Advise Please From Wise Parents

[Albatross]

OMG. Are there instructions for them? "If parents do not respond immediately-RAMP it up a few notches."

With a d.c., every day is like Halloween between the bloody assaults, huge gashes and amputations.

So true--we don't. Our variation of "not my monkeys, not my circus" is "you can get the monkey off your back but the circus never leaves town".

I love this, Ready!

I used to let my mind run wild thinking of all the horrible scenarios that could happen to my son while being homeless. I came to realize that this was very unhealthy for me. I was robbing myself of precious energy. All my worrying and visualizing would not change one thing for my son. I realized that anyone of the horrible scenarios could very well happen. I didn't like it but once I accepted it for what it is I was able to move on and let go of all the fear and anxiety that went with it.

Thank you, Tanya. I needed so, so much to hear this today. I don't know why *this* time hit me so hard, when he has done similar or worse things so many times before.

Thank you very much for the replies. It helps so much to know I have people to talk to about this sh...tuff.

 

[SeekingStrength]

The only time I would hear from my son was when he wanted something from me. I never get a call, text, or PM on FB to just say "hey mom thinking about you"

As long as our d_c's continue to put their drugs first we the parents will only be acknowledged when they want something, usually money.

yes. and, we finally catch on. It is not fine, but it certainly helps us with how we respond.

Thank you, Tanya. I needed so, so much to hear this today. I don't know why *this* time hit me so hard, when he has done similar or worse things so many times before.

Is this not the truth? I say this to husband all the time, "Hey, we've been through worse!!!!". Maybe, because a few months have gone by? No idea, but sometimes this stuff just takes the wind out of us...again....even after years of experience.

 

[savior no more]

With a d.c., every day is like Halloween between the bloody assaults, huge gashes and amputations.

I relate to your son ramping it up. He lost so many phones, debit cards, and ID's that it wasn't even funny. He did get hoodwinked out of a new phone once at the drivers license place. Many times my son was REALLY was beat up and left to die or ended up overdosed in the ER, but truthfully there isn't one thing I can do to change his situation. Only he can change it. God knows I've tried every which way. I'm sorry you have the same child as I but I take great comfort in knowing that I'm not alone.

 

[Lil]

It wasn't just a robbery, his "pulse stopped" and he almost died. He isn't sure how much longer he has, but if he dies with no ID he isn't sure they will be able to tell us.

He doesn't know what he did but can't talk to us anymore.

He won't have access to internet or a phone anymore.

He will try to survive as long as he can.

He hopes we have awesome lives.

The calls came from a cell phone with an IL area code. He was on FB most of the evening.

Albie, I'm so sorry...I read this stuff and wonder what I'd do. I know how I'd feel. I know how horrible it would be. I feel for you...I really do.

But, since it's NOT me and I have the luxury of being just an on-looker, my thoughts to his statements are: "Find a sharpie and write your name and address on yourself with an emergency contact number so they know who to contact if you are dead or unresponsive" "If you have a way to text, you have a way to call the police or an ambulance if you are in danger of dying." "If you have the ability to be on Facebook, you have a computer and WiFi and thus the ability to contact the police if you are in danger of dying or to find shelters if you are not in danger of dying." "If you are sick or in danger of dying, call the police or go to a hospital." "If you are not actually in danger of dying, go to a shelter and ask for help."

One time when my son called to tell me had been robbed I told him "now you know how dad and I felt all times you stole from us" He called me an F*^&%#@ B*^%# and hung up on me.

Yeah...I don't remember the context but once I was in the car with our son and something was said about people stealing from him and I made a comment about the irony of the situation.

He was unimpressed to say the least.

 

[Jabberwockey]

Yeah...I don't remember the context but once I was in the car with our son and something was said about people stealing from him and I made a comment about the irony of the situation.

This was when he was still in the slum apartment and the guy he got arrested with for shoplifting from Wal-Mart stole some of his and K's stuff. I remember you telling me about this particular conversation.

 

[Copabanana]

Albatross. I am sorry I missed your thread until now.

he was robbed and has no phone, no driver's license, no social security card.

My son used to play the drama queen card: Stabbed and hospitalized for emergency surgery was one that stands out in my memory. Until I posted a thread and 2 dozen mothers across the globe responded they had gotten the same story, so I could stop hyperventilating.

his "pulse stopped" and he almost died. He isn't sure how much longer he has, but if he dies with no ID he isn't sure they will be able to tell us.

The cruelty of this, would almost make me want to turn away and let him stew in this cruel cauldron that he has prepared to hurt you.

