Hey, Cedar, or anyone interested in FOO (Family of Origin) issues. Cedar, WHY NOW???

[Scent of Cedar *]

Okay.

But here is the difference. Where before, I had nothing to counter the what it feels like to see in this way, now I have The Monty Python grail piece. I have the Frenchman saying: "We got one." "Oh, yes, it's very nice."

I have "Go away, you silly king."

I have the kilt man piece, where even though they don't have what they need, where even though the very thing that defines them is missing, they parade defiantly into their lives sans kilt.

And they are not ridiculous or alone.

Cedar

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

See, I don't recall E. ever putting her hands on me, which makes me think YOUR abuse was worse than MINE or maybe it wasn't abuse AT ALL.

The essential wound is created with the first abusive incident. So, picture a newly born baby girl, or a toddler who looks much as you must have looked. Into the world she comes. Electric shock, for this baby, instead of warm, mother's milk. Now, see her as a toddler. Everything she touches, each thing she explores with a toddler's curiosity and wonder, an electric shock and the mother laughs when it happens, to her.

Whether that toddler was strangled when she was six or seven would just be a thing that happened. Another thing. Less harmful perhaps than the betrayal of the electric shock, the continuing electric shock of her every exploration.

The mother's ridicule; her denial that her child has been hurt. Her insistence that the child is selfish when she cries over the hurt of the betrayal; when she cries and seeks validation. When, in her whole hearted innocence, she takes the pain and the blame that it was an electric shock instead of mother love. Now see this, SWOT, for that beautiful little girl: Every time the baby smiled, every time the toddler reached out or fell down when she learned to stand and then, to walk, the mother laughed at her pain and her shame and her puzzlement.

But the baby, the courageous little toddler she would become, the young girl or the mother she would create of herself did it anyway, SWOT. For you and me and for Copa, we created what we created of ourselves in spite of. That is courage. That is faith. That is a loneliness few people ever know. We were alone, essentially alone with our own mothers, who were dangerous to us, and who chose, with eyes open, to hurt us, to weaken us, though they had to know how harsh life can be. They weakened us, SWOT. And they did it again and again, over all the times of our lives.


We recover from physical abuse, SWOT. That is probably why I was always posting for awhile there that I lived. We never, ever recover from betrayal. We can resee it. We can reinterpret responsibility for the shame in it. We can, in our minds and in our memories, place the burden of the shame of it where it legitimately belongs: on the person, on the adult in the situation, SWOT, who picked hatred over love; on the person who victimized and insistently revictimized, her own child, her own children, her own people, instead of loving them.

It isn't that they didn't know what they were doing at some level, SWOT. Just like I know I feel hatred for my sister and I know it is a badness to harbor those feelings but there they are and I don't know what to do with them.

I only know that are wrong feelings.

Our moms knew too, SWOT.

In your heart, in the core of you, in that place inside where our mothers and our lovers teach us who we are, you were abused as savagely as I was, SWOT. You have the right and the obligation to declare your own name. Just as I do, now that we are able to see and unlearn who they told us we were.

It is very much like Copa posted about wakening Sleeping Beauty.

We are making our ways through the thorns surrounding the place of enchantment; surrounding the place where we are only asleep for a hundred years and not dead, after all.

Cedar

 

[BusynMember]

For some of us... both sides want that "family dinner". It's just that they want the image, and I want the reality, and the two don't mix very well.

I want that family dinner, but not with them. They don't know how to be a family. I never had fun when we would get together, although that was rare. It was usually just Dad, Mom, grandma and silent grandpa (the man never spoke) and we three kids. It wasn't fun. We didn't cook together. We didn't laugh and make affectionate jokes.

I never had a real family meal until I married my first husband and met HIS family. Now THEY knew how to do a family dinner. And my mother-in-law showed me what a real mother is like. She was my role model. May she rest iin peace. I'm sure she is an angel.

You can not have a family when the players don't know how to BE a family.

Our families are our husbands and our kids. For me, at least, that is more than enough.

 

[BusynMember]

my father too was abused by my mother

Oh, so was mine.

"His family is rotten."

"They're so mean they threw me out of the House once." (Gee, I w onder why."

