I had to say it...
- Thread starter Lil
- Start date
Lil
Well-Known Member
I guess what I meant by all that was:
IF he had a full-time job and was doing what he was supposed to.
IF he was saving money and paying off his electric bill he owes.
IF he was being responsible - Then maybe we could consider letting him stay again, until he saves up enough money for rent and deposit somewhere else and gets himself together.
But, not finding work for a month; quitting the first job he has managed to get; lying to us about that, to the point of "calling work to see when his next shift was" for heaven's sake!
Letting him stay longer would just be...letting him get away with doing nothing. Enabling him.
Putting him out...when his roommate bailed? Just seems unfair somehow. Dammit.
IF he had a full-time job and was doing what he was supposed to.
IF he was saving money and paying off his electric bill he owes.
IF he was being responsible - Then maybe we could consider letting him stay again, until he saves up enough money for rent and deposit somewhere else and gets himself together.
But, not finding work for a month; quitting the first job he has managed to get; lying to us about that, to the point of "calling work to see when his next shift was" for heaven's sake!
Letting him stay longer would just be...letting him get away with doing nothing. Enabling him.
Putting him out...when his roommate bailed? Just seems unfair somehow. Dammit.
Copabanana
Well-Known Member
All of life has nothing to do with fair, in my experience.
It is not fair that he is not following through.
It is not fair that he is lying.
It is not fair he is not keeping his commitments.
I see nothing unfair about renegotiating the agreement. Already it has extended longer than anticipated. It is not good for him that he can slide along in your home. It is reinforcing that part of him that feels he can be lazy or sneaky. Like you are not noticing. Why is it that you have to eat it, that his life is not working out?
I think his being in the house makes it harder for everybody. At least it does in my own house.
RN0441
100% better than I was but not at 100% yet
Lil
It sounds like you are trapped and I know I felt like that before with my son. It's a desperate feeling.
But how can you be, it makes no sense!
What if you told him he had to pay you room and board by a certain date while he waits for the apartment to be ready, or else he has to move into a shelter. But you'd have to follow through. I just am trying to think what I would do if I was in that situation.
People have to work!!
My situation is different than yours because my son dabbled with pills (which was a disaster in itself but then he'd drink whiskey and steal from all of us) and when he was sober and did get a job after much hounding, he'd use the money for pills or weed or whatever an lose the job so we were in a vicious cycle.
It's like these kids aren't "hungry" enough to succeed.
It sounds like you are trapped and I know I felt like that before with my son. It's a desperate feeling.
But how can you be, it makes no sense!
What if you told him he had to pay you room and board by a certain date while he waits for the apartment to be ready, or else he has to move into a shelter. But you'd have to follow through. I just am trying to think what I would do if I was in that situation.
People have to work!!
My situation is different than yours because my son dabbled with pills (which was a disaster in itself but then he'd drink whiskey and steal from all of us) and when he was sober and did get a job after much hounding, he'd use the money for pills or weed or whatever an lose the job so we were in a vicious cycle.
It's like these kids aren't "hungry" enough to succeed.
Copabanana
Well-Known Member
Each of us brings to this our own individuality, and experience.
I have no compunction about being unfair to my son. Because I see myself as acting in the name of what is right. (Smile.)
I see this about power. And good. Not justice. I believe that our children know who we are. I believe they need us to stick up for everybody, so as to not let the bad guy win. The bad guy is that part of them that can be "shady." We are sticking up for that part of them, who allies with us.
We are fighting the good fight. Sometimes it means we have to fight in ways that do not seem "fair."
AppleCori
Well-Known Member
I think your son probably heard "I told you so" about the allergy medications and just instinctively said "No, you were wrong" even though you were probably right. Probably no more thought in it than that.
What happened to the old roommate, the one he didn't want to abandon? SO, that guy abandoned him?
What happened to the old roommate, the one he didn't want to abandon? SO, that guy abandoned him?
Jabberwockey
Well-Known Member
So, Copa, quoting yourself now?!?!
