17 yr old son doing drugs, hanging w members of a gang in NY

[New Leaf]

Copa, you are awesome.

I completely agree with you D C!

Your son is inner directed. This is a good, not a bad thing. He is railing against authority. If he becomes the authority is his own life, he will no longer have to oppose others. It is a theory, not a fact, but what can you do?

I like this way of viewing defiance. Your son is a trailblazer....Here are quotes from another thread about a trailblazer in his own time, long ago......

But I read this morning that Leonardo da Vinci was a total loser until, at 46, he painted the Last Supper. So, we will just sit tight then, because my kids are not yet 46. Miraculous, unpredictable things happen every minute of every day and night.

I am wondering about his mother.

Was she crying and keening because all he did was stay up all night drawing in his notebook things that would not be invented for another 500 years?

"In an era when left-handedness was considered the devil's work and lefties were often forced to use their right hand, Leonardo was an unrepentant southpaw. It has been suggested that this "difference" was an element of his genius, since his detachment allowed him to see beyond the ordinary. He even wrote backwards, and his writings are easily deciphered only with a mirror."
from- http://legacy.mos.org/leonardo/bio.html


Who knows what our d cs are capable of, when finding their direction and meaning?

Copa also introduced me to Viktor Frankl......

My two, are out there, and it is hard, but this gave me great hope, and a reason to stop worrying and grieving, but try to focus on "overestimating" them, seeing that they are searching for their meaning. Trying to be an idealist.....

Thank you Copa and D C, for reminding me of this.......

Recognize mans search for meaning,
"presuppose, in this man, this so called "criminal, or juvenile delinquent, or drug abuse and so forth, there must be a spark of search for meaning, let's recognize this, lets presuppose it, and then you will elicit it from him, and you will make him become what he in principle, is capable of becoming."


inspiring.......isn't it?

(((HUGS)))

leafy

 

[defiantchild]

Hi Leafy,

You are incredible, too!! Thank you so much for sharing this with me. I feel so hopeful when I read these wonderful posts from you all.

My husband intuitively treated me in this manner. He has always believed in me. Whether he really felt this way or not, feels this way or not, I have no way of really knowing. His total
belief in me, even when I didn't deserve it, is what has enabled me to become the person I am today. His optimism with respect to the people he loves is remarkable. I have to show him this video. Now even though Difficult Child is doing really delinquent things, behaving so irresponsibly, we have to do this for him as well. It's so counterintuitive for me. But I need to keep reminding myself that it's our only hope with a personality like his. Thank you so very much for pointing this out to me - for reminding me of something that is so incredibly obvious, but so counterintuitive, that it didn't even occur to me.

So much to learn on this site. So fortunate to have found you.

xo

 

[Copabanana]

His total
belief in me, even when I didn't deserve it, is what has enabled me to become the person I am today. His optimism with respect to the people he loves is remarkable.

Defiant, I do not have much time right now, but want to say one thing.

Some of us have shared that we had difficult family lives as children. And when our children began to have trouble, our own pasts were triggered.

One of things that is hard for me, is the lack of hope and faith. A belief in a better outcome. It is more about myself, than a lack of optimism about others and life itself.

On some level I have felt myself either unlovable or without hope. While I achieved a great deal in my life, it was in defiance of what I believed was my true lot in life.
When my son became troubled, severely so, I believed it was my curse. Inside of me, I think that is what I felt. That I did not deserve better. For a long time I was an ineffective parent to my son, because I was fighting against the reality of things. This "curse." Needless to say, it did not work.

Your husband sounds like a wonderful and amazing man. For you to have not believed in yourself, to say "even when I didn't deserve it," reminded me of myself.

I think I am not the only one whose fears get triggered in our travails with children. We fear the worst. About ourselves. And we may project it to our children. Our own fear and sense that the worst might come to bear.

COPA

 

[defiantchild]

Thank you Copa. Very interesting insight. Triggers are incredibly harmful to us when we aren't aware of them. Awareness is critical.

 

[New Leaf]

His optimism with respect to the people he loves is remarkable. I have to show him this video.

