Advise Please From Wise Parents

[Copabanana]

That is what the blocking from FB and all of the remarks are. Trying to stimulate a response and reaction from you.

When I was maybe 14 I was eavesdropping on a conversation of my mother and a neighbor. For some reason I felt called to contribute to the conversation with a comment about stimulated wood (i.e. the kind that others refer to as simulated.)

Forever I am stuck in a kind of echo chamber of these two words.

That is all it is and nothing more alb.

So, now, 50 years later, I have found a context that my echo chamber can contain.

These stimulated conversations are in fact simulated or pseudo conversations. These words imply similar but important distinctions in their connotations. Simulated, implies manufactured. Pseudo is fake, phony, deceitful.

I knew I had heard the term "pseudo conversation." And here it is, from the Cobol computer programming language:

In transaction processing, a pseudoconversational transaction is a type of transaction that emulates a true conversation in an interactive session. To the end user, it appears as though the program has simply "paused" to request further input, whereas in reality, most resources are released while the input is waiting to be received.

Parents, we are the end users of the conversation which emulates a true conversation. In reality, these kinds of conversations with our children are instrumental actions, whose intent to act upon an object. The object is you. While it appears the program has simply paused to request further input from you...it would be false to assume that there are resources (committed to further communication on the part of our children).

It is the response to which COM refers that is the product they seek. No different than a slot machine or an ATM. They operate on us in these interactions which are interactive only in that they send information to us to produce in us a result. It is the simulation of true interaction. Our participation was only as recipient.

 

[Albatross]

Parents, we are the end users of the conversation which emulates a true conversation. In reality, these kinds of conversations with our children are instrumental actions, whose intent to act upon an object. The object is you. While it appears the program has simply paused to request further input from you...it would be false to assume that there are resources (committed to further communication on the part of our children).

It is the response to which COM refers that is the product they seek. No different than a slot machine or an ATM. They operate on us in these interactions which are interactive only in that they send information to us to produce in us a result. It is the simulation of true interaction. Our participation was only as recipient.

OOOH, yeah. And when I think of the barrage of messages that continued to escalate because of the object's (my) failure to provide the expected result, I picture one of those old cartoons, where the machine overheats and explodes or smoke bellows out of both of Wile E. Coyote's ears.

 

[Albatross]

I have spent the entire day feeling guilty, worthless and filled with profound regret that I didn't tell you I loved you before you blocked us on FB.

Regreat that you might be dead, or that I would never speak to you again and you wouldn't know I love you.

Most days, as the day goes on, I move from regret and worthlessness to anger, but my first thought, every morning, is you. My thoughts even before I wake up are of you.

Are you all right? Where are you sleeping? Are you warm? Are you hungry? Are you safe?

What do you think of when you first wake up in the morning?

When is the last time you thought of us at all, once we told you we wouldn't send you money? Once you told me I was evil? Once you told me we would never know if you lived or died?

Do you regret that?

Do you regret telling your sister to consider you dead?

Do you feel wronged by us, or do you just not think of us at all?

 

[Childofmine]

Oh Alb...warm hugs for your very tender heart for your precious son. I can totally relate to everything you wrote here. I pray that he is safe somewhere and that, some way some how, someone reaches out to him in kindness and offers that hand up that is best coming from someone other than us, their moms. Hang in there. Every question here is one of care and love and we do support you and care about you. And him.

 

[Copabanana]

Albatross. This breaks my heart. You with a broken heart.

OMG, he knows you love him--with every fiber of his being. He is soaked in it. That is half the problem--he cannot push himself beyond a dyad with you--to grow up. Because your love for him, yours and his Dad was so sweet.

In the past few months, when the subject of love came up with my son--he expressed his great pain that I believed he did not love me. He said he never stopped loving me. That he loved me. That he did not love himself, and could not see beyond this.

Albatross. Do you see why I do what I do? Why I keep trying? I cannot bear how you feel. How it feels to let my son go. For those four plus years I cut out my own heart in order to tolerate pushing him away. Oh how I hate this. For you, for me, for all of us.

