I'm so torn and so sad

[Childofmine]

Hi Sooz and welcome to the forum. I'm so sorry for all you and your family are going through. It is so hard to live with a child who is off the rails.

I told myself and my son the year of 2016 will be different. When it happens I will tell and there will be consequences.

This is a good change. Here a few thoughts:

1. Keep it simple. Don't try to change everything at once. Change one or two things.

2. Go slow. Many of us, in our haste to "fix" things, swing from one extreme to the other.

3. Get very calm and clear with yourself. Then work with your husband so that you two are on the same page and work to stay on the same page. This is a huge change in and of itself and it will spill over into changes for your son.

4. Start spending time working on yourself. Good books are: Codependent No More by Melody Beattie and Boundaries by Cloud and Townsend for starters. Alanon is a wonderful free resource and there are likely many meetings in your area. The people there understand. Try going to six meetings before you decide if AlAnon is for you or not. It has literally saved my life. Start writing in a journal, and spending quiet time with yourself.

5. I know you are sad and scared and feel guilty. This is very normal. Reading and doing work on yourself will help you let go of the guilt. You did the best you could in raising your son. You are not required to be perfect. Once you knew better, you started doing better. That's all anybody can do.

6. Your son is making choices. Choices have natural consequences. Let the consequences be as natural as possible. That's sometimes hard to figure out. One might be: If you steal, you will be turned in, and you will have to deal with the legal system. That is a natural consequence.

Keep posting here. This forum is a wonderful tool and reading and writing on it every day can have a great result.

We're here for you. We understand this problem with our DCs in all of its complexity and pain. You will find enormous support here. Warm hugs tonight.

 

[Tanya M]

Therapist told me to tell him to take responsibility by deciding with us what consequences will be.

I'm sorry, but this just does not make sense to me. Your son is already showing that he is making poor choices so for your therapist to say he should have a say in what his consequences should be, I just do not see how that will help him learn. When someone breaks the law and goes before a judge for sentencing, the judge does not ask the person "what do you think would be a good consequence?"

There should be a clear consequence already in place if son does A, B, or C. If he is living in your house then it is up to you and your husband to set the rules.
If you allow your son to participate in what the consequences are this leaves room for negotiation and a d_c will take full advantage of this and manipulate the situation to their benefit.

Clear boundaries, house rules and consequences are the only way to let your son know where you stand, what you will and won't tolerate and when he does not follow them then it's up to you and your husband to follow through on the consequence.

 

[toughlovin]

HI I just want to say this is not your fault!! I think we all go to places where we blame ourselves or think we should have done things differently.... But really who knows what would have happened if we took another path. It sounds like you did a good job parenting and trying to protect your son from bad influences when young.... Believe me if you hadn't done that, eh would have found those influences and maybe gotten into worse trouble younger.

So yes now it is time to step back and let him face the consequences for his behavior. Now he is an adult.... And I do think it is really important for you and hubby to work together to figure this out. You mentioned you have not been on the same page but I am not clear how you differ.... So talk to each other and understand where each other is coming from .... And dyes be honest. Don't cover up for your son at this point.

Hang in there and keep posting.

 

[Copabanana]

I agree with Tanya about the consequences. The consequences to my way of thinking must be determined by your husband and yourself, and in advance and clearly told to your son, in response to the breaking of clearly stated and agreed upon rules.

The consequences that are decided upon should be ones that you will absolutely be able to deliver. If you fear you will be unable to follow through on the decided consequence, choose another one that you can adhere to. That is what I think.

I would not let son nor would I let the therapist decide upon consequences.

I would not let anybody but you and your husband decide on what you want, your rules, and what will happen if the rule is broken. You are the ones who decide if a rule has been broken. Nobody else. Your son must accept that.

That is the hardest part. My son is always negating responsibility, and denying something happened. When in front of my face I can see it. There is a whole lot of lying going on. I enforce the consequence anyway. This is not a court of law. It is my house. And my life. Not just his.

