In a totally new place and need perspective? Cedar? Anyone?

[BusynMember]

Who is the least intelligent candidate?

That's who will probably be voted as President.

Copa...Biden doesn't have a chance. Even some Democrats I know don't like him. Not saying he's a bad man or anything, but his reputation as a big mouth has him in trouble.

To be fair, for the first time since the Bush steals the White House election, I haven't followed this one. I did not even vote in the election after the Bush/Gore joke. But when Obama ran, I got interested again and now, with the tea party actually credible, only in the U.S., of course, I can't bear to hear the next crazy idea that may actually become law if somebody of that ilk gets in. Not to mention the Tea Party "NO" congress. So maybe I don't know what I'm talking about regarding Biden, but I sure know a lot of Democrats who don't like him.

I have no idea what's up with Hillary these days as I haven't spent one day following the campaign. I know I agree with her ideas on almost all of her domestic politices and, with the country in such bad shape, I care a lot more about domestic policy than foreign.

I *will* vote straight Democrat just because the Tea Party scares me. I mean, Sarah Palin...VP???? Really????

No wonder the world laughs at us and calls us not too smart...

Of course, JMO...

 

[BusynMember]

I am thinking about the exchange with Modesta in this way. I just got in the way of whatever family drama she is playing out in her life.

You're fine, Copa. You're making too much of this. It happens. You are not the first one. Nobody made a big deal out of it. From what I was told, those revised rules were going to be posted anyway. I am just trying to figure out how to give feedback within the rule's boundaries. I will do it when I'm sure I can.

 

[BusynMember]

The question I have is this: I am prepared now with my son...How could I have been prepared to see it with her?

I'll tell you what I've learned to do at least most of the time, and it has helped me especially with my FOO, but with surprises too and with comments from work that I could take to be positive or not so positive. So far I'd call it 90% successful.

Say I am surprised by an e-mail. I read it. I don't react right away or I'll be reacting through my emotional flashbacks and hear my mother's voice in the letter and take it to be far more critical than it really is. I remind myself that this has nothing to do with me or the person, but it is a reaction to something that happens on th e board. I don't always agree with decisions that are made, but I try to follow the rules because it's not my board. Just like I hope people don't smoke in my house, even though they may think it's very unfair t hat to light up a cigarette they have to go outdoors.

When I make things impersonal, it works better.

Trust me, I've even done this lately with FOO. They say what they do because of t heir own issues and nobody has spoken to me for so long that, if they say something about me, I am in their head(s) because of them and an inability to control their thinking, not because of me.

When you take the *me* out of interactions and realize most are not really about us at all, it is easier. I can't say this works for me every time. There will be triggers and reactions, but so much less often. I even forgive myself quickly when I have a triggered reaction and move on fast to "big deal." Forgive yourself for your reaction and remember that the people in charge here probably have to answer lots of petty complaints, and it's not an easy job. And I wouldn't want to do it. I think most of the posters like your advice. Nobody will like us all the time, but we do our best.

Cheer up.

Hugs )

 

[Copabanana]

When you take the *me* out of interactions and realize most are not really about us at all, it is easier.

Thank you, Serenity.

So, what do you do with the feelings that come up. The hit you in the gut feelings...that you are bad...or small...how do you talk those down?

Thank you.

COPA

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

The question I have is this: I am prepared now with my son...How could I have been prepared to see it with her?

When, as happened in your case, a private communication is forwarded without your knowledge or permission, that is a forgivable breach of trust. That the material was forwarded without care taken to protect your identity is a second, also forgivable, breach of trust. That you were then censured, out of the blue, by someone whose words carry a certain measure of authority ~ especially given that you had no clue the communication you sent privately had been forwarded in the first place ~ that blows the whole thing out of the water and feels like a betrayal of trust.

So...how does one recover her sense of equilibrium.

I don't know, either.

Over time, the discomfort of having been censured by a third party over a communication sent privately and then, forwarded without your knowledge or permission, will fade. The moderator's decision to ignore your request for further clarification...in that your request for clarification from the moderator was not addressed, you were essentially dismissed.

Like you don't matter.

Ouch.

