Is it ever ok to just be "done?"

[Copabanana]

On the detest mother's day thread Albatross posts about mother's who love their children so much and have to hold back or even deny their love because they cannot expose their tender hearts to children who draw blood.

She says it better.

And then when I came here to tell you I saw Darkwing's insightful post which says a variation of the same thing:

The entire time I was there, I couldn't understand why I hadn't cried. Started to think that I was just a bad person. It wasn't until I finally broke down that I realized that my apathy was due to the enormity of the pain, and that it was much easier to feel nothing.

Walrus. Your daughter whatever the reasons is very mean to you. You have done everything that a mother could do to stay in the ring with her but you are bruised and battered. They are calling the fight, and they have fouled her out. We are here with you mopping your brow.

You did not lose. You did not fail. She may learn. But it will have nothing to do with you. It is not your fight anymore. It is hers. You can go home now and feel pride and honor. Even love. The rest of the story will be written. She will write it.

 

[Sister's Keeper]

I think it's a lot like getting divorced.

When the relationship is 1st on the rocks you fight and struggle and try to make it right.

When you realize all your struggle isn't working you are hurt and sad and depressed.

When you finally do separate you are angry.

Then you just accept that the relationship is and was broken and you move on. You don't hate them and wish them any ill will, but you don't love them either.

I think in the grand scheme of things that we can only take so much, and many of us reach a point in time where we come to the realization that no matter what we do that this is just who they are and nothing will change that.

I am very much like that with my sister, and she was never nasty or mean, but just refuses to even try to get her life together. I've reached the point where I have just accepted that she is who she is and that is who she always will be.

...and, honestly, from what I understand about Borderline (BPD), your relationship with your daughter is probably what is best for all involved.

 

[BusynMember]

Sisters keeper, honestly, I've been divorced and both of us were able to heal from it, admit our wrongs to each other and stay friends. Goneboy, who never allowed any conversation, hurt my heart far more than ex, although with time I went through the grieving steps and am at peace. I think it is harder to let go of abusivev adult child if they still choose to hang around and abuse than if they just leave. Then it is processed more like a death, although you are glad they are still alive, even without you. I am grateful for his and his wife's reasons, deciding to disappear. They did so completely and never showed me their children. I don't know those kids so it's impossible to miss them.
It may not have been intentional. but he did me a kindness. By being totally not there for TEN years or more, it is possible to grieve and move on. Well, I did meet him once at his church, hoping to reconcile, but he and she were so mean and full of such puzzling feelings about what I allegedly did, I couldn't wait to leave. It just helped me see that we are better a part. That was my very last attempt to reach out and gave closure.

After fifteen years or so on this board I also think it helps that I have four other kids and two grandkids. I hurt for the moms of only children. Really bleed and feel badly.

Find other loved ones maybe young enough to be kids, then you can or enjoy being mom to grown kids. DNA is just a scientific fact...in my opinion it does not top love. Many of us have adopted kids whom we'd easily take a bullet for. My adopted kids are so incredibly loving. I would kill or die for them....I love with the fierceness of all mothers and do not favor my one DNA son. Love is love and so hard to define....it doesn't require that we give birth.

 

[so ready to live]

As for the verbal abuse from my son, I seem mostly unfazed by it, in the 'anger' aspect. Now, when he calls me in rages and saying awful, wretched, crazzzzy things to and about me, I get 'a sick and terrified' feeling. Not anger so much. If I do feel anger the next day, it's because I am totally pissed that he put me through that terror. I could see THOSE kinds of calls pushing me to near 'doneness', but not the things he says so much.

So my situation also...I do let the ensuing fear continue though..locking my doors, praying he won't show up to bring his anger to my doorstep. I never come over the hill to where my house is in sight, without hoping his car is not there and planning to drive on by my own house. Sick.

One factor that could be different, is that my verbally abusive d_c is a male and yours is a female. Would I get more ticked if my d_c were a dtr? Good question!

This may have some bearing, as a mom, are we more afraid of our sons and so react accordingly?