M is far more flexible than I am. It is not that he is softer, but he is more giving, because he is less defended. M is seeing that my son is changing, so he wants to respond with "give." I can see the value in that. But I get sick. Physically sick. I just want the end of the problem.

Until I get over my anger and realize once again "the problem" is my child who I love.

That said, at the beginning of this, until they get the message that you mean business, and until you gain confidence that you will follow through, strict interpretations make sense. Like you would do with a very young child. Because in a sense they are like very young children. That is the problem. Part of it.

These young people with minds that still seem to be rooted in behaviors younger than their chronological age, will only learn by consequences. The consequences must be firmly their own to bear. Not yours, not mine.

COPA

 

[Worriedsick]

I agree with Tanya about the consequences. The consequences to my way of thinking must be determined by your husband and yourself, and in advance and clearly told to your son, in response to the breaking of clearly stated and agreed upon rules.

The consequences that are decided upon should be ones that you will absolutely be able to deliver. If you fear you will be unable to follow through on the decided consequence, choose another one that you can adhere to. That is what I think.

I would not let son nor would I let the therapist decide upon consequences.

I would not let anybody but you and your husband decide on what you want, your rules, and what will happen if the rule is broken. You are the ones who decide if a rule has been broken. Nobody else. Your son must accept that.

That is the hardest part. My son is always negating responsibility, and denying something happened. When in front of my face I can see it. There is a whole lot of lying going on. I enforce the consequence anyway. This is not a court of law. It is my house. And my life. Not just his.

M is far more flexible than I am. It is not that he is softer, but he is more giving, because he is less defended. M is seeing that my son is changing, so he wants to respond with "give." I can see the value in that. But I get sick. Physically sick. I just want the end of the problem.

Until I get over my anger and realize once again "the problem" is my child who I love.

That said, at the beginning of this, until they get the message that you mean business, and until you gain confidence that you will follow through, strict interpretations make sense. Like you would do with a very young child. in a sense they are like very young children. That is the problem. Part of it.

These young people with minds that still seem to be rooted in behaviors younger than their chronological age, will only learn by consequences. The consequences must be firmly their own to bear. Not yours, not mine.

COPA

I agree with Tanya about the consequences. The consequences to my way of thinking must be determined by your husband and yourself, and in advance and clearly told to your son, in response to the breaking of clearly stated and agreed upon rules.

The consequences that are decided upon should be ones that you will absolutely be able to deliver. If you fear you will be unable to follow through on the decided consequence, choose another one that you can adhere to. That is what I think.

I would not let son nor would I let the therapist decide upon consequences.

I would not let anybody but you and your husband decide on what you want, your rules, and what will happen if the rule is broken. You are the ones who decide if a rule has been broken. Nobody else. Your son must accept that.

That is the hardest part. My son is always negating responsibility, and denying something happened. When in front of my face I can see it. There is a whole lot of lying going on. I enforce the consequence anyway. This is not a court of law. It is my house. And my life. Not just his.

M is far more flexible than I am. It is not that he is softer, but he is more giving, because he is less defended. M is seeing that my son is changing, so he wants to respond with "give." I can see the value in that. But I get sick. Physically sick. I just want the end of the problem.

Until I get over my anger and realize once again "the problem" is my child who I love.

That said, at the beginning of this, until they get the message that you mean business, and until you gain confidence that you will follow through, strict interpretations make sense. Like you would do with a very young child. Because in a sense they are like very young children. That is the problem. Part of it.

These young people with minds that still seem to be rooted in behaviors younger than their chronological age, will only learn by consequences. The consequences must be firmly their own to bear. Not yours, not mine.

COPA

I agree with Tanya about the consequences. The consequences to my way of thinking must be determined by your husband and yourself, and in advance and clearly told to your son, in response to the breaking of clearly stated and agreed upon rules.

The consequences that are decided upon should be ones that you will absolutely be able to deliver. If you fear you will be unable to follow through on the decided consequence, choose another one that you can adhere to. That is what I think.

