Yes it is okay. And I do agree that if we didn't feel a sense of sadness and even failure, we should be looking a little inward ourselves.
Advice sought
- Thread starter Lovelife
- Start date
Apple, thank you very much for your kind message. It means a lot.
Malika
Well-Known Member
Lovelife, I just re-read your original post. Deeply troubled child, deeply troubled background, of course it would be foolish rather than optimistic to think that it could now "work" with another family. I will spare you another repetition of my word "sad"...
What will happen now? Is this boy currently living with you and how long for, as you have decided not to go ahead with the adoption? What is your next move in trying to get him some adequate form of care and help?
What will happen now? Is this boy currently living with you and how long for, as you have decided not to go ahead with the adoption? What is your next move in trying to get him some adequate form of care and help?
GoingNorth
Crazy Cat Lady
I hit all milestones on schedule or early except for walking. I walked late due to an incomplete hip socket on my right side. I made up for it by talking in complete sentences by the time I was 7mos old.
Most of my deficits from being premature are physical (vision, respiratory, etc) Nowadays, they would've given me medications to force my lungs to mature and sent me home as soon as I hit 4.5lbs and had recovered from a neonatal stroke (minor. I've got some foot drop and other minor stuff. I'd totally forgotten about it until my first brain MRI).
Back then, I had to wait until I hit 5.5lbs, my lungs were mature, and I was able to suckle.
Chilling. Just awful what you went thru
Wonderful post. The difference is, I don't believe this kiddo is "reachable". I sure hope I'm wrong, we WANT him to make it, but we can't help him get there. Not in 1 year, 3 years, 5 or even 10 I don't think.
BusynMember
Well-Known Member
The severity of our kids is due to YEARS of many unstable placements, probable abuse and the first three years being chaos.
GN, I had some attachment disorder too as my mother refused to hold and cuddle me. But I did have my grandma and, in the end, I can love. I didnt want to kill animals or sexually act out ir harm others. very different.
Our kids (OP and mine) can not love. They have rejected love. The majority of foster children who have been in multi family placements do very badly in the longrun. The first three years the brain becomes hardwired and its very hard to rewire it, especially if the child isnt interested in changing.
Malika, severe attachment disorder IS psychopathy. It is unsafe for them to be in the community. Many people who try to adopt older kids who have had many placements face this. True reactive attachment disorder is unusual in the control population, but it is NOT uncommon amongst older foster/adopted kids who have had many placements. In my adoptive parenting group I heard these stories all the time. If you have pets or other kids or one parent can't stay home with the child 24/7, it is almost possible to keep a child with no conscience in check. They need 24/7 supervision.
I am so afraid our boy, now 22, is abusing his daughters. They can not keep these people like our boy in treatment beyond age 18. God knows all he has done since then.
I doubt this now young man was treatable either
GN, I had some attachment disorder too as my mother refused to hold and cuddle me. But I did have my grandma and, in the end, I can love. I didnt want to kill animals or sexually act out ir harm others. very different.
Our kids (OP and mine) can not love. They have rejected love. The majority of foster children who have been in multi family placements do very badly in the longrun. The first three years the brain becomes hardwired and its very hard to rewire it, especially if the child isnt interested in changing.
Malika, severe attachment disorder IS psychopathy. It is unsafe for them to be in the community. Many people who try to adopt older kids who have had many placements face this. True reactive attachment disorder is unusual in the control population, but it is NOT uncommon amongst older foster/adopted kids who have had many placements. In my adoptive parenting group I heard these stories all the time. If you have pets or other kids or one parent can't stay home with the child 24/7, it is almost possible to keep a child with no conscience in check. They need 24/7 supervision.
I am so afraid our boy, now 22, is abusing his daughters. They can not keep these people like our boy in treatment beyond age 18. God knows all he has done since then.
I doubt this now young man was treatable either
Last edited:
BusynMember
Well-Known Member
by the way Malika, if you ever feel the urge (and only if) im sure some of us would love to hear about J. I thought you really were a very loving patient caring mom to a differently wired boy. A single mom too...not easy.
