17 yr old son doing drugs, hanging w members of a gang in NY

[BusynMember]

D C, do not believe that diagnosis. It doesn't help you or your child. See what happens. Drugs do horrible things to people. If it turns out true, then you need to protect yourself, but until/unless you are sure, I would assume that nobody really knows why he is how he is and I'd treat him according to how his behavior dictates.

I wish I could help you with Job Corps. Know nothing about it, but sounds hopeful. I do wish you all the best and encourage you to keep posting. We're always on call, even on Christmas Day

Hugs!!!!

 

[defiantchild]

I'm in a slightly different situation. Son was NOT compliant with therapists. He figured out their game before he was 8 years old - and always either told them what they wanted to hear, or refused to participate. But he has always been medications compliant. And isn't involved in drugs. As soon as substance abuse (even just "use") comes into the picture, it distorts everything else. I'm guessing your son knows how to "play" with the therapists, and they don't catch it. And as for what to do now... tough one.

I'd be tempted to find a more structured opportunity to pursue his cooking career. If that means job corps, so much the better. Get him launched. While there is still some control. But he has to be willing for the control in order to get launched.

Hi InsaneCdn,

I just spoke to a counselor at Job Corps. What a lovely person. She really seemed to care. I am getting more information about the program now. If we emancipate my Difficult Child then he will most likely be eligible. I really appreciate your suggestions and advice. It's so nice to know we are not completely alone in this world.

 

[New Leaf]

If I were you, I'd hope he'd quit using, and offer to help him if he comes to you asking for help in that, but keep yourself safe from him, no matter WHAT you think his diagnosis. is. He is almost an adult and soon he will be legal.

I agree with SWOT. It is up to him, in what he wants to do. It will be hard for him and you all, if he is still using, and this is not easy to tell, because drug users lie and manipulate. This sounds harsh, but it is true. If he chooses to use, no matter where you send him, it will affect his success.

I think Job Corps is a great option, but he has to buy into it, and be ready for it.

Gangs are scary and vicious. They have a way of replacing family ties, with loyalty to the gang and it's activities. My eldest brought her street friends around our home, it put us into a whole new ball game of fear and wondering for our safety.
I hope your son is not too entrenched with this gang. I would think the local authorities would have information for you about the gang, but this may be difficult, considering your unfortunate experience with the police chief. I know some areas have groups focused on gang awareness......At this point, any knowledge would help, it is important to know the risks for you and your household...... Now that I think of it, your older son may be able to give you some clues as well.
My daughter (doing well) just revealed some news to me about my eldest, and those she hung out with at 18 (she was troubled from 16). We were talking about her addiction, and the news of credit card theft.....My daughter said "Mom, she was involved with a gang at 18, doing the same things, she makes BAD choices, Mom, has been for a long time."

I think that there is a sense of loyalty between siblings, the whole, don't tell thing.

Perhaps your older boy has some perspective for you?

Double, triple and quadruple hugs for you D C. This is all very troubling.....

I am glad you have come here to CD, there is a wealth of information from warrior moms and dads on this site. In the end, the choice on how you proceed, is yours. We just offer our thoughts and our own stories as examples and hope it will help guide you.

We all support your decisions, this is your life, your son.

You are not alone.

(((HUGS)))
leafy

 

[defiantchild]

I agree with SWOT. It is up to him, in what he wants to do. It will be hard for him and you all, if he is still using, and this is not easy to tell, because drug users lie and manipulate. This sounds harsh, but it is true. If he chooses to use, no matter where you send him, it will affect his success.

I think Job Corps is a great option, but he has to buy into it, and be ready for it.

Gangs are scary and vicious. They have a way of replacing family ties, with loyalty to the gang and it's activities. My eldest brought her street friends around our home, it put us into a whole new ball game of fear and wondering for our safety.
I hope your son is not too entrenched with this gang. I would think the local authorities would have information for you about the gang, but this may be difficult, considering your unfortunate experience with the police chief. I know some areas have groups focused on gang awareness......At this point, any knowledge would help, it is important to know the risks for you and your household...... Now that I think of it, your older son may be able to give you some clues as well.
My daughter (doing well) just revealed some news to me about my eldest, and those she hung out with at 18 (she was troubled from 16). We were talking about her addiction, and the news of credit card theft.....My daughter said "Mom, she was involved with a gang at 18, doing the same things, she makes BAD choices, Mom, has been for a long time."

