I had to say it...

[InsaneCdn]

But there are lies to maintain relationship, to weave together fissures, to maintain integrity despite breaks. A net can be a way to save as well as to leak. It is my decision which way to see it.

Yes.

 

[Jabberwockey]

This makes sense to me. Does my son lie to protect the idea he has of how I see him, or does he lie to protect his sense of himself as not a screw-up?

How simple.

I find it hard to see it this way. Right now our son has a NASTY cough caused in part by allergies. Night before last we had him take an allergy pill and use some nasal spray. It was a bit better yesterday. This morning he's hacking and coughing big time again. I comment that if he had taken the allergy pill last night like we'd told him it wouldn't be as bad. His response was that he did take the pill. My response, "You mean the on still in the bottle in the bathroom?". His response, "Oh, I must have forgotten to take that but I used the nasal spray when I got up". I had tossed the bottle to him in the bedroom the night before. HE took it into the bathroom. I have my doubts that he actually used the nasal spray either but the pill was the more important of the two anyway.

He lied to me about something that had no potential gain for him. He could have simply said that he fell asleep and when he woke figured it was too late for it to be helpful. Lies like this do NOTHING to protect the idea of how we see him OR his sense of self. Why bother?

 

[Copabanana]

Lies like this do NOTHING to protect the idea of how we see him OR his sense of self.

I see it differently, Jabber.

I comment that if he had taken the allergy pill last night like we'd told him it wouldn't be as bad. His response was that he did take the pill. My response, "You mean the on still in the bottle in the bathroom?". His response, "Oh, I must have forgotten to take that but I used the nasal spray when I got up".

He wants autonomy and he wants authority over his choices, himself, his life.

He does not want to be accountable to you or Lil, he wants to be accountable to himself and for himself. In the moment that you challenge him about the pills/spray he has to choose between accountability to himself or to you. He chooses himself, to preserve his sense of autonomy.

That would be developmentally correct because first he has to be a separate adult, to be able to be a morally correct adult. He chooses separate rather than moral *lying, at that moment. By asking him you have forced him to choose.

His being in your house has eased things up for him in some ways but make it harder in others. I know because we have my son here way more.

He lied to me about something that had no potential gain for him.

Do you see the gain? By lying to you, he checks you. And maintains himself as in control of the situation. I am not saying it is right. I am just suggesting that it might be functional.

 

[TheWalrus]

If that is the case, Copa, is that a developmental stage they are stuck in? I understand the need to separate as a developmental stage. But we all eventually come to realize that we are separate AND apart. That we are responsible not only to and for ourselves, but to and for others. My daughter lies in the same way - even when there is nothing to gain and it can be easily caught. She will deny even with proof in front of her, and get angry at being "questioned." Her bio dad is a nearly 50 year old man who still does this - will lie when a truth would fit better.

 

[Copabanana]

If that is the case, Copa, is that a developmental stage they are stuck in?

I think of it as a developmental challenge rather than developmental stage.

we all eventually come to realize that we are separate AND apart

I wonder if we all do.

It is not that our kids do not understand they are separate and apart. They know. But they have to achieve it. They both want to and do not want to be independent. That is the conflict.

And then it gets more complicated because there are noxious and difficult things to deal with in their own heads, and personalities. They use us in order to deal with those conflicts. How much easier and better does it feel for your daughter to feel that it is your feeling, your fault, your attribute--then something in and about her.

That we are responsible not only to and for ourselves, but to and for others.

Here you are talking about the end of the road, the pinnacle of adult achievement, maybe even moral development. I do not believe my own parents ever really achieved this understanding fully.

I believe my son grasps it in the abstract but not in the day to day living of it. My challenge is to stay in the game so that he can use our relationship to gain mastery. Just as it was when he was a toddler or child.

One could ask why it is my responsibility to stay in the game when he is 27 years old. I guess I am accepting of what you say--"we are responsible not only to and for ourselves, but to and for others." I had not really ever thought about this before.