And hows that special doggy????
And hows that special doggy????
Malika
Well-Known Member
In fact (as always), things are more complex and less black and white than they might appear... People/experts disagree about exactly what Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD) is and why it arises, and not everybody likens it to psychopathy in the sense that some believe Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD) can be "cured" with the right support and treatment. I have done some research in the area but I cannot pretend to have a detailed knowledge... and not have I ever seen or met in the flesh a child who had the kind of stunted conscience and affect that is described in severe Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD).
As for J, he has been handicapped by my inability to find, despite quite intense trying in three countries, the right support and input for him. His behaviour has in some ways got worse and more intense but on the other hand, he begins to show insight into himself and his difficulties. He has begun to be able, in certain situations and if he sees the benefit in doing so, to control his emotions and his anger and to walk away rather than exploding. This is a glimmer of hope for the future.
As for J, he has been handicapped by my inability to find, despite quite intense trying in three countries, the right support and input for him. His behaviour has in some ways got worse and more intense but on the other hand, he begins to show insight into himself and his difficulties. He has begun to be able, in certain situations and if he sees the benefit in doing so, to control his emotions and his anger and to walk away rather than exploding. This is a glimmer of hope for the future.
BusynMember
Well-Known Member
I wish only the best for you and cute little J. And am happy he has insight. That wI'll help him.
I hope you eventually find help. Good to "see" you again
I hope you eventually find help. Good to "see" you again
Such a well written post Somewhere. Most people don't get it, heck we didn't even get it. We had talked with a Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD) therapist while transitioning this kiddo. She didn't lie about how hard it is, and the reality is they really never do get "better". They can learn to pretend and cope, but not much else. Very very sad. I am so sorry about your boy. That just has to really be killing you inside.
You are a very strong person Malika. You make excellent points. Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD) is indeed such a difficult "disorder". I don't think many understand it, and there is very little support and help for it. Most give the general diagnosis, ODD, ADHD, PTSD, etc. Our kid actually went thru an "attachment" program at a pretty young age, because it was noticed/assessed very early on that he really did not attach, nor had he ever attached to his mother. And, he absolutely has stunted conscience and affect.... he shows very little emotion (other than anger at times) and even fake cries to try to get what he wants. When hitting or being violent it has been noted many times that it is often out of the blue, and he usually has a smile on his face.
Malika
Well-Known Member
I don't mean to carp but it is being stated both that there is no hope for children affected with Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD), that their condition is immutable and dangerous, AND that by going to residential treatment, the boy will be helped and will have "hope". Which is actually felt to be true?
BusynMember
Well-Known Member
Malika, there is always hope. The problem seems to be that kids who suffer from abuse and extreme chaos in the first three years, and J. did not, learn as early as infancy that they only can trust themselves and their brain wiring changes. Since, as you said and you are right, nobody is 100% sure what it is and, more importantly, how to treat Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD), even going for help is not a guarantee. There are attachment clinics in the U. S. that have been shut down because the theory of "rebirthing" and restraining was proven abusive and a kid would get hurt. What to do?
Here comes my new son. He is 11. His birth mother almost killed him by feeding him water only. He had seizures, she left him with somebody and never returned, and the somebody called CPS.
Thus began his first rejection by birthmother, who didnt give him affection anyway, and he began a long list of uncaring homes in foster care, which kept rewiring his brain to only trust himself. He had been born with alcohol and drugs in his body already. Now this. He learned early to use fake hugs to maybe get a treat becsuse he didnt trust his caregivers and didnt want love. But he did want "stuff." So he learned early to fake love and also to steal. Too scary.
Along the way he was probably sexually abused. Before we adopted him, his caseworker told us that 99% of the older kids in our horrible foster care system are sexually abused.