I think that there is a sense of loyalty between siblings, the whole, don't tell thing.

Perhaps your older boy has some perspective for you?

Double, triple and quadruple hugs for you D C. This is all very troubling.....

I am glad you have come here to CD, there is a wealth of information from warrior moms and dads on this site. In the end, the choice on how you proceed, is yours. We just offer our thoughts and our own stories as examples and hope it will help guide you.

We all support your decisions, this is your life, your son.

You are not alone.

(((HUGS)))
leafy

Thank you so much New Leaf. You are all wonderful....xo

 

[Nancy]

Hi defiantchild and welcome. You have been given some very good advice here. FWIW I agree with SWOT that you can take him to ten different therapists and get ten different diagnosis.

Years ago I was sure my difficult daughter had a personality disorder and perhaps bordering sociopath. I was devastated because I too knew there was little hope for that diagnosis. I am glad I never gave up on her because she is 24 now and most all of those traits that scared me so much are gone. She has matured in many ways. I know she has a drinking problem, drinks far too much as far as I'm concerned. But she has a good job and so far has done very well at it. Her very worst years were around 17-22. She was involved with many druggies and I was certain we would lose her. She did get into legal trouble and was in rehab for six months.

Sometimes we just have to let them learn natural consequences. I understand how scary that is so I don't say that lightly. There is not a lot you can do since he is turning 18 soon, but we did have to ask our daughter to leave our home at one point. When she asked to come home we said no but did help her get into a sober house and that began her turn around.

I use to say my daughter was the definition of defiance. And this started at a very early age. Somehow, someway, many times they do grow out of it. The job corps sounds promising. I hope it works out.

 

[Copabanana]

I am becoming infuriated with this psychiatrist. What I think it is is that the psychiatrist is having a hard time reaching him, and is throwing diagnoses at him.

It is far too early to come to those kinds of conclusions. The little bit you have told us, he seems to have strong familial relationships which would contraindicate sociopathy for me, or at least make me think twice.

So much has to come out in the wash. There is so much hope. The doctor has no right to impose such a thing on you.

I think you are beginning to come up with options. I think the London Culinary program sounds like a marvel. Job Corps could work too, but you need to understand that many of the participants are in the same boat as your son. Street wise. Having been in some trouble. But not serious. There is a racial component. Your kid may be perceived as advantaged and that might bring down a little trouble. Nothing he cannot handle, I think.

I would think about the military, too. Maybe your son seeks belonging, and that is why the gang appeals. Maybe that will make the military seem attractive, the danger part, combined with the team type aspect. He is smart. If he enlisted he could bargain for an excellent training, even college. I know a man who became an elite fighter pilot. If your son has any interest at all, you could research on the internet how to negotiate with them for excellent terms and potential.

You will have several options. One of them might well interest your son.

Keep us posted.

Let me tell you a little story about sociopathy. When I was in college I took a course in personality assessment. Part of it was taking various tests, ourselves, to better understand the process. One test was the California Personality Inventory, a short form of the MMPI. I missed the class where the results were explained. So I did my best to understand the results on my own. I was sky high on Sociopathy. In fact the only group who scored as high as did I were California Prison Inmates.

For years secretly, I thought I was a closet sociopath. Until maybe 30 or 35 years later I learned that Artists also scored high in Sociopathy. Think about it. Creativity requires a willingness to break the mold, to break with existing patterns. Risk-taking. Unwilling to follow norms if it means going against your own instincts and interests. In the right environment, and with a bit of maturity, these are all fine qualities.

COPA

 

[New Leaf]

I learned that Artists also scored high in Sociopathy. Think about it. Creativity requires a willingness to break the mold, to break with existing patterns. Risk-taking. Unwilling to follow norms if it means going against your own instincts and interests. In the right environment, and with a bit of maturity, these are all fine qualities.

And cooking is one of the finest arts....

