Mrsammler

[Nomad]

I recall coming here and one person in particular use to post some good advice...usually delivered just fine...but sometimes a bit harsh and bullish.
Haven't read all the posts from Mrsa... but the ones I have read, I have liked. And I too have appreciated your insight!
With reference to violence in the home, and this goes double when we are dealing with someone 18 years or older, I think a firm stand should be taken.
Pretty much the same thing with any illegal activity going on....it just should not be tolerated.
Sometimes it is hard to draw the line....
Certain things can be a little unclear....but I don't think there are grey areas when it comes to violence or illegal activity.
One way we can look at is once we hit the PE Forum...life should get easier and if it is not gettng easier, it is up to us to make it so.
But, always good to be respectful.
Us parents are hurting...this has been a very tough road for us all.


by the way, I do think there are such things as sociopaths.

 

[AnnieO]

I have to add just a little.

Sometimes, yes, I'm hearing a judgmental tone - but I've heard that from others too, others who I now consider close (or reasonably so).

No, there aren't many men here. From what I have seen, many men don't see that something is wrong. Just a fact. And not always the case. And - women talk.

Not to mention that women have traditionally raised the children in most societies. Has something to do with giving birth... Nursing... And so on.

However, I have to say this: When you have a child that physically beats the holy living snot out of you, for leaning over them - or better yet, trying to work out a compromise - there is no self defense from a difficult child in a rage. It is as if they gain superhuman strength. And having been hurt multiple times, having seen my husband hurt, while he is trying to restrain her without hurting back - and having the authorities not care, except if you hurt them back you will go to jail... Yeah. Cops come out and see husband - former military - and "little" Onyxx - of course she couldn't hurt anyone. And then they see me, and my bruises. And she goes after me and Jett - because we are smaller and weaker than she is. If she didn't already have a record, they'd laugh it off and tell husband to keep better control of her. Or, "why don't you just let her mother have custody and walk away like a good father?"

Yeah, that's my reality. I have a stepdaughter who is on drugs, is bipolar, is violent, has been molested, and has been shown repeatedly that the justice system does not care. So... She does not care. I stay out of her way as much as possible.

 

[witzend]

I think that there are such things as sociopaths. I also think that the term is more loosely applied than it should be. Someone who chops up the wife and puts her in the crawl space and continues to live in the stench as she rots below is a sociopath. I tell myself that there aren't a lot of those around. I have a problem with our kids being called sociopaths if they have not gotten that diagnosis. I pray that none of them are.

 

[mrsammler]

Very, very few sociopaths/psychopaths are the violent criminal you describe below. The vast majority of them are, as Hervey Cleckley points out convincingly in The Mask of Sanity, simply chronic family nuisances, embarrassments, and parasitic, foolish, trouble-prone pests who drain & exhaust their families/parents emotionally and financially. The slick, high-functioning sociopathic businessman/politician is just as rare as the ruthless rapist/murderer--they do exist, but in very small percentages of the total population of psychopaths/sociopaths. Most sociopaths are too disorganized and immature to perform well in academia or the workplace--the vast majority can't keep a job for any length of time, and many never try--so the "American Psycho" portrait of a highly successful sociopath is usually pure fiction. Similarly, the sociopath murderer/rapist/violent criminal profile is badly overblown--while a great many sociopaths get into trouble with the law and many experience incarceration at one point or another, it is usually via fairly petty, non-violent criminality: crimes involving intoxication or drug possession, use, or dealing; robbery and theft; grift and fraud of various kinds; and so on. As Cleckley points out at one point, most live their lives as very stunted, immature, amoral, heartlessly selfish (and therefore dangerous) children who never grow up.

 

[Shari]

As Cleckley points out at one point, most live their lives as very stunted, immature, amoral, heartlessly selfish (and therefore dangerous) children who never grow up.

Oh, you mean my mother in law! (j/k - sorta)

 

[donna723]

I don't believe there are really a lot of true sociopaths out there. After working in the prison system for 24 years I saw a few and believe me, when you see the real thing, they will give you cold chills! Remember the little girl in the old movie, "The Bad Seed"? NOT an exaggeration!