Boy got angrier and angrier and, say, started killing frogs and punching kids and eventually forcing younger kids to have sex. It made him feel important and powerful. Somewhere in his five homes before us, he learned to hold a knife to a young child's throat and demand sex and to warn them that if they told on him, he'd burn their house down and kill them all.bTo the best of his recollection he was sexing on young kids, even babies, snd killing animals before age six. SIX!!!
Not one kid ever told on him in five homes. They were too afraid of him. He was as powerful as God to them...but in a devil's way (I am using religious analogy although I dont believe there is a devil...). The kids he lived with felt his body on theirs, the point of his knife, saw him strangling animals and setting fires. He also pooped and peeped all over. They saw. He made them watch him strangle the dog snd topd them they would be next if they told. They didnt tell. We thought maube an inlnown racist neighbor did it...three of my kids were black...and why would anyone strsngle our poor, brloved Prince? Guess who was smart enough to cry the hardest? This was the first thng he ever did that we saw, but we thought he was so sweet...to us, he was. So we didnt suspect him. This time.
He learned that acting nice to adults made him seem harmless, if a bit slow. He was far from slow.
By age 11, we had a child who could not love, but knew how to act to adults and that he could and to terrify children. Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD) symptoms in children are the symptoms of a psychpath. I heard this type of story over and over again from parents who had wanted to love an older child, to give him a chance to have a family. And it didn't normally work. Many were not quite as extreme as OPs boy or ours, but many were...and most were really bad experiences. Often the child himself left the afoptive home at 18 and went back to dysfunctional birth family. Many parents were so dog tired, they didnt care. They had done their best. The treatment isnt there, but the kids are also very often are a serious risk to society and need residential treatment. It is their last chance for help. Does it work?
I dont think it helped my kid, but it kept him from hurting others for a while and many professionals tried very hard to help him.
I hope he is no longer a sex offender since he has daughters now.
He has been in legal trouble. That I know. He is not working. It says unemployed on his Facebook page.
You tell me if there is hope because I truly don't know. I lean towards saying no, once a kid acts like this and is already five years old. But I think the older the child has gone without treatment, the worse it is. And if they sexually act out, they will not be allowed to live at home. This boy was actually tried in court for sexual abuse of a minor at age 13. The rule is you are tried if you acted out on a child six years younger than you, even if you are a child, so the county pressed charges and he was found guilty. He was then a registered sex offender.
I do not know if his name was removed from that list at a certain age like 18 or 21.
So can he be helped? I don't know. I'm afraid of him and hope he never finds us. I am not sure certain children who are this dangerous can ever be fixed, at least not yet.
Boy's diagnosis was severe reactive attachment disorder. That ended our adopting/foster care days. I do have three WONDERFUL adopted children who I would take a bullet for, but they all arrived as babies. I think it matters. I tell all prospective adoptive parents who ask me about it to adopt an infant. I warn people not to adopt older kids.
And that is my story, but I cant answer your question about if kids this dangerous can ever be saved. I would not take that chance again and dont advise anyone else to try it.
Here comes my new son. He is 11. His birth mother almost killed him by feeding him water only. He had seizures, she left him with somebody and never returned, and the somebody called CPS.
Thus began his first rejection by birthmother, who didnt give him affection anyway, and he began a long list of uncaring homes in foster care, which kept rewiring his brain to only trust himself. He had been born with alcohol and drugs in his body already. Now this. He learned early to use fake hugs to maybe get a treat becsuse he didnt trust his caregivers and didnt want love. But he did want "stuff." So he learned early to fake love and also to steal. Too scary.
Along the way he was probably sexually abused. Before we adopted him, his caseworker told us that 99% of the older kids in our horrible foster care system are sexually abused.
Boy got angrier and angrier and, say, started killing frogs and punching kids and eventually forcing younger kids to have sex. It made him feel important and powerful. Somewhere in his five homes before us, he learned to hold a knife to a young child's throat and demand sex and to warn them that if they told on him, he'd burn their house down and kill them all.bTo the best of his recollection he was sexing on young kids, even babies, snd killing animals before age six. SIX!!!