We told him that he had until the apartment was finished. I can't, in all good conscience, go against the word I already gave him. Its not his fault that the work is taking longer. Yes, its frustrating the hell out of me. But I wont become the liar. I told him something and even though other circumstances have changed, I will stick by my word. That having been said, I wont charge him room and board. First off, he would never realistically pay it. Secondly, I want him to have no reason to think he has anything but privileges here and if he "Pays Rent" he might get it into his head that he has a sayso about how this house is run. A can of worms that needs not be opened.
With a quickness.
We told him that he had until the apartment was finished. I can't, in all good conscience, go against the word I already gave him. Its not his fault that the work is taking longer. Yes, its frustrating the hell out of me. But I wont become the liar. I told him something and even though other circumstances have changed, I will stick by my word. That having been said, I wont charge him room and board. First off, he would never realistically pay it. Secondly, I want him to have no reason to think he has anything but privileges here and if he "Pays Rent" he might get it into his head that he has a sayso about how this house is run. A can of worms that needs not be opened.
With a quickness.
Copabanana
Well-Known Member
Makes sense to me. Although personally, I do not always take the high ground. I think the ground is constantly shifting. Earthquakes. Shifting sands. Quicksand. No time or room to take a last stand.
I am fearful of this too. I am afraid of my son learning about tenants rights, with the need to evict him. We have decided that he should be paying. There is lip service, but so far no money has changed hands. Hypocritical? Yes.
Yes!! Sometimes I see myself as posturing without telling the whole truth. When I see it, I poke holes in myself. Or if I think everybody will hate me, I (try) to clean it up. If I can.
Lil
Well-Known Member
Apparently he found a woman to mooch off of while waiting for the apartment to open up. He got a job - for 3 days - and quit. That's all he's done since we wouldn't let him move in here. Our son was going on about this girl and her, shall we say, "defects of character" and how he can't believe K would stay with her etc... It's actually quite simple. Now he has a free place to live and sex. Why would he give that up to get a job and pay rent?
He has a point. I don't like it. I just hate that things have changed thru no fault of his, other than placing his trust in the mooch.
But then again, we've been telling him a thousand times he needs a full-time job so he can afford the place on his own...then a roommate is a bonus, not a necessity.
I really hate how he has no friends. He complains all the time about what a butt-head (REALLY not his words) J is, but he's all he has.
That's just very sad.
DarkwingPsyduck
Active Member
Apparently he found a woman to mooch off of while waiting for the apartment to open up. He got a job - for 3 days - and quit. That's all he's done since we wouldn't let him move in here. Our son was going on about this girl and her, shall we say, "defects of character" and how he can't believe K would stay with her etc... It's actually quite simple. Now he has a free place to live and sex. Why would he give that up to get a job and pay rent?
I don't like it. I just hate that things have changed thru no fault of his, other than placing his trust in the mooch.
But then again, we've been telling him a thousand times he needs a full-time job so he can afford the place on his own...then a roommate is a bonus, not a necessity.
I really hate how he has no friends. He complains all the time about what a butt-head (REALLY not his words) J is, but he's all he has.
All results of his own choices. I don't have any friends either, do to my own choices. I have people I love dearly, and consider family, but I have no real relationship with those people. It was something that had to be done. I am lonely, but it isn't a decision I necessarily regret. I would be in much worse shape had I not made that decision. I don't expect to be lonely forever. But, in my case, it is currently of benefit. And it may be for your son, too. Sounds like he is very... Pliable. Easy to take advantage of. Like people exploit his innate kindness, and his desire to be a good friend. That never makes for healthy relationship dynamics.
