Update: The waters of de Nile are calm.

AppleCori

Well-Known Member
Lil,

I feel for you. This is SO hard!

My mommy heart says let him work for the court cost $ by doing yard work/chores with a good attitude at less than minimum wage.

I mean, you said you could use the help. So it wouldn't be 'charity' or bailing him out, exactly. It would be paid work.

My mind says to let hubby make the decision, though.

Cause we mommies think with our hearts.

On the bright side, he is concerned about the court fees (and staying out of jail)!

Geez the whole living with girlfriend and her hubby is not working out long-term? What a surprise. NOT!

Why is it that difficult child s can never just do something the normal way like the rest of us!

As for living with grandparents...there are worse things in life that having to go to church every once in a while...like homelessness.

With his propensity for theft, however, not sure I would allow him to potentially take advantage of them.

I know the feeling of making suggestion after suggestion and they reject every one.

Maybe the job will come through and he will have the rent for next month! There is hope!
 

Lil

Well-Known Member
As for living with grandparents...there are worse things in life that having to go to church every once in a while...like homelessness.

With his propensity for theft, however, not sure I would allow him to potentially take advantage of them.

Pretty sure that if he were to steal from his grandparents, I'd be bailing Jabber out of jail. Hopefully, he'll never ask them. What I actually said to him was something like, "Your only relatives that might take you in is grandma and grandpa, but you wouldn't do well there since they'd expect you to go to church and behave the way they want you to."

My mommy heart says let him work for the court cost $ by doing yard work/chores with a good attitude at less than minimum wage.

I mean, you said you could use the help. So it wouldn't be 'charity' or bailing him out, exactly. It would be paid work.

Yes...I agree. That's my thought. It needs done. We could use help. Not like we'd pay him week after week. It's a one-time deal.

He's already posted on Facebook that he is considering going to Chicago and he's had more responses...positive ones...than he's had on any post to FB he's done since he get internet access again. But, in the end, it's totally up to him. We shall see.
 

Jabberwockey

Well-Known Member
As for living with grandparents...there are worse things in life that having to go to church every once in a while...like homelessness.

With his propensity for theft, however, not sure I would allow him to potentially take advantage of them.

My mom and dad are retired so it wouldnt just be church on Sunday morning. It would also be Sunday evening, Wednesday evening, and every time they went to help a the shelter, and every time....well, you get the point! As to the possible stealing from them, they dont have much that he could pawn, there is only one pawn store in town, and they live outside of town. It would be a bit difficult for him to do and easy for them to catch and get stuff back.
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
Hi Lil
I'm inclined to make him come mow our yard and do some other work and pay the darn things. Jabber is thinking about it. My first instinct is to say yes. His is to say no. I don't know. We probably should say no. I don't want to though...and we really could use help with the yard work.
We are beginning to believe that all of our little helping, to my son, is interpreted as soft and weak, and is just as damaging as helping in a big way; that there really are no shades of gray in this enterprise. We are moving towards tight boundaries.

With my son it is always, give an inch take a mile. The recent example is the trip to Costco to buy ONLY cans of mackerel and eggs MOM. I looked down at the cart and saw Wild Caught Salmon Fillets and saw the error of my ways...too late. (But the salmon was GONE out of that cart). I am coming to see that in our case it has to be 100 per cent, you are on your own, son.

Your son has known about those court costs. You have done 100 percent to prompt him to deal with them. That he would choose to put his welfare into the hands of that nice lady...is so sad and painful....but that in fact was his choice, not yours.
Job Corps was discussed once and he said he'd heard they were "too strict" like a prison and he wouldn't do it.
We did Job Corps when my son was 18. He hated it but did complete the program because this was the only condition under which he could come home. Looking back, I wished I had not let him come home. Those 3 extra years at home changed nothing, just reinforced negative behaviors.