So, just when you think a situation could not possibly become more confused, it does. You are left without recourse. You have no voice; you have no option but to accept whatever comes next...but, as is the case for all of our children, here on the site, your child too is troubled. The strength and support each of us finds here is one of the few reliable sources of understanding and information we have. So it isn't like you can just say, "Oh, whatever. I will find another source of support."

I'm sorry, Copa.

This should never have happened.

Cedar

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

So, what do you do with the feelings that come up. The hit you in the gut feelings...that you are bad...or small...how do you talk those down?

I think there is no way to do that. Something nasty did happen.

It helps me, when I feel that smallness, to repeat that prayer I just found.

Pray for their peace and therein, find our own.

It does help me to do that, Copa. I can let go of it, of the hurt and confusion of it, when I remember to say that prayer.

It's like, we get it that we have been hurt. We get it, that what happened was unfair ~ we really do get it, down in the heart of us, that it should never have happened ~ not to us, and not to anyone. We admit it feels just awful to know that is what happened to us. That the other guy really did mean to do what he did. That there is no fixing any of it.

Saying that little prayer about their peace seems to refocus me, seems to bring me back to center, maybe.

It's sad that happened to you, Copa.

I'm so sorry.

Cedar

 

[Copabanana]

in that your request for clarification from the moderator was not addressed, you were essentially dismissed.

Like you don't matter.

I think that I do matter to that person. There is something that I have that she wants.

But at the end of the day, I am still me and she is still her. However much she might want to diminish me, she cannot. *I want to tell her that I am very pretty, too.

I am not easily dismissed or diminished. Even though I helped her along by dismissing myself I can decide differently at any moment I choose. Her authority over me is in her mind, only.

She must take the same power over position with others that she sought to do over me.

Some people operate in dark alleys. By surprise. Anybody can be assaulted in the dark.

It is helpful for me to think of at as such. Of course that kind of attack would hurt anybody. And it is a visceral and automatic response to defend oneself by running away or even to fight back.

These people operate anonymously. With masks on. There is not real power or authority there.

So, now I feel better. I forgive myself. I was mugged in an alley. I felt momentarily hurt. I reacted defensively. It was not personal. I could have been anybody who had something this person envied, or feared.

We admit it feels just awful to know that is what happened to us. That the other guy really did mean to do what he did. That there is no fixing any of it.

I was a victim of a small and minor crime. Nothing more. She took nothing of value from me. Unless I give it to her. I will not.

I forgive myself.

I now see that I am not at fault because I reacted. I am not at fault for momentarily feeling powerless and afraid. That would be the very human response of anybody to being mugged.

Actually I was set up by somebody else. Who unknowingly participated as a conduit for victimization by a small time bully. It was the surprise of it.

I forgive myself for all of it.

In my heart, I wish it would happen again and again so I can practice. Now that I think about it, I think I need to decide to keep posting and posting. That would be the powerful thing to do. Unafraid.

I will no longer except with you and Serenity, read private messages. The only thing to do is to do everything in the light of day. Out in the open. And trust the community.

Thank you, Serenity and Cedar.

COPA

 

[BusynMember]

So, what do you do with the feelings that come up. The hit you in the gut feelings...that you are bad...or small...how do you talk those down?

"This isn't personal. I won't respond until I read it over and can respond calmly. Maybe I'll get input from SO."

When I used to shoot off letters before calming down, they weren't pretty. I beelined one right off to my brother after tossing out his letter that he sent me. And I hadn't even read it, but I was angry that he had the gall to send me ANY letter about what bothered me. I'm sure my anger made the letter incoherant. I was literally shaking with anger. I should have waited two days to respond. I may have decided to just write "Your letter was not read. I did not feel safe reading it and will read none in the future." That would have been so much better.

I am learning not to respond when upset. There is no rush.

 

[BusynMember]

Well, sending your personal info to every mod is unforgivable, really.

 

[Copabanana]

Since I am mostly out of bed now, I am catching up on work. Today I am sorting papers. A couple of letters and cards showed up from when my mother was first here with me, before my sister stopped contact.

In a letter she tells my mother how bad my mother must feel that she is in my city (i.e. in a place so dull and without redeeming qualities). In another note, she reviews travel plans she made for my mother for the upcoming Christmas, including a flight itinerary, and the mention that there will be an attendant to meet her at the plane.

