Update and More Advice Please

Echolette

Well-Known Member
Well, that went well.

That is some beautiful dark humor right there! Is it a little sad that our shared darkness makes me laugh? I hope it helps you as well...

At one point he had to ask the staff to turn the volume down on the phone because I was screaming so loudly.

And this really made me laugh...and kind of admire you!

I don't remember what all I said, but it wouldn't surprise me if the word dumbass came up several times.

It is a good and useful word.

You do not have the foundation to get yourself to Hawaii. You do not have the foundation to get yourself through more than a day at a time. If you have any money in your pocket, you will spend it getting high.

Alb, this quote is really why I am posting on this thread. We never know what of the things we read and see or write and say will make a difference...this one did to me. The clarity of it. The cutting through the gaslighting, and our own entrenched habits of not contradicting other people, or respecting what people say (these last two are NOT useful in talking to Difficult Child's!) . When my son called from jail to tell me that he had decided to forego mental health court and instead stand for a criminal trial, which means he will serve his time and be released as a 23 year old with a felony on his record and no supports to transition into the community BUT THAT HE CAN MAKE IT ON HIS OWN, I had the wherewithall, because of your post, to say..."you are either dangerously deluded or lying to me. I don't know which. YOu haven't been able to make it even with support. If you could do it you would have done it on one of your prior releases. It is very hard and almost impossible to do alone, and you do not have the personal strength or wherewithall at this point in time to do that. This is magical thinking"
And then I cried, which I think softened it up enough to make it sound less like an attack and more like a mother's anguish.
Which it was.
But I'm so glad I didn't play along with him, honor his (dumbass) choices in the same way I would a saner, more accountable person. I feel good that I said the truth. I think he heard it. For a moment.
Sometimes a moment of clarity or a moment of true connection is the best we can hope for.
Thank you for your post, and for giving me the tools I needed to get there.

Echo
 

Albatross

Well-Known Member
When my son called from jail to tell me that he had decided to forego mental health court and instead stand for a criminal trial, which means he will serve his time and be released as a 23 year old with a felony on his record and no supports to transition into the community BUT THAT HE CAN MAKE IT ON HIS OWN,
Oh no, Echo. I'm sorry he is thinking this way.

I hope your words helped him to see himself and his future enough to understand what a mistake that would be.

And then I cried, which I think softened it up enough to make it sound less like an attack and more like a mother's anguish.
Which it was.

Your tempering it with tears made me tear up too. I hope so, so much that the moment he heard you stays in his heart.

The last conversation I had with son degenerated into some unholy name-calling and a full-blown fit when I mentioned the R-word (REHAB).

Being his target doesn't feel right...certainly not good for me, and why have conversations that serve only to agitate?

Blocking him completely doesn't feel right...his addict is the one doing the talking right now, and given his lifestyle, I fear we might never speak again.

I ended up telling him I have faith in him and love him very much but am taking a break from responding for awhile.

I am not sure how I feel about doing that.

Sometimes there is just no good path.
 

SeekingStrength

Well-Known Member
Being his target doesn't feel right...certainly not good for me, and why have conversations that serve only to agitate?

Blocking him completely doesn't feel right...his addict is the one doing the talking right now, and given his lifestyle, I fear we might never speak again.


You will talk again. One day, believe he will be ready for help. Your words to your son were important.. If given another chance, I want to use most of your words!

I'd like to go to Hawaii, also.
 

Albatross

Well-Known Member
I'd like to go to Hawaii, also.
Thank you for grounding me, SS.

It is so easy for me to forget that this whole thing started because I asked him to work a few days of day labor to pay for half of his ticket.

He has abandoned his schemes to secure a ticket to Hawaii to reconnect with the love of his life. Apparently a few days' work was too much trouble.

I will spare everyone the opus detailing the past week, but we have been through cancer, frostbite, shoplifting, joblessness, flu, and bankruptcy, all of which is apparently my fault (and husband's fault collaterally for defending me when son tried to attack me through husband).

I think I have come to the conclusion that my son is just a really mean person.

I think I just don't want to play ball anymore.

