L
Liahona
Guest
My heart aches for you and your kids. Sorry I don't have any advice. Just sympathy.
I believe I am raising a Psychopath at 6 years old
- Thread starter InsaneCdn
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AnnieO
Shooting from the Hip
Hi there - and LOTS of hugs!
OK, I'll tell you a little about me. I'm a stepmom. I'm the kids' mom for the reasons that matter, though. Onyxx is 16. She is manipulative, destructive, violent, and can be a perfect angel when she chooses. She's hurt me, more times than I've mentioned here, and I love her, but I really don't like her. Jett is 13, diagnosis'd Fetal Alcohol and ADHD, though I strongly suspect Asperger's. He doesn't rage - Onyxx is my rager.
BUT - apparently Onyxx was like Stevie when she was a baby, a toddler, and on. I caught her deliberately hurting one of the cats at age 10. I'm positive it wasn't the first time. The cats learned to hide, and we learned to lock stuff up (she stole many things from us).
I felt so alone. SO alone. I'd married husband, and my parents were local, and his too... As well as the kids' bio mom. (UGLY custody battle.) husband didn't listen, told me I was always so negative. My Mom pretty much told me to put on my big girl panties and quit whining. Dad... As much as I love him, he just didn't get it. mother in law and father in law would get into things, and just make things worse with Onyxx. I was literally ready to throw the whole lot of them overboard. And then... Onyxx hit my Dad. Once. Never again. Suddenly my parents were in line - husband still wasn't, and my parents don't live next door - but Mom went on and on and on about how bad Onyxx's behavior was. mother in law called the kid names to her face (druggie, sl*t, etc.)... And then... I found the board. I found a place people UNDERSTOOD!
A few months after I found this place, Onyxx beat me up pretty badly. husband convinced me not to call the cops. A few months after that, I was actually looking at divorce papers - I couldn't take anymore. And then he "got it".
Yes, some of us do have a support system. I won't say it's been roses. But the whole point is - no matter what - you've got us. And it took YEARS for us to get a decent idea of a diagnosis for Jett, and we're still wondering about Onyxx. (Previous counselor was into dissociative identity disorder - BWAHAHAHAHA! - We have a bipolar diagnosis, but since she won't take medications, we can't get her stable...)
I can only say what helped us. I know you're not in the USA, which in some ways can be hard for those of us that ARE, to understand. What about asking the school for a referral for services? Just a thought. Clearly, they can see some of the issues, too.
And... One last thing.
OK, I'll tell you a little about me. I'm a stepmom. I'm the kids' mom for the reasons that matter, though. Onyxx is 16. She is manipulative, destructive, violent, and can be a perfect angel when she chooses. She's hurt me, more times than I've mentioned here, and I love her, but I really don't like her. Jett is 13, diagnosis'd Fetal Alcohol and ADHD, though I strongly suspect Asperger's. He doesn't rage - Onyxx is my rager.
BUT - apparently Onyxx was like Stevie when she was a baby, a toddler, and on. I caught her deliberately hurting one of the cats at age 10. I'm positive it wasn't the first time. The cats learned to hide, and we learned to lock stuff up (she stole many things from us).
I felt so alone. SO alone. I'd married husband, and my parents were local, and his too... As well as the kids' bio mom. (UGLY custody battle.) husband didn't listen, told me I was always so negative. My Mom pretty much told me to put on my big girl panties and quit whining. Dad... As much as I love him, he just didn't get it. mother in law and father in law would get into things, and just make things worse with Onyxx. I was literally ready to throw the whole lot of them overboard. And then... Onyxx hit my Dad. Once. Never again. Suddenly my parents were in line - husband still wasn't, and my parents don't live next door - but Mom went on and on and on about how bad Onyxx's behavior was. mother in law called the kid names to her face (druggie, sl*t, etc.)... And then... I found the board. I found a place people UNDERSTOOD!
A few months after I found this place, Onyxx beat me up pretty badly. husband convinced me not to call the cops. A few months after that, I was actually looking at divorce papers - I couldn't take anymore. And then he "got it".
