BDP daughter wants to her & I to go family therapy

[Childofmine]

Billy, the hurt is real that you are talking about. The question is: What do we do with it?

Do we keep expecting better from a person who has already shown us and taught us, over and over again, what he or she has to offer?

Do we get hard and cynical about it?

Are we angry, bitter, sad, resentful, pushy, demanding, whiny, controlling, punishing, passive/aggressive?

I can tell you that before I began working on my own recovery from enabling, I'm sure I did all of these things and more, and I still have expectations of people that are unreasonable. I can still get mad, and defensive and hurt, and pop off about it.

But today, the turnaround is quicker and I realize more and more what is my business and what is not. What is reasonable and what is not. What is reality and what is not.

Reality is what is. What we see right before us, with no interpretations needed.

This is what we must learn to deal with, reality. And the actual way to do that is to get right inside ourselves. We have to learn how to behave differently. Because we aren't going to be able to change them. Nothing we can do or say will change another person. So, we have to change ourselves. We have to change what we say, what we do and how we behave. Our feelings may not change, but we have to unhook our feelings from our words, our actions and our behavior.

We can learn to do this, with lots of work and help. Therapy, Al-Anon, reading books like CoDependent No More, writing here, journaling, being kind to ourselves with adequate rest, play, exercise, food, small kindnesses...all of these tools and more will help us change and help us turn the bright light of focus that we are so used to shining on others...right back onto ourselves. Where it should have been all along.

Hang in there. We are here for you.

 

[Lioness]

Oh Scent of Cedar I really was in that "happy Grandmother place". She dies hold this power over me and will use it, you are so right maybe she's jealous? Maybe she just wanted to show me who's boss. The thing I can't reconcile is the love I had when my own children were little hasnt diminished over the years I love them still. So I can never stop loving my children no matter how cruel she becomes. My little grand daughter is so delightful and I know my daughter is very hard to live with and I don't doubt that the baby who is only 2 sees and hears her mum. My grandmother was my saviour and brought me up till I was 6 years old and my mum was very physically & psychologically abusive. There was a time between ages 6-7 that my mum wouldn't let my grandmother have contact with us for a whole year! And we lived in the same house. I would pass my grandmother on the stairs and our eyes would meet yet we knew we weren't allowed to talk to each other! I remember that so clearly. Our bond remained strong and she was so gentle and kind unlike my mum who was hard and vicious! I want to be that soft place for my granddaughter she needs it. My mum was also abused by her father an alcoholic wife and child beater. My own mum hated her mum for not saving them from him. But that was a different time women those days didn't have any choice especially on a little Greek Island. My own parents divorced, I divorced and I don't want history to repeat itself. I want my daughter and son in law to stay together. My son in law is a good person who I know struggles with my daughter and wants to save her. He tries so hard and loves her so much that I pray they will stay together for the Babies sake. I read and re read all that everyone had to say and you are all so wise that I need to digest all your points. I know I don't deserve what she's doing to me. I'm not a bad person, I'm flawed like everyone. All I've done is try so hard to hold it all together all I wanted was to create a happy family and be the best mum I could be. I never hit my kids but yes I did shout and scold. If I'm guilty of anything it's loving too much. Love to you all for all your kindness. And yes my daughter is a nasty piece of work. I know that. It's so sad.

 

[Lioness]

Oh Somewhere out there. I do try to count my blessings not my curses. But it's so hard. I don't have a mother that I'm used to now, but I so wanted to do it differently with my kids. Im close with my son and other daughter. How can I be such a witch to my eldest and ok with the other two? This I cant understand. She is just mean and I have to remember it.

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

I had 3 kids she hated me, my son was depressed & my youngest was unwell in and out of hospital their Dad left after an affair. Was absent & she blamed me.

Yes. But what kind of person is it who hones hatred, who holds onto it, who refuses to grow through it and into compassion.

She was suffering & angry because R her Dad left yet she was angry with me.

There is always a because. The question here is why she is still using that same old wrinkled up and dried out "because".

Because it works, that's why.

You did nothing wrong, Billy.

Billy.

You did nothing wrong. You did the best you knew and when you knew better you did better.

That's from Maya Angelou.

