Siblings acting out sexually?

[klmno]

Welcome, MMouse! I'm sorry to greet you under these circumstances though.

I'm sure I'm not catching all the details but I'm not sure that any more happened between the two of them than the experimenting or looking- whatever it was- at 8/9 yo. I saw the part where your daughter's undies had something on them. It isn't clear to me if it was her's, the bro's, or possibly someone else's. The thought goes through my mind- if it wasn't her's, could she be trying to keep you from finding out that it is someone else's (not bro's)?

I'm not trying to defend the boy just for the sake of it- and I'm sure you have a much better understanding of what has transpired than I do. but, my quick glance thru the thread left me thinking that there are MANY unknowns here.

I sincerely hope that a therapist can help you get to the bottom of it and get things on a better track- soon. If the extent of what they did together was looking or minimal experimenting as young children, I would tend to let that go- but I might be an exception in that area. I just remember that lots of kids did that when I wsa really young. I'm not talking "the sexual act"- I'm talking about playing doctor, wanting to see and giggle, etc. If more has happened with one or both of these kids, then the question is "who has it happened with". Obviously, it is a serious problem if they have continued experimenting with each other, especially at this age. But, I'm still wondering if it is with each other.

 

[witzend]

This really is a difficult subject to talk about succinctly, I guess. I know you don't want to be offensive, and also that there are a lot of answers you don't have. I hope that you will have answers to your questions soon. Be calm. Not sleeping and worrying will not change anything. You are doing the best you can to rectify the situation.

 

[1234567]

I know this is hard to talk about, but there are so many unanswered questions it would make it hard to proceed.

1. What did you find on her underwear? If it was semen, then honestly I have a hard time thinking that sex did not occur. However, I'm not totally sold on the idea that the sex play was consentual at all. While I wouldn't make accusations, I think I might lay low, and not say much other than reaffirming my love for the kids until after the counseling. If the sex play wasn't consentual, and your daughter has been molested, making her feel badly about the situation will just do more damange.

I'm not saying it happened. I hope it DIDN'T happen that way, but I do think you need to be very careful just in CASE it happened that way.

If it was just her discharge on her undies, that is totally and completely normal, and wouldn't necessarily indicate any sex play at all.

2. I know you're sad and disgusted, but you really need to find out more about what they are saying happened, especially before they can get together and get their stories straight. If it was sex play (touching, etc.) from a few years ago, honestly, I'd tell them it wasn't appropriate at ALL, and then drop it. Just not that big of a deal, honestly. If it's continued over years, or involves more than touching, I'd probably pursue therapy.

I guess my point is just be careful making your daughter think she has done something digusting and wrong before you are 100% sure she has been a consentual partner.

 

[everywoman]

As someone who has been there done that, I can tell you that you will get through it. It is not easy. Your life will change for a while. You will have horrible thoughts and images for years to come. But, you will get to a point where it is not an everyday thought. I wish I could tell you that your family will one day be the same. But, they won't. Your children needs to see separate counselors. I would suggest a female for your daughter, so she will be less embarrassed and will possibly open up a little more. in my humble opinion, if your son is older, has been exposed to porn, he is probably the aggressor. I would let them both know that in spite of the situation, that you still love them. I sent my son to a pysch hospital for a while because he was the aggressor in the situation and it did involve manipulation and threats.

 

[MMouse]

Thank you again to everyone who has been such a great support. It seems this went on for years...which again is upsetting. I just really wish our therapy appointment was sooner and we could work some of this out. I go from crying to screaming mad....and this isn't good for my other children, or my marriage. I guess what gets me the most is my daughter doesn't even act differently, still the 'baby'....she's actually acting quite spoiled lately, which is making it harder to keep from yelling at her. I know that yelling isn't making things better...ironically my yelling will probably scar her more than from years of fooling around with her brother.....but still I am just to the point of a major breakdown and don't know where to turn from here.