How wonderful for you D C, to have such a supportive husband, you are blessed.....I was watching the other videos of Victor Frankl at the end of this one, he was truly a gift for all of us.

Thank you so very much for pointing this out to me - for reminding me of something that is so incredibly obvious, but so counterintuitive, that it didn't even occur to me.

Our d cs, are working at finding their meaning. It is not what we envisioned for them, but, we have no control, really, over their choices. We can suggest, and offer other choices and alternatives, but, the nature of our d cs, is to do it their way.....

I have been through so many different phases, and emotions through all of this. I wish I knew of this site years ago, but, I believe everything happens for a reason.

It is through sharing and posting here, that I was able to look at my old patterning and responses, and seek solutions. Still going through the roller coaster of emotions, but slowly getting better. You are right, D C, prayer helps a lot.

We all try as best we can to help one another...... you have helped me too, in sharing the Viktor Frankl video, I am reminded to think more positively and move forward with my own life, and my search for meaning.

I hope things settle down a bit with your son, it is a difficult time to endure.
By the sounds of it, you have tried for years and years to find answers. I am sorry it has been such a tough road for you and family.

Who knows what the future will bring?

Best to you and yours...
leafy

 

[defiantchild]

Is he interested in the London program?

Think about it: how much control do you have over him now? How much have you been able to protect him?

Emancipating could be a disaster. Not emancipating could be a disaster. It is up to him. Maybe if he knows he is autonomous he will try harder. He will be more invested. He will believe you trust him and believe him and want to support him.

There is a concept in psychology called, paradox, I think. It is based upon martial arts. The therapist gives in to the patient. Gives him the power. And gets out of the way. It seems to make all of the difference, in many cases.

If you look at the situation now, he already has full power to do anything he wants. You have not successfully stopped him from doing one thing. If you are like the rest of us, you have not gotten him to do anything either.

If he emancipates, he will have both control...and responsibility. You would be out of it. He could turn to you for counsel and support. That is what has restored my own relationship with my son to some extent. I completely got out of the way. When I did, he began asking me for counsel. Seeking me out for advice. Wanting to talk things through with me. Asking me what was right or wrong.

I do not want to exaggerate this. There is not a conversion, yet. But it is better.

COPA

Copa, do you know more about that concept in psychology called Paradox? I tried to do some research on it, but can't seem to find. Would love to read more on that topic...Merry Christmas to you and your family

 

[Copabanana]

Copa, do you know more about that concept in psychology called Paradox?

I first learned of it in graduate school. At that time maybe 30 to 35 years ago it was taught as a part of humanistic psychology. I just googled these words: strategic psychotherapy concepts of martial arts and I found a lot of articles that may touch on it.

You may also want to look at Dialectical Therapy.

I need to get ready to go out. I will try to remember when I come home to look further, or tomorrow, to find specific references.

The concept is one that we here learn: to get out of the way. So much of our children's energies are oriented towards resisting our authority. When we stop pushing back, they are left with themselves. The idea is winning (us) by using our power strategically, not to oppose.

Even reading about the martial arts per se will illuminate the concept. I have never done martial arts, but I think the idea is dominating a situation by strategic interventions that result in the opponent's own power, own thrusts arriving where you have planned for them to go. Or something like that.

COPA

 

[Copabanana]

The originator of Dialectical Behavioral Therapy is Marsha Linehan. When I first learned about strategic therapies she had not yet codified DBT. It has become tremendously used with people who had heretofore been thought as unable to be treated. As treatment resistant.

I found a book online through google, where they show you parts of the book, but do not let you copy it. I think this is the title: the therapeutic relationship in dialectical behavioral therapy.

I read a little bit: they talk about paradoxical interventions and making lemonade out of lemons and speak of this as allowing natural change. That is on page 251.

I have Linehan's first book here at home. I will try to look it over the next few days.

The way I would understand your situation is that, if I was looking at it this way:

By bringing up emancipation, you are tapping your son's own power, going with his strength, not against it. You take away any "win" he may get by opposing you, or making self-destructive choices. You are making lemons from lemonade. Your son's great strength is his personal power, his willingness to go it alone. An insistence upon doing it his own way.