Yes, some of us do have a support system. I won't say it's been roses. But the whole point is - no matter what - you've got us. And it took YEARS for us to get a decent idea of a diagnosis for Jett, and we're still wondering about Onyxx. (Previous counselor was into dissociative identity disorder - BWAHAHAHAHA! - We have a bipolar diagnosis, but since she won't take medications, we can't get her stable...)
I can only say what helped us. I know you're not in the USA, which in some ways can be hard for those of us that ARE, to understand. What about asking the school for a referral for services? Just a thought. Clearly, they can see some of the issues, too.
And... One last thing.
Steely
Active Member
Welcome EPT.............
I am Steely, and have been on this board for quite some time. I am sorry that I have not responded sooner to your thread, I keep seeing it and meaning to read it, and I have not found the time. I am glad that you have found us!!!
I personally have found this group of family to be my sanity and best friends for the last 5 years. They have been through hell and back with me, and yet they stuck around
I am single as well, and raised Matt as a single mom, with a brief time of being married to his bio dad, and a brief time being married to another loser. Really, all along, it was just me. No support from bio dad or friends. My Mom and Dad sort of supported me, but they could not handle Matt, and they would end up getting just as out of control with him as he was - which only compounded his problems. I guess after awhile I kind of got used to being alone, because it was easier to handle Matt by myself, without other people telling me their 2 cents about what I "should" be doing. As far as sanity? Hmmm...there are many things I did. Gardening was probably the easiest escape for me, because I could be close by, but also in my own little world.
I am not going to say that Matt and your difficult child sound identical, but there are a lot of similarities. Especially the fact that I was convinced that he was going to become a psychopath. I had read all the books on conduct disorder, and he had already met the criteria of urinating in the house, setting fires, saying he wanted to kill people, etc. This was when he was 4. About 6 months went by, with me watching his every move, and the fear settling deeper and deeper into my soul that - yep he was going to be a psychopath. It consumed me. Then one day I realized that I had labeled my son - at the age of 4!!! When we label anyone, but especially a child, that person almost always live up to the expectations we have created for them in our mind. The person knows on a sub conscious level the box we have decided to put them in by our unconscious actions. For instance the fear we have in our eyes when they do something, or the way we respond to them in astonishment, all create the reality of the other person's life. So I switched gears - and REFUSED to put my label or stamp on him - but rather he was "Matt, my son with many challenges". I didn't know the future, so who was I to label him with a diagnosis that adults have, not children.
So, my first recommendation would be to throw out all the materials you have read about psychopaths. The reason that children are not diagnosis as psychopaths is because they are children, and children are malleable beings. He might be exhibiting those symptoms, but he is 6, so therefore his behaviors fall into a whole other category. Ignore what his actions might be speaking to your personal fears, and focus on the now and present. You will find a very large boulder lift off your shoulder just with this one step.
Secondly, when Matt was 6 he was put on Ritalin. Bad, bad, move. He became suicidal, and started smashing his head into his desk at school and screaming he wanted to die. The private school, (after kicking him out) suggested that I put him in psychiatric hospital for a full evaluation. That was actually the best move, I had done in his 6 years, and that is what I would suggest as your first move. I would talk to him first, and tell him that the next time he does something illegal like hurting the cat or his brothers, you will know his mind is needing some help, and you are going to admit him to the hospital. Not as a fear tactic, but more as a preparation for letting him know these behaviors are very, very serious, and if someone is acting in this sort of way, they need to get help.
Once he is in a hospital, then they can run every single test they want, and explore different medications. Or they might want to send him onto an Residential Treatment Center (RTC). He will not be able to keep up his charming charade for long in a phosph - I would say it would last a day. Then professionals will be there to observe and witness, and make the necessary adjustments. I assume phosph for children is available in Canada?
My other random thoughts ~~~~~
Banging his head on things is indicative of Sensory Integration Disorder. Matt used to bite his arms until they bled, same sort of thing. They have Occupational Therapist (OT) for that type of thing now, which may be helpful.
You say he doesn't have autism, which is probably correct - however - there many degrees on the autism spectrum. MANY. One of which that you probably know of is Aspergers. Matt is on the spectrum, and you would never know it by meeting him, ever. I found it out through neuro-psychiatric testing, which consists of a whole day long of IQ tests as well as other neurological tests. This diagnosis doesn't help much, except it explains the way he thinks better. And in the US it also qualified him for special adaptive classes.
