HHHeeeelllpppp!!!!!

[Tanya M]

Hi JJ, welcome to our group. I am glad you found us here. You have had some good reply's and yes, it can be a lot of information to take in. Remember, we are all trying to help and it's not a one size fits all so take what will work for you and let the rest go.
Don't worry about replying to each person right now, a general response is fine.

My son was diagnosed with ODD and I know all to well the out of control behavior. I was dealing with cancer treatments while dealing with my son. I can so relate to your wife's health issues.

Here is what I can tell you from my own journey. Your wife's health, and the mental well being of you, wife and son need to be a top priority. I know how hard it can be to try and do this when you have a tornado of chaos blowing through your lives. If you are able I strongly suggest getting some counseling for you and your wife.
This may be hard but I had to do it more than a few times and that is to call the police any time she damages your property or threatens you. If you can try and record her threats and outbursts to show the police.
My son was removed from our home because the court said he was a threat to us. The court would not have know this had we not called the police to have it documented.

Is your daughter doing drugs? If she is and they are in your house you need to report that to the police. Again, I had to do this with my son. The police told me if they had to come to our home and had found them without us calling we could have been held responsible.

As for the lawyer who said you cannot evict her, that just does not sound right. Disability or not, she is an adult and if you don't want her living in your home you should be able to make that happen.
I think you need to keep trying to find a lawyer that can really help you.

I wish we had magical answers for you JJ. None of this is easy but I can tell you that you can get through it. There are many of us here that have survived and gone on to live very good lives.

Keep posting and let us know how things are going.

 

[JJNeedsHelps]

She's not a person who is incompetent and requires a conservator to manage her money...

This is true... she is extremely intelligent and has succefffuly manipulated my wife and I for years. Her psychiatrist has told me that she is insane and that in times past she would be in a long term inpatient treatment program. But I still have questions... Is this "insane" remark a next stage after ODD and Conduct Disorder?

 

[Lil]

Her psychiatrist has told me that she is insane and that in times past she would be in a long term inpatient treatment program.

Ooookayyy....Her psychiatrist has no business telling you or anyone else she's "insane". Insanity is a legal term and only belongs in a court of law. Assuming you even have your adult daughter's permission to be told her medical status, it should be confined to the medical diagnosis and "insane" is not a diagnosis.

Only my opinion...but that "insane" remark was completely inappropriate. It certainly is NOT the "next stage". If anything, I expect an adult who had previously been ODD, would end up with a diagnosis of Borderline Personality Disorder or something like that.

 

[JJNeedsHelps]

Hi JJ, welcome to our group. I am glad you found us here. You have had some good reply's and yes, it can be a lot of information to take in. Remember, we are all trying to help and it's not a one size fits all so take what will work for you and let the rest go.
Don't worry about replying to each person right now, a general response is fine.

Thank you.. the responses have been encouraging.

My son was diagnosed with ODD and I know all to well the out of control behavior. I was dealing with cancer treatments while dealing with my son. I can so relate to your wife's health issues.

Being sick and having to deal with a difficult person is scary. I worry about my wife more than ever now. Her doctors told her she needs "eliminate" stress and that is what makes our situation scary.

Here is what I can tell you from my own journey. Your wife's health, and the mental well being of you, wife and son need to be a top priority. I know how hard it can be to try and do this when you have a tornado of chaos blowing through your lives. If you are able I strongly suggest getting some counseling for you and your wife.

We are really trying to make the rest of us a priority. We spent years in family therapy and couple therapy (in regards to dealing with our daughter). But, our daughter seems to sense shifts in our way of dealing with the situation... and so she shifts in the way that she gets to us. She is very effective.

This may be hard but I had to do it more than a few times and that is to call the police any time she damages your property or threatens you. If you can try and record her threats and outbursts to show the police. My son was removed from our home because the court said he was a threat to us. The court would not have know this had we not called the police to have it documented. Is your daughter doing drugs? If she is and they are in your house you need to report that to the police. Again, I had to do this with my son. The police told me if they had to come to our home and had found them without us calling we could have been held responsible.