Lil
Well-Known Member
I don't really know how to explain it, and I've never understood it, but he's gravitated toward people who were just users. It started in high school. He always used to have friends when he was younger. Not many, but there were kids he hung out with and had sleep overs with. But our high school is very clique-y and when he got there...well, he wasn't a jock, and he wasn't a nerd, and he wasn't a goth...he didn't seen to fit in with any of the groups. He said he ended up with the stoners because they were the only ones who were nice to him. Eventually, his friends from his younger years migrated away from him, mostly because they didn't like his new friends. He should have seen it for what it was. He had a car back then (before we took it back) and he could give people rides. When he'd get grounded from the car, no one went out of their way to be his friend. He had an allowance, so there was money. When the money was gone, so were the "friends". Then there was college. He just got stoned with buddy for a year. But his buddy - the same one that was supposed to be his roommate in the apartment - well if there's no money, no free rent, he's gone.
My son is actually a nice enough person. He can be very funny and personable when he wants to be...I've seen it. But he doesn't know how to make friends and seems to think that he must always be entertained. If he doesn't have someone to hang around with, he's miserable. He thinks he must never be "alone".
When I was young, I went to work, came home, did what needed done around the house, watched TV, read a book, went to bed, did the same the next day. On weekends, and even after work, I might stop for a drink with colleagues, or go to a club with a friend. I made friends at school and with co-workers. Don't people do that anymore? Isn't that how young people do things anymore?
Childofmine
one day at a time
Lil and Jabber, just getting back to the forum here and catching up with your thread. I used to drive myself nuts asking "Why?" Why does he lie, steal, do drugs, not work, on and on? I thought if I could understand why, I could somehow cut through the murky mire and reach him and shake him hard enough to shake some sense into him...or something. It was about me trying to fix it, me trying to understand it.
It doesn't matter why. What matters is behavior. We can't peel back the layers right now to get at the root cause of things.
He is going to do what he does...what works for him...until it doesn't work for him anymore.
That is where we come in. Can you go back to what you originally told him and stick to that? No matter what.
That is how he will learn. That is what he can count on. You told him already what the rules are. Once that day comes, the consequences come, whatever they are. He has had ample time. This is where it gets really, really hard for you. Not so much him. It's really hardest for you.
Hang in there. Try to keep it simple. It's so hard.
It doesn't matter why. What matters is behavior. We can't peel back the layers right now to get at the root cause of things.
He is going to do what he does...what works for him...until it doesn't work for him anymore.
That is where we come in. Can you go back to what you originally told him and stick to that? No matter what.
That is how he will learn. That is what he can count on. You told him already what the rules are. Once that day comes, the consequences come, whatever they are. He has had ample time. This is where it gets really, really hard for you. Not so much him. It's really hardest for you.
Hang in there. Try to keep it simple. It's so hard.
BusynMember
Well-Known Member
Lil, , that is how some young people make friends or that's how my kids did. School, post high school, work. If you're shy, the normal routes may not work. Princess was so shy...that is what drew her to drugs. Drug users are accepting plus drugs made her outgoing so she made tons of friends that way. Now that she has been sober for so long she really just calls her SO her best friend. She is still shy and also introverted and spends most of her days alone with her daughter until her SO gets home.
Simply put, it us easier for some to make friends than others. I think many of us who make it to this forum have adult kids who really don't know how to make friends.
Lil, I get your son and my daughter. Making friends has never come easy to me. I need people yet don't necessarily feel comfortable around most people. Maybe your son is the same?
Flaws aside..We all have them.. I like your son very much and feel more If a kinship with him then some others on the board. He wants friends but doesn't know where to find them or how to make friends. I get it
As always, I like all three of you and hope everything works out for you. I think your son will mature late, but be ok. He's not a druggie.He does have a temper. But he has a heart too.
Wishing you all the best.
Simply put, it us easier for some to make friends than others. I think many of us who make it to this forum have adult kids who really don't know how to make friends.
Lil, I get your son and my daughter. Making friends has never come easy to me. I need people yet don't necessarily feel comfortable around most people. Maybe your son is the same?
Flaws aside..We all have them.. I like your son very much and feel more If a kinship with him then some others on the board. He wants friends but doesn't know where to find them or how to make friends. I get it
As always, I like all three of you and hope everything works out for you. I think your son will mature late, but be ok. He's not a druggie.He does have a temper. But he has a heart too.