I would not let son nor would I let the therapist decide upon consequences.

I would not let anybody but you and your husband decide on what you want, your rules, and what will happen if the rule is broken. You are the ones who decide if a rule has been broken. Nobody else. Your son must accept that.

That is the hardest part. My son is always negating responsibility, and denying something happened. When in front of my face I can see it. There is a whole lot of lying going on. I enforce the consequence anyway. This is not a court of law. It is my house. And my life. Not just his.

M is far more flexible than I am. It is not that he is softer, but he is more giving, because he is less defended. M is seeing that my son is changing, so he wants to respond with "give." I can see the value in that. But I get sick. Physically sick. I just want the end of the problem.

Until I get over my anger and realize once again "the problem" is my child who I love.

That said, at the beginning of this, until they get the message that you mean business, and until you gain confidence that you will follow through, strict interpretations make sense. Like you would do with a very young child. Because in a sense they are like very young children. That is the problem. Part of it.

These young people with minds that still seem to be rooted in behaviors younger than their chronological age, will only learn by consequences. The consequences must be firmly their own to bear. Not yours, not mine.

COPA

Like you would do with a very young child. Because in a sense they are like very young children. That is the problem.

Yes, I need to take small steps with my 18 year old. He feels entitled and Hasnt talked to me in 2 months.I know I've enabled him and made excuses for him all his life. He's been in a very depressed state for the past 3 months but has been getting out a bit with friends and enrolled in community college for a few classes last week. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that he sticks with it. He is not contributing to house chores. I have not enforced it yet. I feel that I've been through 3 months of emotional h@ll, and want to give myself a little break. I'm just so drained. I just started back to work last week ( after 3 months off) to begin to feel a little more "normal".

 

[Copabanana]

He's been in a very depressed state for the past 3 months but has been getting out a bit with friends and enrolled in community college

That is fantastic.

Be easy on yourself. Try not to judge yourself. It does not help, for one. And you do not deserve it. Take your time.

COPA

 

[Sooz]

As I lay here at 3 am reading all the advice and support I want to say thank you.
We told are son his consequences are whatever we say goes period. If rules aren't followed we will have to press charges. To think that we will have to do that sickens me to the core. I don't think if it comes to that I will be able to do it.
Anyway, I have been working on myself...I am not very strong right now and I'm trying to be.
Thank god I have my husbands and both our families support. I just hate to tell them again how he's stolen from us...it's a broken record.
Thank you again...I have a lot to think about and talk to my husband. I want to create solid rules and consequences. Maybe if they were written down and we all sign it like a contract it will help me to follow through better.
My husband keeps telling me he's not mad at me and he will take care of it this time. I love him son much for that. The crazy thing is I keep thinking how I did tell on him and why can't I protect my son and get him to just stop so no one else needs to know. Why can't I just f*ckin fix it! I have realized I can't and it is very hard for me to accept. I usually can figure things out and fix them. That's what I do. I'm a wife and a mother of two children. Right now I feel like I'm not such a great mother. Right now I wish I never was one. The work to raise a child then get kicked in the face is disheartening it hurts to the core. I'm going to try to put on my big girl pants and handle it all as usual but it honestly is breaking me down.
Thank you for letting me vent. Maybe I will just use this forumn as a journal....lol
Night all.

 

[New Leaf]

My son is saying mean stuff to me behind his dad's back. He called me a b*tch. He said I threw him under bus by telling. I told him I don't care anymore I warned him I was telling his dad in the year of 2016. My new years resolution was to stop covering up his actions. I told him I don't care if he loves me anymore I can't live like this and it's killing me. I told him he can hate me. I explained that it makes it easier to do what needs to be done. Of course he turned around and said he still loves me he just didn't understand why I told on him. He's a master manipulator. You all on this forum have given me strength to stand up and not take it anymore.

Your son sounds very smart. He knows what he wants and he knows how to manipulate people to get it.

He's smart enough to flip the switch to "I love you" when you told him about acting hateful.

He has a car, so he driving.