You know what else she says? "Believe them the first time, when they tell you who they are."

I'm so worried & sick about the Family therapist. I don't know what to say.

"NO."

It would be beneficial for you to see a therapist on your own, Billy. You are coping with some very toxic stuff. When we are addressing this kind of toxicity, this kind of determined intent to do us harm from someone we believe loves us, it is best to have a trusted therapist beside us to help us see clearly.

Al Anon could be beneficial for you.

N A M I, an alliance determined to help those affected by the inappropriate behaviors of those we love, may be helpful.

An internet search for the words that come up for you might be helpful. Just go ahead and google the words, and see what you find. We are not the only ones in the situations we are in, Billy. But we are making our ways through it.

And you will, too.

What do I say to the therapist?

I would like you to enter individual therapy first, Billy. He or she will help you know how to work through these issues with your daughter. She is so hurtful that I think you should not be in therapy with her yet. I do not think you should tell her you are going into therapy for yourself, if you decide to do that, either. We need safe sanctuary to heal, Billie. It seems that our abusers will move heaven and earth to steal that safe haven, that sanctuary, away from us. So it would be good, I think, to keep all things having to do with your healing far away from your daughter's view. For just this little time until you are stronger, she does not have to know.

Do not allow her to victimize or use you. Challenge yourself to say "no."

Yes.

Copa? I love your new avatar. Living, flowering plants and the pink buildings.

I like it very much for you, Copa.

Once she pushed me through a glass table! She has punched me and called me hideous names.

Oh, that breaks my heart for you. It is one horrible thing to be threatened, and another realm of horror entirely to have been treated as you have been.

I am so sorry those things ever happened to you, Billy.

Plus, I think your husband was an irresponsible jerk. Men do not get a free pass to abrogate their responsibilities because they have been fool enough to entertain themselves with other women who are low enough to have sex with someone who is a married person. You know what they say: If they'll do it with you, they'll do it to you.

And I hope she does.

And she probably is, whether he knows it or not.

Or wishes she were. All that money may be keeping her home, nights. For now.

That must have been an awful thing to go through.

I'm sorry that happened to you, and to your family, Billie.

My childhood was awful my mum beat us & emotionally abused us too. We ended up in a children's home which I loved as I at last felt safe.

Me, too. Not the children's home. But I understand how that would have felt safe to you.

Boy, do I.

I tried extra hard to be a good mother or a good enough one.

Me too.

It was scary to be a mom at first, because I was so afraid I would be like my mother, and hurt my own babies. And with every phase of their developments, I would have to keep learning all I could about how to be a good mom. I knew what not to do? But I had no way of knowing what to do.

My daughter reminds me of my own mother and that scares me.

My sister is very like my mother. There is that genetic piece I posted to you about earlier. It is probable that every behavior of your daughter could be attributable to her genetic heritage. What sorts of people in the father's genetic line?

Apparently she confronted her Dad about his neglect & other things he did to hurt her, he apologised and they're ok now!

In my family of origin, everyone lies. They unite against the family member they have chosen as a focus for a kind of wide-ranging hatred they feel. They can be so clever about how they do it too, Billy. This paragraph has that "uniting to hate" feeling.

Be wise, and be wary, Billy.

As our Seeking Strength tells us, stay close to the site during this time.

There are different rules it seems

That's because, in my know everything this morning mindset, your daughter and her father have a different end game in mind. Where you anticipate healing, they anticipate uniting to destroy you.

That is how things seem to work in my family of origin.

You could have blown me over with a feather when I figured that one out.

It was true, though.

I'am not depressed just devastated. I hate myself. I don't want to be a victim I am a fighter, I don't normally give up.

I feel that way about myself too, Billy. But what was doing me in was compassion. I just couldn't believe that it could possibly be what it looked like. I wondered what was the matter with me, what kind of person could think those kinds of thoughts about their own families.

Now I am progressing toward better.

It has been a very hard thing.

But I am doing it Billy, so that means you can do it, too.

Those same qualities that kept us all tied into them are the qualities ~ the refusing to see ourselves as victims, the bravery to never give up whatever the shame of the thing or the hurt of it, that compassionate nature that
kept us believing in them no matter what ~ all those qualities are the strong, true things that will help us come through what is happening to us, now.