She texted me a happy Mother's Day today. First contact in over a month. I felt nothing except, "I wonder what she is up to," because she hasn't wished me a happy Mother's Day or birthday or Merry Christmas in longer than I can remember. My instinct was to delete it and ignore it because it means nothing to me. I just texted a thank you and then deleted it. It wouldn't have hurt me had she not acknowledged the day, but it means nothing to me that she did.

I got no text/call for the first time ever, there has been no contact for over 6 wks. Makes me wonder if he is "out of it" somewhere, or simply punishing us for giving him no sympathy, $, assistance anymore. Such an ugly game and Walrus is right in that I don't want to play anymore.

People who don't have these kinds of issues just don't get it

So true. Even my best friend said she would continue trying no matter what, she did seem a little more hesitant when we found drugs in our home. But then many people believe you simply "pack them up and send them to rehab..." If it were only that easy...
That being said--great thread-thank you all.

 

[New Leaf]

Oh boy I have a lot of catching up to do.
Done.
I think done is a boundary and there are many facets of done. When we have tried everything under the sun to reach out to our children, and nothing works, or they use and abuse our deep love for them over and over again, it is past high time to step back and reconsider.
Because we matter.
Because we deserve peace in our lives.
Because life is so very short and we sacrificed much for our children to raise them the best we could.
I also don't see done as finite. The end of the story is not yet written.
Done with the disrespect, chaos and drama. Done with losing ourselves with grief and sorrow over what the kids are doing.
Done is a good thing. Done shows our Difficult Child's that we have enough self respect to refuse inappropriate disrespectful attitudes and behaviors.
I will always love my Difficult Child's. I don't like them, what
their choices are, and how they feed off of chaos and drama.
We don't really get to choose when and how we leave Gods green earth, but we do have some choice over how we want to spend the rest of our lives, as far as our Difficult Child's are concerned.
I must sound a bit calloused, but after what we have been through, it brings this yearning for peace.
It is okay to just be done.
Difficult Child's need to figure out that we are people too. I think they forget that. I see mine as just taking it for granted that because I am their mother that it doesn't matter how they treat me. Their actions and words speak volumes that they are counting on their interpretation of "unconditional love"'. That is "I can do whatever I want and you must forgive me because you are my mother."
Well, it matters very much to me how I am treated.
Do what you need to do for your own peace of mind, Walrus, I am right there with you.
(((Hugs)))
Leaf

 

[rebelson]

Rebel - If she only did these things when she was using, I might be able to just put the blame on the drugs, not let it affect me. She doesn't. She can sometimes be worse when she is sober, and she intentionally will say the most hurtful, personal things she can think of.

This is a good point. With my son, I'm not always positive when he's been using/drinking when he says craaaaazy things. Sometimes he is uber drunk and then I can tell. But, other times, it's not always real evident to me, how messed up, if at all, that he is in that moment. I think he has such a high tolerance, that it can be well-hidden. So sometimes he's ranting at me and could be totally sober. That day end of March, day before he entered rehab and called me middle of day while I was shopping with children in Target.....was one of his worst rants in a long time. HE SOUNDED COMPLETELY SOBER. That time? I WAS pissed.

I'm also an empath and have a ton of compassion, possibly too much. I do tend to be used and taken advantage of, by ppl, because of that. With him, I am able to hear the cut-downs & names and just shrug it off. 'Meh. It's not true and I know this.' The words are his wounds & addiction talking, not my son's true self. At least, I hope that's not who he is..he's been using for so long and for most of his teenage/young adult life, that I am not 100% sure of what kind of person he IS as an adult.

The thing that does piss me off is when he calls me in such rages, that I actually feel a helpless terror regarding HIS safety, welfare in that moment. It's like, if he's going to do that, be raging like that, don't involve ME in the drama. Don't pick up that phone and dial this mom. THAT is what can piss me off. I have a hard time not worrying about him. So, I resent him bringing me in to his drama....

 

[Copabanana]

when he calls me in such rages, that I actually feel a helpless terror regarding HIS safety, welfare in that moment.

About our situation, that of my son and myself, I came to believe that by tolerating his acting out, I was hurting him.

By listening to it I was enabling him to continue doing this to himself.

I came to see that he needed me to stop tolerating it so that he could gain control over himself. That my listening to him without stopping the interaction was a form of consent.

