As expected:

[Childofmine]

They are their own #1 worst enemy. Until one day, if many of them are lucky, they finally grow up and get it and become their own best friend.

Maddening isn't it??? Ugh. Hang in there jabber...

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

Lil and Jabber, it helped me, and my kids, to believe they would come through it well, and to portray that to them in my words and tone. The toughest battle there was with myself. I had to work very hard to change the way I thought about my kids, and about myself as a mother, and about what a good mother was, to do that. It felt like I was lying, to say "Oh, no! I'm sorry that happened. What do you think you are going to do?"

Or words to that effect.

I had to say, any number of times, that the child's long term interests would not be served by coming home, or by money from me. I said things like: "You are not a beggar. You will come through this. I am sorry that happened to you. I love you. Take it one step at a time. This will all work out."

I had decided ahead of time that was the attitude that would finally help us all out of the circle of enabling. And it seems to have worked. And the kids are stepping into a kind of certainty about how they will come through whatever it is that doesn't involve justifying themselves to me as much as it does figuring out, not only how to not put themselves in that situation ever again, but to create security in their lives.

For today, that is true.

That is the crucial thing that had to happen. The kids had to make their priority how to manage their lives, and not how to be in a terrible enough situation that I would rescue them. Back in the old days, that seemed to be the thing that was most important to them: How to justify their positions to me so I would come through with money and a house and cars and licenses and so on.

I don't get to be a hero anymore.

It has been very hard to let go of that. I don't know how the normal ways we help our children get a foothold in the world turned into the ugliness of enabling, but for our family, that is what happened.

I have to say (and it just about killed me the first few times I said it): "I don't know. I'm sorry honey, but I don't know what I would do if that happened to me, either. I do know you; I know you will come through this because you are smart and strong and you will figure it out. Everything is going to be fine."

I read somewhere that if a mom says (or a dad) that everything is going to be fine, that helps the kids to believe they can.

So, I said that.

The only other thing I could have said was: "Here is money." Or, "Come home."

It was really, really hard not to say those words. It felt really bad to know their situations and not say those words.

But that hadn't worked for any of us in the past.

It helped my kids for me to do that, Lil and Jabber.

It was really scary, and everyone felt like I was betraying them and was an awful mom or grandmother. I felt pretty rotten too, but I did it, anyway.
I still sent birthday cards and so on, but they hated that. To them, it seemed like a drop in the ocean when I could have done so much more.

But I did it that way, anyway.

I just kept loving them, and doing the best that I knew, even if they seemed to hate me.

Which they did seem to, for awhile there.

It was very hard.

In meeting the challenges they create for themselves, the kids mature into adults who believe in themselves. If we believe they can do whatever it is, then it seems like they do find a way.

You have one another, Lil and Jabber. That matters; you will be able to get one another through it.

This is really hard stuff.

There is no right or wrong way to do it.

We helped both our kids well into their thirties.

Cedar

 

[Lil]

Well only messages I've gotten today have been him bad-mouthing the family. Apparently his aunt asked the girlfriend if he ever abused her. So of course, that means that they think he's a bad person and he says they treated him like dirt (his word was a bit stronger).

I have not responded. What am I supposed to say to that?

 

[Copabanana]

Lil, what he is is young and immature. And he is over his head. All he has right now is his infantile and self-defeating attitude and thinking to fall back on.

I am very sorry that that happened with Jabber's Sis. Of course he is responsible and is making bad decision after bad decision. I just wonder if he is capable right now of doing differently.

He is not a bad person. He is learning how to live.

Maybe you want to think about supporting them to make a plan, exploring options.

I do not think that your make up is such to let him flail and flail, without yourself suffering unthinkably and intolerably.

I think differently than most. I do not think that helping them make a plan, sorting their options, is enabling. (I am a bit afraid to be confessing this....)

Copa

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

Well only messages I've gotten today have been him bad-mouthing the family. Apparently his aunt asked the girlfriend if he ever abused her. So of course, that means that they think he's a bad person and he says they treated him like dirt (his word was a bit stronger).

I have not responded. What am I supposed to say to that?

I have already posted in once, but I will just do this one little post more.