For me, it is a true thing that these terrible things have always been happening. I never defined their actions in that way.

I am still so surprised.

We are going on June 19th but I doibt she will turn up. Please can you tell me am I being over sensitive?

No. You are being honest. That is a good beginning place for each of us who finds themselves in the situations we are in. Please post to us after the therapy session, Billy. You are no longer alone with all of it. Remember to maintain scrupulous anonymity. This is a public site. If your abusers learn you have found a safe place, a sanctuary place, they may stalk you, here.

You merit sanctuary, and you need it, to heal.

Cedar

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

She dies hold this power over me and will use it, you are so right maybe she's jealous?

No. Power is the name of this game I think, Billy. I thought jealousy might be it sometimes with my family, too. I would wonder things like had I been showing off or trying to rub their noses in it or what I had done to create those really bad feelings in them. I would try harder to be nice, to be inclusive and welcoming. I felt guilty, too. But part of my healing was that I realized they were doing this to everyone, only worse. I had my D H, and we have enough stuff to not need anything from them and so, what they did was the only way to hurt me so they did those terrible things.

And all along, I felt stupidly betrayed or wrong in some way I could not, for the life of me, see.

So I kept trying so hard, Billy.

That is how it works, with abusers.

That is what they do.

But they need our complicity to hurt us. Isn't that something? They need us to blind ourselves to what they are doing to us. I just keep thinking, "But...I thought you loved me?"

Because that is what they say, especially when they are slipping a long, really sharp knife between your ribs, right where your heart is.

Okay. So that was a little dramatic.

Except it is true.

It is exactly true that is just what they do.

Every single time we are anywhere near where they are; even if they are the ones who pursued us. That is the thing that is so hard to believe. We never, ever, see why anyone would do such things.

Maybe she just wanted to show me who's boss.

Yep.

But not in any way that could ever make the remotest sense to anyone but another abuser, another predator. Their hearts are all the same.

Glass.

The thing I can't reconcile is the love I had when my own children were little hasnt diminished over the years I love them still.

No one can ever change that we love our people. They do not get to change any of that for us, ever. Your babies and your children were yours to mother and to love and to be proud of and to wish every good thing for.

What your daughter does with that is up to her.

You can still love that little girl she was, Billy. But she is a grown person now, and her behaviors mandate that you protect your tender, courageous mother heart from her.

And you can do it, too. It's easy, once we get it that they can never, ever change the love we felt for them before they chose to be who they became.

They can never, ever change that we loved them, Billy.

All those wonderful memories and emotions and happy times? Those are ours. That is what we made, for us and for them.

Yay for you Billy, and for me, too.

That is sanctuary. Those true things that we had with our children.

That may be why your daughter is so determined to destroy that for you, and for her sibs, now. There is power there for her. Like all abusers, she is a bully and a coward and does not have a clue why she cannot will those good things into her own life.

But she is not you and she never will be.

By her own choice, Billy. She had an excellent mentor and role model in you. And even now, she is doing everything in her power to dominate and control and destroy every good, strengthening thing.

But she never will. Especially now that you are here with us, I think she will never be able to do that, anymore.

My grandmother was my saviour and brought me up till I was 6 years old and my mum was very physically & psychologically abusive

Me, too! My grandmother did not raise us, but just to know she was out there, far away but loving us fiercely made all the difference in who I ultimately became. In who I crafted of myself, after everything, after every terrible thing, that happened to me.

Good for you, Billy. Grandmothers matter so much. That may be your role for these grand of yours. I would not be who I am today had I not had my grandmother, really strong, in my heart.

My mother has done everything in her power to destroy my grandmother in our memories, and continues to spew toxicity regarding this grandmother to this day.

And that is why she does it.

To destroy me, to destroy sanctuary.

Now you know about that thing abusers do too, Billy.

So, that's good, then.

We merit sanctuary. Had we had some safe harbor to begin with? They would never have been able to hurt us in the first place.

Dirty buggers.

I want to be that soft place for my granddaughter she needs it.

Oh, good for you, Billy! If we are ever going to make our ways through whatever is happening to all of us, it will be through love, somehow.

Hatred is what got us here, in the first place.