While I remember I did feel slightly bad when she knocked my town, I did not pay attention to my exclusion from any Christmas plans. She does not even mention the possibility that I might want to visit. I am used to her rudeness.

What surprises me is that until now, I did not even pay attention to being excluded. I think I was so accustomed to exclusion and not being considered it was normal to me. It does not feel normal now.

Thank you Cedar and Serenity,

COPA

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

What surprises me is that until now, I did not even pay attention to being excluded. I think I was so accustomed to exclusion and not being considered it was normal to me. It does not feel normal now.

I feel this as well, Copa and Serenity.

Exclusionary policies, toxic labeling; unpleasant behaviors surprisingly beyond the furthest pale of decency and everything excused with: "That's just my mom; that's just my sister.

Crying at the drop of a pin but watching me while her eyes fill with tears.

There is a rising awareness now of my discomfort in interacting with either my mom or my sister. Was it a sense of guilt at the discomfort of interacting with them that we reacted from? Why was I (and maybe, I still am) so afraid of them, so afraid of what they would say?

Once we unravel that, we will be free of the sisters.

That will be very nice.

I wonder how it was that everything turned out this way.

***

D H will be happy to know you are still out of bed, Copa.

:O)

Cedar

 

[Copabanana]

my mom and my sister. If they know; if they knew, all along what they were doing and why, if they do what they do on purpose...that would be evil.

I think it is complicated.

With my mother, she took the inheritance on purpose. She knew what she was doing and why. She said my grandfather had changed his mind. Perhaps he had, perhaps not. Either way, she believed she deserved it. She believed she would be the better custodian. She believed she had overarching authority to determine what was right, and who was deserving. And it was always her. And then my sister, it seems. So, the question of knowing what is right and wrong, is one of perspective.

Of course, had she put it to herself, I am robbing money that is not legally mine from my daughters, she would have had to confront the evil in that. But she did not ever look at it like that.

My sister is similar. She is very invested in seeing herself as strong, authoritative, decisive and in control. As powerful. Today, as I go through papers once again I live through her rejection and abandonment of my mother as she died. (Remember, our situation was different than that of you, Serenity, and you, Cedar. My sister had lived close to my mother and had a relationship with her for almost 40 years. She only cut my mother off after the hospital visit, as my mother died.)

While I feel what my sister did was evil, I believe she sees it is taking a strong stance to protect herself. It is true that she was working a demanding job and I am sure she felt she did not have any extra to give. She would believe that caring for herself is the primary responsibility. She would see it as a strength to have protected herself, first and foremost, without deviation.

So, again, it is a matter of perspective. Relative to one's perspective.

But the thing is, I believe in absolute evil. I believe that there are things that no matter how you choose to look at them, are wrong.

I guess each of us has the right to decide for us what those evil things are. But that does not make sense. Because if evil is absolute, would not everybody capable of knowing right from wrong, share the same beliefs? (I need to take an Ethics class.)

When you think about each of our experience in our families, it sure is understandable why we chose and choose fog or dissonance, over looking head on at the situations we found ourselves in.

Thank you Serenity and Cedar.

 

[Copabanana]

Cedar, I thought you may have gone on the exploratory trip with D H. I guess you did not. Is your visit over? How did it go?

I have been looking for you, Serenity, for the last 24 hours. You must be working. I hope you check in soon.

Yes. I am still out of bed, and working in the house.

Thank you.

COPA

 

[Copabanana]

I want to share something I wrote long ago about the feelings that come up for me when I am in emotional flashback. I did not know the word then, but I want to know if these thoughts come up for you.


I am not safe.
I can't do it.
Something bad will happen.
I will be flooded with fear or another bad emotion if xxx happens.
I will lose control of myself and do something that will cause danger or shame.
Something bad will happen to xxx who will become hurt, sick or injured.
I will be in a situation that is too much for me, without a way out, no one to help me, and all alone.
I will freeze and lose control of something that is vitally important to my safety or that of others.


What is remarkable to me is how child-centric these thoughts seem. A child when faced with trauma, or something beyond their capacity to endure would have these thoughts, I think. An adult, not so much.