I am now seeing that to have insisted on his going or staying (to Job Corps or anywhere else)...was not my call to make. My only call was about his staying in my home, the conditions, the extent and nature of our contact and help. It's their choice. If it is too strict, don't go. If it is worth it, you go. You decide. It's your life. Your consequences.
"it's the only choice I've got" and "it's my last chance".
My son at any crossroads *usually when somebody has slammed the door in his face, expresses this lament, "I have lost everything, Mom. I have no more chances." But does he take responsibility for same? No. Unfortunately, people in his life have frequently relented...(including me) making the process more difficult for all.

He was rejected last week by the father of a long time friend...who told my son that never in his life will he change his mind...about allowing my son back in the circle of the family....and then relented 3 days later...resulting in my son deciding to move to that town (again.) Last night when he called I asked when he was thinking about leaving for there. His answer floored me.

He said he is not going this month because he has a lot of traveling he must do naming numerous remote locations in our state.

My son is a conspiracy theorist. He believes that recent world events are leading to an apocalypse (he mocks religion so the religious tone is interesting.) I did not ask questions, but it seems that he is now seeking to join a community of like minded souls to prepare for the end times. Not knowing what to say I used my Mother's oft used phrase, you know best and got off the phone.

I was filled with dread about the dangers of such thinking and actions --paramilitary types and how in his innocence he could be victimized. M was equally worried but more about my son's mouth. My son seeks to dominate a group with his mouth, and his oft used strategy is to call the police to rat. Great. M says, what end times group will accept him...he is lazy...messy and wants to be the boss?

I have spent the morning reading old threads about members' children who were in crisis--worse that what I am now facing.

I realize there is nothing I can do if he chooses to do such a stupid and dangerous thing...but I am torn about how to respond.

Cedar speaks about speaking the truth to our children. I am trying to come up with a way that voices my understanding of the potential dangers, but shows my faith that he can make good choices.

You and others have written about the momentary impulses of Difficult Child...that pass...So,to overreact to this latest scary plan...that may or may not pass...seems a mistake.

But I see him walking off a cliff. What's next?

These phone calls I cannot take anymore...they...so deplete me. I want the conversations to stop. I feel like telling him...let's have a time out for 2 months kind of like the old Deborah Kerr movie An Affair to Remember where the couple in the shipboard romance agrees to meet in 6 months...(and she gets hit by a car...)

I think I will only say to my son something like what follows:

I know that the traveling will be a big undertaking ...new people and places......with much to evaluate.. .and respond to...and potentially danger ...you know that I would not have made the choice...but respect your right to do so...and respect your commitment to take responsibility for the consequences whatever they will be...for your beliefs....my responses will not be helpful during this period...so let us talk in a month...I love you.

What do you think? Is it a cop out? Is it abandonment or detachment? Am I telling enough of the truth? Can I survive it? What is my alternative?
 
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Lil

Well-Known Member
What do you think? Is it a cop out? Is it abandonment? Is it a life? Can I survive it? What is my alternative?

Oh Copa...once again I am reminded of how much worse things could be. My son is also on the edge of being a conspiracy theorist. More than once I've joked about giving him tinfoil to make a hat. He distrusts the government...talks about the bad in the world. But to travel around and actually get involved? No. I think mine is too lazy.

Though today he did mention getting some money to go to internet friends of his in other states. All I said is, "These aren't people you actually know. I have Facebook friends I've never met and someday I might meet them, but I'd certainly not go there and expect them to put me up just because they said they would."

As for your question...no, I don't think it's a cop-out and certainly not abandonment. Others here have gone "no-contact" or "low-contact" with their kids. I can see where these things wear at you. They do me too. Everything you have written is true. He will do what he wants and you can't change it. If he needs you, as in a true emergency, he will call regardless of what you say.

I just really want a quasi-responsible and somewhat content son. I don't expect what him to be perfect, just get a job, pay his bills.