And we both see where that got everyone.

Loving is way more fun. So, we start with ourselves and watch it grow and grow and grow until it shines from us like Fire.

Ahem.

Little over dramatic there. Sorry, everyone.

True, though.

I don't want history to repeat itself.

Me, either. But it seems there are those who are determined, right down to the roots of their hair, to see that it does. So we will just learn all about true things, and disregard them. And disregard their stupidly determined insistence on hatred and power over mentality.

I want my daughter and son in law to stay together. My son in law is a good person who I know struggles with my daughter and wants to save her. He tries so hard and loves her so much that I pray they will stay together for the Babies sake.

That, you cannot control. My father stayed with my mother. She abused him, and she committed terrible acts of abuse on his children (and his dogs) when he was away.

Here on the site, we think (I think) that what needs to happen, or that what is meant to happen, will happen. I cannot see the purpose in it, but on some cosmic level or something, it is possible there could be one that I cannot see because I cannot see over time. I read somewhere that "at the touch of Eternity, we will know". That comforts me sometimes, when I cannot make sense of the why of what is happening to all of us.

Sometimes, nothing comforts me. That is when I go through my toolbox. A toolbox is a concept Child of Mine described for all of us. It is a mental construct, a place we can go to review things we have found helpful to us in the past. We may have strengthening quotes there, or poetry or music that we love. Just knowledge of this site, just knowing we are all here, can be a toolbox item. You can make a toolbox for yourself too, Billy. Now you have that so strengthening concept, too. Another is: FOG. That is that emotional place where we are so shocked we cannot even think, cannot even move. Our emotions circle and circle. We worry (Child of Mine: "Worry is a fast getaway on a wooden horse.") and predict the future and catastrophize. Just knowing we are in FOG can help us know we will come out of that place that we are in, in time. That concept, FOG, was given to us by Recovering Enabler. Albatross has given us this concept: We are living in the rabbit hole, now. That is the rabbit hole Alice found herself in, where nothing whatsoever made sense, and the Red Queen was coming.

Here is something I learned this morning, on Seeking Strength's thread. This is from Echolette.

"Whatever is happening is okay. You will know how to handle yourselves. Relationships are long...there is no such thing as ruining them or missing an opportunity in a single moment. If he has changed and is reaching out, there will be more. If he is being manipulative, you have created space and strength and will recognize it and protect yourself."

It's so sad.

That's okay, Billy.

It is sad.

But you re here with us, now. And somehow, we will get ourselves and one another through it.

I am happy you found us, and glad you decided to post in.

Good for you and for us too, Billy.



Cedar

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

How can I be such a witch to my eldest and ok with the other two?

I think answers to those kinds of questions will come clear over the time you are here with us, Billy. For now, for today, if you can make an effort to be kinder ~ not kind, but only kinder ~ to yourself, I think that will help.

That is where I started, and you would be amazed Billy, to know how that one little concept, that one little resolution to be kinder ~ not kind, only kinder ~ to myself changed every single thing.

So we are making a good beginning I think, Billy.

Ha! Good for us!

Cedar

 

[Lioness]

Thank you to all of you for the wonderful kind words and support. I truly am grateful to you all x

 

[tishthedish]

Hi Billy,
I have 2 children that suggested (implored me) to attend therapy with them.

I would like you to enter individual therapy first, Billy. He or she will help you know how to work through these issues with your daughter. She is so hurtful that I think you should not be in therapy with her yet. I do not think you should tell her you are going into therapy for yourself, if you decide to do that, either. We need safe sanctuary to heal, Billie. It seems that our abusers will move heaven and earth to steal that safe haven, that sanctuary, away from us. So it would be good, I think, to keep all things having to do with your healing far away from your daughter's view. For just this little time until you are stronger, she does not have to know.

I have to agree with Cedar. I had a therapist that said in no uncertain terms that they were still trying to manipulate me and that the opportunity for a "therapeutic" approach to their problems was not appropriate given their age. Your daughter is a grown woman. If she needs to see a counselor in order to deal with the relationship then she can go. It doesn't sound to me as if you are the problem. What does she hope to accomplish with this therapy? If she's blaming you for a divorce that happened so far in the past, and you were the custodial parent...that's her problem. You did your best.