I would feel like climbing into the car (except I am afraid to drive) and going to look for him. We have done that more than once. Many times more. Gone up and down the streets. If my son was on the road--I would want to go town to town. Feeling Sad did that when her paranoid schizophrenic son was homeless in Seattle. She went there, states away from home and she walked the streets.

I wonder how she is. Because now she has the restraining order.

I think I will fix a gin and tonic. Or two. I am so sorry, Albatross.

 

[Albatross]

He called today and said he is staying with "some cool people" he met.

I told him we were glad he called, and that I felt bad for not telling him I loved him after the last messages he sent but I was very angry. He said he was angry too and was sorry for saying those things, that he didn't mean them.

I told him that the reason we won't send him money isn't because of our "yuppy" lifestyle or that we enjoy seeing him suffer, it's because we can't live with being the ones to help him self-destruct. That we won't help him do that.

He said, "It's funny, but when I'm out here...I can't talk freely because there are a couple of other guys here...but when I'm out here I'm not...I can't do that, not as much. I don't know where my next meal's coming from, I don't know where I'm going to sleep, but God's good to me when my life is like this, Mom. I need to live like this. I don't know why, but I do."

I told him that we just wanted him to be safe and happy, and to let us know how he is doing from time to time, and he said he would.

Then we chatted a little bit about places he was going to see. He went on a tirade about a friend he feels didn't treat him right, and I didn't respond to that. Then we chatted some more about this and that. Then he said he wanted to get a job, but he couldn't without his ID and social security card. I again told him I would send him his birth certificate so he could get them.

(The last messages we exchanged were about replacing his ID, but he pivoted to trying to get a bus ticket and I wouldn't do that, so he got mean and I stopped responding.)

Anyway, I told him today I would send his birth certificate and he said he would call me with the address he's at. It might be BS because he hasn't called, but who knows?

Then he said, "Don't worry about me, Mom. I'm fine. I'm where I want to be. This is where I'm happy." I was pretty choked up and said, "Thank you for telling me that." He said, "I love you guys," I said, "We love you too," and that was it.

 

[New Leaf]

Oh Albie I am glad you were able to talk with your son, to know he is okay, to tell him you love him. It is interesting that he said he is where he needs to be and happy. I suppose it is somewhat adventurous? Living an unconventional life. I wonder about my Rain, living in the park just drifting from one thing to another. I think of it as beyond rock bottom, but she hasn't made steps to change her situation. So there it is.
I hope you feel a bit better now after speaking with him.
(((Hugs)))
Leafy

 

[Copabanana]

Well, Albatross. You got to tell him you love him, and hear him tell you true words, that he loves you. (Can I say, I told you so?)

that he didn't mean them.

(Can I say it again?)

it's because we can't live with being the ones to help him self-destruct.

This is the true, true thing and where I am too. Are all of us united in this one true spot--the telephone booth of heartbreak.

God's good to me when my life is like this, Mom. I need to live like this. I don't know why, but I do."

Now, what in the world does this mean? Is it some vagabond fantasy? Like he is hopping freight trains? On the Road Again? Lonesome Cowboy?

Is it post-modern Haight Ashbury or Woodstock?

Is he searching for himself or running away? Is he leaving someplace on a Jet Plane or going towards his destiny?

Why oh why does he have to make it so hard? Does he know? Or is it not so hard for him--just for us.

I was pretty choked up and said, "Thank you for telling me that." He said, "I love you guys," I said, "We love you too," and that was it.

This sounded healthy however much we may be scratching our heads so hard they bleed.

Is he having fun? Is this what this is about? Fun. Call me confused.

So, Albatross--he really left you no role. He is not reaching out to return or change. On the contrary he is defining himself, his place--as different. So maybe that is what it is about. Different from you--husband and you--the anti-yuppy life.

If it is that he is individuating, but using geographical and lifestyle differences to do it, instead of psychological and social ones--such as maturity and college, for example.

The generation of my grandparents must have done this--leaving Russia or Scotland, for example. Perhaps their parents were equally horrified.