Truly, I feel his biggest problem has something to do with being such a lonely, lost person. He really does crave friends and attention and he doesn't have any really. I'm sure that is in large part his doing. He chose to have unreliable "friends" and the decent friends he had backed off. Nothing I can do about that but it hurts.

I don't know about the money. I know we said we wouldn't pay it. I didn't say we wouldn't give him a short-term job to earn it. I don't know. I don't want him in jail over $30.

If he wants job corps...I'd like him to try it. It's not prison. He can always quit if he hates it. But if he really does try...it could be good for him. He has his diploma, this would be for a trade. He wouldn't come home afterward. Frankly, I hope he never returns to this town, except to see us. I hate feeling that way...but there's really nothing here for him.
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
Lil, you are nicer than me. I am inclined to tell kids who won't do anything except "hang out" that of course they have no friends. People make friends in college or at work or else they attract losers and that I can't be a friend, I'm a mom.

I am inclined to agree with Jabber. Is he looking for a job? Would you pay anybody but your son a big $30 to cut your lawn? You can always hire some middle school kid to do the job enthusiastically and for $10. I'm tough on them when they won't help themselves and very helpful when they do help themselves, such as look for work.

I think the more you see him, the more he will work on you to come back home. I think it could cause you stress and not do him one bit of good. Instead of trying to think of ways to straighten out his life, he'll be thinking of how to make you feel bad enough for him that he can live at home again doing nothing with his life. I look at Child of Mine's son...took him until 25, but he is turning it around because she lived by Al-Anon rules. I deeply commend her for refusing to enable him. What about Nancy's child? She finally got it and is growing up. But she also had the money train cut off. Look at Patriot's Girl...she has turned her life around on her own without any help from her parents. WE DO NOT HELP THEM WHEN WE HAND THEM MONEY. To me, t hat is the worst thing we can do. I've been on the board for a long time and progess doesn't happen when we keep giving in. You said no more money. NO MORE MONEY.

Again, that is just my opinion. I found it worked well to do the total mnoey cut off with my daughter. She got a job right away. It can take longer. But longer is better than never.

Some of our grown kids eventaully make positive changes in their 20's. You really don't want it to drag out for too long. The earlier the better. Some of our grown kids are in their 30's. Is there an age where it is less likely to et better? I think so. Your son is young and I'd want him to get the message NOW...Mom and Dad are not The Bank, for ANY reason. If you don't pay want to bet he finds somebody to give him $30? They are resourceful. If not, well, let him pay the consequences. That is honestly the only way they learn.

At any rate, I hope he finds his own $30 and lets you have some fun and peaceful times. I hear it's getting hot in Missouri. That's my son talking. He's from Chicago so to him (and us) 80 is hot and I hear it's warmer than that. But I also hear from him that Missourians are really happy during the summer and love the outdoors. Enjoy, enjoy, enjoy! Turn off the phone. There is nothing that can't wait if you put some "alone" time together and hang around together enjoying a nice walk in your beautiful state.
 

Lil

Well-Known Member
Is he looking for a job? Would you pay anybody but your son a big $30 to cut your lawn?

Actually, he's pretty sure he'll get the one he interviewed for last Monday. But he won't get paid in time. And yes. In fact last week we were going to ask the neighbor boy to mow for $20. Kid's must be cheaper where you live. :) Most services charge $40. And there are more chores than just mowing.

I hear it's getting hot in Missouri.

Yes...and our AC is still not installed. lol... I actually prefer the cold. I hate summer and our spring is not long enough. I would be happy if it never got under 20 or over 80.
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
What do you think? Is it a cop out? Is it abandonment or detachment? Am I telling enough of the truth? Can I survive it? What is my alternative?
From experience, I don't think talking to him will do anything except make you more stressed out. These kids do what they decide to do and defy risks (some like the risks) and your son is 26. He is not going to listen to your warnings. He probably already knows anything you will tell him, might even get MORE determined to do it. I have learned that "less is more." I actually do not give concrete advice or warnings to any of my adult kids. It is none of my business and legally t here is nothing I can do.