I once was part of a three-person prison disciplinary board that was hearing the case of an inmate who had strangled another inmate to death for damaging his television. Of course he was charged with murder in outside court - the institutional hearing was more of a formality so he could be reclassified to maximum security. He was a small baby-faced 19 year old, looked about 12, was very pleasant and mannerly to talk to and looked just like any other kid you'd see walking through the mall. We were even making small talk with him. He readily admitted doing it but was very concerned that we accurately take down his side of the story. He was very sure that if it was read in court, they would understand why he did it and everything would be OK! We wrote down everything he said word for word and gave it to him every few minutes so he could make sure it read the way he wanted it to. Of course, we knew that what he was really doing was confessing to murder but to him it was explaining why he did it and it all made perfect sense to him! He had jumped this other inmate that he was sure had ruined his TV and was strangling him. And while he was strangling him, the other inmate was struggling and kicking, trying to get away. He told him to stop fighting him and he would stop and of course he kept struggling. And since he chose to continue to struggle, that meant he had chosen to continue being strangled! It made perfect sense to him and he assumed that it did to us too. He didn't feel the slightest bit of guilt over it either because, in his eyes, the other inmate had chosen the outcome himself, practically a suicide, so why should he feel guilty? And he told us all this without the slightest bit of emotion, the way we might describe swatting a mosquito that was biting us! To him it was no more than that and he had done nothing wrong! That's one of the few times in 24 years that I was ever really disturbed by talking to an inmate! And when he went to trial, the jury was not told why he was in prison in the first place, not until they had found him guilty. He was in prison for first degree murder for strangling his own mother! And that didn't really bother him either! He may have been an extreme case but this kid was the closest you're ever going to get to being a pure sociopath!

 

[witzend]

Very, very few sociopaths/psychopaths are the violent criminal you describe below. The vast majority of them are, as Hervey Cleckley points out convincingly in The Mask of Sanity, simply chronic family nuisances, embarrassments, and parasitic, foolish, trouble-prone pests who drain & exhaust their families/parents emotionally and financially. The slick, high-functioning sociopathic businessman/politician is just as rare as the ruthless rapist/murderer--they do exist, but in very small percentages of the total population of psychopaths/sociopaths. Most sociopaths are too disorganized and immature to perform well in academia or the workplace--the vast majority can't keep a job for any length of time, and many never try--so the "American Psycho" portrait of a highly successful sociopath is usually pure fiction. Similarly, the sociopath murderer/rapist/violent criminal profile is badly overblown--while a great many sociopaths get into trouble with the law and many experience incarceration at one point or another, it is usually via fairly petty, non-violent criminality: crimes involving intoxication or drug possession, use, or dealing; robbery and theft; grift and fraud of various kinds; and so on. As Cleckley points out at one point, most live their lives as very stunted, immature, amoral, heartlessly selfish (and therefore dangerous) children who never grow up.

That's just plain offensive. And what exactly are you doing to make the world safe from the psychopath in your family? Or are you just here to rub our faces in how awful our children are and what terrible parents we've been?

 

[mrsammler]

Good lord. This is what I find very problematic about some of the interaction in this forum. I simply posted a batch of (very standard, boilerplate, and accessible anywhere on the web) information on a topic already in discussion in this thread, with absolutely no implication embedded therein, and you post this. Really?? Do you actually think I posted this to throw rocks at you or anyone? I say again: this sort of topically prohibitive response--don't say that! this sort of info is banned! I find offense in this neutrally presented, entirely factual post in response to posts topically preceding it!--is very problematic.

And in reply to "what exactly are you doing to make the world safe from the psychopath in your family?," I will point out what I've already posted in this thread regarding my conduct in reply to a very, very toxic difficult child in my family: I stepped up. I dropped my life and flew in to help and gave 15 months of my time to assist a family member in need. So please spare me the ad hominem, ill-informed, accusatory reply. I've got absolutely nothing to apologize for here. But your post is very off-putting and problematic.

 

[mrsammler]

If you think I simply tailored my post on sociopathy to impugn parents here, I would urge you to read Hervey Clekley's The Mask of Sanity, which is available online and, at about 120 pages, is easily readable in 2 to 4 hours. I simply pointed out what he says in his still-much-cited and authoritative book on the topic: that there's a standard profile of the psychopath (the term that was current in his time--now sociopath or ASPD)--he presents about 9 profiles of actual patients to point out how standard the profile is--and my description in my post was simply a summary of his point about them. If that's "offensive," then your quarrel is not with me--it's with facts presented by one of the eminent authorities on the topic in the last century.