"He has such a horrible temper." (He did, but he also had a good heart. She had a terrible temper too, without t he heart. And she knew how to bait people. It was the only skill she passed along...lol. We all do know how to bait."

Cedar, their divorce was ALL HIS FAULT.

He didn't want the divorce.

Thing 2: "Oh, they just were wrong for each other. That's all."

She is the mistress of minimalism. He loved her and she mistreated him and egged him on until he did get furious. She knew how to do it and she did it. She did the same to me. It was far dirtier and deeper than "they were wrong for each other." That's acting like they were normal...lol. I think my dad is more normal than my mom, but they weren't a normal couple just not getting along. And, sorry if you're still reading, but it was her fault. She was a nasty piece of work.
My Dad cared about her when she had brain cancer, even though she had screwed him out of everything he owned and made him miserable while she laughed her way into Single Haven at 50. But he cared. He even took me to task for refusing to drive from Wisconsin to Illinois to visit her. I said, "No. She didn't want me in her life. I'm not going to help take care of her now. Thing 2 can do it."

I've never had regrets about that either. I had my own family to take care of.

My mother would not have come to take care of ME if I'd had brain cancer.

Checkmate.

I did call her, but she didn't know it was me. It was a bad way to go. I will not comment beyond that. I did not feel I had an obligation to be there and she had not wanted me to know about a brain tumor she'd had eight years earlier. She made everyone keep it a secret from me. SHE finally told me. I wonder about her motive for that. I guess she just didn't love me as her daughter. So why should I love her as a fake mother?

She was my womb donor, more or less.

Sorry to interrupt.

 

[BusynMember]

I don't know what to do with the feelings for my sister.

What is ethical response. It is important to know that, and to know I am on a right path. Hatred is never a right path.

I don't know what to do with what I feel for my sister.

Being false in my opinion is never helpful to anyone.

Don't cheat.

 

[BusynMember]

We can resee it. We can reinterpret responsibility for the shame in it. We can, in our minds and in our memories, place the burden of the shame of it where it legitimately belongs: on the person, on the adult in the situation, SWOT, who picked hatred over love; on the person who victimized and insistently revictimized, her own child, her own children, her own people, instead of loving them.

Cedar, Copa, Insane, anyone reading...I think the shame I feel is permanent. When I think of my mother, and think of the words she would say, I feel like that little girl who was ashamed that her mother didn't like her, let alone love her. I'm working on the shame issue. I do realize now that this was not my fault. I wish the feelings would always follow my knowledge...

 

[Copabanana]

What is ethical response. It is important to know that, and to know I am on a right path. Hatred is never a right path.

I do hate my sister. That is true. But I love her too. I must, because I keep checking Zillow to see how much her house is worth. That can't be hate, because no matter what I say I want vengeance I am not a vengeful person.

SWOT, you may be the kindest among us. I do believe that had your mother permitted it, you would have cared for her at the end. Forgive me for saying it, but I believe that is part of your rage for your mother. That your mother never permitted you to love her. And you are pure love, SWOT. Beneath and behind everything, that is who you are.

From the grave your mother chose to hurt you. There is no turning back from that. Where is the grace? Where is the possibility? It is nothing but evil, to me, at least.

But SWOT, that is not you. You are left holding the bag for all of the feelings. That is the problem. But the hatred is not you. You were left with it because your mother was chicken-sh-t.

SWOT, I think I know you a little bit (although I may not read your reply, because I am afraid of your strength. You are quite strong. And I don't want you to be mad at me.) Your mother did a very, very bad and evil thing. It had nothing in the world to do with your intrinsic worth. She was a damaged person, highly damaged. But I still believe that had she permitted it, you would have cared for her. She did not.

The only thing I do know is that hatred is not a right path.

I think that with respect to SWOT's mother, the hatred was in her, for herself. And she was so toxic and damaged that when she looked at SWOT she saw her own reflection, and she was rejecting herself, not SWOT.

How you turned out so good and strong and loving is one of life's miracle's SWOT. But I do not think your mother ever really saw who you were. She only saw her own damaged, twisted self. But I still think you would have loved her at the end. Because SWOT I think that is who you are.

What I think you are tripping over, SWOT, is that you are still not forgiving yourself.

And I think that is my problem, too. I am not forgiving myself for either my mother or my son.