It didn't occur to me to say no to my sons. Anything having to do with their mental/medical health gave them carte blanche with me. I was glad my therapist saw it for what is was, a trap.

Grandparenting is s challenge with a difficult child. Do the best you can and don't let yourself fret about it. The more she sees that she can torment you with this, the more she'll play it to her advantage.

As for knowing she's so close location wise, all I can say is that she's inconsiderate and it sounds like that is the way the die has been cast. Don't put yourself through the ringer over it. She would be inconsiderate if she were 100 miles away and she's inconsiderate when she's 5 minutes away.

Good for you going out with your girlfriends. There is good life left to be had apart from our kids and grandkids. Maybe they'll come around, but until then, you can pray for that and treat yourself with the kindness and respect you deserve. Hugs to you. You are not alone.

 

[hopeandjoy66]

The thing I can't reconcile is the love I had when my own children were little hasnt diminished over the years I love them still.

Right now Billy, I believe you need to love yourself more. You have shown your love to your Difficult Child over and over and what has that accomplished. Take that energy and put it towards yourself. Your heart is big enough to still love your daughter, other child and grands, but your heart is begging you to love yourself just more.To protect yourself and your health. Pray that one day your Difficult Child may wake up and see herself for who she is. Give up on expectations of what a mother daughter relationship should look like. She is is incapable of doing that. You would never ask a person in a wheel chair to get up and walk. I think she can not do, say or act as you would expect. I think Cedar is right. DNA. Stop blaming how things have turned out because of your divorce. You have another child that has survived the "D" word and even thrived. It wasn't that. If you can put your ex in his spot. Behind you as that was his choosing. You don't need to know that he received a picture of the grand and you didn't. He to is out to hurt you in very subtle but purposeful ways. The less you know about his relationship with Difficult Child the better you are. You are moving forward Billy, he is also holding you back from that.
I do know what it is like to have a grandchild that we don't see often. My step daughter in law holds our grand daughter back from us. It is very subtle but I do believe she does this to punish her dad that "broke" up the family. This was very hard at first to accept. To feel like we had to do things a certain way if we wanted grand to visit and yet when we did as asked she would say it wasn't okay for grand to visit. Finally we saw it for what it was. It is what it is. Husband and I have moved on with having our own lives and we see her for the obligatory events, birthdays, Christmas ect.... All on the step daughter in law terms. We know one day that our grand will have a will of her own and she will be able to engage with us as she wants. I do believe she still feels our love. It is the best it can be, for now. Your grandson will feel the same. Just imagine that your grand lived on the other side of the world and you could not be with him physically. You would make the best of what little contact you have and I believe that love will transmitted to him anyway. We all can't have relationships with our grandchildren as we want but we will make it the best it can be.
Hugs for you today Billy. Please love yourself a little bit more each day and you will start to feel that you are worth it. You are 51% more important than your daughter.

Read more: http://www.conductdisorders.com/com...-go-family-therapy.60444/page-2#ixzz3cZRMjFaY

 

[Lioness]

Hope and joy

The thing I can't reconcile is the love I had when my own children were little hasnt diminished over the years I love them still.

Right now Billy, I believe you need to love yourself more. You have shown your love to your Difficult Child over and over and what has that accomplished. Take that energy and put it towards yourself. Your heart is big enough to still love your daughter, other child and grands, but your heart is begging you to love yourself just more.To protect yourself and your health. Pray that one day your Difficult Child may wake up and see herself for who she is. Give up on expectations of what a mother daughter relationship should look like. She is is incapable of doing that. You would never ask a person in a wheel chair to get up and walk. I think she can not do, say or act as you would expect. I think Cedar is right. DNA. Stop blaming how things have turned out because of your divorce. You have another child that has survived the "D" word and even thrived. It wasn't that. If you can put your ex in his spot. Behind you as that was his choosing. You don't need to know that he received a picture of the grand and you didn't. He to is out to hurt you in very subtle but purposeful ways. The less you know about his relationship with Difficult Child the better you are. You are moving forward Billy, he is also holding you back from that.
I do know what it is like to have a grandchild that we don't see often. My step daughter in law holds our grand daughter back from us. It is very subtle but I do believe she does this to punish her dad that "broke" up the family. This was very hard at first to accept. To feel like we had to do things a certain way if we wanted grand to visit and yet when we did as asked she would say it wasn't okay for grand to visit. Finally we saw it for what it was. It is what it is. Husband and I have moved on with having our own lives and we see her for the obligatory events, birthdays, Christmas ect.... All on the step daughter in law terms. We know one day that our grand will have a will of her own and she will be able to engage with us as she wants. I do believe she still feels our love. It is the best it can be, for now. Your grandson will feel the same. Just imagine that your grand lived on the other side of the world and you could not be with him physically. You would make the best of what little contact you have and I believe that love will transmitted to him anyway. We all can't have relationships with our grandchildren as we want but we will make it the best it can be.
Hugs for you today Billy. Please love yourself a little bit more each day and you will start to feel that you are worth it. You are 51% more important than your daughter.