 

[BusynMember]

I can't imagine how you'd score high on sociopathy, Copa. Some people have trouble taking that test. It's so long. I have taken it three times and sort of just put down what I felt the most and once it came normal with depression (this was when I was in a psychiatric hospital for ten weeks and I was terrified how I would fare and tried to be very honest) and the other two times it came back completely normal and I have issues...I was surprised it came back normal...lol. But it was true that I was not depressed the second two times I took that d***** 600 question test. Ugh. Never again.

I think, based on the fact that this young man defies rules, he could be deep in addiction. That can cause sociopathic behavior. He will have to get clean before anyone can diagnose him with any real understanding. It is NOT a good trait to think that rules are to be broken though. Many of our DCs think so. I don't think t hat this makes them all sociopaths. I believe it depends on how far they go and whether or not they feel bad.

To truly understand Sociopaths I highly recommend a very interesting book, "Without Conscience" by Dr. Robert Hare. Fascinating and sheds light on what a psychopath truly is. And what they do.

Copa, you are NOT a sociopath!!!! It is about not having any conscience and not being able to truly love other people...and that's not you. Tests, like psychiatrists, can be wrong too.

 

[Copabanana]

I can't imagine how you'd score high on sociopathy, Copa.

Copa, you are NOT a sociopath!!!!

Thank you for your support, Serenity. I do not think so either. I gave that example to illustrate how whacko the tests and professionals can be. I do not want to be down on them but even they do not fully understand or depend on computer scoring.

This young man inspires love from his family. It is not just one sided and that they are responsible. They love him because he is bringing something to the table. He is just temporarily off the reservation. That is what I think. Nobody can know when he will straighten out .... but I feel he will. I think drugs are a huge issue, too.

Thank you.

COPA

 

[defiantchild]

Hi defiantchild and welcome. You have been given some very good advice here. FWIW I agree with SWOT that you can take him to ten different therapists and get ten different diagnosis.

Years ago I was sure my difficult daughter had a personality disorder and perhaps bordering sociopath. I was devastated because I too knew there was little hope for that diagnosis. I am glad I never gave up on her because she is 24 now and most all of those traits that scared me so much are gone. She has matured in many ways. I know she has a drinking problem, drinks far too much as far as I'm concerned. But she has a good job and so far has done very well at it. Her very worst years were around 17-22. She was involved with many druggies and I was certain we would lose her. She did get into legal trouble and was in rehab for six months.

Sometimes we just have to let them learn natural consequences. I understand how scary that is so I don't say that lightly. There is not a lot you can do since he is turning 18 soon, but we did have to ask our daughter to leave our home at one point. When she asked to come home we said no but did help her get into a sober house and that began her turn around.

I use to say my daughter was the definition of defiance. And this started at a very early age. Somehow, someway, many times they do grow out of it. The job corps sounds promising. I hope it works out.

Wow, Nancy. Thank you for that post. It's so encouraging to hear stories like yours. It's the best thing in the world for me to hear.

The problem we are having at the moment is my son is still embroiled in some legal problems. His sentencing is January 4th. I believe his charge will be reduced to a B misdemeanor, but not sure if we can legally emancipate him at this point since there will be some form of probation or conditional discharge. I will have to seek some legal advice on this.

I brought up the job corps idea to him and he balked at it. He said he is not ready to go back to school...so forcing him won't have a good outcome. I can't force him to do anything he doesn't want to do. He DOES want to be emancipated. And his DOES want to move out on his own. He DOES want to work as a cook. I am scared to death that he will make some really bad choices and get in more trouble when he's out on his own. But maybe he will surprise us all? Maybe this is just what he needs. This is when we start to turn to prayer (when we finally realize we are powerless).

 

[defiantchild]

I am becoming infuriated with this psychiatrist. What I think it is is that the psychiatrist is having a hard time reaching him, and is throwing diagnoses at him.

It is far too early to come to those kinds of conclusions. The little bit you have told us, he seems to have strong familial relationships which would contraindicate sociopathy for me, or at least make me think twice.

So much has to come out in the wash. There is so much hope. The doctor has no right to impose such a thing on you.