If we look at in this context, it is understandable. I just hope we all survive it.

 

[savior no more]

Don't worry about me, Mom. I'm fine. I'm where I want to be. This is where I'm happy." I was pretty choked up and said, "Thank you for telling me that." He said, "I love you guys," I said, "We love you too," and that was it.

Oh my, this brought tears to my eyes and remembrance of those poignant times when my son was on the lamb when he would call from some odd random number as I was desperately wanting to hear from him. You know what for me is the most frustrating part of this type of relationship is the insecurity of it all. The being held hostage to the uncertainty - and to the infinite space of the brief interludes of "I love and care for you". These are the gut wrenching stories of acceptance.

 

[Copabanana]

These are the gut wrenching stories of acceptance.

savior. What do you mean by this? I am hoping if I understand this, I might feel some peace.

 

[savior no more]

savior. What do you mean by this? I am hoping if I understand this, I might feel some peace.

What I mean by this is that this is the space of deep pain which can be transcended into acceptance. The way I see it is that the illusion of happily every after with most of our Difficult Child's may not ever exist. But what does and is real are the times of love shared. Those are just ever bit as real as the moments of anger or sheer terror. The words we write to each other here on this board are the reality of what is occurring. Acceptance for me comes when I just state the facts without any judgement attached and with the knowledge that my acceptance truly doesn't alter life's happenings. What acceptance does for me is to release the hold it has on my thoughts and feelings. I can do this for the most part but when I can't and I get in pain and fear, then I can at least acknowledge it here and then by sheer tiredness be "gut wrenched" into acceptance. This probably is a bunch of esoteric musings, but sometimes I have to do this to get out of the emotions. This can also be a bad thing for me as I can deny my feelings easily.

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

Anyway, I told him today I would send his birth certificate and he said he would call me with the address he's at. It might be BS because he hasn't called, but who knows?

Then he said, "Don't worry about me, Mom. I'm fine. I'm where I want to be. This is where I'm happy." I was pretty choked up and said, "Thank you for telling me that." He said, "I love you guys," I said, "We love you too," and that was it.

I loved this post. The love in it. "Thank you for telling me that."

Possible to send only a copy of the Birth Certificate, Albatross? If you do send the original, is it possible for you to obtain a notarized copy to keep for yourself? Or to make copies of the original before you send it?

He may not lose it, but if he does, you will have a copy to send him.

Cedar

 

[Copabanana]

the illusion of happily every after with most of our Difficult Child's may not ever exist.

The key words here for me are these: the illusion. Because even for our healthy and seemingly perfect children happily ever after will not exist. Our belief in it is a fantasy. Even if they appear to be headed towards lives blessed with all that our society offers as possible, it is by no means guaranteed. Even if our lives with them are without rancor or stress, this too can change.

These threads are full of stories where adult children who never presented a problem--one day do. Coming to mind is the perfect daughter, who came to steal 20k from her mother. Or those that marry, and influenced by a spouse, reject the parents they once seemed to love.

What we all share, here on CD, is this: we are unable to perpetuate the fantasy that our kids will live happily ever after. Typically, due to some acting out my them, failing to thrive, drug use, or mental illness--they stumble--and when they do, we do too.

Acceptance for me comes when I just state the facts without any judgement attached and with the knowledge that my acceptance truly doesn't alter life's happenings.

While I cannot argue against the fact that our kids lives may be more difficult, or dangerous, what unites us here is our own difficulties with this--not their own.

And it is this exact thing where we have a great deal of control. Our own difficulties with their difficulties. That is what CD is about. How to start working on our own difficulties and not their difficulties.

To see their difficulties as their business, and to begin to conceptualize our difficulties with their difficulties as something over which we have both control and responsibility.

What I see you doing with "acceptance" is staying in the present, and staying inside yourself--not in him. Because the future does not exist for anybody.

Right now, I am worried about and missing dreadfully my own child. The last we know he was in a psychiatric hospital a couple of hours from me. I do not know if he is still there because staff will not acknowledge it or not. I kicked him out because he did not get treatment fast enough for my liking. Who knows if I did right or wrong. Or if it even matters. He will do what he will do. So will I.