We only have a 3 bedroom house. The girls shared a room and the boys shared a room. So we've had to turn the house upside down to put a safety plan in place, our adopted children are upset because I'm upset, my ds has been sent home with family and comes to 'visit', but cries when he leaves.....so again, I'm just doing all the wrong things and on a bad road. I can't tell any of my friends or family, as they would pass judgement before even knowing what went on. Friends would think that when their kids spent the night in the past that something happened to them....etc. I feel like I'm wearing a big sign with this around my neck though....and that if my 2 oldest have to go away that people will think I 'lost' my kids....never think that maybe they did something and got taken away. And I can't tell my family.....this would kill my family!!! They thought so highly of these children.

So again, just on a really bad road right now and I just don't see it leading anywhere good....ever

Thanks again everyone!!

 

[klmno]

Ok, if you're sure that they both were equally involved with this, then you are doing all you can. Obviously, it would, and has, caused you to be depressed. Do you have an appointment with a therapist and/or psychiatrist lined up soon? Try to hang in there- this isn't your fault.There will always be a lot of people around who can't understand- try to take comfort in knowing that you are doing the right thing- nobody said the rest of the world had to understand (and they won't) but as bad as it hurts, just keep focusing on what is right for your family.

HUGS!! I'm sorry you are faced with this-

 

[BusynMember]

You don't need to explain anything to anybody, but you need to get to the truth. Whatever happened, it is not your fault. But...

I don't believe that your daughter was a consenting partner in this...if so both kids are very sick and very unusual. I'm guessing that when the truth comes out, and it will likely take years, you will see that your daughter was the victim. If it is not dealt with, the kids can forget the trauma and can act out sexually on others with NO memory that it happened to them. Our adopted son had no memory of being abused, but obviously he was, and he acted out on both of our younger kids and had no idea why. He became dangerous in other ways too. You do not want this to lie dormant.

This is too serious to wait. Call a counselor who is schooled in handling kids who have been sexually inappropriate (I advise two different counselors). Start yesterday. Somebody who is knowledgeable in the field would NEVER make your kids wait.

Please...do not treat your daughter like she did anything wrong or you WILL scar her for life. She and your son already have serious problems. I urge you not to make it worse by judging them before you know the real story. You also need to make sure your younger two were not victims. It will be hard and you will cry a lot and think you can't do it, but if WE got through it (and I'm no rock) anyone can.

You don't know the half of it yet. It takes a long time to get to the truth.

 

[MMouse]

Thank you again. One thing that my ds said is that 'she came to me too' and that he felt guilty everytime and said he was never going to do it again. So again...not sure if he started it by being the aggressor and then she began to seek that affection or attention? But regardless, it looks like over the years it became something of a 'relationship' and that makes it even more difficult to understand.

When we talked to CPS they only gave us 2 therapist in this area....both of them we've seen before and both of them we really don't see as 'sexual' therapist. So how do I find a therapist that has experience in this? We live in a pretty small area, so we're going to have to travel some ways I'd say....but again, in order to get 2 separate therapist that are going to take this as serious as it is, we really need someone that has extensive experience with this, not someone that deals more in ADHD, behavior ODD type of things.

The more we uncover the more we realize that this is a very serious problem and that our future is very uncertain at this point. I'm afraid of letting them continue extra curricular stuff, continuing in their school (which is where my son said he learned about some of these things) and just worried all around about what else will be uncovered.

If anyone has any way of searching for a therapist, please let me know. Thanks!!!

 

[OpenWindow]

Do either of your kids have a diagnosis of any kind? If so, I'd also make sure a therapist was versed in whatever diagnosis they have. If you think they may have ADHD, ODD, or something else, or even if any of your family members do and it may be a possibility, I'd be trying to get those evaluations ASAP too (sometimes these appointments can take 6 months or more). It's not easy, and I don't think it's possible all the time for it to come quickly. We have therapy lined up but the one we has works with DCFS cases, so he has said he can't start therapy until the investigation is over. Since you don't have an investigation pending, maybe yours can be faster.

Every case of sexual abuse is different. They may have been molested by someone else, they may have a disorder that includes hypersexuality as a symptom (and ADHD includes impulsive behavior which may also be connected to something like this). You just never know. My son has always been a little hypersexual, but no one ever thought it was a problem, and surely didn't tell me to keep an eye on him and my daughter 24/7. Because you never know. My difficult child's counselor thinks in his case it was curiosity, coupled with his impulsive behavior, his social awkwardness to even talk to girls his own age, and his misguided attempts to "fit in" with the other boys who do talk about girls a lot. He is 12 but his emotional age is several years younger. If he had been more careful and sneaky, and we didn't catch it when we did, I could see it progressing to where you are.