It's like, if he's going to do that, be raging like that, don't involve ME in the drama. Don't pick up that phone and dial this mom.

He may be involving you, because he needs you to stop taking it. Not that it is a conscious test, but a test nonetheless.

As our children grow up they are needing to establish separate selves. They need it to be OK with us. These abusive contacts are some sort of way that they do this.

I very much believe that we need to put a stop to their abuse of us. In order for them to stop abusing themselves. (Of course the primary reason to stop it is to not participate in abuse. Period.)

The most remarkable changing began when I stopped accepting what felt like abuse from my son by curtailing contact with him, if he was abusive to me, and to not seek out contact at all.

It may have been a coincidence, but how can it hurt to stop accepting mistreatment? I would try to cut it off in the first few words.

 

[rebelson]

About our situation, that of my son and myself, I came to believe that by tolerating his acting out, I was hurting him.
By listening to it I was enabling him to continue doing this to himself.
I came to see that he needed me to stop tolerating it so that he could gain control over himself. That my listening to him without stopping the interaction was a form of consent.
He may be involving you, because he needs you to stop taking it. Not that it is a conscious test, but a test nonetheless.
As our children grow up they are needing to establish separate selves. They need it to be OK with us. These abusive contacts are some sort of way that they do this.

Thank you, thank you, thank you, Copa. For writing this in this more clear way. You are so good at this. The more I read about how my lack of reaction could be setting him back, the quicker and better I will be at making that change. I love him so much, I really do want to be better at this detachment thing. I just was born with such immense compassion, that it can also (& does!) come back to bite me in the butt.

I am going to print out, in tiny font, what you wrote ^^^, so that I can keep it in my wallet as a 'strength reminder'...lol.

 

[Copabanana]

I came to see that he needed me to stop tolerating it so that he could gain control over himself.

Let me explain this better.

I stopped tolerating the behavior by telling him I would not, stopping any interaction where he brought it up, and not contacting him at all.

He saw the consequences. No contact. He then made the decision to not talk about the subject with me.

At first the balance of power shifted from him to me. Then in order to have contact with me, he shifted the power struggle to inside of himself. He saw that he was choosing to not think of/speak about a topic in order to have contact with me.

Power within himself, over himself came to be substituted for power over me.

I believe that once he saw himself choosing to control himself in this way, curbing a behavior I felt was noxious, it somehow changed the dynamic between us and changed the dynamic in him.

The pay off for him was self-esteem. For some reason he decided to continue this. Sometimes. There has been more and more honest communication. And more and more changing by him.

This is the only way I can understand it. I do not know another way.

 

[rebelson]

Let me explain this better.

I stopped tolerating the behavior by telling him I would not, stopping any interaction where he brought it up, and not contacting him at all.

He saw the consequences. No contact. He then made the decision to not talk about the subject with me.

At first the balance of power shifted from him to me. Then in order to have contact with me, he shifted the power struggle to inside of himself. He saw that he was choosing to not think of/speak about a topic in order to have contact with me.

Power within himself, over himself came to be substituted for power over me.

I believe that once he saw himself choosing to control himself in this way, curbing a behavior I felt was noxious, it somehow changed the dynamic between us and changed the dynamic in him.

The pay off for him was self-esteem. For some reason he decided to continue this. Sometimes. There has been more and more honest communication.

This makes so much sense. A deeper understanding, a deeper 'digging' down into the mind, speaks stronger to me, than just 'you cannot let him talk that way to you.'

I have your printed out msg in my wallet now. I feel a certain renewed 'strength' now, with it. It really speaks to me in a way that I cannot ignore.

Is it sort of like a toddler who is knowingly doing something wrong right in front of you, watching to see if they can get your attention. To see if you will correct them? Only on a more subconscious level? Is this an example, Copa?

It's clear to me now, what I've been doing so, so wrong. Wrong for his growth, his self-esteem; wrong for both of our self-respect.

I fly to south FL tmrw night, for the 3 day family session. Looking so forward to seeing him.

 

[Childofmine]

Hi Walrus, just catching up here. Is it ever okay to be done? I think it is. I think we reach the end of our tolerance, and most of we moms have an overabundance of tolerance, and there. is. just. no. more.