If the body doesn't lie, this is the right thing to do. I'm feeling at peace about it.
 

so ready to live

Well-Known Member
Oh Albie, so sorry it's this hard (again).
Apparently a few days' work was too much trouble.
We are always baffled by our son's total belief that it's easier to ask, beg, manipulate, steal and even seek legitimate services over and over rather than work a day. So much energy spent to be still homeless. Someone on this forum once said that being homeless is a lot of work---apparently still better than getting up in the morning? If I had a dime for every time I said "I don't get it", we could have supported him for life.
SS "grounding you" about going to Hawaii is so important. There are many times that either hubs or I forget all that's gone on. Have we blocked it? Is there just so much drama that our brains are overflowing in that area? When one of us can say "but wait, remember we paid this and he did that--we offered this and he didn't follow through", it's strengthening for our resolve. It seems from the outside that it might hurt yet again to remember, but for us it protects our hearts.

I think I just don't want to play ball anymore.
cancer, frostbite, shoplifting, joblessness, flu, and bankruptcy
No wonder you feel done with the game. Take time for you, take joy in your hubs and daughter.
As someone who's been on this roller coaster for half our son's life, my engagement or lack thereof, has made no difference. How much life I have missed due to the pain of it all... Prayers.
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
I read a fascinating book about people who lived under the railroad tracks in New York City. Many had used the electricity down there to build lighted apartments with discarded TVs, microwaves and radios. They had furniture. Obviously they have skills that could serve them well in the real world.

But they chose to live in a dangerous non conventional way where they had to search for food, kill rats for dinner and where many died. The residents were mentally ill and drug addicts with mostly no desire to join a world they felt they didn't fit into and where they'd have to pay for food and board. Hard for most of us to wrap out minds around but they are not us and don't think like us.

Long ago these "mole people" (the name of the book) were chased out. I wonder how they live now.

People do not all believe a warm house, a bed, a job and having to follow rules fit them. Most of us don't get it, but I do. It's a no rules life. They are, in there own way, living rough but completely free.

Being homeless is no picnic. But for some following society's rules is even harder and undesirable.

Homeless people can find shelters but many just don't want to follow shelter rules regarding curfew and drug use or perhaps mandatory religious services.

And we are who we are. And they are what they are.
 

Albatross

Well-Known Member
I have been doing a lot of thinking lately, about the little bits I take from each of you.

I have been thinking about how long we have all been dealing with our difficult children, all the tears and sleepless nights, how many times each of us on Parents Emeritus must have thought, “Well, (s)he will be an adult soon, and then I won’t have to deal with it.” Yet we still are, if not literally, then certainly emotionally.

I have been thinking about how the days and the years go by, and the wise counsel of moms who have earned their wings many times over and look back with sadness at the many missed opportunities for joy.

Some of us strive to maintain and improve relationships with our difficult children, and others have decided it is best to step away. Yet all continue to strive to love more deeply, do what is best for all concerned, and still reach out and help others.

And we all wish we had “gotten it” sooner, had learned to balance the needs of our difficult children with our own needs.

My daughter showed me the Thanksgiving picture of the family and I was smacked in the face with how old I look. Not only how I look, but how I carry myself, how I think, how I approach the world and my place in it.

In so many ways I am beaten down, not solely because of Difficult Child but he plays a huge role. My interactions with him lead me to question my competence in everything I do. Worrying about him costs me joy, focus, energy, health, friends…even something as simple as how I dress. I get my clothes at Goodwill now, not because I need to, not because I like the hunt for buried treasure, but because I think that is all I deserve.

Why do I tolerate it?

Here is the conversation we had last week, which is pretty typical of every conversation we have had since I told him we wouldn’t pay his airfare to Hawaii.

Tuesday: Vague “end-it-all” talk and claims he has nowhere to go due to a situation that arose when he was high on meth. When I suggested rehabs he told me to get the *$&# out of his life, mocked me for being so sensitive when I told him not to talk to me like that, and told me I needed professional help.

Dad messaged him saying, “You owe Albatross an apology. She is my wife and I love her and she certainly doesn’t deserve you talking to her like that.”