He hopes we have awesome lives.

And this...is vicious. Obviously this attack and robbery unfortunately has not given him humility or compassion or empathy or lessened his blood lust.

Albatross, he has to be stopped from hurting the mother who loves him with all her heart and soul. You must make yourself safe from him. He should never be allowed to hurt you like this. There needs to be a consequence that is stunning in its effect, where he comes up against stone and iron and black empty space if he ever conceives of hurting you like this again.

There is no room here to think of what he needs or lacks. This is only about you now--protecting yourself. Making the strongest and most impermeable boundary. Your only failing was to love him with all your heart. The love continues. But he cannot be allowed to hurt you. That is what I think.

 

[Albatross]

Thank you, Copa.

I do not believe there was really a robbery. He has used this story before. Really, that makes it worse, doesn't it?

It is beyond ridiculously childish and vindictive for a 23-year-old. It is hateful. Really, what kind of person does this?!

If it were anyone else's son, I know exactly how I would feel. I would be a very uncomplicated kind of furious. I would rush to that parent's protection and give that ungrateful and mean-spirited man-child a piece of my mind. I would advocate not having any contact at all with someone who could be so cruel. I would probably find some dark humor in the situation too.

But I still wake up in the middle of the night wondering if he is all right, if he is warm, if he is passed out and someone is robbing him, or worse.

I have both of those feelings going on at once, the urge to punch him in the face REALLY HARD if he dares show up in my life again...AND the urge to help him find his way back from this broken place he is in.

I know I am not the one to help him find his way back from anywhere. If I was, I certainly would have done it by now.

I also know that in all likelihood his disappearing from FB since his parting shots Saturday is by design. He is in punishment mode. I FEAR otherwise, but I have felt that fear before, for nothing. Yes, he has done this before.

My heart is in a very, very dark place right now.

I am not proud to say this, but it is crossing my emotional landscape that perhaps I don't want to have much to do with someone like this anymore.

For anyone else in this situation, I believe I would say it is more than justified, but I am not sure how I feel about being that person.

I am also not sure how much of this is his addiction. I have known a fair number of alcoholics and have not known any who could be so freakin' mean. But they were all functional; I haven't known any who were in survival mode. It is self-imposed survival mode, but still...

He puts himself into impossible situations that force choices that in his mind justify him trampling on other people.

Is it his alcoholism, or is it him?

It occurred to me last night the ramifications of not seeing a SOBER difficult child for 10 years. 10 years!!! He has not been sober for any period longer than a month or so since...he was 13 years old!

How much does a person change between the age of 13 and 23?

I realized that means I don't know who he is. I don't know the man he has become. I truly don't know.

I am trying another idea on, to see how I feel about it.

Perhaps I need to know who he is, SOBER, before I know whether or not I even want to be part of his life.

I am wondering if that is reasonable, to say that I don't want to hear from him at all, until he has been clean and sober and self-supporting for a year, and then we will see how it goes.

Is that reasonable?

Then I realize that he hasn't contacted us, and WON'T contact us, unless he wants something, so I am worrying about nothing.

Perhaps I already know the answer to my question about who he is, and I just don't want to face the truth of what is. Perhaps all of this is just my way of trying to feel like I have some control over how much this wrecks me.

I am in a very lost place right now.

 

[Lil]

If it were anyone else's son, I know exactly how I would feel. I would be a very uncomplicated kind of furious. I would rush to that parent's protection and give that ungrateful and mean-spirited man-child a piece of my mind. I would advocate not having any contact at all with someone who could be so cruel. I would probably find some dark humor in the situation too.

But I still wake up in the middle of the night wondering if he is all right, if he is warm, if he is passed out and someone is robbing him, or worse.

Oh Albie, I just want to grab you and hug you and tell you it'll be alright. I want to MAKE it alright! I wish with all my heart I could help you, because you sound so much like me. I am that way with just the little trouble and hurt that my son causes us and I know exactly how I'd feel in your place, because I feel it even now.

I can offer nothing more than prayers and a virtual shoulder.

I'm so sorry.

 

[InsaneCdn]

How much does a person change between the age of 13 and 23?

I realized that means I don't know who he is. I don't know the man he has become

Normally, there is a HUGE development curve between 13 and 23. But. That assumes "normal" development.

Addictions tend to delay development. If they get clean/sober, after a few years, some of that missing development catches up.

It is likely that he is developmentally stunted at this point. Most of what you see is the addict (even if it's alcohol, its still addiction), not the real person.