Psychopath is a personality disorder - but has anyone found a reason to think your difficult child may have a mental illness - like bi polar, or a mood regulations problem? If so, there are many medications out there that can help even out the angry out bursts, and violent surges. You said your difficult child took Risperdal which is an anti-pyschotic, and it can definitely help some people. But there are also many, many mood stabilizers out there.
First and foremost I want you to know you are NOT alone. I spent the first 13 years of Matt's life feeling like the worst Mom EVER. i was completely ostracized from my local community, I had angry fathers on my front porch screaming threats in my face, I had the police on my doorstep it seemed every month, I had some unsavory character tell my fiancee not to marry me because my son was psycho, I had parents refuse to let Matt be in the same class as him. I lived in a dark hole at times. Other times, I rose my head high, and just walked down the street. It was a struggle. The whole 17 years, I struggles, and then I finally had to send him to an Residential Treatment Center (RTC). He got kicked out of 3 RTCs in 2 years, and landed back on my doorstep when he was 19. Manic and out of his every loving mind!!!
HOWEVER..........things are turning. I see it daily. Matt is different. He is still dependent financially on me to some extent, but he lives on his own, takes care of himself and I see daily that he is working on his anger. The frontal lobe is not fully developed in men until they are 27 (again why most professionals are hesitant to label children with personality disorders) and you will see that many of our board members kids start to turn what used to look like a hopeless life around, when they are in their 20's.
WHEW........how was that for long winded I hope it helped, just a little.
From all of this keep in mind Three things: This is NOT your fault. Throw out the label. Get him into a psychiatric hospital.
I am Steely, and have been on this board for quite some time. I am sorry that I have not responded sooner to your thread, I keep seeing it and meaning to read it, and I have not found the time. I am glad that you have found us!!!
I personally have found this group of family to be my sanity and best friends for the last 5 years. They have been through hell and back with me, and yet they stuck around I am single as well, and raised Matt as a single mom, with a brief time of being married to his bio dad, and a brief time being married to another loser. Really, all along, it was just me. No support from bio dad or friends. My Mom and Dad sort of supported me, but they could not handle Matt, and they would end up getting just as out of control with him as he was - which only compounded his problems. I guess after awhile I kind of got used to being alone, because it was easier to handle Matt by myself, without other people telling me their 2 cents about what I "should" be doing. As far as sanity? Hmmm...there are many things I did. Gardening was probably the easiest escape for me, because I could be close by, but also in my own little world.
I am not going to say that Matt and your difficult child sound identical, but there are a lot of similarities. Especially the fact that I was convinced that he was going to become a psychopath. I had read all the books on conduct disorder, and he had already met the criteria of urinating in the house, setting fires, saying he wanted to kill people, etc. This was when he was 4. About 6 months went by, with me watching his every move, and the fear settling deeper and deeper into my soul that - yep he was going to be a psychopath. It consumed me. Then one day I realized that I had labeled my son - at the age of 4!!! When we label anyone, but especially a child, that person almost always live up to the expectations we have created for them in our mind. The person knows on a sub conscious level the box we have decided to put them in by our unconscious actions. For instance the fear we have in our eyes when they do something, or the way we respond to them in astonishment, all create the reality of the other person's life. So I switched gears - and REFUSED to put my label or stamp on him - but rather he was "Matt, my son with many challenges". I didn't know the future, so who was I to label him with a diagnosis that adults have, not children.
So, my first recommendation would be to throw out all the materials you have read about psychopaths. The reason that children are not diagnosis as psychopaths is because they are children, and children are malleable beings. He might be exhibiting those symptoms, but he is 6, so therefore his behaviors fall into a whole other category. Ignore what his actions might be speaking to your personal fears, and focus on the now and present. You will find a very large boulder lift off your shoulder just with this one step.
Secondly, when Matt was 6 he was put on Ritalin. Bad, bad, move. He became suicidal, and started smashing his head into his desk at school and screaming he wanted to die. The private school, (after kicking him out) suggested that I put him in psychiatric hospital for a full evaluation. That was actually the best move, I had done in his 6 years, and that is what I would suggest as your first move. I would talk to him first, and tell him that the next time he does something illegal like hurting the cat or his brothers, you will know his mind is needing some help, and you are going to admit him to the hospital. Not as a fear tactic, but more as a preparation for letting him know these behaviors are very, very serious, and if someone is acting in this sort of way, they need to get help.