I am also struck that this is what I feel like when I get scared driving. Strangely, this insight gives me some hope that I can overcome my fear (except for M's contribution.) He is such a back seat driver (although he is way better than he was...and so lacks confidence in me as a driver...I do not see how I can gain confidence unless I insist he wear a bag over his head.)

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

hile I feel what my sister did was evil, I believe she sees it is taking a strong stance to protect herself. It is true that she was working a demanding job and I am sure she felt she did not any extra to give. She would believe that caring for herself is the primary responsibility. She would see it as a strength to have protected herself, first and foremost, without deviation.

I believe our sisters feel intense animosity toward us because our involvement, at any level, awakens feelings of inadequacy in the eyes of the mother and keys abandonment issues by the mother.

That is why physical possession of the mother to the exclusion of the other sibs matters so much to them.

That is what this looks like to me, this afternoon.

In my FOO, the brothers, not only poorly but toxically mothered, are not able to stand and claim what they want and need from the mother. For my brother to have stood up to my mother on the way his grands were being treated was extraordinarily out of character for him. (That is when she gave the tire-rimming machine away on condition that the person take it that day.) From you Copa, or from me or Serenity (though her mom seems to have cherished her son) there has always been rebellion. We have always seen what was not right ~ and rebelled against it, often to the point of providing for our sibs what our mothers were not providing.

Given the change in my sister's behavior since my father's death Copa, I wonder whether your sister's patterns were similar to what my sister is doing, now.

One of the incidents you have posted about was your sister's rage at having been thwarted in the mother's nursing home placement.

Could it be that, in believing you excluded forever, your sister felt not only securely validated in her relationship to the mother, but chosen over you? Could it be that, when you returned, your sister experienced intense rage having to do with the mother's seeming desertion/abandonment of her? Could it be that the sisters feel that any claim on the mother's attention or affection threatens the sister's chosen child / favored child status, reawakening abandonment fears?

This dynamic could explain my sister's intense hatred of the man who wanted to marry my mom, too.

That explanation would explain what I have seen in my FOO since my father's death.

One of the things that is so disconcerting to me is that my sister seems to need to celebrate a kind of exclusivity, a kind of ownership of, the parents. Remember my posting about my sister's elation as she performed pirouettes around the kitchen in her joy at having her parents visiting her home. Remember my sister's intense dislike of the Greek orthodox priest. Just as there is so little that makes sense about our sisters' behaviors toward each of us, if we draw back a little to see other patterns in the sister's interaction with the mother, what we see is that what the sisters celebrate is chosen child status.

That is the threat we represent to them.

And they do hold deep animosity toward us.

And, one more time, it was never about us. It is about the patterns the grandiosity-addicted mother set up in her family.

I think we cannot fix this, either.

Cedar

 

[Copabanana]

our involvement, at any level, awakens feelings of inadequacy in the eyes of the mother and keys abandonment issues by the mother.

Yes. And rage at us.

From you Copa, or from me or Serenity (though her mom seems to have cherished her son) there has always been rebellion. We have always seen what was not right ~ and rebelled against it, often to the point of providing for our sibs what our mothers were not providing.

Yes.

One of the incidents you have posted about was your sister's rage at having been thwarted in the mother's nursing home placement.

Yes.

Could it be that, in believing you excluded forever, your sister felt not only securely validated in her relationship to the mother, but chosen over you? Could it be that, when you returned, your sister experienced intense rage having to do with the mother's seeming desertion/abandonment of her?

I agree, except that her rage was at my involvement and threatening to upset her power...up until that point my mother had not acted...all it took for my sister to become discombobulated was to hear me say...I spoke with the social worker...

To me this represents the fear of rivalry, and then, loss of role and access to the mother. Ultimately, abandonment.

That would fit, because, what my sister did was turn passive to active. Instead of letting my mother abandon her, she first abandoned my mother...as she was dying. And in this way she sought to establish her "power over"...all of us and exact vengeance.

If I look at it this way, it was a cold and calculated way to establish matriarchal power in the family...she was establishing her power in place of my mother as she died.

I must have sensed this unconsciously. Because I have many times consoled myself that my sister did not win. Because unbeknownst to her my mother had taken away from my sister any legal or medical powers as she died and after. Giving them to me, solely.