So, there was a mom here who gave us the imagery of sitting on our lips. Basically, that means we get to listen, but not give advice. We get to say, "Oh, I'm sorry that happened, honey." Or we could even say, "Gosh. I wonder why Aunty would think something like that."

But I would stick with, "Oh, I'm sorry that happened."

It was hard for me to do that. I was used to rushing in and validating whatever reality the kids were presenting. Then, I would be mad at whoever it was, too. Because that is the next step. This is part of that feeling of "I don't know." It is very hard not to engage Lil, but it did help my kids. I could see myself as someone it was safe for them to validate their realities against without judging them for what the reality was. That meant I could not go either way. Unless there was a specific, factual piece of information I could provide, I could only say all those things I said in my earlier post to you.

The point is that whatever happened in the past, the question is where he is going to take it, now.

That imagery of sitting on my lips helped me.

The Anne Lamott prayer, "Help! Thanks! Wow!" helped me, because I could say it really quick the whole time I was on the phone.

I would say things about shelters and where there were free dinners. I looked all that information up, because it was the only way I could give the situation back to whatever child it was.

There was not one easy thing about any of it.

But it does seem to have helped our kids.

Cedar

 

[Lil]

All he has right now is his infantile and self-defeating attitude and thinking to fall back on.

Yes, I think right now he just wants people on his side. He thinks if he makes me mad at them and think badly of them, then he somehow "wins". Or maybe it's trying to ruin the family for everyone, since he feels he's been excluded from it. And he does. As far as he's concerned, the family has kicked him out. He can't see that it's his own behavior that causes it.

I'm not surprised that his aunt asked the girlfriend if he'd ever abused her, nor am I upset with her for asking. He has such angry body language sometimes...and of course, he'd frightened his grandparents, so they would have to wonder if he got that out of control with them, what would he do with his girl behind closed doors. But he does not understand that his manor makes him suspect. He takes it as a personal insult...but it's not an illogical question. It was his aunt, trying to make sure a young girl she'd taken in was safe...even if it meant safe from him.

I do not think that helping them make a plan, sorting their options, is enabling.

I tend to agree Copa, but I don't see any options really. He never takes advice...never. I told him it would be smart to call his job if he was quitting and to tell them that, thru circumstances he can't control, he's out of housing and he has to get that fixed before he can work again. I told him that would be better and maybe they'd give him a reference. I am sure he has ignored me...just like he ignored me when he quit the job here when Job Corps wanted him sooner than expected. I told him...work up to the last possible second. Give notice of a week or two, but let them know it's unexpected and he thought he'd have months. He just stopped going in, Never even returned his uniform shirts, and then didn't go to Job Corps so he was unemployed and homeless again.

That's why I've resorted to just giving him the names and phone numbers of shelters. Nothing I say makes an impact.

I find it very disheartening that his messages to me have only been to complain...not to tell me of any progress. Did he call the shelter? Did he find a place to stay? Did he call work? He can't tell me that...only that the family treated him bad and I should remember that next time I go to a family gathering.

 

[Copabanana]

I tend to agree Copa, but I don't see any options really. He never takes advice...never.

Support is different from giving advice.

They need to come up with the results they want. They need to identify options. They need to come up with a plan. They need to identify obstacles and to decide upon how to get around them or defeat them.

This is hard to do if you are overwhelmed. And young, without experience of the world.

Sitting down with them in a restaurant over a period of a couple of weeks, to support them by asking:

What are the results you want, right now? The priorities. And actually write them down. And with each, what are your options? Which are the preferred options? What might be the barriers? How can you deal with them?

The solutions are in them. Not in us.

I find it very disheartening that his messages to me have only been to complain...not to tell me of any progress. Did he call the shelter? Did he find a place to stay? Did he call work?

So, we are back to Cedar's post. Their default is to make themselves beggars, in such bad enough straits as to force us by their peril and vulnerability to save them?

The inverse of what we want for them. The inverse of what they need to develop in themselves.

We want them to know we love them, and that we trust them to find solutions themselves...to develop strength, judgment, experience and wisdom. Maturity. The belief that the resources exist in them, not us.

I believe Cedar is correct. I also believe that 20 is very, very young. The research is that the male brain does not mature even begin to approach maturity, I think until 27 or so.

