Hycodan ~ was I wrong?

[Kathy813]

difficult child tried to tell me that the counselors at the rehab center had also told them it was okay to use stuff like that for medicine purposes. I am waiting for a call back from the counselor at the rehab center to clarify exactly what was said so I know what to say if this happens again in the future. I have a feeling I won't hear back this weekend since it is already 5:33 and I still haven't gotten a call.

difficult child has not called or texted me which is unusual. She is either still mad at me or realizes that I busted her. Either way, silence is golden.

Janet, difficult child was going to a psychiatrist who was a "specialist" in "addictive diseases" and he regularly prescribed sleeping pills, xanax, and adderall to her. I just don't get it. People who really need it can't get it and the difficult child's of this world seem to have it handed to them.

Oh, and I need nitrous oxide to get dental work done. I had a lot of painful dental work done as a child and I can't even think of them putting a needle in my mouth without them giving me nitrous oxide first. Then again, if I were an addict, I'm sure I would have to think twice about that.

 

[klmno]

I'll just throw out what I was told in a treatment center, howver this was years ago and from what I hear, some of these things have changed. For one, when I was in over 25 years ago, they said never take psychiatric medications unless you are homocidal or suicidal or diagnosis'd with something like BiPolar (BP) or schiizophrenia. With anxiety, depression,etc that hasn't reached the level of life safety- no medications. These days, there are MANY psychiatrists, MH profs, etc, that will tell you differently. They will say if it's rx'd and legal and for a diagnosis, it's ok.

In NA, I was told that it isn't the drug that was the problem, it's the thinking and addictive nature in the person. I'm not sure how to summarize it briefly but I'm thinking that your daughter ending up with a narcotic medication for a sinus infection is a result of stinking thinking. on the other hand, if someone, even someone in NA, gets a broken nose and is in dire pain and a dr gives them a non-addictive pain killer, or even an addictive pain-killer, very short term and the person deosn't abuse it, gets extra support from the support system, etc, then this is not a problem. In every case, the addict is supposed to tell the rx'ing dr so the dr can do their best to steer away from the specific type of medication the person was addicted to. IOW, if a person was addicted to amphetimines, opiates, whatever, the dr will try to rx a medication that won't 'trigger' the same mental reaction.

Just my 2 cents. Clearly, no person who comes out of rehab and is really trying will decide that 'now is the time to get get some procedure that requires a pain medication'. And not ALL people coming out of rehab relapse - it is very common though.

 

[Kathy813]

The inpatient treatment center and all of the halfway houses that difficult child has looked into have said that prescribed psychiatric drugs are okay.

I agree with you about the "stinking thinking." I told difficult child that someone in recovery should have told the doctor that she couldn't take anything with a narcotic in it. Of course, she just told me that I didn't know what I was talking about. It was very evident to me during our dentist conversation that she is looking for ways to rationalize that taking drugs is okay under certain circumstances. She hasn't wrapped her head around the fact that she can't ever drink or use drugs again.

 

[klmno]

The thing about psychiatric medications is a debate in itself. In my psot before, I was just relaying what I was taught and my opinion based on that.

My opinion on the psychiatric medications is that I can see a point in what I was taught. First, back in the 70's, many housewives were being rx'd medications like Valium,as an example, even when they shouldn't have been. Teens stole them and found other ways to get them illegaly. They then became a major drug problem. All a person coming out of treatment would have to do would go to a psychiatrist and say they have anxiety problems, and then they could do just what you think your daughter is doing now- trying to find a way to get them and take them that would be 'okay' with everyone. Most anti-anxiety medications are highly addictive.

The trend some years lately hsa been pain killers. So now, psychiatric medications are okay, pain medications aren't. Next will be the problem with stims rx'd for ADHD and being widely abused by kids/teens/young adults. Obviously, if someone REALLY needs any of these medications, they are okay. But if they have been addicted to them and can live without them- even if that means suffering with MILD, non-intrusive type issues, they are better off staying off them than to risk a bigger addiction problem, that could cost them a whole lot more than failing a test or being grumpy. But, there are a lot of different trains of thought on that.