And why I am still not able to get out of bed and why I am continuing to pick horrible fights with M. And poor M, he is treating me a little bit like I am having uncontrollable fits, because my eyes must look haunted. I do not know where he is finding the self-control because self control really is not who he is. I think I am really starting to believe he may love me. He cried today.

So, M is dealing with the legacy of the toxic mother that Cedar has been writing about. Who responded to most every act of love, or accident, or vulnerability with contempt, with rejection, with shaming.

Because, SWOT, that was who she was. Not you. Not me. We are love. Except that everything got all mixed up inside of us because we were made to believe everything was our fault and our responsibility and it was not.

Choose fluid; stay flexible and aware and allow time and space and possibility.

I think this is so, as long as there is the benefit of time. Cedar, you have all this still to unfold in the future. SWOT lacks this possibility.

She is faced with the horrible task of sorting this out, without the benefit of having a range of options of shifting possibilities.

SWOT you dealt with a fait a complis or however you spell it.

You could easily have walked away, like my sister did. I do not think my sister is visiting chat rooms to consider the legacy of her family's life.

You are. That is who you are. Despite everything and all, you seek to find and understand the truth of things. That is who you are. You did nothing wrong.

Now, I visualize you now writing back denying 90 percent of what I am writing. Think about it. And forgive me, SWOT. I will say it again. Your mother was a sick sick woman. You are not. You are a good woman. You would have loved her if she had permitted it. She was too destroyed. She hated herself, not you.

I feel like destroying her in my heart and my memory because there is so much proof that she is dangerous to me and to my kids and grands.

Here Cedar is back to her sister. I feel like this too about my own. But the joke is on me. I cannot completely destroy my sister in my heart. Because like yours and like Cedar, my heart is sweet.

Too bad, because I want vengeance. Especially about the pictures she stole. The few baby pictures of my beautiful mother. My baby pictures. My son's. My grandparents. My father. But, especially my Mother's baby pictures. I hope she rots in H-ll. Not.

I want that family dinner, but not with them. They don't know how to be a family.

That is true. In the last decade or more of my mother's life I could never make myself go. I feel guilty, still. But I could not do it.

I have an elderly uncle. He is the last living sibling of my father by many years. He and his wife live in my town. I CANNOT GO AND VISIT. It is 6 years that I am here. I know I need to. I want to. But I can't. The memories are too cruel. Not his cruelty. It was my father's. But there was not any love or care on his part to motivate me to overcome my fear and the legacy of hurt that will not go away.

So as I write this I understand your position about your mother. If I substitute her name for my uncle's I can absolutely relate to your position.

Except, I believe that it is possible at least that you would have still given your mother a hand. Because that SWOT is who I think you are. Even before you are self-protective and honorable, you are loving.

I think the shame I feel is permanent. When I think of my mother, and think of the words she would say, I feel like that little girl who was ashamed that her mother didn't like her, let alone love her.

SWOT, it will be your mother's eternal shame that she injured you. You would have been her pride. And I believe you would have allowed her to change at the last moment, at her last breath. But she was too broken.

But because of the horribleness of things...she made you feel broken...so that momentarily she did not have to. She created a little receptacle of her shame, in your psyche. It is not yours. It was always hers.

Forgive me SWOT. Feel free to reject everything I have said. But it felt too important to me to not say it.

 

[Copabanana]

I think the shame I feel is permanent. When I think of my mother, and think of the words she would say, I feel like that little girl who was ashamed that her mother didn't like her, let alone love her.

SWOT, your shame is not permanent. Your mother's is. It was always her shame that she tried to put onto you. It was never your shame. And always hers.

Just like for me, now. I continue to torment myself because I did not perfectly care for my mother at the end. I can hear you howling with outrage. That I take on what was her crime, not my own. I could tell you the specific ways that I failed her that torture me, but for now I want to spare myself the suffering.

My mother failed me intentionally thousands of times. Thousands and thousands of times she chose for herself, and yet I still bear the shame of the few times I failed her. I will not count the years I spent away from her, because I was afraid.

