major development with DS

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
When you live hand-to-mouth the way he has, it changes you. You experience degradation that changes you, hardens you, and makes you a not so nice person. He looks and acts like a homeless person.
Hi Beta. This has been my own experience with my son. I am sorry. It is the hardest thing.
I really want this to work.
I know you do. As I did. The reality is only a tiny part of this, is in your hands. You know this.
Thus, the purpose of prayer is perhaps less to obtain what we ask than to Become someone else
I love this quote, JP. Do you remember the source?
I'm thinking maybe I've been the "delusional" one here--thinking that showing love and care for him would soften his heart
It's not delusion, I think, it's love. Is love a delusion? Some might say so. What do you think?
'I have no idea why or how the mean words come out of my mouth' I love you so much
This is so beautiful newstart. One reason I stopped enabling my son was how it affected me. I was bitter, blaming, punitive and self-righteous. In real life I am none of those things. I had turned into a monster. I don't want to be this person.

I believe Josh has used this anger as a defense, against vulnerability., to internal and external stimuli. He has been living a very unstable, insecure lifestyle, where anything could come at him. How can this not have an effect? The need to defend himself against all comers.

And as I have said before. I don't believe, in the most basic sense, he has bitterness or anger towards you. There is something happening within him that is frightening him. His own thoughts and feelings. There is he displaces onto you. Without awareness and control he may use the anger in a self-protective way. Not against you, but against this part of himself that he fears so.
he kept repeating the same track he gets on about helping him
This perseverating comes from whatever mental illness/fragility/poor coping he may be experiencing. It's like a broken record that keeps skipping at the same spot. It's not the real music. It's a groove that's become warped or chipped or even dirty.

While I hesitate to write this, ignore or tune out his broken record, as much as you can. I know how hard it is. I tried and tried, and I could not tune it out.

I forget. Has he used any kind of substances? Even alcohol or marijuana. My son is in a sober living home run by the Rescue Mission which is a Christian service project in my town. The director is a retired pastor. For people without means it is free, including housing, food, and program. I am not sure if there needs to be substances involved, because they take recently released prisoners too. While I don't think my son does the programs, there is fellowship, bible study, service, and there are workshops to handle the effects of trauma, etc. The program helps the residents connect with community resources, and meet goals.

Why not look into the availability of something like this where you are? Josh has voiced he wants to move out as soon as he has the resources. You will soon move. It makes sense to me that he find a program. The other option would be a treatment program of some sort. What do you think?

My heart is with you, Beta.
 
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Across The Pond

New Member
Hi Beta
i was thinking that the anger towards your husband could be just displaced anger towards himself. And people with unfulfilled physiological needs ( tiredness, hunger, isolation, low nutition, disease) are not themselves ... it all builds up into an unbalanced individual. Anger may be the only thing that is keeping him going. I have also heard that suicidal feelings are more likely when people are coming out of a really low patch and things are starting to get better , or just going down into low period.
I hope things improve for you all; and a new future starts to look a little clearer.
 

Beta

Well-Known Member
Hey all--just a quick update. Things are tolerable. At times, he's a little sullen and non-communicative; can't seem to remember being taught "Please" and "Thank you," but is not aggressive, hostile, or threatening.
He and my husband talk about sports---only. He spends most of time in his room, watching stuff on his phone. Comes out to eat. I've offered to take him to buy some jeans and new shoes, but strangely, he gets irritated and refuses.

We are only planning on being where we are for about another 8-10 weeks. It would help if he could find some sort of job. The problem with that is: 1) He doesn't have a DL. 2) He thinks there might be a warrant out for him for not appearing in court after a Disorderly Conduct charge 3) He absolutely refuses to do any job that involves interacting with the public, which eliminates quite a few jobs, and isn't really capable to doing that anyway. I have no idea what he's going to do with himself, both now and when we move.

Anyway, I just wanted to let you all know that I'm safe but just somewhat frustrated and disgusted with his crummy behavior.
 

Beta

Well-Known Member
Thank you Acacia. I'm so sorry for the hurt your son has caused you. It hurts when you try to love on someone and bless them with good things, and they treat it as though it's nothing or even become insulting. I know how that feels, and it is painful.
 

Beta

Well-Known Member
By the way, our youngest son left early this morning to begin his trek across the country to Washington state. He called earlier to say he was stopping for the night. His brother, Josh, knows that he is moving across the country and shows absolutely no interest whatsoever. Not a word.