I don't think it's that "someone in recovery should have told the dr"- SHE should have told the dr. And I've had tons of sinus infections and bronchitis and maybe this isn't the norm, but I've never had a dr rx me a narcotic for it- and I haven't asked them not to because it never occured to me that any dr would. JNHO

I do want to say that I'm sure you are disappointed but it's good that you noticed this and are handling it well. All these things can only help.

 

[Steely]

Kathy you were dead on with not getting the Hycodan. I had Matt do this to me multiple times, and although he is not an addict, he still is seeking mind alternating medications. Like someone said here, just draw the line in the sand.
*I will purchase for you any medications that are not a narcotic. Beyond that you are on your own.*

I am amazed how Matt can walk into a Dr and get stuff like this - and I on the other hand can't even get Ambien!!!

Hang in there - you are on the right track with the sober house, etc. Just stick to your guns when she tries to manipulate.

 

[toughlovin]

So much depends on the medications.... so anti anxiety medications in general tend to be addicted. There are some being used now that are not addictive... they may not be as effective but they help. My difficult child has anxiety issues and is being treated for it but not with the addictive ones. Pain killers are also notoroiously addicive, huge problem with things like Oxycotin out there. I don't know how addictive the stimulants are, but they are drugs that are often abused by teens. Oh and the OTC cough medicines like Robitussen are also abused by teens, my son being one of them. You drink a bottle of robitussen and you hallucinate!!

I do however think psychiatric medications are important and given that a lot of people with addiction problems also have mental health problems, treating them with appropriate psychiatric medications can be really helpful and appropriate in recovery. In the sober houses my son has been at (One good one and one not so good) they did allow psychiatric medications but I think certain ones were not allowed... But clearly anti depressants, which are not addictive can make a lot of sense, and certainly the anti psychotic drugs would make sense.

TL

 

[Kathy813]

Klmo, I wasn't clear in how I wrote that. I meant, as someone who was in recovery, difficult child should have told the doctor that she couldn't take a narcotic. Not that someone else should have told the doctor. I guess it is a good thing that I am not an English teacher.

difficult child called last night as if nothing happened. I told her that I was still upset and asked if she knew why. She hesitated and said, "because I tried to get a narcotic." I told her yes and what Nancy told me about not even having a mouthwash with alcohol in it. She laughed at that and I told her that I didn't think she was serious about recovery and to not call me until she was in the halfway house.

 

[Nancy]

Good for you Kathy, you were direct and firm. I hope you get to talk to the counselor at the rehab center to find out exactly what they told her. It is beyond my wildest dreams to imagine any reputable treatment center would not make this information an impartant part of their treatment plan.

Nancy

 

[klmno]

"because I tried to get a narcotic.".

That sounds like an admission to me....that the dr didn't automatically rx that medication for a sinus infection, she TRIED to get it. At least she admitted it shortly after you called her on it.

 

[Nancy]

Kathy,

After looking and looking I finally found the booklet. I was also able to find it as a pdf file on the internet.

Hycodan is a Class A medication, avoid absolutely.

You can print this and give it to difficult child.

Nancy

 

[Kathy813]

Thank you so much, Nancy! That is great. I have printed out a copy for both me and difficult child. One thing puzzling me is the fact that difficult child has been prescribed and allowed to use Klonopin which is a Class A drug. She was even allowed to bring it into the inpatient rehab center. Her Celexa is among the allowed Class C drugs.

 

[Nancy]

Your welcome Kathy. I'm thinking maybe this list should be archived for future reference. I don't know about the klonopin either. I do know there are a lot of doctors out there that don't know how to treat an addict when they go in for other medical conditions. Many doctors just don't know as much as we do about which drugs an addict can or cannot take. difficult child told her doctor that she was an alcoholic when she went in for severe pain due to a kidney infection and he prescibed her a pain medication that we did not fill and promptly destroyed. I don't have a lot of confidence in their knowledge of addiction.