I think you are beginning to come up with options. I think the London Culinary program sounds like a marvel. Job Corps could work too, but you need to understand that many of the participants are in the same boat as your son. Street wise. Having been in some trouble. But not serious. There is a racial component. Your kid may be perceived as advantaged and that might bring down a little trouble. Nothing he cannot handle, I think.

I would think about the military, too. Maybe your son seeks belonging, and that is why the gang appeals. Maybe that will make the military seem attractive, the danger part, combined with the team type aspect. He is smart. If he enlisted he could bargain for an excellent training, even college. I know a man who became an elite fighter pilot. If your son has any interest at all, you could research on the internet how to negotiate with them for excellent terms and potential.

You will have several options. One of them might well interest your son.

Keep us posted.

Let me tell you a little story about sociopathy. When I was in college I took a course in personality assessment. Part of it was taking various tests, ourselves, to better understand the process. One test was the California Personality Inventory, a short form of the MMPI. I missed the class where the results were explained. So I did my best to understand the results on my own. I was sky high on Sociopathy. In fact the only group who scored as high as did I were California Prison Inmates.

For years secretly, I thought I was a closet sociopath. Until maybe 30 or 35 years later I learned that Artists also scored high in Sociopathy. Think about it. Creativity requires a willingness to break the mold, to break with existing patterns. Risk-taking. Unwilling to follow norms if it means going against your own instincts and interests. In the right environment, and with a bit of maturity, these are all fine qualities.

COPA

Wow, so interesting Copa! Thank you for sharing this story. I can't believe that test was accurate though! My son is very charming when he wants to be. He can behave in a very loving way. But he doesn't seem to think through the possible consequences of any of his actions. He doesn't seem to care about who gets hurt along the way. It's not on the radar...He blames others for his mistakes. Rarely takes responsibility for his actions.

I really hope this is a brain development delay. It worries me so when the psychiatrist speaks so confidently about the diagnosis. Like it's a forgone conclusion. Something my husband and I must accept and find ways to protect ourselves from. It's all very scary.

 

[Nancy]

Defiant, there was a time I thought my daughter did not have a conscience either and was unable to love us. An example, she was taking a bath, around ten I believe, and she called me upstairs in an urgent manner. I went running into the bathroom and slipped on the ceramic tile and hurt myself badly. She laughed. It turned out she spread liquid soap all over the floor and set it up so I would fall. I am embarrassed to even repeat this now. But today she is a very loving young lady, hugs me every time we see each other and ends every phone conversation with "love you".

I can give many other examples that worried me so. I believe her brain was underdeveloped and took longer to develop empathy.

 

[Copabanana]

Defiant, many of our kids display the characteristics you cite: externalizing responsibility, not thinking things through, manipulative charm to get what they want, blaming others. Including my own son.

I think part of this goes with ADHD. I think some of it is defensiveness. If this makes sense: his guilt is so great he is always ready to volley it away...like a hot potato.

I was talking to a psychiatrist a number of months. About my own issues partly having to do with mourning the death of my Mother, also about my son. The psychoanalyst/psychiatrist had never met my son. He too wanted me to accept the worst. He asked me this: Is there ever a time when you are not benefited by accepting reality? True enough. But how can he know the reality of somebody he never met? He was certain he did.

I tried to tell him: Every single thing you know about my son is filtered through me. My fear. Anxiety. Bias. Self-judgment. Even without ever meeting my son, he was without hope. I admit he could be right. But where does this certainty come from?

I think most of the parents on this board who have been here awhile would tell you that you must protect yourselves. First and foremost. They would also tell you that your son will benefit from your detaching. (There is an attachment on the board about detachment and what to do.) Detaching does not mean we do not love them. It means we stop living their consequences and stop doing for them what they should be doing for themselves.

But that is not the same as giving an ironclad diagnosis. A forever diagnosis.

There is a Rabbi in Los Angeles (Culver City) who with his wife, who is a social worker, runs a faith-based residential treatment program. They accept anybody. There is drug treatment and they take the mentally ill, too. And they believe anybody can change. They believe that people change profoundly with a different value system, specifically, living a life centered around faith and living with purpose and community. They have satellite housing where participants can live nearby and participate long-term while they are working.