He is the poster child for narcissism, as far as I'm concerned. It's very exhausting being around someone like that, as well as hurtful and frustrating. He has no capacity to emphasize with anyone or show love. It's really tragic.
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
He has no capacity to emphasize with anyone or show love. It's really tragic.
Beta. While I empathize with how hard this is, and identify with the situation too, I would urge you to stay in the present and to not dig in with blanket pronouncements about his personality, his capacity. I don't think it helps you at all. I remember you writing that he was loving as a child. Josh is still that person, on some level. He's not acting like it, no. But he's had to deal with a great deal of adversity, personal upheaval, and G-d knows what else.
 

BusynMember1

Well-Known Member
I am very sorry about that lack of love. My daughter is sadly the same. She doesn't love or know how to live.bi try not to think it is due to her being adopted, but deep in my heart where a mother just knows things, I think my daughter is partly like she is because she was adopted, even though she was very young when we adopted her. Since that time I have both read and heard that even two months of a baby without a primary living caregiver can cause this. If so, she was in that situation for three months and as she got older and was no longer interested in impressing us she showed her true colors. I feel like it's not even all her fault. She spent her first three months with alternating caregivers.

I could tell the difference with my other two right away. We have a special bond, although this does not always happen with biological kids. You need only read these sad stories to know that. But this is how it is with us. Kay is very centered on Kay and only Kay and is not one bit interested in anyone else in the family. So I understand how Josh behaves, although I don't know him or why he acts that way.

Drugs never help. Not even pot. It is not a benign healthy plant.

I feel for you. Honestly, Kay's lack of love hurt us more than how she didn't thrive. So...guess I just want you to know that I get the situation. And I know how it feels. At this point in time, I am done trying. All the love we poured on Kay did nothing except make her meaner.

With all my heart I hope things turn out differently for you. It is so incredibly hard. I honestly think Kay helped cause my numbness toward her. I literally panic just remembering life with Kay. I must be a terrible mother.bilI am so numbed out that the love is hidden...I can't feel it anymore. How bad is that?

God bless your entire family.
 
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Copabanana

Well-Known Member
I have both read and heard that even two months of a baby without a primary living caregiver can cause this
My son lived his first 22 months in a crisis nursery without a primary caretaker. We were very bonded, and we still are. What did change was that my son did become like Beta's son, for a long time, but then little by little his heart and empathy seem to be coming back.

When he got cold hearted and distant, it was the hardest thing.

Since he moved out he has contacted me once, text or call I don't remember, and that was because I believe he wanted to come back.

When I dropped by where he was living, he was angry and rejecting. But he made the point to tell me he was taking his antivirals, and had rescheduled the neuropsychological exam, things he knows cause me a great deal of concern. I was grateful for this. And then he texted me to apologize for how he behaved and to tell me he loves me.

Clearly, this is no reason to have a parade and start waving from the float, but it is something.

The point I want to make is that I don't think it's possible to come to ironclad conclusions based upon their behavior, when they're going through things like Beta's son, or my son.

I am not taking a position about any other adult child than my own, but very slowly I see changing. And I will take it. I think drugs really change them. If they are able to stop, I hold out hope for personality change.

Let me end by saying how painful this has been for all of us, and how hard it is to hang onto hope. I struggle.
 
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BusynMember1

Well-Known Member
I am talking about my own child, although I think that she is going through the same things your kids are. I see no difference...she is homeless, mentally ill and miserable...that goes with those things sadly. I certainly don't think to speak for other people. Josh sounds a lot like Kay, but that means nothing. I do think about Kay's sadness, therefore my own, in relation to her adoption. My other two kids and me have an unshakable bond and always did and I feel strongly always will. We are incredibly alike which helps. Kay is very different and that sort of intense bond was never there. So I am talking about my family. What I see. What I know about us. The guilt I have felt. The distance Kay has put between all of us. Let's not forget that she has also pretty much abandoned her son. This woman was damaged by being adopted, her anger at being rejected, her desire to meet "my people" (this hurts).

Now I know people with thriving adopted kids who are close to them. But I also know that half the kids who make it into therapy are adopted. Perhaps they are like Kay, feeling out of place, wanting to look in the mirror and know why she looks this way (she has said this) and wanting to know why she is so naturally musically gifted...where it came from....because it did not come from us. I know that I would have gone childless, which I was told would happen if I did not adopt, rather than reach out and love a child who is not happy to be here...who is actually the opposite. I did not adopt Kay to make her sad. I have cried buckets over this.