Wishing you all the best.
Copabanana
Well-Known Member
This makes sense to me.
Look at it this way. Life always happens. Something gets in the way. In real life, you cannot control all of the variables. That is why we make fallback plans and make sure we have money in the bank *six months reserves. So that when the unexpected happens we are ready.
It does not matter if the apartment is not ready or the roommate bailed. He is responsible for dealing with curve balls. He needs to have looked for alternatives. Not excuses.
Nature
Active Member
Childofmine is correct - we would all drive ourselves insane if we kept asking the same questions over and over as to "why?". The only contribution I have to this post is that I stopped comparing myself to my children at the same age. He might also be comparing himself to you both who in my eyes are both successful and he may be feeling some emotions over that as his life is probably not the way he planned it. Who knows what when through your son's head that he felt he had to lie - afraid of disappointing you both or afraid to face up to what he actually did? Immature brains have a tendency to blame others for their woes rather than look at themselves as that takes maturity. I feel for you both Lil and Jabber you have my support.
My son has social anxiety. He started to hang out with a hard drinking, partying crowd and then added drugs to the mix. He was very, very tight with these friends.
He's been telling the truth lately. He fessed up about his credit card debt and has been very open about his finances and showing his statements when we ask him to from time to time.
Maybe this is some kind of a developmental stage like Copa alluded to. Maybe the lying stops as they start to grow up.My kid has told plenty of lies, but has been completely open and honest lately. He is older than Lil' s son, by eight years it seems. And he seems to be growing up a bit.
My son doesn't have any friends anymore either.
He talks to a couple of the old friends once in a while. He might see them maybe once a year.
Sometimes he makes a friend where he is living now, and then they move out, and he doesn't follow up.
It really bother s me. I've posted about this before.
DarkwingPsyduck
Active Member
I don't really know how to explain it, and I've never understood it, but he's gravitated toward people who were just users. It started in high school. He always used to have friends when he was younger. Not many, but there were kids he hung out with and had sleep overs with. But our high school is very clique-y and when he got there...well, he wasn't a jock, and he wasn't a nerd, and he wasn't a goth...he didn't seen to fit in with any of the groups. He said he ended up with the stoners because they were the only ones who were nice to him. Eventually, his friends from his younger years migrated away from him, mostly because they didn't like his new friends. He should have seen it for what it was. He had a car back then (before we took it back) and he could give people rides. When he'd get grounded from the car, no one went out of their way to be his friend. He had an allowance, so there was money. When the money was gone, so were the "friends". Then there was college. He just got stoned with buddy for a year. But his buddy - the same one that was supposed to be his roommate in the apartment - well if there's no money, no free rent, he's gone.
My son is actually a nice enough person. He can be very funny and personable when he wants to be...I've seen it. But he doesn't know how to make friends and seems to think that he must always be entertained. If he doesn't have someone to hang around with, he's miserable. He thinks he must never be "alone".
When I was young, I went to work, came home, did what needed done around the house, watched TV, read a book, went to bed, did the same the next day. On weekends, and even after work, I might stop for a drink with colleagues, or go to a club with a friend. I made friends at school and with co-workers. Don't people do that anymore? Isn't that how young people do things anymore?