I want to see this through for us. I want my son to continue developing. I want to be in his life. There for him. I am so grateful that our life is proceeding where I can be.

You may have read in other posts that I was able to buy a fixer upper property to fix up for my son to live. It was a wild impulse decision. I had no idea if it would work or how.

Well. The first positive to come of it was my son was so moved that I would do such a thing. He was visibly affected with gratitude. He was so happy there would be this buffer between him and the street. So happy that he could have permanence and security.

But he did not know how to sustain it. He did not know how to build it. To build a future. For himself or with us.

And then he fell apart. He resumed some of the behaviors that were noxious. We would have none of it. But know we had a carrot. We worked on the stick.

Well. We tightened up. And more and more, we kept tightening up. Gradually, we imposed more and more requirements, and tolerated less and less of his imposition of his rules. On us.

The more and more he conformed the more and more we allowed him close in to our lives. Somehow in a parallel way, he began, I think, thinking differently about himself. He beefed up. I mean that in substance. In the ability to curb his negativity with us, and more importantly in himself.

I do not know how and why this worked this way. Maybe I am dreaming it and in a few hours you will see a new thread proclaiming my despair.

He works with us every day now. He is still doing kid stuff, like weeding, and sweeping, and picking up rocks, papering over windows to spray paint the interior. You get the picture.

But M is talking about him graduating to more substantial work. Like painting.

When he first successfully completed a big job independently and M gave him praise, I hugged and hugged him. He beamed.

What we are seeking here is a changed way of them seeing themselves and the awareness, the conviction that we can see them positively. The bi-product is the relationship.

I do not know how I had the insight or courage to take the steps I have taken. Actually, I do not believe I had either one. M, my SO, did. He wanted and needed to act on behalf of my son. He is the one who believed that it was a process and that my son would change only in relationship to us. He was right.

It has been very hard on M. He is exasperated. And angry at my son. Our roles have changed somewhat. Now I am the one with hope.

 

[Jabberwockey]

He wants autonomy and he wants authority over his choices, himself, his life.

He does not want to be accountable to you or Lil, he wants to be accountable to himself and for himself.

While I understand this, he KNOWS that he will NEVER have this while living in our house. Same as I wouldn't have it living with my parents. To get autonomy he must get and maintain work so he can have his own place. He must acknowledge that everyone has rules for their home and even if you are only visiting for the afternoon you MUST give up some of your autonomy while there. I curse, but don't while at my mom and dads. While Lil and I were dating, we didn't spend the night at my parents because, even though we were in our 30's, because they don't approve of pre-marital sex. My sister in law wouldn't smoke in our house even when we allowed it.

As far as the pills go, whatever. That is his choice. If he wants to be miserable then so be it, just quit whining about it when we've given you an option that will at least help.

As far as autonomy goes, how much can you want something that you do almost nothing to gain.

Sorry if I'm sounding negative here but this whole situation is starting to wear thin. The deal was that he got to stay until the apartment was ready and it SHOULD have been ready over a week ago. He had a mini meltdown over a "friend" earlier. I used quotes on friend because he CONSTANTLY complains about this guy. This is J that lived with us briefly several years ago. When we ask why he would keep in touch with someone he apparently hates he responds with "He's the only one who will still talk to me. 'Better a bad friend than no friends." That is complete and utter bass ackwards crap but its what he believes.

 

[A dad]

So is the apartment ready and he did not moved or the ones who had to finish the apartment did not well finished it in time probably because they underestimate how long it takes to finish it.

 

[Tanya M]

There are lies to manipulate and to trick and to achieve advantage or gain based upon deception.

But there are lies to maintain relationship, to weave together fissures, to maintain integrity despite breaks

For me, regardless of why the lie was told it's still a lie. A lie equals deception and for me, there is no integrity in deception.
For someone to say they lied because they didn't want to hurt me or they were protecting me will fall on deaf ears. I do not need to be protected from the truth. I can deal with the truth. The truth is always open with straight edges where a lie has dark twisted corners where more lies tend to hide.