Fine you say. We will support you. How? He is stunned. You have gotten his attention. All of the wind to oppose you, to defy you, has lost it's win.

Your son is no longer defiant because you have gotten out of the way. If you are with him, what is there to oppose? The new brew, the lemonade, is sweetened by your support, your willingness to stand with him. Your acceptance that the only thing that is important is that he learn how to live.

COPA

 

[defiantchild]

The originator of Dialectical Behavioral Therapy is Marsha Linehan. When I first learned about strategic therapies she had not yet codified DBT. It has become tremendously used with people who had heretofore been thought as unable to be treated. As treatment resistant.

I found a book online through google, where they show you parts of the book, but do not let you copy it. I think this is the title: the therapeutic relationship in dialectical behavioral therapy.

I read a little bit: they talk about paradoxical interventions and making lemonade out of lemons and speak of this as allowing natural change. That is on page 251.

I have Linehan's first book here at home. I will try to look it over the next few days.

The way I would understand your situation is that, if I was looking at it this way:

By bringing up emancipation, you are tapping your son's own power, going with his strength, not against it. You take away any "win" he may get by opposing you, or making self-destructive choices. You are making lemons from lemonade. Your son's great strength is his personal power, his willingness to go it alone. An insistence upon doing it his own way.

Fine you say. We will support you. How? He is stunned. You have gotten his attention. All of the wind to oppose you, to defy you, has lost it's win.

Your son is no longer defiant because you have gotten out of the way. If you are with him, what is there to oppose? The new brew, the lemonade, is sweetened by your support, your willingness to stand with him. Your acceptance that the only thing that is important is that he learn how to live.

COPA

Wow. This is so powerful. The truth is, there really is no other option. I will read up on this book. Thank you for taking the time, Copa!

 

[svengandhi]

Defiant child -

I am sorry to hear about your difficulties with your younger son. Although my Difficult Child did not ever do drugs and he liked school well enough in HS to have an almost perfect attendance record, I worried because he had been diagnosed with ODD/anxiety in elementary school and I feared he would become a sociopath (my sister is one, I am certain and I have no contact with her as a result). He is now 21, in college and while he will probably never be the most empathetic person around, his brain has matured to the point where I no longer fear sociopathy, as I did when he was your son's age. So there is hope.

When you mentioned your rabbi, I had a thought. I am also Jewish and from the NYC area. A friend of mine who has a son who is now in his mid-20's, sent him to live on a kibbutz for about 6 months when he was at his worst (18 or 19, I think). You might be able to find a program where he can do his work in the kitchen instead of in the field. My friend's son, a true North Shore boy, had to give vaccines to cows! This young man is now self-supporting and no longer does drugs. I don't know how religious your family is but there are kibbutzim which are more secular in nature and focus. I thought about sending my son there but I couldn't afford it and he decided to go to college instead.

Good luck to you.

 

[Copabanana]

My friend's son, a true North Shore boy, had to give vaccines to cows!

What a great idea.

 

[Copabanana]

I love Svengandhi's idea of a kibbutz. Can I go too?

COPA

 

[defiantchild]

Defiant child -

I am sorry to hear about your difficulties with your younger son. Although my Difficult Child did not ever do drugs and he liked school well enough in HS to have an almost perfect attendance record, I worried because he had been diagnosed with ODD/anxiety in elementary school and I feared he would become a sociopath (my sister is one, I am certain and I have no contact with her as a result). He is now 21, in college and while he will probably never be the most empathetic person around, his brain has matured to the point where I no longer fear sociopathy, as I did when he was your son's age. So there is hope.

When you mentioned your rabbi, I had a thought. I am also Jewish and from the NYC area. A friend of mine who has a son who is now in his mid-20's, sent him to live on a kibbutz for about 6 months when he was at his worst (18 or 19, I think). You might be able to find a program where he can do his work in the kitchen instead of in the field. My friend's son, a true North Shore boy, had to give vaccines to cows! This young man is now self-supporting and no longer does drugs. I don't know how religious your family is but there are kibbutzim which are more secular in nature and focus. I thought about sending my son there but I couldn't afford it and he decided to go to college instead.