Really, I tire of this sort of thing. Witzend, if you wish to prohibit facts, or posts citing facts, in broad distribution on the internet and elsewhere on this or any other topic, I suggest that you post a list of Prohibited Facts and let the rest of us decide if we wish to abide by those restrictions. Otherwise, live and let live and let people post as they deem useful, helpful, or informative.

 

[DammitJanet]

witz he isnt blaming us.. He is simply explaining his insights.

 

[toughlovin]

I didn't find this offensive because he is quoting from a book he has read and that is ok and was interesting. I think though that usually when you hear talk about sociopaths.... you also hear that the cause was severe abuse or trauma as a child. I have no idea if that is true or not and I have not studied this subject. I think what bothers me a bit is that I think so many typical teen behaviors have an element of sociopathy that it is premature to diagnose an 18 year old as a sociopath.... keeping it in mind as a possibility is ok but I think labelling most 18 year olds, even severe difficult children as sociopaths is premature.... not the guy in prison who murdered his mother though. Ugh that sounded horrible.

Mrsammler, I wonder about your difficult child nephew. He does sound extreme, although his behavior is not unfamiliar. Has he gone through severe trauma as a child? I mean so many behaviors fit so many criteria for so many diagnoses that it can be hard for a lay person (or even a trained professional) to really diagnose someone.

I know when we talked to professionals about our son... he did fit the criteria definitely for ODD (and I know many on this board don't see that as really a valid diagnosis). In talking to the therapist who did a thorough evaluation of our son at 15 they felt that ODD made sense and it did to me too... and talked to us about how without intervention that can turn into full blown conduct disorder... and that often does lead to sociopathy. On other words, ODD, conduct disorder and sociopathy are all on a continum.

What I see with my son is that he has a good caring side to him, and he has a darker side. Somehow he needs to find a way to bring the two sides of him together and become a responsible citizen. He is trying I think. I also have known many people who as teens were totally out of control who as they got older, and got fully developed brains did become responsible adults who actually had good relationships with their parents.

 

[DaisyFace]

Maybe I am mis-informed...?

But it was my understanding that what we refer to as "Sociopath" is the diagnosis of "Anti-Social Personality Disorder"....which seems to be the last diagnosis in line from ODD to CD to full-blown Anti-Social Personaility...

And the Disorder is primarily characterized by a completely self-centered view of the world and little regard for others.

While it CAN lead to violent criminal behaviors....violent crimes are not the primary "hallmark" of the disorder.

 

[AnnieO]

I do believe that there is a difference - a HUGE difference - between a true sociopath and sociopathic behavior.

but was very concerned that we accurately take down his side of the story. He was very sure that if it was read in court, they would understand why he did it and everything would be OK!

It made perfect sense to him and he assumed that it did to us too. He didn't feel the slightest bit of guilt over it either because, in his eyes, the other inmate had chosen the outcome himself, practically a suicide, so why should he feel guilty?

This is an extreme case, as as presented gave me chills, but it is also the same sort of thing you see in many of our difficult children - "It made perfect sense to him"... We call it magical thinking. Just because the child exhibits sociopathic behavior does not make him or her a sociopath - though it's possible.

A child who does not understand right from wrong isn't a sociopath - but they won't feel guilty, either.

 

[Hound dog]

From research I've done, they are one and the same DF..............but like with other dxes there is a spectrum of sorts, at least that was my understanding over all. And as Step added, you can also have behaviors but not have the actual disorder.

Katie's husband M most definitely is a sociopath, I can check off the whole list without effort with the guy. Katie has many of the behaviors. I'm not sure if this is from living with her husband for so darn long, or if she's on the less severe end of the spectrum. The jury is still out on her at the moment.

I suspect, and the jest of what I gathered in my reading, that in recent years they realize there were many more people who had so many of the characteristics without the extreme violent tendencies.....they broadened how they look at it as if it were another spectrum disorder. I'm still researching and learning about it though.

 

[donna723]

In the time I worked with the Dept. of Correction I saw a lot of records where inmates were described by mental health staff as having "sociopathic tendencies". I guess there are varying degrees of it, like so many other things. The young man I described was certainly an extreme case. In his mind, he had done nothing wrong at all. He had no guilt, no conscience, no feelings for other people whatsoever, even his family. We saw a lot of them that had some kind of feelings or sympathy for their own family members, friends or fellow gang members but none for rival gang members, people they didn't know, people of other races, or the victims of their crimes. But the young man I described felt absolutely NOTHING for anyone! What made him so creepy was that he was so polite and so pleasant to talk to, if you knew nothing about him and were just meeting him, you would be thinking, "What a nice young man!"