I think it's human nature that we tell our original lies when we are small children. Even as small children we know that "what we did" was wrong and somewhere in that small mind we convince our small self that if we "lie" there will be no consequence, it's as if it didn't happen. Of course in a child's mind I don't think they fully understand the concept of a "lie"

This is a turning point in how we grow and learn to process that our actions have consequences. This is where free will and choice come into play. We either tell the truth and own all that goes with it or we lie in an attempt to deflect from us what we have done wrong.

When my son was little we used a reward system and for quite a while it worked well. If my son did something wrong he would usually start with a lie and I would tell him if he wanted to be honest and tell the truth of what really happened he would get some cool stickers. This worked well and he would tell us the truth. Of course this didn't last. It became habitual. I truly believe when someone gets to this point they believe their own lies. It's almost as if by lying they are creating an alternate life, one where they are free from the consequence of their actions.

I do believe people can overcome this but it takes effort, lots of effort.

 

[DarkwingPsyduck]

Darkwing. Why do you lie? Do you know?

My son lies a lot, but less lately. When I asked him last time, he said he just didn't want to be such a "-up." He gets tired of seeing himself and having us see him as blowing it. He seems to be lying at least some of the time to preserve his self-esteem. Which, actually, makes sense to me.

I see Lil's son as lying to preserve his autonomy. Also a good thing, I think. But of course we would want our sons to feel autonomy and self-esteem without the need to lie. But it is not about us, is it?

Sorry, I am just now seeing this post. I don't lie frequently anymore. One of the best parts of rock bottom is that I no longer have worth lying about. When I do lie, it is always something unimportant, and I always realize that as soon as it comes out of my mouth, so I correct myself. This isn't common, but happens enough that I find it odd. Really, I cannot explain it. I am sure there is some deep, psychological answer, but I don't know it.

I got so used to lying... I do not exaggerate when I say that every single word, and every single action was dedicated strictly for drugs. To maintain. I was too clever for my own good. I planned my every move days in advance. I would tell a lie without expecting any instant result. It was all a part of one giant scheme. The seemingly pointless I was telling at the time only made sense when you looked at the bigger picture. With a bird's eye view, you could start to see all of the connections. I got so good at doing this, it became second nature. Lying is a habit.

 

[DarkwingPsyduck]

For me, the lying was one of the hardest things to take with my son. Especially when we did so much for him to try and help him get his life on a better track.
My son was/is a master at lying, he will look you straight in the eye and lie.

I agree. Even when I knew my son was lying and I would call him out on it, he would still lie!

I've always said about my son "if his lips are moving, he's lying"

Yes, when an addict's lips are moving, and vocal cords are vibrating, he is lying. It is more than just a figure of speech. It is an unfortunate fact.

 

[DarkwingPsyduck]

I see it differently, Jabber. He wants autonomy and he wants authority over his choices, himself, his life.

He does not want to be accountable to you or Lil, he wants to be accountable to himself and for himself. In the moment that you challenge him about the pills/spray he has to choose between accountability to himself or to you. He chooses himself, to preserve his sense of autonomy.

That would be developmentally correct because first he has to be a separate adult, to be able to be a morally correct adult. He chooses separate rather than moral *lying, at that moment. By asking him you have forced him to choose.

His being in your house has eased things up for him in some ways but make it harder in others. I know because we have my son here way more.
Do you see the gain? By lying to you, he checks you. And maintains himself as in control of the situation. I am not saying it is right. I am just suggesting that it might be functional.

As I explained in my last post, just because you can't comprehend how a certain lie will be beneficial, doesn't mean that there is nothing. It can be a long con, and I was a pro at it. The more innocent looking the lie, the less people will scrutinize it. I didn't just tell obvious lies that had no chance of success. Just series of more believable, smaller lies. That would eventually come together in the way I needed it to.