I think the only way you can find a therapist is to find a local support group that deals with sexual abuse and ask them to recommend someone, or just go through the phone book and ask questions. You may happen to live by someone here who has dealt with this and they can PM you with a therapist they know, if you're comfortable enough to say the general area where you live, even just your state will narrow it down. (Chances are low someone here will live by you who have gone through this and know a good therapist, I'd go with a local support group myself).

I agree that the probability is that your son started it, and then your daughter may have become a more willing partner as things progressed. This even happens with kids who are abused by adults. Don't rule out anything, because you really don't know. They started when they were young, and the more it happened, the harder it was to stop. But they did stop, as far as you know, and it was out of guilt. As terrible as all this is, I think it is a good sign that they stopped on their own.

Right now it seems like the end of the world, but maybe just considering that other people have gotten through this may help. Adults who have had this happen to them have grown up to be happy adults. I was abused by my father, and while it's very hard at times, I don't think about this every day of my life anymore (well, until our latest incident). If I had gotten help from my family when I was young, things would probably be even better. You have to take every precaution and yes, the next few years are going to be hard, but you and your family can get through this. That's how I'm getting through, day by day.

Linda

 

[MMouse]

Thank you Linda. I've called the local rape/incest help line and asked if they could research some therapist names for me, give me some help in finding one that is educated in that aspect of child therapy. Hopefully they'll get back to me.

Funny thing is that we watched so many classes/dvd's...etc and read so many books to know what to look for in our adopted children. They had a predatory older sister and step father, so again, we tried to be so knowledgeable in this for their safety.

We have come to the place that we're not really blaming ourselves anymore though....we are good parents. We went through the proper steps to assure our children's safety and happiness over the past 14 years and it's not due to lack of affection, support or anything else......they made this decision and it wasn't something we did.

If anyone has been through this that lives in TN, AL or GA....we can travel to any of those states to seek help. I just don't want to get them in to a therapist that has no idea on how to handle this and leaves us hanging while they try to figure out what to tell us.

Oh and on the note of any other diagnosis, my son was evaluated for ADHD/ADD years ago and the therapist said he was 'normal' by all means. So again....who knows.

 

[BusynMember]

I'm confused. Were all these kids adopted? The older too also? And they were abused?
A signature is very helpful

 

[MMouse]

I'm confused. Were all these kids adopted? The older too also? And they were abused?
A signature is very helpful

The older two are biological (I think I mentioned that in my first post). I was just mentioning in the last post that we really really thought we were 'up' on this stuff because of all we went through with our adopted children. We knew what they came out of, so we immersed ourselves in classes and books to be sure we knew the signs, symptoms, how to deal with issues that might arise with them and then for our bio children to do it....just a shock.

What is really odd, is that today my daughter was sitting outside talking to me and I asked her if she'd done anything to the little ones, she said no. Then I asked her if she had with any of her friends that have spent the night, or even her cousins that spend the night and she said "gross mom, that's my cousin!!!!". Ummmm, huh? So somewhere something has been crossed that it's not okay with your cousin but fooling around with your brother is acceptable to her.

Anyhow, still trying to just be as normal as possible....we're having someone called out this week to see about building on to the house. This couldn't have come at a worse time financially but what are we going to do....with limited bedrooms there is only so much of a safety plan we can put in place without putting kids all throughout the house.

Thanks for listening.

 

[BusynMember]

I don't believe it is acceptable to her to be with her brother. I think she is being forced. I'm sorry, but that's how it looks and sounds to me.

 

[witzend]

I don't believe that your daughter was a consenting partner in this...if so both kids are very sick and very unusual. I'm guessing that when the truth comes out, and it will likely take years, you will see that your daughter was the victim.

I'm with MWM. There are many reasons why your daughter would lie about her involvement. Protecting her brother, fear of threats made against her or someone/something she loves, fear that it will break your heart, fear that she will be seen only as an incest victim from now on, etc...