Sounds like he is pretty high functioning.

Most of us here will tell you that we have experienced being manipulated by our d cs. It is hard to see it when it is happening, because we are stuck in all the drama of it. If we step back a bit, and create a mental timeline, we can see a pattern of the kids behaviors, and also a pattern of our responses to them.

It is good that you are here posting, because it is like journaling. The great benefit is that we are sharing our experiences with this forum, and receiving advice and concern from others who are on similar journeys, all at different places on the path.

There is no right or wrong way, we are not experts or therapists, just moms and dads, who have pretty much been there, done that, and understand the frustration and pain of it. Keep posting here, it really helps. It has helped me learn a lot about my two d cs and myself.

What I have learned here on CD is about our adult children having accountability, even if they have issues with disorders.

My two have slid down the slippery slope of addiction. It has been a hard ride for all of us. They do not think, or act with clear heads, that is not an excuse, it is true, but they are still responsible for their choices.

The crazy thing is I keep thinking how I did tell on him and why can't I protect my son and get him to just stop so no one else needs to know. Why can't I just f*ckin fix it! I have realized I can't and it is very hard for me to accept. I usually can figure things out and fix them.

Please do not throw this back on yourself. By doing this, you are buying into your sons rhetoric. What you did, was correct, you shared with your husband that his adult son has stolen from you both. You shared the truth. You are supposed to, he is your husband, the father of your son. It is not "telling' on him.

Your son has made you the "keeper of his secrets." He has made you "the fixer."

In this, he has ensured that he can continue doing what he does, and you will take the responsibility to "fix" it.

What is happening is called triangulating.
It is a process in which our d cs single out one parent as their "go to." This is usually the parent who is easier to manipulate and will "cover" for them. It is hard to break this habit. I am glad that you are seeing that you can't fix this. The more you buy into trying to be the heroe and "fix" this, the more he will continue to see you as his friend and his father as his foe.
He will use this again and again.
It becomes a game.
It is a game no one wins, and the biggest loser will be your son.

The responsibility needs to be on your son and his actions, his bad choices and the consequences. You were taking on the job to manage his accountability. "Protecting" him from his father, who may be a bit more heavy handed with the consequences.
It is nothing new to most of us.
It is a "good guy" "bad guy" thing.
I am glad your husband is not mad at you and understands how you have taken on this role. He says he will "handle it" but it really is a shared responsibility. Your son needs to know that mom and dad stand together.
If you and you husband can sit down and get on the same page, agree on consequences, your family will benefit tremendously.

Your son will most likely be upset with this. It will be uncomfortable for him, because he is used to the old way. It may be uncomfortable for you, too, because you are used to the old way, too.

Change does not come easy. It takes practice and consistency. It takes time. It takes help, too. There are groups out there for face to face support. There are videos on YouTube, books and articles. One I am reading is "Setting Boundaries with our Adult Children".

Take the time you need and be very, very kind to yourself. It is hard enough already to go through this. We did the best jobs we could, and when our d cs go down paths we never imagined for them, it is heartbreaking and mind boggling.

Our thoughts usually turn inward and we start to blame ourselves. Don't go there! It is not your fault.

Do something good and relaxing for you. If you can take some time to just breathe and be by yourself, it will help you. "Me" time is important. You have value and worth. Most of us moms, have given so much of ourselves, we kind of get lost in the shuffle of daily chores, jobs, kids. It is important to take time to build yourself up.

You are here now, and it is a good place to be. Keep posting and take care dear, most of all, know that you are not alone.

(((HUGS)))
leafy

 

[Sooz]

Update:
My husband and I are going to work on rules and consequences if not followed.
I don't know if I can put a consequence as jail because I don't know if I am able to follow through with it.
We are going to give him deadline
to get a job...
get room cleaned up...
Return items/ gather them to either resell or send back.
It's a start.....
Just trying....
~Sooz

 

[New Leaf]

Update:
My husband and I are going to work on rules and consequences if not followed.
I don't know if I can put a consequence as jail because I don't know if I am able to follow through with it.
We are going to give him deadline
to get a job...
get room cleaned up...
Return items/ gather them to either resell or send back.
It's a start.....
Just trying....