Nancy

 

[DammitJanet]

I have been on benzo's for years. They are not as addicting for some folks. I can take them or not take them and I am fine. They just work on my anxiety...I dont attempt to rob little old ladies to get money for klonopin if I dont have my scripts. I can wait...lol.

One thing Klmno wrote reminded me of something. All this talk about narcotics and addicts is about mild stuff and things like the cough syrup and her sinus pain and things like getting a tooth filled. If she was in a car accident or had to have surgery, there would be no doubt that she would be given narcotics. She would just be monitored.

Same thing happens when I have to go in for surgery or anything like that. I go in already with medication onboard so whatever they have to give me is going to have to be stronger than what they would give a person who doesnt take pain medications everyday. Doctors know this and they are able to adjust for it.

In an addicts case, they would work to get them off of narcotics and onto something non-addicting fast...but the fact is that if you are truly in pain, pain medications relieve pain and dont give you a high if you use them the way they are prescribed.

 

[Nancy]

Actually Janet there was a man in difficult child's outpatient program who needed surgery on his foot and the doctors were not going to put him to sleep because of his addiction. He told the group they were also going to adjust the pain medications they normally give. Of course in very serious cases they would have to use some medications they would prefer not to, but it doesn't help to just monitor the patient. The problem isn't during surgery, it's what it does to the person's brain in triggering the cravings and urges and in some cases the withdrawal symptoms that's the problem.

Did you see the episode of Private Practice where the dcotor who is an alcoholic needed stitches and she would not let them give her even a local?

The body does not know the difference between taking needed pain medication and abusing drugs

Cough syrup is one of the most troublesome substances to addicts.

From http://www.tgorski.com/gorski_articles/prescription_drugs_&_relapse.htm

"recognize that any use of mood altering drugs may reactivate craving, impair your judgment and impulse control, and cause difficulty in thinking clearly and managing emotions. Jerry, a recovering alcoholic, was in a serious car accident that mangled his legs. The severe pain required narcotic pain killers and the muscular and skeletal damage required the use of muscle relaxants. Even though these medications were given in minimal therapeutic doses and discontinued as soon as possible Jerry experienced withdrawal, agitation, and confusion when the medication was stopped. He wasn't prepared for this, and when the cravings hit he was recuperating alone at home and had lost regular contact with his Twelve Step Group and counselor."

It didn't matter that the doctor monitored the use of the drugs, the addict patient still suffers the result of such medications.

Narcotic pain medications are absolutely a problem for addicts. They can and will have negative consequences whether the addict abuses them or not.

Think of it in terms of alcohol. If alcohol was the pain medication of choice no one would think of offering an alcoholic a fifth after surgery. It wouldn't matter whether the patient was monitored or not. The body doesn't know it is being monitored. The body craves the alcohol. The alcoholic will go straight from the hospital to the nearest bar. An acoholic cannot have just one drink, for whatever reason. An addict cannot have just one mood altering or addictive drug. There may be life threatening times when it is necessary but that isn't the norm. There are alternatives and safer drugs but unless you have a doctor well versed in addiction you have to know yourself what you can and cannot take and be prepared for the effects.

You are very lucky that you don't have problems withdrawing from benzos. There were several patients in difficult child's treatment center detoxing from benzos and the counselor said they are harder to come off than most other drugs. One young lady in particular was having an awful time detoxing and her withdrawal symptoms could go on for years she was told.

Nancy

 

[Signorina]

As for cough syrup-huge problem with even OTC stuff. Kids call it robo-tripping or drank or syrup- and few other dozen names. Popular topic in a lot of rap songs.

Problem is that when you start mixing opiates and alcohol, your body forgets that it needs oxygen and the breathing reflex gets shallow, carbon dioxide levels get sky high, people start acting crazy and everyone laughs because "look they're so high" not realizing that they're getting the crazies due to too much carbon dioxide. And then they go into cardiac arrest.

Which a local HS junior did during the homecoming dance this year. Lucky kid- defribrillator on site and paramedics 2 minutes away plus plenty of level headed sober adults who knew what to do. An hour later he would've been at an "after party" and maybe not so lucky.