 

[A dad]

When my son was little we used a reward system and for quite a while it worked well. If my son did something wrong he would usually start with a lie and I would tell him if he wanted to be honest and tell the truth of what really happened he would get some cool stickers. This worked well and he would tell us the truth. Of course this didn't last. It became habitual. I truly believe when someone gets to this point they believe their own lies. It's almost as if by lying they are creating an alternate life, one where they are free from the consequence of their actions.

I do believe people can overcome this but it takes effort, lots of effort.

He never graduated to telling the truth because its the right thing?

 

[nlj]

Hi Lil

I still don't get why the boss phones you and tells you what's going on. Your son's a grown man and it's as if the boss is treating your son like a child. It seems totally inappropriate to me.

I can just imagine my employer phoning my mother and telling her that I'd left work etc etc. Eh?

Sorry, I know I'm not being helpful ... but I find this whole scenario really odd.

 

[Tanya M]

He never graduated to telling the truth because its the right thing?

No, he hasn't. While he's in the body of a 34 year old man, emotionally he's stuck at 19. He's highly intelligent but lacks common sense. He knows right from wrong yet he chooses wrong and then will lie to try and avoid the consequence.

The past few times that he was arrested he told the officer he was someone else. He knew that when they ran his finger prints that they would find out who he was and giving a false name adds one more charge against him.

It just boggles my mind

 

[Jabberwockey]

So is the apartment ready and he did not moved or the ones who had to finish the apartment did not well finished it in time probably because they underestimate how long it takes to finish it.

Still not ready yet.

 

[Lil]

He does not want to be accountable to you or Lil, he wants to be accountable to himself and for himself. In the moment that you challenge him about the pills/spray he has to choose between accountability to himself or to you. He chooses himself, to preserve his sense of autonomy.

Do you see the gain? By lying to you, he checks you. And maintains himself as in control of the situation.

No. I don't see the gain. I don't see the reason. I don't understand. The fact is, I don't think I ever will. I am a VERY honest person. I won't say I've never called in sick just because I needed a "mental health" day. Sure, I've said, "No, you don't need to lose weight, you're fine!" But very seldom. As a general rule, I do not lie and I HATE being lied to. He knows this. He's known it his entire life.

Her bio dad is a nearly 50 year old man who still does this - will lie when a truth would fit better.

If I hadn't been to my son's biodad's funeral, I'd ask if our kids had the same one. My ex would tell a lie when the truth would get him OUT of trouble. He didn't know how to do anything but lie.

So is the apartment ready and he did not moved or the ones who had to finish the apartment did not well finished it in time probably because they underestimate how long it takes to finish it.

It's not done. I checked last week and I'd say there's a week or two to go, minimum. They were supposed to finish the ground floor then seal that off from the rest of the building so tenants could move in to that floor, but that's not being done.

For me, regardless of why the lie was told it's still a lie. A lie equals deception and for me, there is no integrity in deception.

Absolutely.

I still don't get why the boss phones you and tells you what's going on. Your son's a grown man and it's as if the boss is treating your son like a child. It seems totally inappropriate to me.

I agree. And he's angry about it. (Though I'm glad because otherwise I expect I'd have been giving him "lunch money" and bus fare for God knows how long.) As I told him though; imagine an employee steps outside on break and never comes back, he doesn't show the next day, he doesn't return phone calls...maybe he got mugged in the parking lot and is in the hospital? Maybe he had a wreck on the way home? He didn't quit. He didn't say a word; he just left and never answered the phone or returned their calls. He just disappeared. I can see why they called.

I'm just tired of the BS altogether.

 

[Copabanana]

While I understand this, he KNOWS that he will NEVER have this while living in our house.

I think our kids are still in the have cake and eat it too stage. While they do get, our house, our rules in the abstract, I do not think it enters into their operating system.

The deal was that he got to stay until the apartment was ready and it SHOULD have been ready over a week ago.