Good luck to you.

This is such a great idea. In fact, my husband used to say this all the time. Exactly. He used to say our son should live on a Kibbutz or a farm and milk cows! Do you have any more information? Can you tell me more about your friend's son? Thank you, svengandhi, this is a really good idea.

 

[svengandhi]

We aren't allowed to name actual places or programs on the site but I checked the program my friend's son was in and they have to be 19 for that one. The rest require that you be 18. You should google the various programs and locations to see what interests you. Your rabbi might also be a source of information.

On another note, is there any way that your son can be encouraged to get his GED?

My friend's son is adopted from an eastern European country and had behavioral issues and some Learning Disability (LD)'s. It's hard for kids who have issues to fit in on the North Shore, as I learned with mine. I truly wish that I could have raised my kids where I grew up (the Bronx) but it really isn't the same place now and most schools are not good there.

Good luck you and your family.

 

[defiantchild]

Svengandhi, thanks for sharing this info. My real concern is that I'm not sure any program we find for him will work.

My husband and I made a beautiful meal at home last night for the two boys and us. My Difficult Child is a year younger than my other son. We had a really nice time together. Difficult Child has been sick the past few days and has called into work. We are very worried he could lose his job. The reason I bring this us is because suddenly when dinner was over he said his friend is picking him up and they are going out. My husband told him he did not want him to go bc he's been sick and didn't even go to work that day. My Difficult Child basically laughed at him and said he's going out, he didn't really care what we thought. And he left, just like that. It illustrated more than ever how little control (none) we have over him. I think Copa is right when she talks about 'staying out of his way' allowing him to own his decisions entirely. It's so counter to what i've always thought 'good' parents should do. Protect and guide our children. We are unable to do either in the case of this son. We are still waiting to hear back from the lawyer about whether or not we can emancipate him if the court gives him a 'conditional discharge' or probation once he's sentenced on January 4th.

As for GED, he said he's not interested in doing that now. He wants to work for another year before getting it. Not sure why. Seems crazy to us. I can't figure him out at all. But we realize we can't push a string, we can't make him do anything. And the more we push, the less he's likely to do it.

 

[defiantchild]

I completely agree with you D C!

I like this way of viewing defiance. Your son is a trailblazer....Here are quotes from another thread about a trailblazer in his own time, long ago......





"In an era when left-handedness was considered the devil's work and lefties were often forced to use their right hand, Leonardo was an unrepentant southpaw. It has been suggested that this "difference" was an element of his genius, since his detachment allowed him to see beyond the ordinary. He even wrote backwards, and his writings are easily deciphered only with a mirror."
from- http://legacy.mos.org/leonardo/bio.html


Who knows what our d cs are capable of, when finding their direction and meaning?

Copa also introduced me to Viktor Frankl......

My two, are out there, and it is hard, but this gave me great hope, and a reason to stop worrying and grieving, but try to focus on "overestimating" them, seeing that they are searching for their meaning. Trying to be an idealist.....

Thank you Copa and D C, for reminding me of this.......

Recognize mans search for meaning,
"presuppose, in this man, this so called "criminal, or juvenile delinquent, or drug abuse and so forth, there must be a spark of search for meaning, let's recognize this, lets presuppose it, and then you will elicit it from him, and you will make him become what he in principle, is capable of becoming."


inspiring.......isn't it?

(((HUGS)))

leafy

Hi Leafy,

I found this on the Victor Frankl Institute website. So interesting. Thank you for telling me about him.



WHAT IS LOGOTHERAPY AND EXISTENTIAL ANALYSIS?


by Alexander Batthyany

The development of Logotherapy and Existential Analysis dates back to the 1930s. On the basis of Sigmund Freud's Psychoanalysis and Alfred Adler's Individual Psychology the psychiatrist and neurologist Viktor Emil Frankl (1905-1997) laid down the foundations of a new and original approach which he first published in 1938. Logotherapy/Existential Analysis, sometimes called the "Third Viennese School of Psychotherapy", is an internationally acknowledged and empirically based meaning-centered approach to psychotherapy.