So this is the kicker. The Rabbi before he was a Rabbi was a multi-prison term felon. He was a crook and a scoundrel. A real no-goodnik. His family believed he was a lost cause. He would most definitely be considered a sociopath by both of our psychiatrists.

He has helped thousands of people. Important people support him and his work and flock to him. I learned of him through my attorney who is one of the most influential people in Jewish life in LA and in the nation.

So there for Sociopaths. Perhaps this Rabbi really is a sociopath. Let us give us that. That he met the diagnosis and still has traits. Fine and good. (Although I do not believe this. Nor do I believe he was ever a sociopath, although I cannot know.)

Who cares? He functions in a powerful and admirable way. His life is meaningful for him and many, many others.

That is what I think. Hope is everything. Pigeon-holing is wrong. People thinking that they are oracles, is wrong.

Nobody can say with certainty what the future will be. If they do, proceed with caution. That is what I think.

COPA

 

[Copabanana]

The name of the program I wrote about is beit t'shuvah.

 

[Copabanana]

He DOES want to be emancipated. And his DOES want to move out on his own. He DOES want to work as a cook.

Is he interested in the London program?

Think about it: how much control do you have over him now? How much have you been able to protect him?

Emancipating could be a disaster. Not emancipating could be a disaster. It is up to him. Maybe if he knows he is autonomous he will try harder. He will be more invested. He will believe you trust him and believe him and want to support him.

There is a concept in psychology called, paradox, I think. It is based upon martial arts. The therapist gives in to the patient. Gives him the power. And gets out of the way. It seems to make all of the difference, in many cases.

If you look at the situation now, he already has full power to do anything he wants. You have not successfully stopped him from doing one thing. If you are like the rest of us, you have not gotten him to do anything either.

If he emancipates, he will have both control...and responsibility. You would be out of it. He could turn to you for counsel and support. That is what has restored my own relationship with my son to some extent. I completely got out of the way. When I did, he began asking me for counsel. Seeking me out for advice. Wanting to talk things through with me. Asking me what was right or wrong.

I do not want to exaggerate this. There is not a conversion, yet. But it is better.

COPA

 

[defiantchild]

Is he interested in the London program?

Think about it: how much control do you have over him now? How much have you been able to protect him?

Emancipating could be a disaster. Not emancipating could be a disaster. It is up to him. Maybe if he knows he is autonomous he will try harder. He will be more invested. He will believe you trust him and believe him and want to support him.

There is a concept in psychology called, paradox, I think. It is based upon martial arts. The therapist gives in to the patient. Gives him the power. And gets out of the way. It seems to make all of the difference, in many cases.

If you look at the situation now, he already has full power to do anything he wants. You have not successfully stopped him from doing one thing. If you are like the rest of us, you have not gotten him to do anything either.

If he emancipates, he will have both control...and responsibility. You would be out of it. He could turn to you for counsel and support. That is what has restored my own relationship with my son to some extent. I completely got out of the way. When I did, he began asking me for counsel. Seeking me out for advice. Wanting to talk things through with me. Asking me what was right or wrong.

I do not want to exaggerate this. There is not a conversion, yet. But it is better.

COPA

Very interesting concept, Copa. It's counterintuitive but makes so much sense. What is your son doing now? How old is he?

 

[defiantchild]

The name of the program I wrote about is beit t'shuvah.

Hi Copa,

Just noticed your other post. Unbelievable story about that Rabbi. Our own rabbi who is one of the most wonderful people I have ever met LOVES my Difficult Child. Every time Difficult Child was suspended from school the rabbi and his wife would take him in and have him do community service there so he had a place to go. They don't pigeon hole him either....sometimes I think they are just naive...but maybe there is more to it?