I don't think it's unreasonable to not want anything to do with the addict. Once the real person shows up and does a bit of growing up... then you can evaluate.

 

[Albatross]

I received a voicemail from a deputy today, originating near the city where d.c. last said he was. husband returned the call. The deputy said that d.c. was picked up for hitchhiking and had no phone and no identification, and he wanted to verify d.c.'s story, which is that he has been stranded and we won't help him and he is trying to get to Denver. He told husband that d.c. has "fallen on hard times, is working odd jobs and has only $20 on him."

husband told the deputy that all of that sounds true, and that it is true that we will not give d.c. any financial help. husband told a brief summary of the back story since the last time we "helped" d.c.

The deputy asked if d.c. has a criminal record, and husband said he does not.

The deputy said that he had kids of his own and said, "I know this is really hard stuff. He again said that d.c. is "pretty hard up," and said that he could give d.c. a place to sleep tonight but after that he was on his own.

husband agreed that it is indeed really hard stuff. He told the deputy that d.c. needs to work through this, that he has some stuff to work through, but it all starts with quitting drinking. That everyone in his life has told him he needs to quit drinking, but he believes he does not. husband told him that all of our help only seems to help d.c. continue drinking, so we aren't going to help him anymore.

He told the deputy that we have been dealing with this for a very long time.

The deputy asked, "If d.c. calls you, will you pick up the phone?"

husband answered, "Honestly, at this point we don't know."

And that was the end of the conversation.

Difficult Child has not called, although he has been on FB most of the afternoon and into the evening. I have not initiated a conversation, nor has he. He has not tried to call us.

He has been on FB every day, most days several times a day, since he "got stranded." How does he do this with no phone?

I am glad to know he is all right and has a safe place to sleep tonight. I agree with everything husband told the deputy.

I am not sure if d.c. asked the deputy to call, or if the deputy was just verifying his story since he has no ID.

Your thoughts?

 

[SeekingStrength]

Hi Alby,

My thinking is that this is the really difficult part, where you are not enabling and waiting on your D C to make a change. The most difficult part for all of you.

That has never happened long with us, because our Difficult Child always found another enabler. There is some evidence that my parents are ready to stop helping Difficult Child, so husband and I may well be faced with a similar scenario before long. (Best for Difficult Child, but it is bound to be brutal, as it sounds for you right now).

The deputy sounds like a very decent human. My Difficult Child has been in trouble with the law more than once. Talking with kindly sounding law enforcement folks always gave me a moment of hope. Of course, those conversations never changed anything, but were a respite from the many who had seen a lot and seemed quick to "set me straight" as far as Difficult Child's future.

And, unfortunately, so far....the more negative ones appear to have been correct in their assumptions.

Another reason I think the stopping the enabling is our one hope. I may be wrong, but I have that hope.

 

[New Leaf]

I am glad to know he is all right and has a safe place to sleep tonight. I agree with everything husband told the deputy.

I am not sure if d.c. asked the deputy to call, or if the deputy was just verifying his story since he has no ID.

Your thoughts?

Ugh. Today I ran into a gal I know that works for the victim advocacy in the prosecutors office. She was at court when Rain was there testifying against the lowlife that beat her. "How is your daughter?" she asked, "Is she safe?"
I replied "I do not know."
The look on her face was.......well......how do I put this.....stunned....aghast....?
I could see the tape running.......how can you not help your child?
I don't know if she has been exposed in her own personal life to the chaos and degradation of addiction, the danger of having actively addicted adult children at home, the agony and years of desperately trying to find a solution, that lead up to the realization that helping does not help until an adult child wants to choose differently.

I have both of those feelings going on at once, the urge to punch him in the face REALLY HARD if he dares show up in my life again...AND the urge to help him find his way back from this broken place he is in.

Me too, I am sorry Albie, all of this is just so friggin frustrating. If I don't end up in the gauldurn looney bin it it will be a miracle. I just want to shake both of my two, shouting "Wake up! Wake up for God's sake wake up and do something positive for yourself!

I know I am not the one to help him find his way back from anywhere. If I was, I certainly would have done it by now.

Again, me too. I am not the one. It's been 20 years for me with Rain. Most times, it has ended up with her blaming it all on me. If I am that bad, I am certainly not the one to help.

I FEAR otherwise, but I have felt that fear before, for nothing. Yes, he has done this before.

Before, and before and before. It is pretty calculating and premeditated really, when you think of it. They know just how to get our heads spinning, just enough to keep us in that place, see sawing between standing strong, fearing that our stance will lead to........the worst case scenario. It is a crazy making game.
I don't want to be a pawn. We are really victims in this, too. Targets. UGH.