It is interesting to me that I could not face until now that what I saw as abandonment of my mother...was actually a power grab. I do not see why I could not know this until now.

Did I do a power grab, too? In some sense, I did. For my Mother or myself or both? Am I now the family matriarch? Did I become the golden child? Did I seek to be? I do not think so.

My sister wanted to be the "golden child", and have the powers and benefits of such.

what the sisters celebrate is chosen child status.

Yes.

And, one more time, it was never about us. It is about the patterns the grandiosity-addicted mother set up in her family.

Yes.

I think we cannot fix this, either.

No.

I just posted an article I found about sibling rivalry that I found useful.

Thank you Serenity and Cedar.

 

[Copabanana]

Among my mother's papers is a prayer book from the Mortuary/Cemetery where my grandfather is buried.

She wrote on the top: My Papa died on Labor Day, September 7, 1981.

It breaks my heart.

 

[BusynMember]

Where are you today, Cedar and Copa? I sense the tide has turned for all of us and we are doing so well.

I'm in a grateful mood. Grateful that I saw what was going on in my family of origin so young. Grateful that I kept them away from my children, even before they disowned me or I disowned them. I am grateful I sought help early and feel successful that it helped me so much. I am grateful to be me. When I was younger I always wished I were somebody else...somebody healthier, smarter, calmer, better. Today I am happy to sit in my own skin with MY family of choice, MY creativity and talents, MY personality, MY emotions, MY world. I had a long journey and am grateful I made it.

I am just so grateful that I built on the insight that something was wrong with myself (there is) and my family unit as a whole as early as six. I knew I was different. And I k new they were different too. If I had started my healing later than my first therapist, at 23, I may have not made it. I was fighting a serious mood disorder, neurological differences, and a family that was destined to blame me for it's own dysfunction and so I disconnected earlier than the rest and ended up happy.

I am grateful for the therapists who helped me when I had no support system, for Codapendents Anonymous, for the psychiatrist that talked me into trying paroxatine when I felt it wouldn't work, to the extremely incredible psychiatrist I had while in the hospital at 23 (he just rocked...he is an angel, I'm sure), to my self-help groups, to my BFF who is also an angel now and to my newest dear friends, Cedar a nd Copa.

I still struggle. With a mood disorder, medications help. They can not stop the little ups a nd downs. I still have down days, but they are so much less intense and so much more manageable. Cognitive Behavioral Therapy and Dialectal Behavioral Therapy (that spawned the concept of mindfulness and radical acceptance...even beyond Buddhism) have helped build me a tool box.

Today, my world is full of happiness and I plan on seeing my youngest bundle of love, Buddha Baby in September. So far it's been once a month.

And Friday I turn 62 and feel 32. Ok, well, maybe 39

I am grateful for every day.

 

[Copabanana]

Hi Serenity

I am here but about to leave to go to the UPS store.

I do not know where Cedar is.

I feel very grateful, too. I feel so much better. I am waking up feeling neutral. Not like I do not want to wake up or worse, like I want to die. Not even sad. I am almost happy.

I am working every day in the house. I have more energy and hope.

I do not yet know what is next for M and I, but once we work our way through the responsibilities of these next two months, we will see.

I may even decide to start doing some fun stuff. Getting into serious reading. Going to needlework classes. Getting out with the dogs. I am grateful.

I replied to your thread about Sis. It helped me put to bed some sadness about my own sister. I have been missing her, since I have been in touch with the sadness for her...and not seeing her as an enemy.

The thing is, it does not work if only one of us, renounces the old terms. Both have to. I do not know if my sister is willing or capable. Maybe someday I will be strong enough to risk...but it is not yet safe.

My fear with my sister is that she will have a great deal of anger with me around my mother's decline and death, and afterwards. I do not do well with people mad at me. Especially her. She is very, very scary to me.

I will check back later tonight. This is your birthday week, Serenity. We will celebrate the rest of the week. I am singing Happy Birthday right now (really) with Stella, the cat.

COPA

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

Happy, happy birthday, Serenity.



Cedar

Copa, I am here. I'm so pleased for all of us.

Daughter and ex-husband are here.

They leave tomorrow.