Now I know there are biological kids who bring their parents here. I don't know what makes them sad. But I know why Kay is sad and unattached. Compared to my other two kids she is a deliberate stranger. The bond between us makes me feel guilty because Kay always claimed she was different from all of us and did not belong. Oh, the guilt!

We tried so hard to help her feel our love and support.

I know Kay is not the only adopted child who feels like an outsider. Kay does. She does not believe that she can be the high achiever the rest of us are and it breaks my heart. So her solution seems to be to not try and to distance herself from us....and from everyone except Lee.

I am sharing because this forum is for this purpose.

Take what you like and leave the rest.

Beta, I get the behavior and send blessings for all. I hope your son becomes changed for the better. Hugs and love.
 

200Meters

A real bustard
Beta said:
I have no idea what he's going to do with himself

This is the really frustrating part (one of them anyway), this aimlessness, seeing their potential go to waste. Mrs. 200Meters & I so much want Oldest & Youngest to do something with their lives and not fritter them away on male bovine excrement.

Beta said:
I just wanted to let you all know that I'm safe...

Thank G-d!

Beta said:
but just somewhat frustrated and disgusted with his crummy behavior.

Sounds familiar.:(

Be well!
 

Crayola13

Well-Known Member
Beta, I lit a prayer candle for you and your situation. I think things will get more peaceful soon. When we go to church later I will light another one. I'm New to Catholicism, but I've noticed that God seems to take prayer candles seriously. I don't know why it's more effective than just saying a regular prayer, but it is.
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
I do think about Kay's sadness, therefore my own, in relation to her adoption.
Recently I took a workshop from a man who has devoted his life to healing traumatized children, and the adults they become. He reinforced to me the sense the agony adoption is for young people and he put it this way: They have to integrate 4 family lines instead of the 2 that birth children do. I am not so sure I understand it, but if you think about it, it's not just the abandonment, and the wresting away from culture and genetic heritage. It's the coming to grips with all of it, the integration of family lines, that must be dealt with. There is so much we don't know about ancestral influences, only now being researched in the field of epigenetics.
This woman was damaged by being adopted, her anger at being rejected
We don't know what our adopted children's lives would have been, had we not loved and raised them. We did not reach in and uproot children who were in fine, loving, safe, secure, permanent homes. The destabilizing circumstances that led to their adoption had already occurred. The trajectory of their lives had already been disrupted. After that, there were no "perfect" options.

When you think of it, who in life has a "perfect" trajectory. Things I never considered as having an impact on my life, or a major one, my mother's prior abortion and miscarriage for instance, and the fact I was a DES baby. We enter into this life already constrained by the circumstances, that affected us prenatally.

Perhaps it is that we did not sufficiently anticipate how the trajectory of our lives would be impacted by adopting a child.
I would have gone childless, which I was told would happen if I did not adopt, rather than reach out and love a child who is not happy to be here.
This is the crux of things. My adopting my own son, is at the core of my life. I believed it to be the best thing that ever happened to me. For years and years we were content. And then, all of this.

My son is not happy to be here. He hates himself. And he does not see a way out of this. Does that mean that I need to lament my whole life from the time I adopted him? Was it a wrong choice on my part? There are moments that I feel this way. That I made a mistake. This is very painful to write. But the reality is I did not make a mistake. What I did was make my life. Nobody anticipates the future. There is no future without struggles, pain, challenges, tragedy.

I read an opinion piece in the New York Times a months or so ago. It was a youngish mother who described riding on the subway and being attracted to a guy, a fellow passenger. For four years they exchanged glances, until one day, they struck up a conversation. They married and had a couple of children. They were happy. Their life was on an upward trajectory. And then one day he had a brain aneurism and like that, he was dead.

She obsessed about her whole story with him. How such innocence, simple yearning for love could lead her to such grief and loss. That this destiny of a brain defect, had always been present in her husband, and she had voluntarily and unknowingly taken it into her own life. And this is life, for all of us.
I did not adopt Kay to make her sad. I have cried buckets over this.
No. We adopted our children to love them. Just like this woman sought to love and to build a family.
Compared to my other two kids she is a deliberate stranger.
For many years I did not see or speak to my own parents. For the last 6 or 7 years before my father died, I had not seen or spoken to him. In fact, I didn't find out my father was dead for 5 years after he was dead.