Tuesday night: Apology to me with continued hopelessness, says he wants to go to rehab but only in Hawaii, he would rather die if he can’t go now, etc., then abruptly “a friend wants to take me out for a burrito brb.”

Calling him on walking away from the conversation for a burrito triggered “how dare you,” “what a mother you are,” “done with you forever,” etc.

Wednesday: Apology with how terrific everything would be in HI if only he can get there now. Telling him we won’t pay for a ticket to Hawaii triggers telling me he doesn’t need rehab because alcohol is as bad as any other drug he can do, which he knows because the rehabs we sent him to are what turned him onto other drugs.

Thursday: Apology with request for last 4 digits of an old credit card number he needs to reactivate his video game account. Telling him I no longer have that card triggers accusing me of lying about not having the information and “what a mother you are, and thanks for depriving me of the only wealth I’ve ever had.”

Thursday night: Messages husband the next day that he has a good job available “now that my piss is clean” but doesn’t have a phone to get the calls. Dad agrees to get him a pay-as-you-go phone for a month to get him started. Two hours later son posts on Facebook that someone gifted him with a bag of weed. Dad calls him on smoking weed given the good job offer and son messages back “I couldn’t take the job anyway, it is cold outside and I didn’t have the heart to tell YOUR WIFE ALBATROSS that she sent me 2 right-handed gloves.” (I sent him gloves in September.) I messaged him that I thought the “your wife” comment was a cheap shot, triggering “when you stop dishing it out I’ll stop serving it back.”

And this is how it goes, not every time but certainly enough to have taken a heavy toll, enough to leave me feeling gaslighted, abused, confused, and tearful, ruminating afterward for days.

I am slowly killing myself over someone who ranks me somewhere below a plane ticket, video games, and burritos.

It is OK that he thinks of me like that -- I know I can't change that.

But how do I stop destroying myself over it, feeling so despicable and unworthy for failing to have the relationship I *think* we *should* have?

I don’t know how else to put it, but I need to find my strength again.

How do I do that?

When is it OK to say, “I just don’t want to do this anymore” and break off contact?
 

ksm

Well-Known Member
When is it ok to say enough is enough? Today is a good day...tomorrow is good too. But don't do it rudely. Just say I am tired of this...I want things to be different...but I want you to be happy, too. I can't control you or what happens to you, so I wish you well, and when we are both in a better place we can talk again. I will love and pray for you and I hope you can do the same for me.

KSM
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
I did it by grieving when my one son left us. I got professional help to learn coping skills. I can't write much now because I have my kids on the way but will try to think later. I am in an extremely good place.

I don't miss being abused. I am very focused on positivity and living life in a high spiritual vibration (look it up if interested). I feel great most of the time. My kids don't define me not can Gone Boy or oldest son treat me badly any more. I'd rather not talk to him at all than let him surround me with negative energy.

He has been much nicer because he knows that this time when I say no more I mean no more. They have to believe us.
 

Albatross

Well-Known Member
KSM, thank you. That captures exactly what I want to say. SWOT, thank you. What you said about letting our kids define us makes sense to me.
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
Letting anyone else define us makes for a horrible life, dependent on how we judge the person's plight that we
picked to own our soul. Even a mother and her beloved child can not live for the other. Grieving is not fun but it allows us to move on. I don't believe we were meant to teach our kids their entire lives how they should behave. If we were meant to do that then it would work. It doesn't.

Another thing I let go of was anger at my grown kids. I understand Gone Boy and his inability to bond since he did not join our family until he was six. I understand that oldest son is who he is largely due to his inherited temperament. What someone else does doesn't taint me or make me better.

I hope your Christmas was good. Mine was. I have learned not to over value holidays. That's another lesson learned.
 
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toughlovin

Well-Known Member
I do think getting support from other parents with similar issues really helps. I think realizing that they have their own journey and they need to figure it out helps. And even if you dont want to cut off all contact, stopping the conversation when it gets abusive towards you in any way (so calling you names, telling you you are not a good mother etc). So when that starts up saying I am not going to go there and hang up. Dont answer right away when he calls back. You can make a decision that you dont want to hear that stuff.