It's not at all unusual that a child who is coerced or bullied into incest becomes sexualized over a period of time, and that part of that sexualizaton involves their abuser. I don't think I would wait until a sexual abuse specialist can be found. I would get them and you to see someone ASAP. Have you taken her to her pediatrician? You know that being sexually active she now needs to be examined, right?

by the way, I don't think you ever answered. Why is your daughter in her room all day? Is this what she would normally be doing, or is this a change for her? If it is a change for her, why the change? Your idea or hers? If it's a change, it should be stopped. I know it's hard but she's your daughter, and whatever her role in this was, she shouldn't be made to feel that you are so shocked and disgusted by it that she has to stay in her room to make it easier on you.

 

[MMouse]

I want to once again say thank you for everyone listening to me and giving me your opinions. Sadly right now I'm just not sure about anything though, and assuming things or jumping to conclusions is only making it worse. My daughter has told me as well as the detective that she was not forced, while I don't believe that this is entirely true....I think that over time she began to rely on this, for whatever it was to her.

I know that with our classes and such on this subject we came across a lot of studies where the little girls that were abused by their dads or uncles...etc would seek out other men to put in that position when they were placed in foster care. We actually saw it first hand in the oldest sibling, not with us, the oldest sibling of our adopted children in Residential Treatment Center (RTC). She would have visits with her siblings but always end up trying to sit in the foster father's lap, or telling others that she was going to run away and have sex with her dad...etc. So I know that while it may have started out as forced with my ds and daughter, she's grown to think it's normal and at some point has approached him for this as well.

She normally plays in her room. She has all her toys up there, and her movies, so she normally plays with her sister upstairs in the summer. She sometimes will join us in the family room to watch a movie, or helps me clean the house, fix lunch, swim...etc but she was in her room because she wanted to be. Her sister was not allowed to play in the room though, that was why I felt so awkward that she was up in her room...but at the same time I was glad because her attitude is just so hard to take, as an adult, although I know that she's trying to be as normal as possible and that's probably where that comes from.

Again, I did come here asking for support and I'm glad to have found so many helpful people that haven't been scared away by my frantic posts. I just can not go down that road of assumptions right now, assuming that he forced her and that he was once molested as well....just paints a whole different picture in my mind and brings up more feelings of hurt and not being able to protect her or him from these things. So I think for now I'll try to be as normal as possible in this horrible situation and wait until our appointment this week with the therapist. I've also called in to the counseling center for some more therapist names....hopefully we'll find one that helps us get through this.

 

[Marguerite]

I think your approach for now is good - to just try to be as normal as possible and not pre-judge. It's not easy.

And as for the topic being too much for people here - well, people here have dealt with a very wide range of problems, you are definitely not alone.

One thing that worries me - for the future for your daughter, anyway - if she was uncertain about this but became compliant, and if your son was remorseful each time and said he'd never do it again, and he did - then she needs this therapy to also deal with teaching her that him being remorseful does not make it alright at any time. That attitude of "he said sorry, so it can all be swept away and forgotten" has the potential to make her very vulnerable to an abusive partner in the future. And men who abuse seem to have an almost sixth sense about sniffing out the women they can successfully and repeatedly abuse. Your daughter needs to learn self-respect, self-worth and self-esteem so she can recognise what is acceptable way to be treated and what is NEVER acceptable.

I'm not talking about sex here, I'm talking about abuse of power. And despite this situation of yours involving aspects of sexuality, I think the biggest problems here for her are abuse of power. Any sexual aspects are secondary.

Marg

 

[MMouse]

Marguerite, you don't know how right you are. We've always known she is very very vunerable, and she's always been a magnet for friends at school that 'abuse' her. We've talked to her about it, done everything we know how to as parents, told her that she doesn't deserve friends that make up stories because they know she'll believe them...etc.

Sadly, it hasn't seemed to work. She's came home crying saying that her friends will write her letters telling her that so and so likes her, as a joke. She's given boys 'pencils' to be her boyfriend if/when they break up with other girls. It's really sad what happens, even in elementary this was going on.

She stays nervous, has warts on her hands that embarrass her....but the doctors tell us there is nothing they can do for them other than the freezing we already did and that they'll just have to run their course.

She's never told us that my ds (her brother) was sorry he did it, that's what he voiced to us. That he was always really sick when he did it, and felt bad.....but that she would come to him sometimes too. So again, while he may have been the aggressor in the beginning, she's somehow decided that this is okay and she's seeking something that we're not providing for her.