Once he is in a hospital, then they can run every single test they want, and explore different medications. Or they might want to send him onto an Residential Treatment Center (RTC). He will not be able to keep up his charming charade for long in a phosph - I would say it would last a day. Then professionals will be there to observe and witness, and make the necessary adjustments. I assume phosph for children is available in Canada?
My other random thoughts ~~~~~
Banging his head on things is indicative of Sensory Integration Disorder. Matt used to bite his arms until they bled, same sort of thing. They have Occupational Therapist (OT) for that type of thing now, which may be helpful.
You say he doesn't have autism, which is probably correct - however - there many degrees on the autism spectrum. MANY. One of which that you probably know of is Aspergers. Matt is on the spectrum, and you would never know it by meeting him, ever. I found it out through neuro-psychiatric testing, which consists of a whole day long of IQ tests as well as other neurological tests. This diagnosis doesn't help much, except it explains the way he thinks better. And in the US it also qualified him for special adaptive classes.
Psychopath is a personality disorder - but has anyone found a reason to think your difficult child may have a mental illness - like bi polar, or a mood regulations problem? If so, there are many medications out there that can help even out the angry out bursts, and violent surges. You said your difficult child took Risperdal which is an anti-pyschotic, and it can definitely help some people. But there are also many, many mood stabilizers out there.
First and foremost I want you to know you are NOT alone. I spent the first 13 years of Matt's life feeling like the worst Mom EVER. i was completely ostracized from my local community, I had angry fathers on my front porch screaming threats in my face, I had the police on my doorstep it seemed every month, I had some unsavory character tell my fiancee not to marry me because my son was psycho, I had parents refuse to let Matt be in the same class as him. I lived in a dark hole at times. Other times, I rose my head high, and just walked down the street. It was a struggle. The whole 17 years, I struggles, and then I finally had to send him to an Residential Treatment Center (RTC). He got kicked out of 3 RTCs in 2 years, and landed back on my doorstep when he was 19. Manic and out of his every loving mind!!!
HOWEVER..........things are turning. I see it daily. Matt is different. He is still dependent financially on me to some extent, but he lives on his own, takes care of himself and I see daily that he is working on his anger. The frontal lobe is not fully developed in men until they are 27 (again why most professionals are hesitant to label children with personality disorders) and you will see that many of our board members kids start to turn what used to look like a hopeless life around, when they are in their 20's.
WHEW........how was that for long winded
I hope it helped, just a little. From all of this keep in mind Three things: This is NOT your fault. Throw out the label. Get him into a psychiatric hospital.
L
Liahona
Guest
You might have already tried this. If you have sorry for being redundant. Would it work to get two sitters? One for the easy child kids and one for difficult child? Take difficult child to a different environment (Like sitters home or empty play ground). Among the qualifications for sitting difficult child would be no pets or kids younger than 16 and the sitter must be an adult. When you pick up difficult child search him for any items taken from sitters home. The pcs could have a happy time with you or you could have a break to yourself. I had to do this when going to court. Couldn't take the kids, husband had to be there, couldn't leave difficult child 1 with a normal sitter. He was attacking the other kids. He was fast and charming. Sometimes all the warning I got was a small sound. I'd turn around and there would difficult child 1 be with a rope around difficult child 2's neck. Of course he was so charming the sitters all thought I was nuts. I didn't care what they thought as long as they followed my rules for him.
Would it be worth the fight with ex to have ex take him for weekends? You could put it that the stress of difficult child is causing you cancer and if you die he gets difficult child full time.
Just trying to think of ways for you to get some relief.
Would it be worth the fight with ex to have ex take him for weekends? You could put it that the stress of difficult child is causing you cancer and if you die he gets difficult child full time.
Just trying to think of ways for you to get some relief.
AnnieO
Shooting from the Hip
...About the Risperidone... What dosage is he on?