And then it is about finding things in your life that make you happy... that you like to do. Buliding a life for you.

This has been a tough holiday in some ways because my son is really struggling and is very depressed... so he did not join us for dinner last night, and he does not even want to open presents today! And yet I still enjoyed dinner with the friends who came over last night (while my son stayed in his rooom). I enjoyed going out and spending time with my daughter even though my son was home. I enjoyed exchanging gifts with my husband when we got home and I will enjoy my evening.

Yes I am worried and sad for my son. It kind of breaks my heart to see him hurting so badly.... but I am not letting it take over my being, my day, my well being.

Now I will say this has not always been the case... there have been times not he past where it did. But I am no longer willing to let that happen.
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
Trust me, same here. But as time passed and my worrying changed nothing, I couldn't let down my other loved ones by living my life to worry about my son. Last of all did I realize that I mattered.

I can't take back what I learned. It was a work in progress but I am teachable. I am grateful that I can continue to change for the better and realize that my happiness is dependent on myself, nobody else.

Everyone has blessings. They just need to focus on them rather than on the potential heartache. Jmo.
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
I was smacked in the face with how old I look.
Me, too.
In so many ways I am beaten down
Me too.
Worrying about him costs me joy, focus, energy, health, friends…even something as simple as how I dress. I get my clothes at Goodwill now,
Me, too.
I get my clothes at Goodwill now, not because I need to, not because I like the hunt for buried treasure, but because I think that is all I deserve.
Me too, something similar.

I wear one outfit. One shirt, one pants, one sweater. One shoes.

All of it, me too.
how do I stop destroying myself over it, feeling so despicable and unworthy for failing
I wrote today, that I realized that on some level I must be complying with my son--that because he cannot get it together, I do not permit myself to do so either.

But the problem is that this means I am living out my life inauthentically living as if somebody would want me to, to protect them, to protect myself, I am not living as my real self.

The three years plus following my mother's death, in bed, giving up, self-denial, even more self-erasure, had to have been as much for my son, the inability to allow myself a life or more the willful self-denial of a life.

I have had this glimmer of truth before about my son, but never, ever so clearly.

I would never have thought that I would be somebody who would allow themselves to be defeated by life. Perhaps in the course of doing battle, but never laying down and dying in the road. I keep waiting for the resurrection that never comes. Because I do not allow it.

I am doing the same thing as does my son. Who cannot come to grips, it seems with his life story. I cannot, it seems, come to grips with my own, because I tether myself psychologically to my child--as long as he cannot thrive as I define thriving, and need him to thrive.

So, Albatross. I am in your club, too. But I want out.
I need to find my strength again.
I have begun to think of myself more and more as a wounded person, an ill person, a person afflicted by serious and perhaps progressive and mortal disease.

This metaphor (truth) can be potentially useful, because if I have an illness, a soul sickness, there can be a path to recovery. Actually, I wrote a 300 page treatise on this 25 years ago based upon the study of other women...

I have asked myself, why cannot you employ what you wrote, the mechanism you identified as the progression of recovery? A year ago, two years ago, and three, I do not remember--I asked myself that. And I gave myself permission to do just that: to follow the steps of recovery that I my very self, had identified. No go.

I am wondering if the answer is not what you wrote: that I will not permit myself to recover as long as my child will not.

For me CD exists for this: to recover myself. Not in the main about my child's welfare, or change, or detachment or connection, but to recover myself. To individuate, to separate myself sufficiently to stand alone. While I may say it is my son who needs to do so, it is really me who is the patient here.

I do not need my son to do one thing, to change. It is myself over whom I have near complete control who must do so.

Thank you Albatross for your poignant and very important words.
 
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recoveringenabler

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Oh Albatross, your post brought me back to a few years ago when I could have written (and probably did) a very similar story. My heart hurts for you...... I'm sorry, I do know how hard all of this is.....