She's always been a cuddly child, loving and affectionate. She's a lot like me, wears her heart on her sleeve....etc. So again, I'm not a therapist and have no idea why this has went on so long....or why it's become somewhat of a normal thing for them. I have no idea when the last time was, but know it started years ago.

My son told us that he heard of all these sexual things in middle school, but by all accounts....they began this in elementary (8 or 9 years old).....so something isn't adding up.

He knew not to actually have normal sex with her.....so we know that something tells him that is wrong, but again I'm just worried about other types of sex that he may not realize are sex (like a certain former president). I explained to my ds that anal and oral are both SEX, and he needed to realize that. I've asked him if anyone showed him that, or did it to him and he always says no.......it just doesn't make sense.

There will be a long long road of therapy for both of them. And sadly we're just not sure how this will all play out.

 

[Marguerite]

"So again, while he may have been the aggressor in the beginning, she's somehow decided that this is okay and she's seeking something that we're not providing for her."

That's the pattern of how abuse can develop. The trouble can be, when the child begins to feel that they have become a willing participant and therefore equally guilty, they don't realise that in fact that is not the case. It is for these reasons that we do not consider children to be capable of informed consent, at such a young age. Their feelings and emotions can be so easily muddled.

Whether either of the children was controlling the other, or whether they somehow stumbled into this mutually - it isn't good for either of them if they now have loads of guilt for complicity piled on top of "I shouldn't have started this."

However long this was going on for, your daughter sounds like she has gotten into some bad habits emotionally, of trying to curry favour at all costs with people, she desperately wants to be liked and sounds like she will compromise her self-respect to gain affection and what she perceives as friendship. Again, this is independent of sex, but it has now become muddled in with sex just to confuse the issue more.

Being the cuddly child may have made her more vulnerable to this sort of exploitation. We had similar concerns with easy child 2/difficult child 2. KNowing what a cuddlebunny she always has been (to the point of being inappropriate) we were fairly sure that despite anything we could do to prevent, she was likely to be sleeping with her first serious boyfriend. Which she did. While we were concerned for her, we were even more concerned for him, because he didn't have the emotional resilience (which she fortunately has got) to cope with the impact of a beautiful but very sensual girl like this, in his life.
And as we expected - when they broke up, even though he was the one who made the break, it devastated him and took him a couple of years to get over her (if he has - he does have another girlfriend now, but I'm still concerned that he's obsessed with her).

I agree that things aren't exactly adding up. THis isn't the sort of thing kids usually experiment with like this, at such a young age. The hormones of puberty can sometimes trigger experimentation in kids who haven't been taught better or who find it too much fun. But surely not at such a young age? I share your scepticism.

There may not have been anyone to show him anything or do anything to him (or her); but somewhere, somehow, the idea was formed. And the long-term effect is I suspect going to affect both of them. I am especially concerned for the bad patterns your daughter is already in, with her desperation to "buy" friends and the way other kids are abusing her desperation and her naivety. They BOTH need to learn that they are better than that. Both of them. And both of them deserve to be treated better than that as well.

For now - I would be working on self-esteem, with both of them. Learning how to have the courage to do the right thing even if you feel it will make you unpopular. Social stories; discussion; social skills classes. Although the counselling is going to be important and for that there needs to be a certain amount of analysis, from here there also needs to be a strong focus on a fresh start, a new beginning and a GOOD beginning. There are several years of bad emotional habits to unlearn.

Marg

 

[navineja]

You said that you can travel to GA for therapy. I don't how far it is for you to the Atlanta area, but we have had great success with Medlin Treatment Center. They specialize in sexual abuse and trauma cases. I know that MTC has offices in Stockbridge (southeast side of town) and Cartersville (north of town) and I think that there is one more, but I do not know where. When the twins first came to us, we suspected abuse but had to wait for Medicaid (Medicare? whichever it is) to come through. As soon as it did, MTC got the girls in very quickly and we have been going for almost 4 years. I am a bit of a prude about these things, yet I have never felt uncomfortable with any of the staff or the way that they have handled the situations that we have been faced with. Hope this helps.