In her eyes, I was created to serve her; to subordinate my needs, my very self, to her. And still I cannot escape from viewing myself from the same eyes, hers. You do the same. Not a lot. But you do. ''

Let's you and I find compassion for ourselves, SWOT. I am thinking now if those little adorable toddler girls Cedar writes about. I bet SWOT you were precious and precocious and a handful. Any healthy parent would have adored you. Cherished you.

I do not know how to overcome this, SWOT--how to stop the automatic response of killing myself off automatically as penance for what, being human?

Where is the compassion for ourselves?

The words your mother said came from her mouth, came from her brain, from her experience. They had nothing in the world to do with you, except, the accident of birth, as you say. That you were defenseless as a target of her sadism and self-hatred.

Do you think I will for the rest of my life never get out of bed, because I failed my mother? That is like you saying forever you will feel shame that your mother hated herself and took at out on you.

Are we destined to be forever tortured for failings that are not and never were our own?

 

[BusynMember]

SWOT, I think I know you a little bit (although I may not read your reply, because I am afraid of your strength. You are quite strong. And I don't want you to be mad at me.) Your mother did a very, very bad and evil thing. It had nothing in the world to do with your intrinsic worth. She was a damaged person, highly damaged. But I still believe that had she permitted it, you would have cared for her. She did not.

Aw, Copa. I am not angry at you when you speak the truth. I was not an only child and she didn't need me. I can't say what I would have d one if the dynamics were different. Of course if she had allowed me to love her, that would have meant she gave some back, and she wouldn't.

Copa, you would smile if you knew what the majority of my FOO thinks about me. Some of the actions they said I did were true. But I always had love in my heart. I wanted to help my brother, who was so sick, when he was younger. I wanted to be his friend when he had none. I wanted to help my sister too, but I didn't know how. I was never taught how. The things I did upset her and made me think I betrayed her.

Example: Thing 2 was very sick and still in college. E. used to dump her at home and fly off to see her boyfriend, even on holidays. She did not, this one time, take my sister's illness seriously, but the doctors did. I offered to pay. Then I called up my m other to let her know just how awful of her I thought it was to run off to boyfriend when my sister was sick. I told her things that my sister didn't want her to k now (did I mention we were not taught boundaires?). In my FOO, my mother passed along every word I said even if she promised not to to my grandmother and vice versa. I truly did not think anything of it. My goal was to tell E., "Your NEGLECT of my sister, who is just still in college, is that she is getting in trouble, is unhappy, and has made bad choices. YOU ARE CAUSING THIS."

She was, but maybe I shouldn't have said so. My sister may have gotten into trouble even if E. had been kind to her, and she was not when she was in college. In fact, she was horrid.

Now about 5% of what I told E. was to also let her know I am not the only one who gets into trouble. But it was only 5% (not excusing it, but explaining) my main goal was to shake her up and get her a little concerned about her daughter. It didn't work, of course.

About ten years later, out of the blue, Thing 2 calls up crying that I betrayed her and she would neve rspeak to me again. She hung up and would not tell me what I did. I had no idea E. had spilled the beans, making it seem as if I had done it for my own gain. Tell me, what do i gain if my mother thinks my sister is doing dangerous things? She likes me better? She likes her worse? I guess she thought the latter, although it's a joke as E. NEVER liked me or treated me well. I tried and tried to call and she finally took the phone off the hook...back in the day. So I drove over there and banged on the door.

When I think about this now, I find the scene kind of comical.

She peaked from out behind the drapes, but wouldn't come out. I kept banging.

Finally, when I reaelized, she was going to play "I won't tell you" I took off my tennis shoe (it was one of those canvass shoes, like a Keds shoe) and threw it against her door, but before I did I wrote Eff you," on it.

Soon the cops came a-calling for the first time. This is the one and only time I guess I deserved it as she didn't want me to be on her property, no matter how much I was hurting. I had no right to be there. Then (this is part of the comedy) the car died while I was backing out of her driveway and my husband had to come and push it to the street and fix it. He is a car mechanic.

Ok, but the point really is, E. wanted to cause trouble. She never had to mention that to Thing 2, especially a year later. But Thing 2 choose to believe I did it 100% to make my mommy not love her, which is a bald faced LIE. It did not happen that way. I was trying to help but, like many times in my life, I did it wrong, partly due to not understanding that a secret is a secret. I didn't get that for a while. I do get it now. She would say that posting HERE is betraying her secrets. I disagree. There is nobody here who knows her or will ever know who she is. BIG DIFFERENCE.