I am wondering if that is reasonable, to say that I don't want to hear from him at all, until he has been clean and sober and self-supporting for a year, and then we will see how it goes.

I am at the point where I think it is very reasonable. I am worn out. Clean and sober and self supporting for a year. Yes.

Perhaps I already know the answer to my question about who he is, and I just don't want to face the truth of what is. Perhaps all of this is just my way of trying to feel like I have some control over how much this wrecks me.

I am in a very lost place right now.

Me too, Albie. In a lost place. It is bizarre how this whole journey just puts us on a parallel emotional course with our d cs. One episode to the next, we are synchronistically dancing to this macabre music trying our best to keep from tripping and falling. Trying to keep our heads above water and work, live, carry on, all the while the damn music keeps playing.......softly in the distance when there is no contact, blaring when contact or news jars us back to the cold hard reality that our d cs are out there going from one high and crazy chapter to the next.
I am so so tired of the dance.
I am sorry Albie, for the lost feeling and intense ache of this. It is a hard place to be. I am sending big big hugs and wishes for us both to find the strength. It is because we have absolutely no control over any of it.
None. Zip. Zilch.
And so, we must find the extraordinary courage that it takes for warrior sisters as we are, to take in a deep breath and begin again to build. To find our way out of the lost place, despite what our d cs are doing.
We are worth it.
By living our lives out of the chasm, this void, this pit, we are examples to our d cs that they are worth it too. That they can climb up and out.
That we will not be dragged down in there with them, is the best way to show them, that they are worth it. We are battling not only for ourselves, but for them, too. Every time we say by our words and our actions that we will not put up with the nonsense, we are showing them that these choices are unacceptable. That they have potential and purpose.
You got this Albie.
You will be okay.
And so will I.
(((HUGS)))
Leafy

 

[so ready to live]

Oh Albie-I'm so sorry.

all of our help only seems to help d.c. continue drinking, so we aren't going to help him anymore.

Your hubs handled this so well... give him a big hug from us all!

The deputy asked, "If d.c. calls you, will you pick up the phone?"
husband answered, "Honestly, at this point we don't know."

Also great answer. We too have come across such compassionate law enforcement people, they've heard it before. (I'm sure they heard it at 2am at my house after we had to call them to remove drunk/drugged angry, violent son) I sat on front step crying, telling officer how sorry I was as they wrestled him to ground to handcuff and take to 72 hr detention-awful to experience in every respect and all I could do was wonder how in the world we ended up there?

Every time we say by our words and our actions that we will not put up with the nonsense, we are showing them that these choices are unacceptable. That they have potential and purpose.

Leafy's right, and every time it's hard. I thought "the not putting up with nonsense" would get easier but it hasn't for us, not easier but more routine.

It is bizarre how this whole journey just puts us on a parallel emotional course with our d cs.

It is parallel-once (once again) our son was taken to jail the night before we were supposed to leave for vacation, DUI, acting the fool....My hubby told officer " we leave for 1 wk for cabin in smokies tomorrow, and we're going. You can release him whenever, he can walk wherever...we are just so tired of it all" It wasn't a great time away, but we went and sometimes when I handed hubs that frozen drink with umbrella in it I thought do we drink to forget that he does?

I too find it weird that your son was on FB, even had $20 on him, he got robbed but they left him a twenty?....did you wonder if it was really a deputy or just a scam? It's so crying wolf over and over, isn't it? How to know the truth? Our truth is that it doesn't matter, true or not, we have to respond the same way for their good and our own.
Be gentle with yourself today. You are a good mom. Prayers.

 

[Childofmine]

Oh Alb...big hugs for you and your husband. What a life we lead here.

I agree 100 percent and have been right here.

I have had so many interactions with compassionate law enforcement people where I stood/sat and sobbed while they tried to deal with Difficult Child, often putting him in handcuffs right there and putting him in the patrol car.

They understand. They have seen it all and get the horrible situation we are in. It sounds like this guy is a good guy, and if he gives Difficult Child a night, then good. So be it.

I so agree that it's not going to be us, at this point, who extends the hand that truly helps them more forward. Like you said, if it was to be, through us, it would have been already.

Regarding the FB, Difficult Child, when he had nothing, would message me via FB. He would borrow someone's phone or computer or go to the library and use theirs (until he got kicked out of there too, finally)...that is the best thing about FB, providing that conduit, I think.