The stress and sadness from this feels unbearable. So I guess I will go take a bath and try to de-tangle my hair.

Thank you for responding.

 

[Albatross]

It is interesting that he said he is where he needs to be and happy. I suppose it is somewhat adventurous? Living an unconventional life.

He said, "It's funny, but when I'm out here I'm not...I can't do that, not as much. I don't know where my next meal's coming from, I don't know where I'm going to sleep...but God's good to me when my life is like this, Mom. I need to live like this. I don't know why, but I do."

Now, what in the world does this mean? Is it some vagabond fantasy? Like he is hopping freight trains? On the Road Again? Lonesome Cowboy?

Leafy and Copa, I think what he means is that he does better when choice is taken off the table. He can leave rehab at any time. But he can't leave being stranded in the middle of nowhere with no money. In his view, living on the edge this way gives him excitement and gratitude.

If he has to choose between drinking and eating and he has food or money available, he will drink. If he has to choose when he is starving and doesn't know where the next meal will come from, he will choose eating.

I think he was telling me that he does better without any financial help.

He does see it as adventurous, and yes I do think he has a romantic view of the hobo or vagabond lifestyle. He always has.

So, Albatross--he really left you no role. He is not reaching out to return or change. On the contrary he is defining himself, his place--as different. So maybe that is what it is about.

This is how it felt, Copa. That he has left me no role. It even felt as if he was letting me off the hook, if that makes any sense, and that is what still has me weepy.

Or maybe that is all in my mind; maybe I was never on the hook in the first place. Maybe this is MY version of the target on my back. Maybe I am the one who keeps it there.

You know what for me is the most frustrating part of this type of relationship is the insecurity of it all. The being held hostage to the uncertainty - and to the infinite space of the brief interludes of "I love and care for you".

Yes, SNM, this is what gets me too, the uncertainty of not knowing. When they are in such risky situations, it does make the space between seem infinite.

Right now, I am worried about and missing dreadfully my own child. The last we know he was in a psychiatric hospital a couple of hours from me. I do not know if he is still there because staff will not acknowledge it or not. I kicked him out because he did not get treatment fast enough for my liking. Who knows if I did right or wrong. Or if it even matters. He will do what he will do. So will I.

Copa, I am sorry you are going through this. I have been at this place too, where we do what we think is true and right and we just end up feeling icky inside. I hope you find out where and how he is very soon.

Acceptance for me comes when I just state the facts without any judgement attached and with the knowledge that my acceptance truly doesn't alter life's happenings. What acceptance does for me is to release the hold it has on my thoughts and feelings. I can do this for the most part but when I can't and I get in pain and fear, then I can at least acknowledge it here and then by sheer tiredness be "gut wrenched" into acceptance.

This was very helpful to me, SNM. I am struggling so hard with acceptance.

Yesterday it felt like something cracked in me. I don't know where it is leading, but I know I have to somehow do this differently. If I don't, there is going to be more wreckage than there is already.

The framework of my detachment is far from healthy. It is built on anger and resentment, and I am oh so full of judgment, about everything and everybody.

I can't stand the person I've become. I want to be different, to do it differently somehow, but I don't know how.

Even if I did, I don't know that I would have the energy or the courage. I'm just so exhausted by it all.

Possible to send only a copy of the Birth Certificate, Albatross? If you do send the original, is it possible for you to obtain a notarized copy to keep for yourself? Or to make copies of the original before you send it?

Thank you, Cedar. He has not called with the address. If he does, I have several certified copies in the safe, just in case.

 

[Copabanana]

Copa,I hope you find out where and how he is very soon.

The psychiatrist called this afternoon. The one he went to when he was in 6th grade. It was about sending me a bill, but he pretended it was to ask about my son.

He asked if my son got sorted out the treatment facilities. It seems my son is calling him to check in and to ask for advice. My son went first to a facility in Bel Air CA, and then felt it was wrong because there were psychotic people there! And so he advocated for himself and got transferred to another place which he felt was unsuitable because there are drug addicts!