The reason I asked is that we gave Onyxx .25mg in the morning, .25mg after school and .5mg at bedtime. It worked great until she started refusing it. And at the time she was 13, over 5 feet tall and around 130 lbs... MUCH bigger than a 6-y/o. And it knocked her flat.
The reason I asked is that we gave Onyxx .25mg in the morning, .25mg after school and .5mg at bedtime. It worked great until she started refusing it. And at the time she was 13, over 5 feet tall and around 130 lbs... MUCH bigger than a 6-y/o. And it knocked her flat.
buddy
New Member
from eatpraytravel: My doctor tells me the ONLY medication available for my son is the Respiridone
Oh my, we would be in big trouble if that was ever said to my son. Is there a reason they said that? There are not only other medications in that class that might work but other classes of medications that might work. For my son there is an enzyme issue so many medications are not metabolized and either could cause major reactions or no response so we have limits and even with that there are choices that work. He actually was on risperidone and it was a nightmare. same for seroquel which many say is a better choice than risperdal/risperidone. There is the whole anti seizure block of medications that cross over for behavior/mood help, there are medications like clonidine, tenex etc. which are blood pressure medications but are used to help kids with behaivoral challenges (that helps my son with his aggression in a huge huge way...still agressive but not the daily rages/restraint etc. just bursts here and there and he can be turned around). I'm not medication expert for sure but just from going through it that comment makes no sense to me. Our docs are great about explaining their thougths, what could happen in the future, how medications work and they include me in the vote when choosing between options. So they have taught me at least that there is always an option. Maybe not time for only a new medication but a new doctor? I understand the medical system is totally different there than here, right? (for the good and the bad somtimes I imagine)... so not sure how easy that would be to do...wow, another huge challenge for you. He is lucky to have you. I know you say you dont feel that in some ways but, he really is.
Oh my, we would be in big trouble if that was ever said to my son. Is there a reason they said that? There are not only other medications in that class that might work but other classes of medications that might work. For my son there is an enzyme issue so many medications are not metabolized and either could cause major reactions or no response so we have limits and even with that there are choices that work. He actually was on risperidone and it was a nightmare. same for seroquel which many say is a better choice than risperdal/risperidone. There is the whole anti seizure block of medications that cross over for behavior/mood help, there are medications like clonidine, tenex etc. which are blood pressure medications but are used to help kids with behaivoral challenges (that helps my son with his aggression in a huge huge way...still agressive but not the daily rages/restraint etc. just bursts here and there and he can be turned around). I'm not medication expert for sure but just from going through it that comment makes no sense to me. Our docs are great about explaining their thougths, what could happen in the future, how medications work and they include me in the vote when choosing between options. So they have taught me at least that there is always an option. Maybe not time for only a new medication but a new doctor? I understand the medical system is totally different there than here, right? (for the good and the bad somtimes I imagine)... so not sure how easy that would be to do...wow, another huge challenge for you. He is lucky to have you. I know you say you dont feel that in some ways but, he really is.
L
Liahona
Guest
How do you manage to work? If no one will take him and you have such long hours?
My son started medications about age 6. We tried lots of different ones. None of them worked for him, but they might work for your son.
My son started medications about age 6. We tried lots of different ones. None of them worked for him, but they might work for your son.
Have you met with the new psychiatrist yet?
Try to get more than just medications adjustments - really push for re-evaluation, not even just second-opinion.
You need this person to take enough time to develop their own, independent opinion.
psychiatrist will definitely be more up-to-date and more willing to try various medications options, than a pediatrician or fam doctor would be.
Try to get more than just medications adjustments - really push for re-evaluation, not even just second-opinion.
You need this person to take enough time to develop their own, independent opinion.
psychiatrist will definitely be more up-to-date and more willing to try various medications options, than a pediatrician or fam doctor would be.
L
Liahona
Guest
Yeah, this is way out of a family docs league. Though most doctors won't say so.
You are between a rock and a hard spot when it comes to babysitting.
You are between a rock and a hard spot when it comes to babysitting.
ready2run
New Member
i just want to point out that canada has different laws about medications than the us and alot of things available in the us are not available in canada as our drug screening process is alot more extensive and they kind of wait alot to see how things go with most drugs in the us before legalizing them here, if there are too many side effects they don't go through. also because the child is underage the doctor is very limited in what she can perscribe and he will probably need to be re-evaluated(probably by a psychologist) and then get in to see the psychiatrist a couple times before they will perscribe anything else, which can take a long, long time in canada because there are always waiting lists for these types of things. at least that's how it works in my part of the country. stratera and clonodine(i think, maybe clonopine?) are also available here along with ritalin and other ritalin like medications. my psychiatrist told me that's all that is available for kids that age.