Our daughter was stealing my wife's pain killers that she has from an accident. We estimated she took about 25 of the oxytocin before we realized what was happening. I hid all the prescription narcotics from that point forward - which cause massive fighting and screaming. We never reported it though... going to the level of police and lawyers and eviction is more recent, since my wife's heart attack.

As for the lawyer who said you cannot evict her, that just does not sound right. Disability or not, she is an adult and if you don't want her living in your home you should be able to make that happen. I think you need to keep trying to find a lawyer that can really help you.

We are going to find another lawyer.

 

[JJNeedsHelps]

Ooookayyy....Her psychiatrist has no business telling you or anyone else she's "insane". Insanity is a legal term and only belongs in a court of law. Assuming you even have your adult daughter's permission to be told her medical status, it should be confined to the medical diagnosis and "insane" is not a diagnosis.

Only my opinion...but that "insane" remark was completely inappropriate. It certainly is NOT the "next stage". If anything, I expect an adult who had previously been ODD, would end up with a diagnosis of Borderline Personality Disorder or something like that.

Yes... Borderline Personality Disorder. I keep misusing the words for the exact diagnosis given to us. It is Borderline Personality Disorder. And yes his comments were inappropriate at the time. The only thing I can say is our family has worked with him since our daughter was 15 and we have a long history with him. Our daughter has blocked us from all her medical records and interactions since turning 18... which we feel is part of the problem with the system because all of the doctors who have worked with our daughter feels she is being let down because of the "legal" aspects of her adulthood. Its frustrating for everyone.

 

[RN0441]

In Illinois you do not need a lawyer to get an eviction; you just go to the courthouse and pay a fee (around $200 or so) and the person you are evicting has 30 days to find another place to live or they will be "removed". We did not have to do this because our son chose rehab (totally different situation) but I would think a lawyer would really cost a lot to do something you can do yourself. Just my thoughts.

 

[JJNeedsHelps]

In Illinois you do not need a lawyer to get an eviction; you just go to the courthouse and pay a fee (around $200 or so) and the person you are evicting has 30 days to find another place to live or they will be "removed". We did not have to do this because our son chose rehab (totally different situation) but I would think a lawyer would really cost a lot to do something you can do yourself. Just my thoughts.

Thank you for your comment. After reviewing our states online eviction procedures on our own we felt a lawyer would be needed because of the physical disability that our daughter has. We just had a lot of questions about how to proceed, because there were certain clauses in the documents about evicting disabled people. (...Not to mention the idea of throwing her out being unprepared/unable to support herself feels cruel to us, regardless of how nasty she treats us. And we recognize these are probably the very feelings our daughter is capitalizing on to control and manipulate us the way she does.) But, yes... we do realize we have the option to proceed without a lawyer.

 

[BusynMember]

I'm sorry, lil, if you did not want jj to know, but jj she knows what she is talking about. LIL is a lawyer too as well as a parent. She k is the laws.

 

[Lil]

I'm sorry, lil, if you did not want jj to know, but jj she knows what she is talking about. LIL is a lawyer too as well as a parent. She k is the laws.

I don't mind SWOT. I will, however, say that every state is different and I only know the law in Missouri. When I say something, please think of it as "in general".

 

[TheWalrus]

I agree that she cannot have it both ways, and neither can the court system. In other words, if the court states that you have to allow her in your house bc she is too disabled to take care of yourself, then you should have legal guardianship. Then she would not make choices on her mental/physical care, her SSI, etc - you would.

If the court doesn't think she needs a guardian, then there is no reason you should not be able to legally evict her. See where I am going?

As far as "diagnosis," does she have a formal, on paper, mental and physical diagnosis that she is disabled? If not, I would try to evict her on my own without an attorney according to the laws of your state. I agree that every time she does anything that warrants police intervention, you don't hesitate to call and file a report. Even screaming and cursing you is enough if she cannot control herself. Definitely any thefts, threats (whether or not you think she is sincere), damage to your home/property, etc.