Anyhow, I always had as big heart, and tried to help people. I had a far easier time helping strangers and friends than my FOO, partly because everything I tried to do was turned against me.

"You only adopted those kids for the MONEY!!!!"


So with all of my motives being suspect, I still did not give up.

The last cut off by T2, after about ten others and some cops for nothing (she learned to use them as a punishlmelnt), I was talking to her to try to make her feel better about abusive boyfriend. And when I couldn't take it anymore, I told her no more. So we somehow ended up having an e-mail exchange in which she tried to bait me. And I did not take the bait.

However, I did tell her about "the elephant in the room" that had been there during all of our relationship. Same with Thing 1, which is why I could not warm up to him.

I know that if my mother had been treating my siblings like she treated me I would have flat out said, "Look, stop it or I won't talk to you either." I didn't expect that of my sibs, but they could have said just once, "Stop it! She's my sister and she's nice and I don't want to hear that ever again."

If I was so awful why were they in touch with me? T2 seemed not to be able to live without me. She'd cut me off, then come back. I did not initiate it. Ever.

That "elephant in the room" had been on my mind for so long that I was relieved that I'd finally put it down in words.
There. I'd said it and whatever would happen would happen...lala.

She never called me again.

But I had tried to help her, even less than two years ago with her boyfriend, even knowing she had never stuck up for me, even knowing she told everyone I was mentally ill (and s he meant it as a horrible thing...I don't), even knowing she has tried to get my father against me at times and even knowing she had cut me off ten times and called the cops on me to control me. I still wanted her to have a good life with a good man and it hurt me tons that she did not seem to care for anyone nice and was addicted to this alcoholic who treated her like last weeks garbage.

Copa, being treated so badly has an up side. It gives one compassion. You feel for everyone, maybe too much.

If my mother had loved me al ittle, I would have loved her tons. Maybe I would not have always done her bidding, but I would have loved her. I still would not have split up the $5000, but I would have loved her anyone, as I loved my grandmother.

But, you're right. She didn't let me love her and was very hateful, in fact, toward me.

I do not know, even if I were an only child and she had treated me this way, if I would not have just put her into a nursing home. My husband and kids have always come first and ALL of them want nothing to do with anyone from my FOO. If my husband had heard her talking to me like she did, he would have thrown her out, even on her death bed.

It is a complicated thought to ponder. Fortunately, Thing 2 was there and GC was there and I didn't have to fake affection at the end or even think about having to fake affection at the end.

Yet the last words I ever said to her were "I love you."

Maybe I meant it at the time. She was brain damaged by then and had no idea who I was.

Copa, I think you feel I am nicer than I am. I have learned early the ability to block people out of my life if I have to. It's a skill I learned as a child. I can literally walk away from somebody and once I realize they have walked away from ME, I can actually sort of forget about them. That's rather cold, I think. And I can do it.

I learned that from the Queen. And also it was a necessary coping skill.

 

[BusynMember]

SWOT, it will be your mother's eternal shame that she injured you. You would have been her pride. And I believe you would have allowed her to change at the last moment, at her last breath. But she was too broken.

You're making me cry now because you are so right. Thank you.

 

[BusynMember]

ecause, SWOT, that was who she was. Not you. Not me. We are love. Except that everything got all mixed up inside of us because we were made to believe everything was our fault and our responsibility and it was not.

Wow. Just wow. No words. Just tears. So beautifully stated.

 

[BusynMember]

Let's you and I find compassion for ourselves, SWOT. I am thinking now if those little adorable toddler girls Cedar writes about. I bet SWOT you were precious and precocious and a handful. Any healthy parent would have adored you. Cherished you.

No, Copa. Any normal mother would have adored me because I was her child, but that was not me. I was difficult and defiant and had tantrums and was overly sensitive. I was VERY verbally precocious and could write some words at two or three, but then I washed out at school. I was tempermental and nervous and depressed. It was so obvious that any loving mother would have REALLY been concerned, even back then when they didn't have many answers.I had no social skills and was teased at school. I had learning disabilities. I had tantrums. I was a chronic hypochondriac, always afraid I was sick. I was a lot like her in a child's form, but she still didn't understand me. I think she took it personally that I wasn't a happy,. bright-eyed little girl who made her look like an adequate parent. Maybe? I don't know for sure.