These things happen in families. Both of my parents suffered because of my actions. I recognize now that while I saw the responsibility for my actions, as my parents', that their limitations forced me to act as I did, there were real limits in my own personality, that I have struggled with my whole life.

There is nothing fair or right about how each of us deals with our life story, especially how our actions and attitudes affect the people who love us. More and more I think that the answer is to try to find contentment and meaning by making nurturing and meaningful choices in my day to day minutes and hours. I believe now that these life stories of ours are a mixed bag. We need to find a way to make some sort of sense of them, and achieving this gives peace and power.

The thing is that we get trapped in our stories, like in a maze. And when we do I am coming to believe that the best thing to do, for me, is either to fly up like a bird, or dig down deep to go under it. For me, meditation and exercise, and laughter are ways to get out of the trap of my laugh story, if I remember to do this for myself.

If I look at it this way my son, and some of our kids are in the same place as am I. They get trapped in the maze of their life stories, and don't know what to do or how to do it to escape. And then when they get caught, we because we love them so much, lose ourselves in their mazes, too.

And then trapped in these mazes of theirs, we come to define our own lives as mazes, because we can't see our way out or through. I think this takes great will and love, to decide to take ourselves outside of the mazes, so that we can locate ourselves and our lives, in a place of succor, relief, clarity and purpose. But staying inside our kids mazes only distresses us. At any point, at any moment we have the ability to fly up out or dig down deep.

I am not trivializing my own or others suffering or thinking. I am only trying to find a way to experience my own life as having been meaningful and good.
 
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BusynMember1

Well-Known Member
Thank you, Copa. Believe it or not that was so comforting. It was powerful and, yes, brilliant!

I hurt for your pain....all of our pain. I would love to give you a hug. I would love to hug everyone here.

You are a very wise lady though and have a lot going for you. Hugs and love.
 

JMom

Well-Known Member
Beta,

Is there somewhere your son could walk to for work just a couple of days a week to get re-acclimated? When my son came home from the streets, he was pretty shell shocked for a few weeks. Living outside is scary. He may be acting out just to be able to control something, anything. Just a thought, none of my business really. My heart goes out to ya'll. There's nothing wrong with easing back into it.

Hugs,
Jmom
 

RN0441

100% better than I was but not at 100% yet
Tough spot to be in.

I fear that Josh may not be able to handle having a job due to his current frame of mind. It's almost like that is putting the cart before the horse. Please don't get angry with me for saying that.

I think of the situation with our son. We thought him going to college would "straighten him out". We would have done anything to turn the ship around.

He went to junior college 2x and we pulled him out 2x for abusing drugs during that time. I remember the start of one semester he went to his first day of school drunk. We drove him and picked him that day up but he smelled like alcohol on the ride there. I prayed he'd do okay and only drink that one time.

The other semester he binged on pills but wanted to continue in school - he was getting good grades at that time - but I wanted him out of my house and into rehab.

Luckily both times we got a medical withdrawal so we got some money back and it did not count against him.

I completely understand you want him to do something "normal" and just want him to be normal and your family to be normal.

I want that too and my son is still not "normal" to me but functioning at a higher level than he ever has. I still don't understand how he thinks much of the time. I really want him to be on his own as soon as possible but I will continue to worry. He still has no friends and he's been here a year now. He only has us and I hate it.

I don't know what the answer is for your Josh. It seems like he needs some type of medication or therapy - I'm sure you know this too and I'm sure he won't do either.

Has he been successful before with any type of job?
 

Crayola13

Well-Known Member
I don't know why he keeps saying you never did anything for him. You put him through college, if I recall. When I was 18, all I heard was, "You don't know how lucky you are to be in college." My dad would tell me over and over, "I would have given my right arm if I could have gone to college. You've got it made." The teacher in me has always believed my dad's words. I think your son, and any other kid who goes to college is fortunate.
 

BusynMember1

Well-Known Member
They all say that. I had money saved up for Kay to go to college and she wouldn't go. It would not have cost her anything. We bought her a house and she lost the house. We bought her a mobile home and three cars and she lost everything. We paid for apartments, bills, credit cards etc. And she says we did nothing for her.

One thing I know we did. We lost most of our retirement money trying to give Kay a good life. My other two never got what she did yet they don't tell us we did nothing for them....

Blessings!
 
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