In so many ways I am beaten down, not solely because of Difficult Child but he plays a huge role. My interactions with him lead me to question my competence in everything I do. Worrying about him costs me joy, focus, energy, health, friends…

That is how I felt before I entered that Codependency course. One of the first things they told us, at the very first group, was that most of us landed there because our lives had become completely out of control because of the actions, behaviors and choices of someone else. The level of devastation and misery in that initial group was enormous....... all of us felt exactly how you describe. For me, it had become necessary to place myself in a completely different environment, put aside whatever resistance I was feeling and begin to open up to an entirely new way of thinking and responding. The course was actually 2 phases which lasted about a year, but I stayed on for close to 2 years because I was in fact learning and changing and I could see progress in myself because I began to feel so much better. As a result of the new tools I was learning and the continuing support to use those new tools, as I've said many times on this board.....my entire life changed for the (WAY) better.

I don't think most of us have any way of being prepared for this path with our kids. To learn how to be okay in the face of our precious children's terrible choices and behaviors is clearly the most difficult thing any of us can do. Every week for 2 years I was able to voice my concerns, my fears, my resistance, my anger, my resentments, my grief, all of it in a safe and caring group of others who were in the same boat, with therapists trained in Substance abuse, mental illness and codependency........and that began to shift my own belief system about what the "right" thing to do was. I was very resistant to detaching and letting go, it appeared to me that that was the furthest thing from love......and yet......I observed the changes others were making and how much better they were feeling about themselves and their situations......so I listened and tried to keep an open mind.

enough to have taken a heavy toll, enough to leave me feeling gaslighted, abused, confused, and tearful, ruminating afterward for days.

I often highly recommend folks here find professional support on this journey because for me, it took outside help for me to not only see my own behavior and how that was keeping me stuck, but to learn where that behavior came from and how I could change it. That heavy toll you speak of really just became too heavy for me to cope with......my life was suffering greatly....something had to change......I thought it would be my daughter.........but it was me.

I don't think it matters where you seek help, just that you seek it. Someplace where you can look at yourself truthfully, look at the situation truthfully, to take our outdated beliefs and resistances, look at them squarely and say to ourselves, "so how is that working for you?" If it is not working, then it needs to change.

But how do I stop destroying myself over it, feeling so despicable and unworthy for failing to have the relationship I *think* we *should* have?

I don’t know how else to put it, but I need to find my strength again.

How do I do that?

I am very focused on positivity and living life in a high spiritual vibration (look it up if interested).

This is very similar to how I frame it. Like SWOT, I see life as opportunities for growth, learning, awareness and healing. My daughter's lifestyle presented me with the greatest opportunity of my life........how I ultimately began to feel was that this was a spiritual path about learning acceptance.......and love. Acceptance and love first of myself and then acceptance and a different way of loving my daughter. It was a process. I had to relearn a lot. I had to try to remain open to much that I found abhorrent initially. The whole thing disrupted my beliefs about being a mother, about love, about my role with myself, about my own lack of worth and how much that rested on what I did and what I gave, as opposed to who I am in the deepest core of me. It often felt as if I was changing my DNA.......as if the very root of me was dissolving and the constellation of beliefs built on that root were tumbling down.......and I was building new beliefs that in fact were much more in alignment with who I am. I began to see how much I resisted reality, how much I railed against what I couldn't control and the absolute, stunning misery that brought me.

I've said on this board quite a number of times over the years that I see this path we are all on as the PHD program for one of the hardest things I think we humans have to learn........acceptance. As the Serenity prayer says so succinctly....."God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference." What happened for me is that I made my largest intention, my biggest prayer, my deepest desire and my main commitment, to be for that serenity, or for me, it was the phrase, peace of mind.......peace of mind was what I was after. It ceased to be about my daughter, it was about me and how I could obtain that peace.

My belief is that what we focus on not only expands and continues, but becomes our life. As SWOT mentioned about raising the vibration, I made a conscious effort to put my attention on positive things, on love, on gratitude, appreciation, on meditation, on whatever brought me joy. I had been focusing almost entirely on my daughter's life and what I could do to help her. When I changed that focus, when I placed it on myself and finding peace of mind, new opportunities began to show up. That codependency course appeared out of nowhere. I began reading spiritually based books by Pema Chodron, Eckhart Tolle, Deepak Chopra.......many of which I had already read, but now I was understanding from a different vantage point, the intention was not about how I could help my daughter, but how I could love myself enough to learn how to make my life peaceful, meaningful and fulfilled. It was in essence a perceptual shift which shifted my focus and ultimately shifted everything.