The only one she worried about was GC because she could SEE his illness. You can see stomach illness. He had Crohn's Disease.

She did not care enough about nor look for mine nor did she try to be perhaps more caring and sensitive toward me because I was so obviously a troubled child. She did not have the insight to take care of a child like me and she decided I was "bad." That was her answer to my problems. Trust me, I'm sure I could have done better in life if I'd had a different major caregiver because she barely did any caregiving at all. Like all neurologically atypical kids, I needed a strong, confident and loving parent more than even most kids, and all kids need them. But I needed one to learn how to function as an adult and I didn't have one.

 

[BusynMember]

Are we destined to be forever tortured for failings that are not and never were our own?

No!!!!
We are strong, stronger for having stood on our own. We had to.

I normally am happy and content. It's just when I dump my childhood baggage that I feel sad, but I feel it's necesary in order to heal to the max that I can. So much of what I am saying here, I kept inside and hid even from myself. I never really "talked" much about how much I resented my FOO to the degree I am doing here. It has been cleansing.

lDo I think there is NO hope? ABSOLUTELY NOT!

We are Survivors

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

.I think the shame I feel is permanent.

With all my heart, I believe that this can change, SWOT. For you, and for me and Copa, too.

Cedar

 

[Copabanana]

Then I called up my mother to let her know just how awful of her I thought it was to run off to

Your NEGLECT of my sister, who is just still in college, is that she is getting in trouble, is unhappy, and has made bad choices. YOU ARE CAUSING THIS."

I know that if my mother had been treating my siblings like she treated me I would have flat out said, "Look, stop it or I won't talk to you either."

I am in no way justifying anything anybody in your family did or did not do. I just want to say this:

It was their loss. It is their loss. It seems there is often one strong sibling who is able to rise above the rest, and becomes the moral center of the family. In your family it seems to have been you. You spoke the truth. It didn't go over so well because everybody else it seems was weak. I think there is also an element of catching the fire. Of willfully and deliberately and consciously taking the heat for siblings to protect them.

I played the same role.

But this is the kicker. Actually two kickers. One, they are not grateful. And actually, they see blood and begin to scapegoat you. And second, you end up blaming yourself and spending almost the rest of your life trying to figure out why they treat you so badly and do not act right.

WRONG. They do not act right because they do not have it in them. And the upshot? We feel guilty about it. Don't deny it SWOT. It's true.

they could have said just once, "Stop it! She's my sister and she's nice and I don't want to hear that ever again."

Ditto. They did not stand up for you because they are not you. They relied upon you to protect them and when you needed them, they kicked you. Why? They are not you. They are lesser, inferior beings.

If my mother had loved me a little, I would have loved her tons.

Yet the last words I ever said to her were "I love you."

I know SWOT. Because that is who you are. She hated herself, SWOT. You just happened to be her innocent victim.

Copa, I think you feel I am nicer than I am. I have learned early the ability to block people out of my life if I have to....I can literally walk away...actually sort of forget about them. That's rather cold, I think. And I can do it.

I know SWOT. I am the same way. I walked away from every single member of my family and I did not look back. Until I decided to, in the case of my mother.

My mother. My father. My sister. And my half-brother while he lived. I cut out of my life, like they were dead. They were dead. To me. And, I am as nice a person as you would want to meet. To protect yourself has nothing in the world to do with nice. You know that.

 

[BusynMember]

With all my heart, I believe that this can change, SWOT. For you, and for me and Copa, too.

Thanks, Cedar. It is changing, but it lingers. The tapes still sometimes (not as often, but still sometimes) say, "You're SELFISH! You're LAZY! You don't care about ANYONE except yourself. You're BAD!" And it's still in her voice...ten years after her passing.

I'm working on a coping skill I learned where I tell myself or say to myself, if nobody is around, "STOP!" Then I switch to MY voice and tell myself all the good things I have done. There are many, but her voice is still so loud I invalidate my own good deeds...lol.