Read more: http://www.conductdisorders.com/com...-go-family-therapy.60444/page-2#ixzz3cZRMjFaY

I appreciate your kind words and I do believe you are right. I have been unwell since Christmas and I think all the stress with my daughter and problems with Stepkids and husbands ex wife, financial situation has had an impact on my health. I am exhausted all the time. I try so hard to please everyone but never myself. I'm at the stage where I want to get in my car and drive till I fall off the edge of the world-my world. I love my family, husband and friends. My happiness is too wrapped up in them. I need to please myself but never do. I can't change my daughters lack of love and respect for me. It's me that needs to change. Thank you.

 

[Lioness]

Update. I have held back now for two weeks, and she has texted me several times feigning concern over my health problems. I find that if I don't contact her she starts chasing me. She said I could see my grand daughter this week, to "cheer you up" but the only day I could see her just happened to be the day I'm at work. I am only doing one day a week as its a very physical job with young pre schoolers so I am easing my way back. She did it on purpose. She dangles the carrot then takes it away! How can she be so cruel? She said she is still going to our first family therapy session. Her brother told me that she will be away for all of July and August! I hear everything second hand. The baby will forget me she is only two years old and my daughter is punishing me but worst she is punishing her own little girl! I have to tread so lightly as I know she will stop me seeing the baby. I feel sick all the time not only with my ailments but with worry and pain. I am looking forward to the therapy but am also scared that she will use this opportunity just to beat me over the head. I want to use the therapy to move forward and clear the air in a non attacking manner. It will take a few sessions to hopefully get to a good place, as its been at least 15 years of her hating me. She has demonised me to the point that I am even questioning myself if shes right? But when i am strong I remember that I have always been there for her through good and bad and am always helping her in any way I can. she knows I love her and uses this against me. I know that we had rough times when she was a teenager right up until she left home around 22 years old, as she refused to get a job have entitlement issues. Her Dad is a multi millionaire and all her rich friends didn't work, but I don't have that type of money to keep her so insisted she finish university and get a job. In the end she did neither. She resented me, was rude, abusive verbally and physically. She called me so many disgusting names so many times that I didn't care anymore. She wished me dead many times. I in turn argued back and tried to justify things. But the reality was that she had no respect for me at all and still hasn't. After looking at forums, my biggest fear may be realised. She will stop contact with me and I will never see my grandchild again. This will devastate me and she knows it. I just want a loving relationship with her or at least a more honest relationship. All parents make mistakes we all try our hardest, and we are not perfect. Life isn't perfect. Life is not black and white, there is a grey area. People are not good or bad, they are flawed. We all are flawed. I don't know how much to let my guard down at the therapy incase she uses things I say against me. Do I put a wall up or show my emotion, which she always hates? Help!!

 

[BusynMember]

You didn't do anything wrong. If your daughter has a personality disorder, it doesn't matter what you did or do right or wrong. She will be mean to you anyway and therapy between the two of you won't forge a good friendship. Personality disordered people like to hurt others, which is why they do what they do. That is their motive. There is no other motive.
Unfortunately, they often take grandchildren with them. They are powerful "hurting" points.

The best thing you can do for yourself is to stop looking at what you did wrong. She is a disordered, differently wired person who would do this to any parent. She needs a scapegoat. You are probably more vulnerable t han others in her life and that's why she picked you.