Not one kid ever told on him in five homes. They were too afraid of him. He was as powerful as God to them...but in a devil's way (I am using religious analogy although I dont believe there is a devil...). The kids he lived with felt his body on theirs, the point of his knife, saw him strangling animals and setting fires. He also pooped and peeped all over. They saw. He made them watch him strangle the dog snd topd them they would be next if they told. They didnt tell. We thought maube an inlnown racist neighbor did it...three of my kids were black...and why would anyone strsngle our poor, brloved Prince? Guess who was smart enough to cry the hardest? This was the first thng he ever did that we saw, but we thought he was so sweet...to us, he was. So we didnt suspect him. This time.
He learned that acting nice to adults made him seem harmless, if a bit slow. He was far from slow.
By age 11, we had a child who could not love, but knew how to act to adults and that he could and to terrify children. Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD) symptoms in children are the symptoms of a psychpath. I heard this type of story over and over again from parents who had wanted to love an older child, to give him a chance to have a family. And it didn't normally work. Many were not quite as extreme as OPs boy or ours, but many were...and most were really bad experiences. Often the child himself left the afoptive home at 18 and went back to dysfunctional birth family. Many parents were so dog tired, they didnt care. They had done their best. The treatment isnt there, but the kids are also very often are a serious risk to society and need residential treatment. It is their last chance for help. Does it work?
I dont think it helped my kid, but it kept him from hurting others for a while and many professionals tried very hard to help him.
I hope he is no longer a sex offender since he has daughters now.
He has been in legal trouble. That I know. He is not working. It says unemployed on his Facebook page.
You tell me if there is hope because I truly don't know. I lean towards saying no, once a kid acts like this and is already five years old. But I think the older the child has gone without treatment, the worse it is. And if they sexually act out, they will not be allowed to live at home. This boy was actually tried in court for sexual abuse of a minor at age 13. The rule is you are tried if you acted out on a child six years younger than you, even if you are a child, so the county pressed charges and he was found guilty. He was then a registered sex offender.
I do not know if his name was removed from that list at a certain age like 18 or 21.
So can he be helped? I don't know. I'm afraid of him and hope he never finds us. I am not sure certain children who are this dangerous can ever be fixed, at least not yet.
Boy's diagnosis was severe reactive attachment disorder. That ended our adopting/foster care days. I do have three WONDERFUL adopted children who I would take a bullet for, but they all arrived as babies. I think it matters. I tell all prospective adoptive parents who ask me about it to adopt an infant. I warn people not to adopt older kids.
And that is my story, but I cant answer your question about if kids this dangerous can ever be saved. I would not take that chance again and dont advise anyone else to try it.
Last edited:
Valid point. Many believe if a secure attachment is not formed by the age of 1.5, it never will be. By placing a kid in a group environment maybe that will indeed be "helpful" if nothing else other than providing them with a safe space where they are not expected to function at a "normal" level, other than obeying the rules. We don't know if "our" kid has Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD). Definitely attachment issues, but he "checks the boxes" on many other things too, and given the developmental delays, he could have co-morbid things as well.
GoingNorth
Crazy Cat Lady
Well, my insecure attachment means that it is extremely difficult for me to trust and be open with people. I find getting to that point to be exhausting sometimes, as well as frightening. Oftentimes I just don't bother.
However, neither my autism nor my bipolar have anything to do with that 6 weeks in NICU. Autism runs on both sides of my family. My bipolar is courtesy of my paternal line. My father and sister were/are bipolar.
I just screwed on the genetics there.
However, did I not have the trust issues, treatment of the autism and bipolar wouldn't have taken nearly as much time as they have.
However, neither my autism nor my bipolar have anything to do with that 6 weeks in NICU. Autism runs on both sides of my family. My bipolar is courtesy of my paternal line. My father and sister were/are bipolar.
I just screwed on the genetics there.
However, did I not have the trust issues, treatment of the autism and bipolar wouldn't have taken nearly as much time as they have.