And I think that is really a good day for us and for them. I don't think it is bad at all. Everything has its limits. We do, too.

I think about what Tanya has been through with her son and what she wrote here for you about that. Sometimes you just have to step away for a short time or a long time. You've just had enough.

And it sounds like for you, every single interaction is a negative one. There are no positive balances from her, so what, truly, is there for you to do? Going back again and again for the same treatment ultimately just doesn't make any sense for us.

And there comes the value of One Day At A Time. Who knows if she will ever change? She may or she may not. You can decide that "just for today" this is going to be how it is. You are done, and what does "done" look like for your life in terms of her.

Is it sad? Will you grieve? Maybe or maybe not. Maybe you will just feel relief for a long while.

Whatever it is, I hope you will accept yourself and work through any residual guilt or shame you might be feeling because of this.

I say it's a healthy choice, especially in the situation you are describing. Hang in there. Maybe you're about to get a long break from this. It's your choice.

 

[Copabanana]

watching to see if they can get your attention. To see if you will correct them? Only on a more subconscious level? Is this an example, Copa?

Use whatever image that works for you.

They are ambivalent about growing up, for whatever reason. They want to and yet do not want to. They try to push us away (make us do the separating) by treating us bad. Lying. Manipulating. Insulting. Mocking. Fill in the blanks. While at the same time they seek us out.

They feel if they exert power over us, they are actually powerful. You know and I know it is not true. For as long as we let them get away with this they have contempt for us, and contempt for themselves. There may be the illusion of power by them, but it really is just a childish game. They fool themselves. And at the same time they are hedging their bets. About growing up. It reinforces an incorrect view about the world and life...if we let them get away with it.

The only way this will work for them is if they decide, really decide they will change in specific and concrete ways. For them. For real.

M believes that we have to be near him in order to propel the change. Like sitting on him. I agree to a point, but only to a point. There has to be motivation on my son's part, too.

Having nowhere to live was very motivating. For a time. He needs to be reminded he is motivated to be off the street. Unfortunately for me, it hurts me as much or more, as him, to throw him out.

Right now we are in a game with my son. He thinks he can fool us and manipulate us. Pull the wool over our eyes. I told him: you leave (the rental house) tomorrow.

I had told him: No marijuana. We arrived, he was stoned. He had not followed through on multiple things he had agreed upon.

We tried to live with the marijuana but it undermined too many other things (he has a medical marijuana permit.) What do I care what kind of permit he has? This is not a landlord-tenant relationship. I am his mother. I do not have to be fair. If he plays hardball with me, watch how fast I turn on him.

I do not see another way through this. He has to decide what he wants. He cannot have his cake and eat it too. However close I want him, I cannot accept him close if he is fooling himself. Right now he thinks he is fooling me. He is fooling himself.

As I left he said: We can find a solution to all of this tomorrow.

I doubt it. I will listen to what he comes up with but I doubt it will be convincing. Sad.

The door will be open. If he wants to change. Really change. Not just change enough to get a place to stay out of the cold and then impose his rules.

 

[rebelson]

Thank you, Copa.
It seems like you are doing a great job in dealing with your son. I have noticed progress in your posts about him this last month.

I am new to this but my advice is to keep it up how you're handling him. He seems strong and so do you. So, it will be uphill a bit, you just need to keep running up the hill, and always be several steps ahead of him & his games.

 

[Childofmine]

It is always okay for us to try again if and when we are ready and decide to try again with them. By the same token, it is the same kind of okay to say that's enough.

I believe in a love of second chances (and the 135th chance). For me, after what seemed like 1000 chances had been given, we were...operating with an over abundance of caution...to say the least. We let a lot of time go by where he was a working homeless person, something I did not even know was possible.

For him, he had to get a job first and go to that job from a bench and a blanket day after day and month after month.

We waited and watched. Believe me we both wanted to help and were terrified to get involved, having been burned so many times.

We cannot create the perfect scenario that leads to be outcome we all want. We have to see what we can live with and take it from there. The prescription for a true solution is different in every situation and helping someone who is truly helping themselves can have a good outcome. There will be fits and starts and no perfect linear line of progress.

