grandmother never babysat for me (which is a lie), so I will never babysit for YOU." And in my case, she meant it.

She must have forgotten when she owned the dance studio and my grandmother babysat for me. I had pictures of her in the studio with me (remember, I threw out my growing up picture album of lies). I can remember, in a flashback type of picture, sitting by the place where parents paid for the lessons while my grandmother took the money. I may not have been at home, but THAT is babysitting.

At any rate, I do struggle with emotional abuse. To this day, my therapists hear my examples and they look at me in shock. "With the dramatics? With the hand waving?" Yes. "Sarcastic?" Yes. "Mocking?" Always. That scared me about her the most. She mocked me. Is that enough to be abused? I will always wonder, have a nugget of doubt. But research is on my side. They are finally starting to study the affects of emotional abuse AND what it is. And how it affects a developing brain.

And I'm sharing what I just read. Hope you get something from it.

http://www.dana.org/Cerebrum/2000/Wounds_That_Time_Won’t_Heal__The_Neurobiology_of_Child_Abuse/
 
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