I cut crazy talk short (fortunately haven't had any in a while) and often just go "Yep" or "Whatever you want to do" "It's your choice and responsibility what you do" "Ok" "I have to walk the dog" "I will talk to you later. Right now I have company." I don't give advice at all unless it is specifically asked for and during those times I try very hard to be gentle with th e advice. Even our well adjusted grown kids don't want Mom telling them what to do. All of my kids, at one time, have said things that I found outrageous and I just go along with it because it wont' stop them and it's none of my business and I don't want them to feel rebellious.

Good luck. I know it's hard for you to talk to son. Maybe go low contact now and stop asking him about his plans or his life. Just limit talk to the weather and benign topics and to only a few minutes. Then you can gently say you have to see somebody now so you have to go and tell him you love him. Don't read texts either until you are feeling very strong and answer with one or two words. "That's nice." "I see." You don't even have to really read them. Take good care of YOU. I think you get it, it's just hard to do it, but you can get used to doing it too.
 

AppleCori

Well-Known Member
$30 is a very reasonable price to pay to have your lawn mowed, edged, bushes trimmed, sidewalks swept etc. Then maybe throw in a few other chores, 4 to 6 hours worth of work altogether, sounds like quite a deal. For you guys, not your difficult child.

I have never been averse to allowing a young person do chores for money that I wanted to pay someone else to do anyway.
 

Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
Why does the landlady call you about what your son does?

I think she calls them because she knows they are on the lease until June.

Today I have a vague sense of impending doom.

These were the kinds of feelings I would work on in my effort to detach from the emotions. Once the feelings snowball, I cannot think my way through it. I get popped into "numb". If I can get a handle on my own emotional response right at the beginning, I have a kind of a baseline to try to get back to.

It's like a controlled nuclear reaction.

I can care for myself as I go through whatever it is.

That is what I mean when I write that for me, detachment parenting is about detaching from my own emotional responses.

I need my tranquil float trip down that long river back.

Remember that movie, The African Queen? Where Katherine Hepburn and Spencer Tracy (?) meet all kinds of unexpected challenges floating down the river and even, fall in love, but do not compromise their essential values?

That might be a good imagery for you and Jabber, Lil.

More support for not answering the phone and letting all calls go to voice mail when you need to

I think letting the machine get it teaches the kids that they can handle it without us.

That's what we are after, here. For the kids to pick themselves up, and to have confidence in their ability to do that.

Maybe you could have a rule, with yourself, to call him regarding the call he made to you, the next day.

Don't listen to the call, first.

Even if you do, no calling him back until the next day. And no letting him know you listened to the message.

You trust him to handle it, whatever it is.

Two hours later I texted we were free and his response was, "Never mind. I worked it out."

Yay! Times like that would be good times to say something like, "I knew you could do it. Just checking to be sure you are good and all is well. Proud of you for handling it on your own."

They don't need to know what it costs us to wait. All they need to know is that we believe they can handle anything that comes up, and that we are proud of them when they do.

Jabber is thinking about it. My first instinct is to say yes. His is to say no. I don't know. We probably should say no. I don't want to though...and we really could use help with the yard work.

Jabber is right, Lil. This is a lesson for your son. It has nothing to do with yard work. If you give him the money, then just give him the money.

There is no harm in it, as long as you remember you are doing it for you, not him.

Keep it nice and clean.

The yard work is a whole separate thing.

Secretly? I don't recommend it. We are getting too close to June.

After discussion, my son says he'll talk to the Job Corps office on Monday.

You need to leave it there, Lil.

Let go.

Unfortunately he said, "it's the only choice I've got" and "it's my last chance"...he also changed up to "it's a chance to start over again in a whole new place" when advised that if he goes into it like that he'll hate it and fail. His attitude leaves a lot be be desired.