He sounds like an incredibly likable person. Likable to a fault, even. The high schools in Reno are very clique-y, too. I got along with just about everybody. Despite the way I dress, and my piercings and tattoos. I was never mean to anybody, regardless of who they hung out with. I was very easy going. I got into my fair of
with some other kids, but that was pretty rare. I was quite popular. Grades were always very high, too. I was always just naturally good in school. Never had to try too hard. Then, when my mother died, I had nowhere and nobody. I continued going to school for a few weeks, while crashing at my girlfriend's house, but I couldn't keep it up. So I bounced around from couch to couch, living off their parent's generosity. I grew incredibly close to them and their families, obviously. My group of friends are very tight knit. Not too large, but incredibly loyal. I'd have died for them. I was stabbed once for a friend. And they'd all have done the same for me. It hurts not to be able to see them. They don't take it personally. Plus, they respect and fear my aunt way too much to go out of their way to jeopardize my recovery. They are still doing their thing, but I will always be right here when they need it. It was VERY difficult for me to get used to this, though. I mean, I literally survived because I was around them all the time. It takes some getting used to, but it is the right thing to do at this point. The truth is, relationships between addicts are NEVER healthy. They are poison. They would never intentionally do anything that might be harmful to me, but that isn't enough. We feed off each other. We help each other justify all the wrong things we do. So it is a good thing for me. And I think it will be for your son. He cannot possibly be the good friend he tries so hard to be unless he works on himself. Even though his heart is in the right place, it doesn't help him. The very best thing my friends could do was to understand, and not make it even harder for me. And, being the excellent people they are, they did exactly that.
I misread your situation a bit, looks like. I thought your son was making more progress than this. Unfortunately, change doesn't necessarily mean improvement. So, while things may have changed since he was robbing you blind, the actual progress is much slower. It doesn't seem like he has any real intention of living well for himself. He is doing the absolute bare minimum to keep you and your husband where he wants you. He needs to try to improve his life for himself, not you. Anything else is superficial, and shaky. Like I've said, I made the decision to start my recovery for my aunt, because I didn't like myself enough to do it for me. It wasn't a very good start, but since then, I have come to appreciate the positive effects it has had on ME. I dislike myself less, too. I was hoping it would be the same for your son.
BusynMember
Well-Known Member
Honestly, Lil, we all love your kid. I so feel for his frustration with trouble making friends.
I do believe shyness and social anxiety is a huge reason certain teens use drugs, starting with pot. Kids who are a bit off the rails are always so much more accepting. Literally Princess went from a new kid nobody to a social star after drugs, in her circles, in a few months. It was sad when she told me what happened. I think she once, away from schools and cliques, accepts that she is never going to have tons of friends and she doesn't seem in angst over that anymore. Brain devrlopnent+she is 31.
Lil, your son has not turned to hard drugs so there is strength in him that I feel he just needs to grow into...with gentle shoves. My son Bart was a lot like your son, although circumstances were different and I don't want to dig it all up here since he is doing so well now. He was still living with his dad at your sons age and suffering mental health issues and working menial jobs.
Bart is 38 now and told me he decided that he would overcome his issues. He was probably mid 20s. He did it, found out he is a fantastic salesman, found a girl (never dated much), married, had a kid, was recruited to his job in Missouri. He makes six figures. No college but smart.
Lil,your son can do it. My son was a mess at his age. And, like your son, it had nothing to do with drugs.
That brain development up to 25 resonates here. So many of the board males seem to get it around 25.
I know you are frustrated now. I am sorry. I hope you Ll have a peaceful day.
I do believe shyness and social anxiety is a huge reason certain teens use drugs, starting with pot. Kids who are a bit off the rails are always so much more accepting. Literally Princess went from a new kid nobody to a social star after drugs, in her circles, in a few months. It was sad when she told me what happened. I think she once, away from schools and cliques, accepts that she is never going to have tons of friends and she doesn't seem in angst over that anymore. Brain devrlopnent+she is 31.
Lil, your son has not turned to hard drugs so there is strength in him that I feel he just needs to grow into...with gentle shoves. My son Bart was a lot like your son, although circumstances were different and I don't want to dig it all up here since he is doing so well now. He was still living with his dad at your sons age and suffering mental health issues and working menial jobs.
Bart is 38 now and told me he decided that he would overcome his issues. He was probably mid 20s. He did it, found out he is a fantastic salesman, found a girl (never dated much), married, had a kid, was recruited to his job in Missouri. He makes six figures. No college but smart.
Lil,your son can do it. My son was a mess at his age. And, like your son, it had nothing to do with drugs.
That brain development up to 25 resonates here. So many of the board males seem to get it around 25.
I know you are frustrated now. I am sorry. I hope you Ll have a peaceful day.