Good for you, it is a great start. You do what you feel is the best for your son and your family. Small steps are best, with consequences you will stand firm on and reinforce. That sends a clear message to your son. The goal is to help him make changes and abide by rules of your home.
Sometimes getting tougher and setting limits and boundaries will cause a backlash from our d cs. Just be ready for it, if it does happen.

Lock up all valuables, and all knives. Change account numbers / card numbers if you have to - he might have them written down somewhere. If mail comes to your house, switch to a PO box, so he can't steal the mail and use the account statements to get the credit card and bank account numbers.

This is really good advice. Our d cs can be pretty clever. We have to be one step ahead of them.

With that in mind, as you begin this journey to have your son follow rules and learn from his mistakes with consequences, it is a good idea to rebuild and restrengthen yourself. It is exhausting going through the stress of all of this. Take time for you.

We love our kids so much. We can become so emotionally tangled up in their lives and choices. The article on loving detachment is geared to help us see ourselves as separate individuals. It helps me to read it often, so that I am not dragged down with the choices my d cs make. It is hard to chart a steady course, with a brain that has been fried by dealing with these kids. It is true, darn kids fry our brains, turn us inside out, and yank our heartstrings. How is anyone supposed to be rational, after all of that? So, Sooz, if you haven't already, read this article
http://www.conductdisorders.com/community/threads/article-on-detachment.53639/
It doesn't mean we do not love our kids, it means we can start to untangle ourselves from the web they have woven with the choices they make. Sometimes gosh darn it, it seems like we are more affected than they are, and that is not good.

You are doing great......already making changes, talking it over and making a plan with your husband. AWESOME.
I hope your son will see that you are both united and make some changes of his own.
Fingers and toes crossed.
Take care, and be kind to yourself.
Keep posting and let us know how you are doing. We really care.
(((HUGS)))
leafy

 

[Tanya M]

This is great Sooz!!

It's a starting point.

I don't know if I can put a consequence as jail because I don't know if I am able to follow through with it.

You can only do what you can live with. I never thought I would be able to call the police on my son but when I found pot in his room I knew what I had to do. The officer that arrested him told me it was good that I called. He said that if something would have happened to where the police would have been called to my home and they found the pot, I would be the one going to jail.
I enabled my son in many ways but I will not go to jail for him.

Sooz, you will find as you go along that you are much stronger than you think you are and until then, draw on the strength of us here on this site. We are warrior parents who have survived the chaos our Difficult Child have brought into our lives.

 

[Sooz]

Thank you...
We have told him as of now if we say it he just has to do it...no questions asked...just do it.
He is doing everything we have told him.
Except clean his room.....
That will be put on the rule board for both kids rooms must be clean.

Thank you for all the support advice and just everything. ...it helps so much.
Sooz

 

[A dad]

Thank you...
We have told him as of now if we say it he just has to do it...no questions asked...just do it.
He is doing everything we have told him.
Except clean his room.....
That will be put on the rule board for both kids rooms must be clean.

Thank you for all the support advice and just everything. ...it helps so much.
Sooz

Oh clean the room issue if there was ever a losing battle its that. I never managed no matter the punishment to convince them to keep their room clean I just gave up as long as the rest of the house is clean I did no longer cared. I once became so mad that they did not clean their room that I took the door yeah it was stupid of me because it works only for people who know what shame is they did not it backfired so bad. I forgot how disgusting boys are.
Why did I say this is because I could not defeat them on all fronts I had to chose what I thought was more important for them in the future.
My advice start with the most serious problems he has or else you will get exhausted.

 

[InsaneCdn]

Except clean his room.....
That will be put on the rule board for both kids rooms must be clean.

Define "clean".
I don't have a problem with expecting "basic sanitation" clean - everything dusted and vacuumed once a month, clean clothes separate from dirty clothes, and no food or dishes laying around.
But clean as in neat and tidy? Don't even make it an issue.