And ironically, while I was working for a client in NYC (I'm an interior designer) I met an elderly couple who lived in an apartment across the hall from my client. They were having some trouble hearing their doorbell....needed to change the mechanism so it rang louder and they could hear it in the other rooms farther from the door. I saw what was going on and said hello to them and offered to help. It turned out they needed some sort of adaptor for their electrical outlet in order to make this device work. Since I was working overseeing this renovation and had to be at the job site every day, I offered to pick this adaptor up for them at the hardware store the next morning on my way to the job. They seemed like such wonderful people and it made me feel good to help them. Of course they resisted, but I insisted and this was the beginning of a beautiful friendship that I now have with this amazing woman. Sadly, her husband passed a few months ago....The reason I am telling you this story, is that this woman's eldest son was a Difficult Child. She had to throw him out of the house when he was 18. She was resigned to never speak to him again based on all the things that had happened. Well, he turned himself around - so much so that he is now a very well respected and adored minister in California who counsels prison inmates!! His prisoners have the lowest recidivism on record. Isn't this an amazing story???

This elderly friend of mine literally sensed what I was going through with my son without me ever uttering a word. She KNEW. It's incredible what a support system she has been for me. She thinks when my son is 18 in a few months we need to kick him out like she did with her son....she doesn't see any other way with him...

 

[defiantchild]

Defiant, there was a time I thought my daughter did not have a conscience either and was unable to love us. An example, she was taking a bath, around ten I believe, and she called me upstairs in an urgent manner. I went running into the bathroom and slipped on the ceramic tile and hurt myself badly. She laughed. It turned out she spread liquid soap all over the floor and set it up so I would fall. I am embarrassed to even repeat this now. But today she is a very loving young lady, hugs me every time we see each other and ends every phone conversation with "love you".

I can give many other examples that worried me so. I believe her brain was underdeveloped and took longer to develop empathy.

Nancy, thank you for sharing, it's difficult to discuss these sorts of things. What matters now is who she is today. Thank goodness you had faith and she grew up. The brain is such a complicated thing. I pray that my son is one of those whose brains develop normally, albeit slowly....I'll take slowly over not at all. xo

 

[Copabanana]

Defiant,

I just paid attention to your name.

showing defiance.
"she was in a defiant mood"
synonyms: intransigent, resistant, obstinate, uncooperative, noncompliant,recalcitrant;
obstreperous, truculent, dissenting, disobedient,insubordinate, subversive, rebellious, mutinous, feisty, unruly
"he is defiant in the face of critics"

At least a couple of these meanings indicate a strong and enduring inner directedness that is the greatest source of strength. Dissent. Intransigence.
A few more, depend upon context, whether or not they are perceived as powerful or not. Like subversive or rebellious or intransigent. You get my drift.

Your son is inner directed. This is a good, not a bad thing. He is railing against authority. If he becomes the authority is his own life, he will no longer have to oppose others. It is a theory, not a fact, but what can you do?

She thinks when my son is 18 in a few months we need to kick him out like she did with her son

In so many ways your son is already emancipated. Without the paperwork. To get the paperwork it would just be to acknowledge what already is a fact.

COPA

 

[defiantchild]

Defiant,

I just paid attention to your name.

showing defiance.
"she was in a defiant mood"
synonyms: intransigent, resistant, obstinate, uncooperative, noncompliant,recalcitrant;
obstreperous, truculent, dissenting, disobedient,insubordinate, subversive, rebellious, mutinous, feisty, unruly
"he is defiant in the face of critics"

At least a couple of these meanings indicate a strong and enduring inner directedness that is the greatest source of strength. Dissent. Intransigence.
A few more, depend upon context, whether or not they are perceived as powerful or not. Like subversive or rebellious or intransigent. You get my drift.

Your son is inner directed. This is a good, not a bad thing. He is railing against authority. If he becomes the authority is his own life, he will no longer have to oppose others. It is a theory, not a fact, but what can you do?
In so many ways your son is already emancipated. Without the paperwork. To get the paperwork it would just be to acknowledge what already is a fact.

COPA

Copa, you are awesome. Have you ever read the book "Me Before You"? I listened to the audio book last year....the subject was not something I would ordinarily choose to read - about a young man who becomes a
quadrapelic. I'm glad I listened to my friend's recommendation and bought the book. It's great. Sad in many ways, but also so incredibly uplifting in others. The caretaker finds priceless comfort in an online support site, like this. It saved her in so many ways.