I don't know if this is helpful Albatross, it is my journey through this forrest of fear, it is my point of view.......not the "right" way or the only way, simply my way......if you haven't sought support you might consider that now. I have found that when we reach the low point you find yourself at, it is often the turnaround point for us......when we just can't go further down the road we're on, when we must find a new road to discover a new perspective, a new focus, a new way of thinking and feeling. It may represent a new beginning for you......I so hope that is true for you......I'm sending every bit of strength and love I can muster to you......with prayers and wishes for you to find yourself, for you to look beneath the present circumstances and find YOU, the YOU which shines brilliantly no matter what is going on in your life.
 
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BusynMember

Well-Known Member
RE, we are so alike. Both of us aren't kids yet we changed, which means age is no factor in changing to a life of positivity. You simply need to reach out and try better, more healthy ways of thinking.

RE, you always explained things we both do so much better than me.
 

recoveringenabler

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Thank you SWOT, yes, you and I have been traveling a very similar path for a long time. I am most appreciative for your support and your wisdom. I don't feel I explain anything "better" .........we do it differently, which is perfect because we members here hear things differently. Your words are a cushion for us "old" members and a lifesaver for "newbies".........and you've hung in there just to help......thanks so much for that SWOT.....and may the force (love) be with you!!! :love_heart:
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
I wonder if a sticky.positive post would help the people who truly want a way out. I say "want a way out" because, looking back, I believe I did not always want a way out. Things were not perfect for me and I would pout and stay depressed just like a Difficult Child. After all, did I deserve to be happy if even one of my kids was not?

I'm glad I was lucky enough to find my way out of that abyss. Positivity was so foreign to me then, as was acceptance, living in the moment, peace, serenity, higher self...I was on a pity trip of my own doing.

Posters like you inspired me to find a better way. It is so cool that our lives are now so good even though things still aren't perfect with our adult kids.

I have always valued your wisdom and always will. Good for us!!!
 

Albatross

Well-Known Member
Wow. Thank you so much, ladies. I wasn't sure whether to even post that yesterday, but now I am so glad that I did.

I am wondering if the answer is not what you wrote: that I will not permit myself to recover as long as my child will not.
I say "want a way out" because, looking back, I believe I did not always want a way out. Things were not perfect for me and I would pout and stay depressed just like a Difficult Child. After all, did I deserve to be happy if even one of my kids was not?
To learn how to be okay in the face of our precious children's terrible choices and behaviors is clearly the most difficult thing any of us can do.
Yep. This is me. Wow.

We hurt when they hurt and we can't control that, but at some point I crossed over into beating myself up for not being god-like enough in my motherly powers.

I have about a thousand things to say, but I think I am just going to let all of this gel for a bit.

RE, thank you so much for expanding on your journey. It was indeed helpful to me, so very helpful. Thank you so much for sharing that with me.

So, Albatross. I am in your club, too. But I want out.

I want out too, Copa.

RE, I will definitely be checking out some resources for getting some outside support.

But I also think a lot of parents would pay good money for the shared wisdom around this place, and the money would be very well spent.

Thank you again, ladies. I am so very, very fortunate to know each of you and walk this path with you.
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
I want out too, Copa.
When I identified stages in women's recover, after the crisis stage and whatever came before it, ta da, came "letting go."

That is the step I have never allowed myself to get past.

All those years ago, do you think I discovered "detachment" somehow anticipating my very life, and the great need I would have 35 years later? Yet be unable to embrace?

Shame or hubris? She discovered detachment, yet lacked the integrity or strength to employ it in her own life.

Because to not fall on one's sword is the REAL courage.

Here we have been, each of us, believing somewhere in us, (I think it is genetic, a built in mechanism so that we do not abandon our babies.) that we are saving our families as we heroically go to battle to protect our 30 year old, 40 year old babies--our fight, our enemies, ourselves.
 
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