I don't know your daughter but I would start with her - these are the conditions to live in our home. If you cannot live within those conditions, you must leave. Let her rant and rave, and start the ball rolling.

My daughter has Borderline (BPD) and I cannot imagine her in my home. Luckily, she is on disability. Like your daughter, she refuses inpatient treatment (although it was recommended) and she has other physical issues as well as a drug addiction she refuses to admit or do anything about. We almost let her move back in after a really bad accident that left her physically disabled on top of her mental disability. However, when she refused drug and psychiatric help, we said no - those were the conditions for her to live in my home and me feel even a slight sense of peace with her being here. I would be exactly where you are right now had we let her move in. Actually, worse bc she likes to harm herself when she doesn't get her way, destroy hers and other people's property in fits, and I would have gone crazy searching the house for drugs.

Keep getting other opinions. Keep trying. Keep reporting her to the police. And document everything she says and does/doesn't do to help you when you get a judge.

 

[JJNeedsHelps]

...Keep getting other opinions. Keep trying. Keep reporting her to the police. And document everything she says and does/doesn't do to help you when you get a judge.

I have audio recorded countless arguments at home ... and here is another "are you serious?" moment we had ... when we told the eviction lawyer about all the recordings he told us it that because she was not informed about being recorded that I could not admit them as evidence. (is this a real thing?) We were told to inform her every time that we have to talk that the conversation will be recorded, but then she amazingly shows total self control and restraint. She turns her attitude on and off at will. I've thought of having an indoor/outdoor security system installed (with video and sound - which I was going to do anyway because I run a business from home - and just tell her its on record all the time... and then wait until she can't contain herself anymore and just explodes. But when I think about this stuff I feel like I'm losing my mind and acting unbalanced myself.

We have kept written records of arguments that have occurred but they do not really produce the impact on listeners that a video or audio recording of her freaking out produces.

I think I'm going to call the police and ask again what are my rights... what behaviors can I call 911 over.

 

[TheWalrus]

I think the law varies state to state on recording. I know in my state, as long as one person in the conversation (you) knows it is being recorded, it is admissible. But if you tap your phone and record two people who have no idea that the device is on the phone, it isn't admissible. That is my state law on audio recording. I would check into it.

In my state, handwritten documentation (like what you are doing) is also admissible. It is also invaluable when giving dates and details about specific issues. After awhile, there are so many they blur together and you cannot recall specifics. You don't want to be vague about what is happening.

I would research everything I could about MY rights as a homeowner with an unwanted tenant in your residence. I would want to know how long she has to be absent before you could consider her "moved out." For instance, if she shacked up with her boyfriend for a month, blew up and tried to come home, would she be legally considered moved? What is the length of time, etc? And what exactly gives her tenant rights' and what they are? You might be surprised at what you could learn from some research. I would also research an attorney who specializes in those kinds of laws. If you went through the eviction process, I would think she would have to have an attorney to fight it. How would she pay for that? She might get a court appointed counsel, but it doesn't sound like she could pay for it on her own.

It sounds to me like, just from what you've said, that she COULD get disability, subsidized housing, food stamps, etc. But instead, she would rather remain in your home and let you foot all of the bills and tolerate her abuse. Who knows why some adult children do this? My daughter is the same - she will accept the help she wants, get handouts from others for the things that would be too much of an inconvenience for her. If she doesn't want to fill out the form and go to the appointment, she will find someone who will help her out, even if it is only temporary.

At least you aren't in denial. I know that I would probably also remove some of her conveniences. Chang the wifi password. You pay for the cell phone? Shut it off. I would "take care of her stuff" if she refused to clean it up, and I would lock her out of any areas of the house you don't want her in. She isn't entitled to access to the whole house, including your work/sleeping area.

Just some thoughts.