BusynMember
Well-Known Member
They know. They want to place the kids to get them out of the system and so that tje parents pay, not them. They don't care about the kids or the families, at least not in the U.S. We got no support at all.
KIDS who hurt people and animals should not be placed in homes. But they are.
KIDS who hurt people and animals should not be placed in homes. But they are.
GoingNorth
Crazy Cat Lady
Actually, agencies actively not only lie, but conspire across agencies to cover up issues with these kids, especially that kids have failed foster care placements, etc.
In the case of infants, you may not be told that the birthmother abused alcohol or other drugs during her pregnancy, or that she was mentally ill, or intellectually disabled. Even less information is available about birth fathers.
My husband and I looked into adopting while in Germany, after we found out that my infertility couldn't be treated there. I was able to get ahold of several German studies on adoption outcomes, and (In German, no less!) a couple of American and UK studies.
Knowing that we couldn't afford to adopt privately, or use a surrogate (husband was so fertile he could've been turned out to stud), we knew we would most likely wind up raising a compromised child which would've been very difficult with the limited support the DoD provided to families with children with mental or neurobiological illnesses. It also would've ended husband's career when his next re-up came around.
The information I gathered on public adoptions during that time period was enough to turn me off of adoption, despite all heartwarming stories the kindly nuns at the orphanages kept telling me.
In the case of infants, you may not be told that the birthmother abused alcohol or other drugs during her pregnancy, or that she was mentally ill, or intellectually disabled. Even less information is available about birth fathers.
My husband and I looked into adopting while in Germany, after we found out that my infertility couldn't be treated there. I was able to get ahold of several German studies on adoption outcomes, and (In German, no less!) a couple of American and UK studies.
Knowing that we couldn't afford to adopt privately, or use a surrogate (husband was so fertile he could've been turned out to stud), we knew we would most likely wind up raising a compromised child which would've been very difficult with the limited support the DoD provided to families with children with mental or neurobiological illnesses. It also would've ended husband's career when his next re-up came around.
The information I gathered on public adoptions during that time period was enough to turn me off of adoption, despite all heartwarming stories the kindly nuns at the orphanages kept telling me.
One day husband and I were talking about so many of the wonderful teens in our church heading on to college, or volunteering in other areas of the US or around the world. And ours was struggling to just get thru high school. Then I made a startling realization... Our kids were adopted, and had a mom who used alcohol and drugs and had a history of mental illness.
Then I realized at church, the couple who adopted two children from Colombia had many struggles , esp with their daughter thru high school and young adulthood. An older single mom who was well educated and taught at college, had a daughter that failed to launch, or even get her drivers license. She adopted the girl as an infant who was born addicted to cocaine.
Another couple was unable to have children and adopted two boys who seemed like they did well when younger, but as adults one is divorced and has no contact with his child, the other struggles with legal problems due to substance abuse, married a woman with addiction problems, had a child, and now his parents are raising that child.
It seems like the adopted children had more struggles with relationships, following thru with education or careers and having a purpose for their lives. Certainly, this can't all be a coincidence...the unknown factors of prenatal care, family history, broken relationships must affect the out come some what. I know, not always, but more than I was aware of before we adopted our granddaughters.
Ksm
Then I realized at church, the couple who adopted two children from Colombia had many struggles , esp with their daughter thru high school and young adulthood. An older single mom who was well educated and taught at college, had a daughter that failed to launch, or even get her drivers license. She adopted the girl as an infant who was born addicted to cocaine.
Another couple was unable to have children and adopted two boys who seemed like they did well when younger, but as adults one is divorced and has no contact with his child, the other struggles with legal problems due to substance abuse, married a woman with addiction problems, had a child, and now his parents are raising that child.
It seems like the adopted children had more struggles with relationships, following thru with education or careers and having a purpose for their lives. Certainly, this can't all be a coincidence...the unknown factors of prenatal care, family history, broken relationships must affect the out come some what. I know, not always, but more than I was aware of before we adopted our granddaughters.
Ksm