In Logotherapy/Existential Analysis (LTEA) the search for a meaning in life is identified as the primary motivational force in human beings.

Frankl's approach is based on three philosophical and psychological concepts:

• Freedom of Will
• Will to Meaning, and
• Meaning in Life

¦ FREEDOM OF WILL
According to LTEA humans are not fully subject to conditions but are basically free to decide and capable of taking their stance towards internal (psychological) and external (biological and social) conditions. Freedom is here defined as the space of shaping one's own life within the limits of the given possibilities. This freedom derives from the spiritual dimension of the person, which is understood as the essentially human realm, over and above the dimensions of body and of psyche. As spiritual persons, humans are not just reacting organisms but autonomous beings capable of actively shaping their lives.

The freedom of the human person plays an important role in psychotherapy, in that it provides clients with room for autonomous action even in the face of somatic or psychological illness. And it just that resource which enables clients, in the context of the techniques of Paradoxical Intention and Dereflection, to cope with their symptoms and to regain control and self-determination.

¦ WILL TO MEANING
Human beings are not only free, but most importantly they are free to something - namely, to achieve goals and purposes. The search for meaning is seen as the primary motivation of humans. When a person cannot realize his or her "Will to Meaning" in their lives they will experience an abysmal sensation of meaninglessness and emptiness. The frustration of the existential need for meaningful goals will give rise to aggression, addiction, depression and suicidality, and it may engender or increase psychosomatic maladies and neurotic disorders.

Logotherapy/Existential Analysis assists clients in perceiving and removing those factors that hinder them in pursuing meaningful goals in their lives. Clients are sensitized for the perception of meaning potentialities; however, they are not offered specific meanings. Rather, they are guided and assisted in the realization of those meaning possibilities they have detected themselves.

¦ MEANING IN LIFE
LTEA is based on the idea that meaning is an objective reality, as opposed to a mere illusion arising within the perceptional apparatus of the observer. This is in contrast to the so-called "Occupational and Recreational Therapies" which are primarily concerned with diverting the clients' attention from disturbed or disturbing modes of experience.

According to LTEA humans are called upon, on the grounds of their freedom and responsibility, to bring forth the possible best in themselves and in the world, by perceiving and realizing the meaning of the moment in each and every situation. In this context it must be stressed that these meaning potentials, although objective in nature, are linked to the specific situation and person, and are therefore continually changing. Thus LTEA does not declare or offer some general meaning of life. Rather, clients are aided in achieving the openness and flexibility that will enable them to shape their day-to-day lives in a meaningful manner.



¦ THERAPEUTIC TECHNIQUES IN LTEA (SELECTION)

Paradoxical Intention
Indications: mainly compulsive disorders and anxiety, also vegetative syndromes.
Guided by the physician or therapist, clients learn to overcome their obsessions or anxieties by self-distancing and humorous exaggeration, thus breaking the vicious circle of symptom and symptom amplification.

Dereflexion
Indications: Sexual disorders and sleeplessness, also anxiety disorders.
Instinctive, automatic processes are impeded and hindered by exaggerated self-observation. By the same token, some mild and well-founded sensations of anxiousness or sadness will be increased and amplified by self-observation, making them more noticeable and engendering even more intense observation. It is the purpose of dereflexion to break this neuroticizing circle by drawing the client's attention away from the symptom or the naturally flowing process.

Socratic dialogue / modification of attitudes
Certain attitudes and expectations may be obstacles to meaning fulfillment. They can alienate a person from the meaning potentialities in his or her life, thus accentuating neurotic disorders, or even producing them via repeated maldecisions and formation of behavior patterns.

It is important to note that the therapist or physician must refrain from imposing his or her own values or meaning perceptions. Rather, clients are guided to perceive their unrealistic and counterproductive attitudes and to develop a new outlook that may be a better basis for a fulfilled life.