If you can do it, try to accept that this is HER and she is what she is and try to live your own life the best you can. You have other loved ones, friends, a job, hobbies, a full life just waiting for you and it won't change your daughter to destroy yourself over things she is incapable of understanding. There is a concept called radical acceptance. I straongly recommend it. I will post a link about it. If you can, read the whole article. It is eye-opening and gives you a new coping skill which is very effective. I hope you choose to move on, with or without her, and stop trying to wonder what you did wrong. It is HER, not you. Maybe she inherited some personality problems from your ex. Ex may be gone, but the DNA is still in your daughter and perhaps she inherited his meanness, if he is mean. Unfortunately, usually nature trumps nurture. If she got too much of his DNA, well, she may be just like he is and be unwilling to do the hard work it takes to admit she is a problem and work hard in good therapy to change herself. Doesn't sound like she is at t hat point. She may never be.

My personal advice which you can take or leave as it suits you is to move on. Unfortunately your grandchild is not going to get enough time with you. In your heart, you know this. And the law is not on the side of grandparents. If they want to use their kids against us, our grown children can do it. I know. It socks.

http://www.tarabrach.com/articles/trauma.html

 

[Childofmine]

Relationships based on fear and power aren't real relationships. There is no way a relationship like that can create anything good.

Step away.

Yes, you may pay a price with the grandchild, and that is something you are going to have to work on accepting.

As long as you are terrified of that possibility, and you can't sit and learn to live with the idea that this may happen, and while it would hurt terribly, you would survive it, she's "got you."

You can't function like that, in a relationship where there is a carrot dangling, as you so aptly put it, and she snatches away and gives at will.

That can't work on any level.

I believe we have to accept reality. This is work WE have to do. This has nothing to do with other people.

All around us, in every single aspect of our lives, we have things we don't like and that hurt us. We have to learn to do what we can...and then accept the outcome.

You have done what you can. It doesn't work. Now, your only recourse is to deal with the reality of the situation, with all sides of the pain of it all, and work to accept it.

This again takes WORK. It isn't something that will come to you in a flash...one day you feel full acceptance.

You will go back and forth, resisting, grieving, wishing, trying...but in the end, we can't change other people and what they do. We just can't. It doesn't matter anymore what is right. What should be. What we wish for.

What matters is...what is.

That is a truth I have learned and I will spend the rest of my life learning to live with it.

**My Difficult Child is with a girl that is very bad for him. Okay, that IS. I can't do a thing about that. I have to accept it. It will either change or it won't. It's his life.

**My brother is a dysfunctional person who is an alcoholic. He is 50 years old and lives with my parents. He has no friends and no life outside his full time job, spending time with my parents, and drinking. I used to worry and fret and wish I could "help him have a better life." It is what it is. He will change it himself or he won't. I can't do a thing about that. I have to accept it. It's his life.

**My older son is getting married. They have completely botched every aspect of the wedding planning and have hurt and alienated people in the process. They don't want my help. My job: to show up at the wedding with a smile and accept whatever it is. I have to accept it. It's their life.

**I have a client who is being very difficult all of a sudden. I can't change how they act. I can only decide what I will do. I'm giving our next project another chance. If it doesn't work, all of the talking from me in the world won't change a thing. It is what it is. It's not about me. I have to accept it, and my choice may be to walk away.

There are so many "wrong things" all around us. If only....but that's a Cinderella story and a pipe dream.

Yes, we should and can help to make things better in healthy ways when it is appropriate and right for us to have a role and get involved.

But most of the time, we can't fix, manage or control other people and what they say and do. In Al-Anon we say we are powerless over people, places and things. Think about it: That's EVERYTHING!

We only can control---and oftentimes even THAT is impossible---ourselves.

In many ways, it's a huge relief to finally understand what is our business and what is not our business. Our business is our lives. Other people's lives are their business.

I am writing all of this talking to myself as well as you. This bears repeating, I believe. I need to hear it and absorb it over and over. The more I do, the happier I am.

Hang in there. We are here for you. We have compassion and we understand how hard all of this is. The standard isn't perfection---it's progress.

Warm hugs today.