 

[Sister's Keeper]

As far as having her removed from the home by the police she has to commit a crime, and you will have to press charges then file an order of protection.

By committing a crime she needs to do something like assault you, steal from you, destroy property, or actually threaten you, as in saying she is going to harm you in some way, not saying "if you do this, then I will do that," but, essentially saying, "I am going to kill/physically harm you."

In addition you can call 911 if she threatens to harm herself. Again, psychiatric regulations vary from state to state, but if you manage to actually get her admitted to a psychiatric hospital you can tell the hospital where she has been admitted that she cannot return to your home. Here, at least, they have to attempt to secure her some housing.

I know that the psychiatric system is frustrating, but it arises from safeguards that were enacted to protect the mentally ill. An adult cannot be hospitalized against their will unless they are an imminent danger to themselves or others. The key word is "imminent."

A patient has to be actively homicidal or suicidal or so psychotic that they are unable to meet their basic needs.

My suggestion to you, and others have already given this, is to document. Take pictures of anything in your home that she has damaged. Take pictures of her room if it is trashed. Call 911 every time her behavior gets out of control. Remember the 911 dispatch line is recorded. Tell them that she is out of control and that you are afraid of her and that you are not safe and you need assistance. State, specifically, any threats she has made.

Borderline (BPD) is a difficult disorder to treat. They thrive on drama and chaos. While she is in your home try not to engage. Don't fight, don't argue, walk away and shut and lock a door behind you. If she gets loud or destructive call 911 and make sure that they can hear her.

An attorney isn't needed for eviction (we have rental properties) but a lawyer will make sure that the process goes smoothly and can't be contested on a technicality.

 

[Nature]

Hi JJ, I'm sorry you are going through this with your daughter and the stress it is causing yourself and other family members. I have nothing to add at the moment other than to encourage you to keep returning to this site for the support and advice from those who have walked in your shoes.

 

[JJNeedsHelps]

...I would research everything I could about MY rights as a homeowner with an unwanted tenant in your residence....

My wife and I are revisiting everything... we are going to take a fresh look at our situation and rights.

You pay for the cell phone? Shut it off. I would "take care of her stuff" if she refused to clean it up, and I would lock her out of any areas of the house you don't want her in. She isn't entitled to access to the whole house, including your work/sleeping area.

We do pay for EVERYTHING! However, we recently told her we were cancelling her cell phone number unless she got a job and paid us for it. That lead to weeks of battling, and of course she told everyone that we are determined to ruin her life. We stood our ground and she got a part time job at a local country club as a server. We thought, "progress" at first. But she is doing her typical routine... calling out "sick" 2 times already in her first three weeks on the job. I told her that as soon as she loses this job and "can't pay" her portion of the phone bill anymore, then I will call the cell phone company to cancel her line. Its been an ugly struggle that in her mind is the "smoking gun" that her mother and I are out to get her and "control" her. She keeps saying things like, "your my parents!!!!" ... "your supposed to help your children!!!". She drives us crazy with her over-the-top level of selfishness.

 

[JJNeedsHelps]

...you can call 911 if she threatens to harm herself. Again, psychiatric regulations vary from state to state, but if you manage to actually get her admitted to a psychiatric hospital you can tell the hospital where she has been admitted that she cannot return to your home. Here, at least, they have to attempt to secure her some housing.

I know that the psychiatric system is frustrating, but it arises from safeguards that were enacted to protect the mentally ill. An adult cannot be hospitalized against their will unless they are an imminent danger to themselves or others. The key word is "imminent."

A patient has to be actively homicidal or suicidal or so psychotic that they are unable to meet their basic needs.

We did have her removed to a psychiatric unit at a local hospital after a recent 911 call we made, I can't even remember what he argument was about, but my wife and I were trying to put our foot down about something, but she went into her room and started slicing her leg with a nail file and she posted it on Facebook or something. My son follows her on that account and got an alert in the next room (he typically closes himself off in his room when the battles are raging) and he informed my wife and I. We called 911.