His attitude does leave a lot to be desired.

But there is no one in all the world who can change that but him.

The hardest part of these talks are his, "I don't have anyone else to talk to", "I hate myself", "I just want to spend some time with you and talk to you...and be your son", "I don't have any friends", "I try to make friends but no one will talk to me". It literally breaks my heart.

Recovering Enabler pointed out to me once that my daughter was using my pain, was intentionally traumatizing me with the horrific details of how and what and why, was intentionally pushing me into that shocky place where I cannot think, to get what she wanted.

She was correct, Lil.

It is circular thinking and circular reasoning and they do it because it works.

And they hurt us to do it, because hurting us works. They must believe we are very strong.

It is very hard to stick to your guns but it is my experience that letting them feel the natural consequences of their own choices is the only way for change to have a chance.

It is a very hard thing to back away from the parenting role. It is personally hard. It is hard on our self images, it devastates our self concepts. Especially if we are generous or kind, it is so hard to turn away. It helped us to remember the ultimate goal was to strengthen the kids.

For us, for now, it seems to be having that effect.

Like COM, I will add "Hang in there, Lil.", too. None of this is easy. All of this ~ learning why to change our responses, learning how to survive when we know our children suffer and it would be so simple to help ~ all of it takes time. Especially at first, we are flying by the seat of our pants and I cannot think of a better way to describe what it feels like than that.

Flying by the seats of our pants with our hearts in our throats, maybe.

It is so important that they stop doing what they do. There is so incredibly much at stake.

Cedar
 

Lil

Well-Known Member
I think she calls them because she knows they are on the lease until June.

That wasn't me. Our landlord doesn't call us.

So...

After he thought on it, this morning Jabber said okay. So...I texted him this morning and told him we wouldn't give him the $30, but we'd let him earn it by coming over today and do yard work, etc., that we were going to be in church and would contact him after noon. Three missed calls later (my ringer was off) I see a voice mail. He basically starts with my offer being "eff'd up", he didn't know how to talk to a prosecutor himself (don't know where that came from, I get the impression he doesn't want to do the community service) and basically it was he didn't want to do any effing yard work...he thought it would be a "nice gesture" for us to loan him the money.

I went into an empty room. I called him. He answered and I said, "Fine. Go to jail then. We're not giving you the money." He started in swearing again about being woken up by that effing woman and I said, "I'm hanging up, turning off my phone and telling Dad to turn his off. Don't you dare call the church." He hung up before I got all that out.

He actually showed up at church and Jabber told him to leave. Thank God I was off having a mini-meltdown in a classroom and didn't see him.
I'm embarrassed enough to know he showed up in front of everyone there.

So...then I sent him a long text that basically said, 1) talk to the prosecutor in court, call the clerk and ask when. 2) we don't want to see or talk to him today. Maybe tomorrow, if he can show some respect. 3) he still has an apartment, even if he doesn't have power, he can still sleep and bathe (hot water is provided by the landlord), and 4) I still love him.

He had the nerve to text back and ask if he could still come for Game of Thrones. I texted back, "We'll record it."

So...there it is. He blew it. We aren't giving him the $30. At the moment I can't imagine relenting and letting him earn it. Maybe he'll go to jail. Maybe he'll convince the PA and judge to give him more time. Don't know.
 

pasajes4

Well-Known Member
He is showing you who he truly is. You offered him an honorable way to solve his problem. He responded by rejecting your offer and in the process disrespecting you. He was willing to live in a sketchy situation with some morally corrupt individuals because he could live the way he wanted with little to no effort on his part.

Lil, You do not deserve his disrespect.
 

in a daze

Well-Known Member
Oh wow.
I would either be really mad, or a quivering mess. Probably both.
We are here to support you as you stand your ground.
Order your favorite food and have an adult beverage tonight while you watch your show. Be very good to yourselves as you go through this drama with difficult child.
 
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