Bless your sweet husband for each and every one of his honest answers to that police officer. I pray so fervently right now that your son reaches yet another intersection in his life where he has a clear choice to go in one direction or another...and he takes the path of change.

I am right now talking with a longtime friend who is in an awful (very fast) marriage to an out of control alcoholic. Her kids and his kids are witnessing all of the rage and abuse and out of control behavior by him, with the alcohol...and by her...with her denial and crazy thinking that she can save him/fix him/butsheloveshim/he'ssonicewhenhe'snotdrinking...on and on and on.

I have suggested that she go to Al-Anon but she doesn't and she hasn't and that's okay. Her choice. The only thing keeping her moving slowly in a straight line away from him is the idea that she is going to lose her own kids if she keeps them around him.

Alcohol and drugs and addiction is so harmful. So awful. So brutal to all involved. People don't get the insidiousness of the disease, the stinking thinking and behavior that is truly the bigger issue than the alcohol itself. The grandiosity, the denial, the love affair with the alcohol. "But I love him..." well Okay, but he can't love you. His #1 is the alcohol and believe me, you don't rank anywhere near that, and never will as long as he is drinking.

I have heard many women in Al-Anon talk about being able to live with active alcoholism because of their commitment to working the Al-Anon principles. I could never get to that point. Once I realized that although my ex-husband had quit drinking (for more than a year) but nothing had changed in his thinking and behavior...I had nothing left. AFter years and years and years...I just couldn't do it anymore.

It's so sad and so tragic. Your son is younger. I hope and pray so very much that he hits a bottom here and can stop drinking and start living and get healthy in his mind and body and spirit.

You are doing the right thing, in my humble opinion. He has to want to stop. And then he has to do the work to stop. He is not a bad person. He is a sick person.

I am sitting here empathizing so very much. It brings my whole story back up to me.

The warmest of hugs this morning. Hang in there, Alb.

 

[Jabberwockey]

He has been on FB every day, most days several times a day, since he "got stranded." How does he do this with no phone?

If it was an older officer, having a smart phone with no minutes would equal no phone. A lot of the older generation don't realize that you can use a smart phone with no minutes to get on the internet, fb, e-mail and such when you have wi-fi access. I found this out myself when I looked at my old smart phone (using it as an mp3 player) and realized that the e-mail was current.

I am not sure if d.c. asked the deputy to call, or if the deputy was just verifying his story since he has no ID.

Your thoughts?

Honestly? This could go either way. Someone else has suggested that it wasn't even a police officer that called. Easy way to verify that is, if you remember the officer's name, to call that PD and ask to be put in touch with that officer. You could also wait a few days and call the number back that your husband talked on. If he answers and isn't a cop, its doubtful he will remember to keep playing the part. If no answer, listen to what the message says.

 

[RN0441]

Albatross

So sorry for this turmoil you are going through, hoping beyond all hope that your son finds his way.

You've come too far to turn back now. If you do now, then what is next step?

I told my son the same thing Friday by text. To contact me when he has decided to change for real, for good. Then we can talk. In the meantime he can talk to his dad. His dad has set many conditions for him.

I think we have gone past the unconditional love that we have for our children to conditional love. I heave never heard of that before but I don't think we coined the phrase.

We are all trying things that we have never tried before. To see if any of it works or makes a difference. It probably won't but if it does that would be life changing for all of us.

 

[Jabberwockey]

I think we have gone past the unconditional love that we have for our children to conditional love. I heave never heard of that before but I don't think we coined the phrase.

Love should always be unconditional. Assistance however???? Another creature entirely. Just because you love someone doesn't mean you're willing to finance their illegal or lazy lifestyle. Just because you love someone doesn't mean you have to tolerate them stealing from you and violating your home.

 

[RN0441]

Okay maybe replace "love" with "support". My son has to know that a relationship with his family is based on the fact that he meet certain conditions. That is where we are right now.

I think the only type of love that is truly unconditional is the love a parent has for their child.

Personally I do not have anyone else in my life that can do ANYTHING they want to me, hurt me etc. that I still would feel unconditional love for.

 

[Jabberwockey]

That's what I meant RN, just wasn't specific enough. And yes, even unconditional love doesn't ensure a relationship. This is especially true when that relationship becomes destructive to either party.

 

[Albatross]

I am overwhelmed with the wisdom and kindness here. I wish I could respond more in depth right now, but it is a typical busy Monday at work. I shared your responses with husband, who was feeling a little ambivalent about the conversation. Your comments have helped both of us. Thank you so much.