It is not wrong to offer support to help them find solutions themselves. I think, for me, it would not be.

He can't tell me that...only that the family treated him bad and I should remember that next time I go to a family gathering.

This has a touching aspect, Lil. He knows you are on his side.

He is just so out of touch with himself. This is so childish.

I think you will feel better if you were to offer, you and Jabber, to sit down with them to support them to figure things out for themselves. I think you might feel better meeting the girl and seeing that your son is OK. I do not think it would be harmful.

But like Cedar posted it is belief in him that he can do it and within him and her lies the ability to do this, and the right. To figure it out and to stick with it. Not telling him what to do, giving advice, counsel, or solving things. That does not work. He forgets it, or opposes it. It undermines, as I found with my own son.

But your son is way younger than ours. There may be actual limits, either organic in maturity of the brain or different wiring that are not chosen. That he will, in time, develop or learn to overcome. He may need support in order to himself figure things out. That is not taking away consequences. That is not telling him what to do. I think there is a difference.

He is a good person. Just very, very young without a clue of who he is, except when he opens his big mouth or opposes. I hope I have not offended.

As far as his bad-mouthing Aunt and Uncle, and acting the injured party, that is oh-so juvenile. I would not take it seriously. He is still choosing a team for kick-ball. Or sticking his tongue out.

COPA

 

[Tanya M]

Lil, I'm just now getting caught up. I am so sorry. It was nice of Jabber's sister to give it a try and she made clear right up front what the rules were.

I know with my son if anyone in authority were to tell him the sky was blue he would argue with them and like your son demand an explanation as to why.

I will never understand why a Difficult Child will bite the hand that's trying to help all the while blaming everyone and owning no part of why their lives are a mess.

You are doing great Lil.

When he sends you a text that you are not sure how to respond to, just let it go. You do not have to respond to every text he sends especially when all he's doing is complaining and blaming.

((HUGS)) to you.................

 

[Lil]

Right now, I just want to know what has happened. Have they found a place? He changed his Facebook profile picture a couple hours ago and took down his posts griping and begging for help, but I don't know what's going on with them. It's so nerve wracking. Maybe he hasn't because I didn't respond?

 

[Jabberwockey]

She just messaged him. Still has his job and they are talking to someone from Craigslist about renting a room.

 

[Copabanana]

She just messaged him. Still has his job and they are talking to someone from Craigslist about renting a room.

How fantastic!

 

[Lil]

I couldn't help but ask. Mom had to have her mind put to rest that they'd done something. I asked if he'd called the shelter, but he said it "didn't work out". Odd, since this is a major mission...but maybe like I said, the religious aspect got in the way of them being together. At least he still has a job...that makes one of them. My guess is she ended up not showing today and maybe he was off.

Anyway, I just told him, "I'm sure you can make this work. I love you."

So...back to square one. I'm SO tired!

 

[New Leaf]

So much going on for you. My thoughts and prayers are with you......((((hugs))))

 

[Jabberwockey]

At least he still has a job...that makes one of them. My guess is she ended up not showing today and maybe he was off.

We were talking last night. Neither of us had thought about it too much until it occurred to me that she might have been fired over the incident in the parking lot.

 

[Childofmine]

Lil hang in there. It is so exhausting. So exhausting.

And if there truly was something to do that would turn things around or spark a new direction, then of course it would be the next thing to try.

But for most of us, like many have posted, we have already tried that and all it did was further engage us in a fruitless effort, and there is a cost to us. And truly, there is a cost to them. When we do this over and over, thinking and hoping and praying that this time, this time, they are ready to hear or we can create some new combination of words...we are spending our energy and their energy on what I believe is a pathway to more nothing. Instead of getting out of the way so they can navigate new territory. It is their path. It is their journey. It is senseless to us.

We cannot know or understand another person's walk and course and path.

When they call us and text us and message us again and again, telling us their problems and laying them at our feet, only to reject everything we say, and then to call again and again to do the same dance with us over and over, this is torture and it gets nobody anywhere.

We tolerate the torture because we can't stand not to. We love them so much. We just want some contact even if it is this kind of contact.