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

It appears that different people are working with different definitions of sociopath and psychopath here (in spite of our collective familiarity with personality disorders).

Per the dictionary and other sources, I believe the most commonly understood meanings would be approximately:

sociopath - affected by an antisocial personality disorder; relates very abnormally with others; lacking a sense of moral responsibility; interested only in their personal needs and desires, without concern for the effects of their behavior on others.

psychopath - the same, only somewhat worse: inclined toward criminal or violent acts.

So people in general would not think of a "sociopath" as being the equivalent of a serial killer type; they might consider "psychopath" applicable to a serial killer, chop up family members and bury them under the house type, but would probably want to add some kind of qualifier such as extreme, murderous, insane, or brutal to distinguish him from an "ordinary" psychopath.

 

[witzend]

witz he isnt blaming us.. He is simply explaining his insights.

He's more than welcome to explain his incites to us regarding his nephew. But to draw a direct line between (our) kids who are in minor trouble with the law or having difficulties in school to dangerously violent sociopaths and psychopaths is going too far. We've had 12 years of therapy with M. And most of us have had at least the mention of "sociopath" in our sessions. To paint "sociopath" with such broad criminal brush is ill-informed and superior.

Mrsammler, you can't change your sister or your nephew. They can. The only thing you can do to affect any change in this situation is to call the police when you know that he has harmed her. They must investigate, and eventually she will get into the victim's advocacy program. But if all you want to do is come here and tell us what an expert having read a couple of books makes you about our children and what we've done wrong in raising them and how hopeless any kid who has troubles in school or keeping a job because of their diagnosis's and we should all just give up hope because they're sociopaths, take it somewhere else.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

He's more than welcome to explain his incites to us regarding his nephew. But to draw a direct line between (our) kids who are in minor trouble with the law or having difficulties in school to dangerously violent sociopaths and psychopaths is going too far. We've had 12 years of therapy with M. And most of us have had at least the mention of "sociopath" in our sessions. To paint "sociopath" with such broad criminal brush is ill-informed and superior.

Mrsammler, you can't change your sister or your nephew. They can. The only thing you can do to affect any change in this situation is to call the police when you know that he has harmed her. They must investigate, and eventually she will get into the victim's advocacy program. But if all you want to do is come here and tell us what an expert having read a couple of books makes you about our children and what we've done wrong in raising them and how hopeless any kid who has troubles in school or keeping a job because of their diagnosis's and we should all just give up hope because they're sociopaths, take it somewhere else.

Witz, for one thing, you're defining "sociopath" according to your particular view, which is not the same as is widely used; and for another, you are jumping to a conclusion about mrsammler's motives without any evidence. It seems like you're taking some generic remarks and mrsammler's accounts of his experiences with his nephew in a very personal fashion, as though it was meant to be critical and deriding of parents on this board. I didn't take it that way at all, and mrsammler was at some pains to explain more fully, which you seem to have completely disregarded.

 

[CrazyinVA]

I don't believe mrs was drawing any lines between our kids, or inferring that they are in the same class as dangerous sociopaths. His descriptions of sociopaths were from his research, which is solid. He's made it clear that he is in no position to diagnose or judge our kids or our dealings with them. I think he's gone above and beyond in this thread to explain that, and to even apologize to those who thought he was doing otherwise, and I for one sincerely appreciate that. I'm also grateful to have another male voice on these boards.

 

[witzend]

I don't believe mrs was drawing any lines between our kids, or inferring that they are in the same class as dangerous sociopaths. His descriptions of sociopaths were from his research, which is solid. He's made it clear that he is in no position to diagnose or judge our kids or our dealings with them. I think he's gone above and beyond in this thread to explain that, and to even apologize to those who thought he was doing otherwise, and I for one sincerely appreciate that. I'm also grateful to have another male voice on these boards.

Fine. Then why is he HERE talking about sociopaths? What is it that we need to know about sociopaths? Why tell us? Because he thinks we know about sociopaths because our children are sociopaths, and clear Mrsammler has no time or patience for sociopaths. He just wants us to validate that he has given up on his sister's son. Well great for him! But don't expect a sympathetic ear out of me when someone draws a direct line between sociopaths and rapist/murderers.