Here is the kicker.... even though the hospital felt she was in need of serious psychiatric help they said she had to do it out-patient. They wanted us to come and get her. We said "no, she can't come back here." So... they released her onto the streets!!!! She made temporary arrangements for about 3 days, but that came to an end. Long story short... she called us at 3 in the morning saying she had no place to go, which led to the police getting involved, which led to me being warned that I'd be arrested if I did not let her back into the house.

 

[InsaneCdn]

She keeps saying things like, "your my parents!!!!" ... "your supposed to help your children!!!".

Define "help".
That really helped me clarify things.

We want to help our children become independent self-supporting adults.
Some of our kids want us to "help" them continue to be "helpless". THAT isn't help.

She is working. Can you "help" her get her own separate phone account, that is in HER name and that SHE pays for? It's a good step toward independence.

 

[A dad]

Wait a minute could it be that she has to be 21 to be considered a adult and be kicked out and that is why the police said that you have to take her back. In my country is 18 but in USA is 21 and I heard some states do not let you stop supporting you children until their 21.

 

[Feeling Sad]

Yes, you have to Iegally evict your daughter. The police will not help to remove her until you do.

I filed a restraining order with the courts for free. I went that route because of my son's extreme violence.

It can take several months to file an eviction. But, that also would have been free.

Go to your nearest county courthouse and sign up to see family help legal assistance at the courthouse. The service is free.

They advised me to file a restraining order with a move out order because he was dangerous and threatening my life. The domestic violence department helps you with all of the paperwork and you go in front of the judge, with them, to get your emergency restraining order.

The police then serve her with the emergency restraining order and the upcoming court date and escort her from the premises.

You then go in front of the judge a second time to finalize the order. Again, the legal assistants go with you. They help you all the way through the process for free.

If she comes back, they will remove her again, legally.

I had a mental health worker there to offer my son help on the day that they served him. Perhaps they could offer your daughter the shelter who could help to put her on the list for assisted housing or an apartment for the disabled in the future.

Evictions take months and they are able to stay in the house during the 3 to 4 months. My son would have become a lot more violent having the knowledge that I was going to evict him.

Your daughter does not have to be told until she is served with the restraining order. But with an eviction, she may stay in the house after she is served for several months while it is being processed.

I have 2 sisters,with schizophrenia, besides my son. I filed a 3 day quit eviction with one sister because she almost killed my father using hot water, bleach, and ammonia to kill her 'bugs' on clothes and bleach. He had a stroke and aspirational pneumonia from the toxic fumes. That is how they made mustard gas.

She Ieft without fighting it in court.

Go to the courthouse. They will help you. Get the doctor's written explanation of how the stress contributed to your wives heart attack. Get a doctor's explanation how your health is at risk with the stress and the need to take antianxiety medication. Your songs drinking is also a concern. Write a journal with her major threats and approximate dates. Include any police calls or hospital visits.

I was asked to write down the 2 most current violent episodes in detail for the restraining order. The last sheet was a general summary of your concerns.

You have the right to be safe.

Privately check into alternative housing for your daughter. A mental health worker can come to the house as a part of the menral health crisis team. Ask for crisis trained officers to serve her the paperwork. But, move forward now.

You DO NOT need an attorney. Yes, she is disabled, but she is an adult and is refusing treatment.

You have the right to be safe in your own home. Your son has the right to feel safe and not have to numb out with alcohol. The court also considered my youngest son who was 24. He slept with a knife.

Good luck. You will be successful.

 

[Feeling Sad]

I just read your previous post.

Yes, the system is a revolving door. They keep people only for 2 or 3 days, if even that.

They want them to go back home because then she is your responsibilty. If you evict or file a restraining order, then they have to help her. Parents do this purposely, so that their child qualifies to receive help. Hospitals often guilt trip parents. Yes, she will be homeless, but she will be in a better position to receive help.

Your main concern now is keeping your house safe. She will receive guidance and services from the shelter.