Socratic dialogue is a conversational method frequently used by logotherapists. Specific questions are aimed to raise into consciousness the possibility to find, and the freedom to fulfill, meaning in one's life. In the philosophical setting this technique of guiding by questioning was introduced by Socrates, who characterized it as a sort of "spiritual midwifery".

 

[New Leaf]

The reason I bring this up is because suddenly when dinner was over he said his friend is picking him up and they are going out. My husband told him he did not want him to go bc he's been sick and didn't even go to work that day. My Difficult Child basically laughed at him and said he's going out, he didn't really care what we thought. And he left, just like that. It illustrated more than ever how little control (none) we have over him.

Defiant, this is exactly my twos m.o. EXACTLY.....Moaning and groaning, so ill, cannot get up, call in sick,
then POOF a friend calls-out the door.
I started calling them the "night walkers" because that is what they became.
It was the drugs, I realized, they were coming down, not high......ill, because they were not high. UGH.

The Viktor Frankl work-thank you...

Socratic dialogue is a conversational method frequently used by logotherapists. Specific questions are aimed to raise into consciousness the possibility to find, and the freedom to fulfill, meaning in one's life. In the philosophical setting this technique of guiding by questioning was introduced by Socrates, who characterized it as a sort of "spiritual midwifery".

I find this so interesting, my Dad loved Socrates, he was very stoic, smart, and a man of few words. When he spoke, it meant a lot. One of his favorite sayings,
"It is what it is" so little words, but so true.
Dad studied Epictetus and carried this quote with him

"Seek not to have things happen as you choose them, but rather choose that they should happen as they do, and you shall live prosperously."

I believe this is radical acceptance.
We have no control over external circumstances, only the way we react and respond. This helps in dealing with all of the emotion. It is hard for me, I am very sensitive, so working at this is constant.

I do not even talk with my two about rehab, or drugs anymore, it is like trying to pet a vicious dog......

One day at a time, inch by inch. Step by step and deep slow breaths.

Take good care of yourself.
(((HUGS)))
leafy

 

[defiantchild]

Hi Leafy,
Your Dad sounds like a very smart man. I love that he carried that quote around with him. It's so simple, but so powerful.
If we are open, and truly want to learn and change, we become more and more enlightened each day. I'm learning a lot here.
xo

 

[New Leaf]

Hi Leafy,
Your Dad sounds like a very smart man. I love that he carried that quote around with him. It's so simple, but so powerful.

Thank you Defiant, He was very smart. He passed almost 4 years ago, after a series of illnesses.
Life is short. Too short to be stuck. There is much to live for and experience while we are still able.

If we are open, and truly want to learn and change, we become more and more enlightened each day. I'm learning a lot here.
xo

This is so true D C every single day is a wonderful opportunity. The past....a lesson, the present..... a gift....the future..... unknown.
I am learning a lot here, too.
Interestingly enough, my parents expected us to be out of the house by 18. College, work, whatever, out of the house. Old school thinking.
In this day and age, economy, I can see why parents help their kids beyond 18. I would not mind extended family living, but everyone has to cooperate and see the value of following rules. It is hard when our d c's will do whatever they feel like, regardless of consequence to themselves or others.
Dad would say " You don't like the rules, there's the door."
Huh
No pining away, no regret, no hesitation, "There is the door...."
Good old fashioned, no nonsense.
I wish I had learned from that, would have saved me heaps of trouble!

(((HUGS)))
leafy

 

[svengandhi]

Defiant -

I am not so sure that your son's getting up to go out after being sick is not typical teen behavior. I have 4 sons. Number 3 is 19 and in general a good kid, HS grad, probably quitting CC after one semester, is a volunteer firefighter. Last week, he was feeling so sick that he actually called me at 3 AM - on the phone, when his bedroom is across the hall! - to come take care of him. He didn't go to school. A couple of hours later, he's on his way out of the house with Difficult Child and a bunch of their friends to play basketball! "I feel much better, mom" was all he said. Perhaps the good meal and the good company invigorated him enough so that he felt well enough to go out.

It's heartbreaking that these kids who are so bright and talented are their own worst enemies and the only prisoners they wind up taking are themselves.

Good luck.