 

[Sooz]

Update:
I haven't been on here for awhile. I have been trying desperately to work on me. My sons birthday was on the 2nd. He had another hicup and purchased another item from our account. After extensive research he did the transaction prior to my husband and I finally making consequences for him and just being on same page. Due to him conveniently not making us aware of all that he did when he had a chance his consequences were pretty steep. My husband told him for his birthday he would get him tires for his car. He lost that immediately! All he got for his birthday was from relatives and I baked him a cake.
I have become a much stronger person and matter a fact with him. I think he knows I have changed these last few weeks.

In response to rules on keeping room clean:

I'm just asking for drawers to be shut on dresser, clothes to be put away and last but not least any plates, cups or food to be taken out. He shoves trash on side of bed. It is disgusting and unsanitary.
I told him today room to be cleaned by midnight. If it's not done I take his phone at midnight.
I expect my kids to keep a tidy room. I feel it is a sign of respect to us and to the items we work so hard for them to have.

Thank you for reading
Sooz

 

[Childofmine]

Sooz, so glad to hear an update from you. It sounds like you are doing much better---you sound certain and firm in your tone. That is a great place for us to operate from as parents.

I like what you told him. No clean room. No phone. Consequences of his own choices. I know the "clean room" battle is one we all fight and I also understand that sometimes the room does need to be cleaned. Sounds like you have a good plan.

Hang in there. Take it one day at a time. Go slow. You are making really good progress since you first started posting. We're here for you, regardless.

 

[Tanya M]

Good to hear from you Sooz. You sound strong. Isn't it a wonderful feeling to take power back.

Stay steady the course you are on.

Remember, we are here for you when you hit bumps in the road.

Thanks for the update.

 

[Copabanana]

Sooz, you sound so strong!

Oh clean the room issue if there was ever a losing battle its that.

I am with you, Adad, but I can see Sooz's point, too. They are so disgusting.

Why did I say this is because I could not defeat them on all fronts I had to chose what I thought was more important for them in the future.

I agree. The risk is that you get worn out by fighting on two many fronts.

My advice start with the most serious problems he has or else you will get exhausted.

Well put.

But the other way to look at is, is like Sooz does: She is majorly grossed out by filth. This undermines her sanity. This is her bottom line.

I'm just asking for drawers to be shut on dresser, clothes to be put away and last but not least any plates, cups or food to be taken out. He shoves trash on side of bed. It is disgusting and unsanitary.

Oh how I know.

Good job, Sooz. Thank you for checking in.

We are here.

COPA

 

[Sooz]

Another update
I won!!!!
Consequences work
I went in his room tonight and said firmly
" here's the thing you live in my home. I need this room cleaned by midnight. If your room is not clean by midnight you will lose your phone privileges."
I told him I was serious. If he wants to test me he can.

He cleaned his room

I ask him after he did what the difference was because I had been asking for weeks for him to clean it. He said there was a consequence if I didn't. I did not want to lose my phone.

Whooohoooo
I feel like a champion.
Thank you for all support,
Sooz

Ps I know this is a small victory...but I will take it. Maybe he knows I'm serious.

 

[Copabanana]

You are my Queen for the Day (an old TV show, don't ask.) As such you get a Tiara and two dozen roses.

" here's the thing you live in my home. I need this room cleaned by midnight. If your room is not clean by midnight you will lose your phone privileges."

Do you do coaching? I need serious help. Even the dogs laugh at me when I act tough.

He cleaned his room

Good job!!

Whooohoooo
I feel like a champion.

You are. But don't get cocky, please. We want you to pace yourself, for the long haul.

Maybe he knows I'm serious.

For tonight. Tomorrow is another day and another battle, from my experience.

The important thing is you know now you can do it. Not only that it can be done. You, personally, have the authority and personal power to identify boundaries and hold to them, and most importantly communicate your absolute intent.

Good, good job.

COPA