We try and then we see and then we decide. It is all okay.

 

[TheWalrus]

I don't need a perfect daughter. I don't want to dictate her choices. I am ok in disagreeing with her or knowing I would do differently. It is the use and abuse I can no longer tolerate. I can no longer handle forced interactions that leave me on edge and exhausted from trying to prevent any meltdowns or editing every word I say so that it won't later on get tangled and twisted in her mind to have some sinister meaning. I am tired of defending myself to someone who has already prosecuted, judged and sentenced me in her mind. There is no parole for her resentment, anger and blame.

 

[rebelson]

For as long as we let them get away with this they have contempt for us, and contempt for themselves.

Contempt. Perfect word to describe his selective choice of words to me, that sting.

For him, he had to get a job first and go to that job from a bench and a blanket day after day and month after month.

Now that ^^^ is real perseverance. I love that.

 

[Ironbutterfly]

I think there are many stages of being done, each stage applies to different people. For me being done with my son is:
1) Not getting caught up in his drama stories.
2) I keep our conversations simple, to the point.
3) I know he lies half the time, his reality of the things is his reality. My reality is he has learned to lie to survive on the streets for all these years. I get it. I don't have to try and figure it out to make logical sense to me.
4) I love him, always will. BUT, I have to get on with my life.
5) I tried everything I could to help get him on the right path; he blind-sided me for the most part. He self-sabotaged.
6) He has defiance and impulse control disorder. He will do whatever he wants when he wants, when he feels impulses to do the things, the choices he makes. I can't control that. I tried, it didn't work
7) I tried to help him financially, it doesn't help. He gets SSDI so he has money. He gets taken advantage of- his choice as he refuses to go to social services and let folks help him get his life on track. He has payees that screw him over, again, he won't get the help so he could live a better life.
8) I have dealt with the guilt, the feelings of failing as a Mother. I feel I have paid the price and my debt is cleared.

I am not done with always loving him, wondering how he is...but I no longer let it consume my life. I went down that rabbit hole and almost destroyed me. I can't go there again.

It's ok to be done...whatever stage applies to folks on this road we travel here with our children.

 

[Copabanana]

there are many stages of being done, each stage applies to different people

I am thinking here of the Buddhist idea of detachment, of letting go of ego investment in anybody, idea, or thing. It is not that the love is not there but the need is not, and the desire for what is not present in the moment is not there. I have not studied this so forgive me if I am wrong in my understanding.

 

[TheWalrus]

I have dealt with the guilt, the feelings of failing as a Mother. I feel I have paid the price and my debt is cleared.

Yes...and while I will never stop loving her or reject her, my debt, whatever it is, has been paid. I no longer feel obligated to be use up my resources (financially or emotionally) to "balance the books."

 

[Ironbutterfly]

I am thinking here of the Buddhist idea of detachment, of letting go of ego investment in anybody, idea, or thing. It is not that the love is not there but the need is not, and the desire for what is not present in the moment is not there. I have not studied this so forgive me if I am wrong in my understanding.

I have no clue if this is a Buddhist idea. It's just how I have come to understand how I need to separate myself from my son and his life and his choices. I, for many years, felt the need to be there, fix everything, every drama, lost sleep, lost weight, put him first to care for before other children and husband. To always carry the guilt on my back that he was born mentally impaired ( due to oxygen deprivation, long labor, he was 12# when born by emergency c-section after 2 days of hard labor/and or ex husband beat me while pregnant).

He is intelligent enough to know right from wrong, to know how "lie", to "manipulate" to always blame things on every one else. He knew how to hook me back in "emotionally" with fears of being killed on the street, going to jail, drugs, etc. It wasn't until I came here about 6 months ago and read the articles on detachment, the life stories from other folks here that the light-bulb came on of what I needed to do going forward with my son. I was simply exhausted. My health, sanity has returned and I find joy in every day and I no longer live on the edge of "next phone call" drama and feeling the need I need to fix whatever is happening to him, with him. When he calls I listen to a point, if he goes into too much drama, I stop the conversation and say, listen I love you, but I have to go. I don't allow myself to get sucked back into all of it.