We will get over it. Together

 

[BusynMember]

But this is the kicker. Actually two kickers. One, they are not grateful. And actually, they see blood and begin to scapegoat you. And second, you end up blaming yourself and spending almost the rest of your life trying to figure out why they treat you so badly and do not act right.

WRONG. They do not act right because they do not have it in them. And the upshot? We feel guilty about it. Don't deny it SWOT. It's true.

I do think it's true.

It is frustrating that they don't believe anything I explain. I tried to help my sister, not hurt her. I was protecting her, not trying to get into my mother's good graces. Yes, I have a strong moral compass and will speak up if needed.
Thing 2 is in my opinion kind of shallow in her thinking. For example, she is overly obsessed with her looks. That's just one example. I don't think she could comprehend that I would try to get my mother to feel ashamed of her treatment of her by pointing out what her behavior was causing in my sister. To her it is cut and dried. I wanted to make my mother think badly of her. Which wasn't true. I actually wanted my mother to treat her better. She was being horrid to my sister who was still young and still needed her.

But I have to agree with T2 that I croseed boundaries there. Boundaries? What are they? The day I got my period, I heard my mother on the phone giggling as she told my father, "Our little girl is a woman now. She got her period." I remember going into hte living room in tears. I was trying to figure this out myself. I didn't want my father to know. I didn't want anyone to know. There were no boundaries in our house and I remember talking to E. about that AND to my grandmother who loved me. I only remember what my grandmother said.

"In a family there ARE no secrets."

And she meant it.

I was the middle man whenever she got into a fight with E., which was a lot. She told me things I didn't really want to know.

"She was such a sweet child, but now she's so BITTER!!!" My grandmother as she went on about the latest stuff flung at her by her own daughter.

So, yeah, there were NO secrets in our FOO. And plenty of made up secrets too...lol. And wrong conclusions. I'm sure I drew wrong conclusions too.

So that's what I learned.

Thing 2 is protective of her secrets to the point where what I'm doing to heal is a betrayal of her secrets. I have to disagree. Agree to disagree. This is anonymous. But she is free to think what she likes about them. Neither of us are good about boundaries.

 

[BusynMember]

But this is the kicker. Actually two kickers. One, they are not grateful. And actually, they see blood and begin to scapegoat you. And second, you end up blaming yourself and spending almost the rest of your life trying to figure out why they treat you so badly and do not act right.

Copa, I agree here too. But I think they really believe I'm that bad.

So bye-bye to both of them and I wish them happy lives, which I sincerely do not think they will have, especially T2, because she makes such poor choices about herself. I truly wish she loved herself more. I was trying to get herself to care enough about herself to dump the boyfriend, but she never did.

 

[Copabanana]

SWOT, this is my last post. I do not know how you read and write so fast. But I could not stop myself from responding. This I believe and I believe it firmly and strongly. You do not know how much of your distress came from your healthy response to inadequate mothering. How is it bad for a small child to protest?

I was difficult and defiant and had tantrums

Could you have been depressed because you had reason to be? I do not know the age you were when you came to have these symptoms but every one of these behaviors and attributes could have been a response to inadequate parenting. The failure was that of your mother. You were in distress because that was the situation you were in. You kept alerting her to your need. And over and over again she failed you. And she failed herself. And that is why she distanced herself and became so cruel. Because she knew in her heart that she failed her.

I was tempermental and nervous and depressed.

Perhaps, SWOT, you looked like her. Perhaps you had her temperament. And because she hated herself. She could not separate herself from her baby, and failed you, and then tried to distance herself from any reminder of such.

SWOT, by this laundry list of so-called problems you had, you make my point. You had already been scapegoated. You arrived at school already an underdog. Marked by the failure of your Mother to parent you adequately. Because she hated herself.

OK. Let's look at it another way. Tishthedish has made it easy for me. You know she now has her grandson who she describes as presenting as Autistic, precocious and a handful. He bolts away and runs away and is generally impossible to contain. And on top of it all, he is dumped into her lap. And today? She is gushing about his adorableness. He's precious. She is in love with him. So don't tell me that a good enough mother would not have found you adorable, too. I know it. Every one of these statements below, SWOT, you are bashing yourself. Our Difficult Child's, every one of them almost have had issues such as these and we love them up.

I had no social skills and was teased at school.