Speaking of which-opiates are a huge danger for anyone with sleep apnea as they dull the all ready poor breathing reflex. My dad had apnea and had dangerously high carbon dioxide levels post surgery due to the pain medications. Partly responsible for the bad outcomes that eventually caused his death :-(

Our pediatrician - when the boys were babies - was a strong advocate against parents having ANY rx narcotics on premises due to the potential for unintentional poisoning because the outcomes were almost always fatal

 

[DammitJanet]

Thats true kathy but...if it is between life and death and addiction, I think you choose life. Or I would. You can work on getting back on the wagon. Now Im not saying someone comes straight out of rehab and attempts to cut themselves so they can get stitches. That would be suspect to me.

 

[Nomad]

This is VERY suspect to me.

You were right to question it and if you wish (in terms of personal involvement)
from this point forward look at everything carefully and double check everything with her doctors and sponsors.

Remember what my friend said: How do you know when an addict is lying? Their mouths are moving.


Narcotics/Klonopin (I read fast....) would be of great concern. Addictive medications. It's hard to believe a doctor would give her this and if she does get a script for any of this, hard to believe more than a couple of tablets.

At this time, the risk for lying and addiction is great and although it should improve, it will always be present.

 

[rejectedmom]

Kathy you did good. My difficult child who abused both drugs and alcohol is not allowed any narcotics or cough medications with alcohol in them. That is what he was told in sober house and in AA meetings. His psycotherapeudic drugs do not weigh in on this but he is not taking any that are of a questionable nature. It helps that his perscribing doctor was also in the same practice as his counseler. We only help difficult child when he is making a real effor.t If he is trying to scam me or others we cut off all monetary support. You know your daughter so if your gut says she is scamming you, you need to follow it because 99.9% of the time you will be right. The other 1% she should be able to tolerate because of her history. Blowing a smoke screen of anger is typical behavior to cover up their failings. -RM

 

[InsaneCdn]

I have been on benzo's for years. They are not as addicting for some folks. I can take them or not take them and I am fine. They just work on my anxiety...I dont attempt to rob little old ladies to get money for klonopin if I dont have my scripts. I can wait...lol.
...
In an addicts case, they would work to get them off of narcotics and onto something non-addicting fast...but the fact is that if you are truly in pain, pain medications relieve pain and dont give you a high if you use them the way they are prescribed.

Janet...
First, you are obviously not an addict. If you were, these statements would not be true!

The addicts and alcoholics I've known (close family) all have one pattern of reaction to this stuff, and the rest of us (related by blood) have a different reaction. I am convinced that there is a body-chemistry issue involved. Not that they are necessarily born that way, although there can be that component as well - but rather, abusing drugs modifies body chemistry, permanently. At which point, using properly isn't even an option any more.

These were all "recovered" addicts, not active. They knew their limits. They all refused any related medications... just could not take the risk. The only one who actually fought for and got narcotics, was in palliative care... because at that point, it didn't matter any more, pain control was the only thing that mattered.

I'm TRYING to help our teens understand this. We have a tendency to addictions in our family. If we do not abuse, it seems like we can still benefit from the full range of medications. We tend to need medications... so, don't mess up your whole future by doing street drugs.

 

[Ephchap]

I ditto what everyone has pretty much said.

Right after my difficult child got out of his 10 month residential stay, he had to have an implant put in. (He had to have a tooth pulled while in residential.) We talked with the oral surgeon and he was very understanding. I can't remember what the medications were, but the nurse questioned the doctor as if she didn't hear him correctly when he told her what they were going to use during the oral surgery. He very firmly repeated what he had said. He was also not given any type of vicodin or any other narcotic for pain afterwards - just regular tylenol type stuff.

At the dentist, he can no longer have the nitris oxide either.

That's a great list, Nancy. Thanks for pulling it up. I know my son has a similar list that he keeps with his stuff so he knows what he can and cannot take.

Kathy, hugs. This journey is not an easy one, that's for sure.

Deb