M, my SO, first, had the idea that we buy a house for my son eventually to live in part--an apartment over garage. But he is the one who is dealing most with my son day to day. And he is fried. Tired of the lying. Tired of the mess. Tired of the laziness. The resistance.

M was the one with the concept--I resisted. Now our roles are switched. I am so hopeful. I am able to feel love for my son, and show it, without being afraid or being hurt, for the first time in years.

I do believe people can overcome this but it takes effort, lots of effort.

Tanya. There was another disaster about enrolling in a college course. (The first one was a year ago, when I insisted he enroll in order. Again I made the same mistake.)

He assured me that everything was going fine. Just hunky dory. Until, I insisted I look online. Nothing was fine. No assignments turned in. An 8 page paper due in a couple of days. And I looked at the first week's discussion (online) where he had introduced himself. It was a course something like French History.

The past few times that he was arrested he told the officer he was someone else.

So he introduced himself as French (untrue). As speaking French *true only in a limited way. As having just toured France (never.) How he remembered fondly the river xx, the smell of the newly cut fields, and the taste of a certain kind of French cheese that he ate in xx. All untrue.

I was livid. Just livid. I felt he was mocking the teacher, the students and me. (In my heart I was afraid because I felt--what kind of psychopathology leads a 27 year old to do such a thing?)

I asked him, Why?

He answered because he wanted to seem interesting to the teacher and the other students. (Does he not see that the truth of his life is infinitely more interesting than any invented profile?) Not only are we fascinated by Darkwing's story, we admire him immensely.

Does not my son understand this about himself? I guess not.

I can just imagine my employer phoning my mother and telling her that I'd left work etc etc. Eh?

I do not get it either.

M said something to me a few minutes ago. (My son comes here and eats all the butter, cubes and cubes that I keep for baking, the olive oil, and the eggs.)

M said--stop buying it. For a month.

I think where there are solutions that we can implement to avoid and manage conflict, we should do them. (Except I do not see how I can live without olive oil.)

I am loving being able to love my son. Even with the horrible parts, (tour of France, etc.) I am loving being near him. I am loving having hope. I am loving feeling my heart open up. I feel joy. Sometimes I do.

In my case I never believed I could or would risk believing that something good could happen between us. I could not believe in hope. I could not tell myself that maybe it was not the worst thing.

Yes, lies are bad. But how long can I hold onto that, without having to question myself and my motivations?

 

[Copabanana]

As a general rule, I do not lie and I HATE being lied to. He knows this. He's known it his entire life.

Lil and Jabber. Maybe the staying with you needs to be renegotiated and another plan identified.

All I am saying is that we and dig in and stay with certainties or we can look at things another way.

Your son is not a fool. He is doing what he does for a reason.

 

[A dad]

Still not ready yet.

Yeah construction workers tend to underestimate the time required to finish a project I know I worked in the field I say from experience if we say a date well you better not believe we are gonna accomplish it mostly because we make the deadline from only the first investigation. Then during work we see more and more problems and need more time and we are way pass the deadline we imposed on us.

 

[Lil]

Lil and Jabber. Maybe the staying with you needs to be renegotiated and another plan identified.

I've been thinking this, in part because the damn apartment still isn't ready (we had thought May 1st) and even if it was, his mooch friend has bailed on him and won't be his roommate and while J has been working, he not only doesn't intend to move in any time soon, but I think he's quit his job too now. At least, he didn't go today. Son doesn't have a full-time - or any job now - and isn't going to be able to pay a $400 month rent without it.

I don't know what to do. We'd said when that apartment was ready he was out, whether he could pay for it or not! THAT should be incentive enough to find a job so he can pay for it, shouldn't it? But he started this thinking there would be a roommate and there's not. I just really don't know what to do.

I wish we had the kind of relationship where we could let him live in the downstairs bedroom and family room and we'd live in the upstairs and we'd be comfortable like that. It won't happen. I wish we had an actual apartment in the basement where he could stay.

If wishes were horses, peasant's would ride.