I had learning disabilities.

I had tantrums.

I was a lot like her in a child's form

Now, here is the truth of the matter. She hated herself. She could not effectively parent. You looked like her. You may have been similar in temperament. Unlike you, she could not or would not rise above her limitations. She failed at her life. You didn't.

I think she took it personally that I wasn't a happy,. bright-eyed little girl who made her look like an adequate parent.

Yes, I think this may be true. When my mother could not stand that we were rightfully mad at her. Like, when she stole our inheritance, the way she dealt with it was to decide she never wanted to see us again. Blame the victim, right? I found a letter she wrote to her attorney, with those words. That any financial settlement with me was contingent on never again seeing either of her daughters.

It is almost ludicrous. Are you going to let yourself be defined by a fruitcake?

she decided I was "bad."

No, SWOT. She didn't decide you were bad. You did.

When you were a tiny, tiny girl, you blamed yourself for not pleasing her. You, like me and Cedar needed loving responses, not cruelty. So instead of little SWOT telling herself, I'm good because my Mommy loves me, the opposite occurred. You told yourself, I must be bad or else my Mommy would love me.

I recognize the words SWOT, because it happened to me. And when M and I fight over and over again I say the same thing, in the voice of the child I was so long ago.

"You think I'm bad."

And he is learning to look at me with such love and hurt. Because he knows that in that moment I am decades back in time. I am that little girl who needed love and care and found little. And she made sense of it by telling herself she was a bad little girl. Because that was the only way to explain the way her Mommy treated her.

Now I feel sad.

But no more tonight. I am going to try to read a mystery. Thank you SWOT.

 

[BusynMember]

This is for when you do read it.

Copa, I have been here a long time, but never before has a post spoken to me this intimately and made me cry. I know you re right. I don't believe I was totally neurotypical, but that was no reason not to love your own child. And i think everything was worse because she did not want to bother with my problems. It was easier to call me b ad. And, yes, I totally believe she hated herself. Until my grandmother died, while she was still in the nursing home, I was walking in the hallway to visit my grandmother and I overheard my mother and grandmother arguing. This was days before her death (grandmother). She was talking about how grandmother favored Uncle over her (her brother). Grandmother was protesting.

That was NOT t he time to be arguing with my grandmother! I have no memory of what happened after, but I suspect I came, she walked out. My mother, in spite of her resentment toward her own mother, would not snub me while her mother was still alive. But I have no memory of her still being there after I walked in the room so maybe she did so that one time. I remember feeling sorry for my grandmother.And my grandmother again saying she had been such a sweet girl and now she's so bitter...

I heard from the Things that E. was better later in life. I don't know if that's true. Maybe she found herself and hated herself less. But the disinheriting while talking to me game was hateful so I have to think she still hated herself a little bit to do this at all. People who do not feel anger and rage do not disown a child. It's strictly an "up yours." They know it will hurt and that is the point. She knew it would hurt because I kept calling her.

I just thought of this...lol. Maybe she thought I was calling her to get her to make sure she gave me part of her fortune...lolol! I never thought of it, really, and she had no fortune, but...I wouldn't put it past her to think that way.

Yes, I still look just like her. If I could tear off my face I would. When I was ten years old we had a school assignment to bring in a picture of our mothers (don't remember why). Nobody believed my mother's picture was my mother as a child. They all thought it was me.

In my mind, even now, I don't want to think my mother was as bad as she was to me. I believe with all my heart that she treated GC and T2 better than me, at least when T2 was older. She never forgave me. For the $5000? I don't know.

Since I can still cry about her, she is still with me, which is why I leave her on this site and don't take her with me elsewhere. It is why it is so hard to talk to my father (a trigger of FOO). It is why I can never even glance at anything on the social media regarding T1 and 2. It is why I must erase my past most of the time, and I have.

Except when I have nightmares about her and she is middle age again (the last time I saw her she was middle age) and I am just a kid. I am never a woman in those nightmares. I always wake up in a sweat.

Thank both of you for taking this ride with me. I am here for both of you. I am also going to turn in and watch some TV with my husband.

Peace and lots of love to both of you. And thank you both so much for listening. Outside of a therapist, nobody listened before. And they're paid to listen...lol. XXX