They do it because they get something from it. I don't pretend to know what that something is.

But I don't believe it helps. Being able to say, simply, I'm sorry, I love you and I am sure you will figure it out, is the kindest thing we can do. It is so hard to do when we want to point out so so many things. To ask so many questions. To offer ideas...just...one...more...time.

They already know. They know and they don't want to do it. There is no magic set of words to change their course. They have to do it.

You guys are doing great. It is so so so hard. We are here for you. Hugs.

 

[Jabberwockey]

Being able to say, simply, I'm sorry, I love you and I am sure you will figure it out, is the kindest thing we can do.

And this is the hardest thing for Lil to say right now. She has tried, which obviously just set our son off on a tirade, so for now she talks to him while trying not to engage. We don't really know what he expects from us with these calls. He hasn't asked for anything in a while. Our best guess is that he just wants someone "on his side". He tends to have a very "you're either with me or against me" mentality with little to no room for neutrality.

 

[mtic]

But for most of us, like many have posted, we have already tried that and all it did was further engage us in a fruitless effort, and there is a cost to us. And truly, there is a cost to them. When we do this over and over, thinking and hoping and praying that this time, this time, they are ready to hear or we can create some new combination of words...we are spending our energy and their energy on what I believe is a pathway to more nothing. Instead of getting out of the way so they can navigate new territory. It is their path. It is their journey. It is senseless to us.

We used to try to come up with plans for my son. We'd sit down and discuss it...or at least his father and I would be talking. My son would nod his head and agree with everything. When that plan didn't work out, we'd repeat the process. I finally realized that with every plan hubby and I came up with my son seemed to try even harder to fail and seemed to get deeper and deeper into trouble. Right now he's couch surfing somewhere about 6 hours away from here. Haven't heard from him in about 3 weeks. I really have nothing to say to him anymore and I'm so much more at peace when I don't have contact. Wonder if that makes me a horrible person?

Anyway, Lil and Jabberwockey, seems your son needs to figure things out on his own too. I've seen you go above and beyond for him...you trying to help and him screwing up every time. They're very good at doing that, aren't they? The fact that he looked at CL to try to find a room proves they can get by. They really do need to figure it out on their own.

 

[Tanya M]

He hasn't asked for anything in a while. Our best guess is that he just wants someone "on his side". He tends to have a very "you're either with me or against me" mentality with little to no room for neutrality.

This reminds me so much of my son. He got to where he would not ask for anything but would most definitely complain about his situation. Part of me really felt that he was hoping we would feel sorry enough for him to offer some assistance.
The "you're either with me or against me" is spot on.
You are both doing really well in dealing with this. It's good you have each other.

 

[Lil]

Being able to say, simply, I'm sorry, I love you and I am sure you will figure it out, is the kindest thing we can do. It is so hard to do when we want to point out so so many things. To ask so many questions. To offer ideas...just...one...more...time.

I'm doing my best to say, "I don't have any suggestions. I'm sorry to hear that. I understand." But part of me says, "Try this and see if they'll help." I know he can call a shelter as easily as I can. He's probably better at finding stuff on the computer. But I still do it. And when I know that things are up in the air...I just have to ask - "So? What happened?" I know I need to break myself of that...but I hate not knowing! By the same token...I hate to get updates, because they're usually bad.

I really have nothing to say to him anymore and I'm so much more at peace when I don't have contact. Wonder if that makes me a horrible person?

If it makes you a horrible person, I'm right there with you. I want to know where he is and if he's got a roof over his head, but after that, I don't want any more details. I'm happier when he doesn't call, because it's never with good news. When he calls, my stomach clenches. When it's been too long without that call though...I start to worry.

Poor Jabber. He puts up with a lot from me.

 

[in a daze]

. I want to know where he is and if he's got a roof over his head, but after that, I don't want any more details. I'm happier when he doesn't call, because it's never with good news. When he calls, my stomach clenches. When it's been too long without that call though...I start to worry.

I can relate!

They condition you to always expect bad news when they call. It's never "Hi, how's it going, what's new with you" etc. It's never to say hello and catch up. It's always about their feelings, their needs. They are so self absorbed.

My son definitely has his head up his behind.