I am scratching my head wondering what my son is thinking. He walks around in 108 degree heat with his hoody on. He believes martians mated with reptiles to produce, get this, Obama and other world elite. Oh. And that my people, the Jews are somehow involved in it all--and not in a good way.

Oh. Yes. I forgot. The holocaust never happened. Wonderful. And even if it did, we must have deserved it, I guess, in his way of thinking. Wonderful. My son.

But I am glad he is safe. He now has money. His SSI check arrived. I am fully expecting that he will leave this latest facility declaring that there is no place suitable for him. That he tried, so it is not his problem. It is mine.

Having smoked up all of his money, in 6 days since he left here he managed to take a tour of one regional medical center psychiatric hospital and two residential treatment centers in Bel Air CA paid for by my insurance waiting for his SSI Check to arrive.

M is hopeful that he will accept treatment because M believes that my son accepts now that his best shot is with us. That no matter how tough on him and demanding we are, he has more comfort and security and support with us. M believes my son is motivated now, to protect his ability to stay with us or close to us. I hope he is right.

I am wondering why my son is not calling me. Is that good or bad? Albatross. Thank you for thinking of me. I am thinking of you, too. I do not want any one of us to suffer.

 

[savior no more]

Who knows if I did right or wrong. Or if it even matters.

From my point of view your not enabling him to continue with status quo perhaps accelerated his getting help. I can imagine what you must want to say to the people at the psychiatric hospital - as I would - that you are good, loving parents. I'm certain they see it exactly for what it is - his stuff. If he isn't calling you that is really a good sign - that the medications and the process are helping him deal with his problems and hopefully he's beginning to work through the process. It's painfully isolating when this happens. It also let's me now just how deeply emotionally tied I am to my son when I have to deal with this. My heart goes out to you during your time of waiting and his silence.

 

[savior no more]

The framework of my detachment is far from healthy. It is built on anger and resentment, and I am oh so full of judgment, about everything and everybody.

I can't stand the person I've become. I want to be different, to do it differently somehow, but I don't know how

Albie -
Where I learned most of my stuff on judgments and "my story" was from Eckhart Tolle. I know he's old but somehow when I read several of his chapters in The Power of Now I was able to see how my thoughts and about life events tied me to unhappiness. I also think letting go comes in waves and that layers are peeled away and I always feel worse as I'm adjusting to a deeper knowledge. I understand your not liking the person you have become. I look back on some of the things that I thought were helpful for my son even a year ago and now see that it wasn't. When I can become quiet and unattach I then have a little more power to choose where I want to spend my effort and energy. Sounds to me that what you are saying this the 1 st step of Al Anon- admitted you were powerless and that your life is unmanageable. Thoughts of calm, peace, and healing your way.

 

[Copabanana]

If he isn't calling you that is really a good sign - that the medications and the process are helping him deal with his problem

savior. He refuses medication. This is one of my most fervent hopes, that he become medication compliant. I believe an SSRI could help with the phobia, body dysmorphia, his anxiety and his depressed mood. No matter how much I try to convince him to have an open mind, he remains concerned about side effects. There is a holding onto pain and the identity as somebody who is stricken down. It is like he willfully holds onto this.

My heart goes out to you during your time of waiting and his silence.

Thank you. I feel so much better knowing he was communicating with the psychiatrist and knowing that he seems unwilling anymore to be homeless. These are big things, that I do not discount. Even if he leaves residential treatment, that he has gone, has changed the conversation. Now we can negotiate if he wants to come home. But the point has been made. There is no walking back from it.

Thank you for thinking of me, savior. I am thinking of you, too.

 

[Lil]

Albie...

This made me weepy, and happy, in equal measure. I can imagine how sad you must be. This is not the life any of us want for our children. But you got your "I love you's"; he's told you he's happy and okay. I suppose that happy and okayi is what matters.

 

[RN0441]

Albie:
Just caught up with this post. Wow that was a powerful interaction between the two of you.

Have you heard anything since?