R2R -
Depends on what prov plus what psychiatrist you get... we've had psychiatrists tell us x or y can't be done... and when we finally got a top-notch psychiatrist? all of that was a whack of agricultural fertilizer - the other doctor was not keeping up with the latest advancements.
Some top-notch psychiatrists look at "how bad the situation is" and factor that in as well...
Depends on what prov plus what psychiatrist you get... we've had psychiatrists tell us x or y can't be done... and when we finally got a top-notch psychiatrist? all of that was a whack of agricultural fertilizer - the other doctor was not keeping up with the latest advancements.
Some top-notch psychiatrists look at "how bad the situation is" and factor that in as well...
Some. Really major centres with children's hospitals usually have it - but those are not in all provinces, and in the bigger provinces not necessarily within reach of a good portion of the territory.
Many other places have some form of psychiatric hospital for kids... for example, extreme self-harm. But not for '"impossible to manage".
RTCs are also hard to come by - there are "some", but either have narrow criteria or you have to be past a certain age and totally "unmanageable" to get in.
Respite care for kids with psychiatric issues is almost unheard of in some parts of Canada.
Many other places have some form of psychiatric hospital for kids... for example, extreme self-harm. But not for '"impossible to manage".
RTCs are also hard to come by - there are "some", but either have narrow criteria or you have to be past a certain age and totally "unmanageable" to get in.
Respite care for kids with psychiatric issues is almost unheard of in some parts of Canada.
Steely
Active Member
Yes, Matt is still on mood stabilizer medications. Depakote and Lamictal. I can say that the medications help maybe 1/3 of his issues???? It helps him from going too far into a manic state, and too far into a depressive state, but he still has mood variances. His anger is still a problem, as well as other many other things.........but slowly things are improving. I would not go back and have his life without medications, as there were times, where they helped immensely.....it is all a bit of a constant shuffling match, to find the right dr/therapy, medications, and environment. When all 3 work, it is amazing....when even one is off kilter it can start a landslide of chaos.
Steely
Active Member
It seems as if ETP loves difficult child would fall under causing extreme harm - that would qualify I would hope?
In the states if you break the law, even as a child, you can call the police, and if the child has a mental illness you can request they be taken to phosph.
Or I guess ETP could call the police if difficult child harms, and have the judicial system help???
EPT - Not necessary to post details on this, but... just wondering. Is there any chance that what you do for a living causes some professionals to be prejudiced? I've seen prejudice with other sorts of issues (culture, religion) - where they assume its "because of the kind of home the kid is in..." and refuse to look any farther?
buddy
New Member
cute, did we abbreviate eatpraytravel to ept? I love that... (all I could think of was, why are they listing a pregnancy test, I'm feeling a little slowing of the brain cells as I age) Or am I missing a term I should know about? anyway, that was a little off topic...
I think insaneCdn made a good point. Something to consider...it says nothing about you...it is about some of the folks in our society. It is interesting about the Canadian medication. system. I wondered about that.
I think insaneCdn made a good point. Something to consider...it says nothing about you...it is about some of the folks in our society. It is interesting about the Canadian medication. system. I wondered about that.
Buddy - from everything I read about the American system... I'm not sure I'd trade. Some things work better there, other things work better here. There is no "perfect system". Anywhere!
Oh - and yes, you'll find we abbreviate the handles all sorts of ways... I become Insane, or IC; Dammit Janet is Janet; hearts&roses is often H&R, stepto2 becomes step.. so... EPT. If she wants a different "nickname" for her nichname, she can just tell us - we don't mind at all!
Oh - and yes, you'll find we abbreviate the handles all sorts of ways... I become Insane, or IC; Dammit Janet is Janet; hearts&roses is often H&R, stepto2 becomes step.. so... EPT. If she wants a different "nickname" for her nichname, she can just tell us - we don't mind at all!
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