 

[Lioness]

Thank you for all your kind words. I keep re reading all your comments and know that I need to take heed and try to make changes in myself. The pain is unbearable and I think this whole situation is making me very unwell. I despise myself as I must cut a pathetic figure. The more upset I get, the happier I think I make my Borderline Daughter. I try so hard not to show any emotion as she looks at me with such contempt. I have two other children, who are more kind and loving. Good friends and a good husband. What more could I want really? I hanker after a grown up loving relationship with my eldest daughter and a close relationship with my Grand daughter. My Grand daughter is the light of my life, and she loves staying overnight with us. This is why I tread so carefully. Once my youngest moves out which will be in the next six months, I have many plans to move on with my life. Some more drastic than others. Hopefully I will have more money to indulge myself a bit more, i.e. have a short break with my friends, holiday with my husband. Sell my house and downsize will help with this. I also want to get back to Yoga as this really helped me. My life is full but I can't help but wish for the impossible, I know this. After work today I will re read your posts as they are always so wise and knowledgeable. Thanks again everyone.

 

[Lioness]

Only two more days till my first therapy session with my Daughter. Aaargh! Wish me luck and strength.

 

[BusynMember]

I wish you luck and low expectations. Don't expect more than is realistic.

If you feel it is turning into an abuse match, you can leave.

More likely the therapist will question HER and she will storm out.

Don't expect a thunderbolt to happen and make your daughter see the light. My guess is s he is going to have an ally (therapist) to beat up on you. That's not why you are going. Respect yourself and don't get angry back. Lift your chin and leave if it gets too brutal.

Of course I hope it works out the way you want it to, but I always preach not to get too excited or expect too much.

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

She dangles the carrot then takes it away! How can she be so cruel?

She does these things on purpose, Lioness.

Perhaps the only person she can see as real is herself.

I don't know how much to let my guard down at the therapy incase she uses things I say against me. Do I put a wall up or show my emotion, which she always hates?

I wish you would go to therapy for yourself, Lioness. Without your daughter. If you are determined to do this with her, my suggestion would be to display every bit of emotion. Cry out loud about your fear that she will use your love for your grandchildren against you. Cry right out loud about the name calling and the hurt of it.

Fight for yourself, Lioness.

State your case. We are all not only flawed but we are loved and loving human beings who forgive and who cherish and who move on. It seems to me that your daughter wants to call you bad names, and accuse you of bd things, in front of an "official" witness. Once she has done that, she will stop attending, I think. Don't let her shame you like that, Lioness.

You love her too much, I think.

Have you been seeing your friends and taking care to be gentle and kind to yourself as you go through this time, Lioness?

Gentle hugs for you, this morning.

You must feel so very tired....

Cedar

 

[Lioness]

She does these things on purpose, Lioness.

Perhaps the only person she can see as real is herself.



I wish you would go to therapy for yourself, Lioness. Without your daughter. If you are determined to do this with her, my suggestion would be to display every bit of emotion. Cry out loud about your fear that she will use your love for your grandchildren against you. Cry right out loud about the name calling and the hurt of it.

Fight for yourself, Lioness.

State your case. We are all not only flawed but we are loved and loving human beings who forgive and who cherish and who move on. It seems to me that your daughter wants to call you bad names, and accuse you of bd things, in front of an "official" witness. Once she has done that, she will stop attending, I think. Don't let her shame you like that, Lioness.

You love her too much, I think.

Have you been seeing your friends and taking care to be gentle and kind to yourself as you go through this time, Lioness?

Gentle hugs for you, this morning.

You must feel so very tired....

Cedar

I do need to fight for myself and my fear is that she will use the session to attack me. The problem is I want a resolution and to look forward I don't think she does. I'am hoping the therapist is skilled and will keep it all under control. I have tried to see my friends but it's a struggle as when Iam in emotional turmoil I tend to stay at home and hibernate. I talk to my old school friend who is a psychologist and also a close family friend and she actually is such a level headed good person who sees both sides. She feels that if it doesn't go my Borderline daughter way she will storm out. Itsxa distinct possibility if she does I will be very saddened but use the remaining time for myself. That's if she turns up. Many times she has let people down. I remember a time when I was stranded at hospital when I was on crutches with her promising to pick me up. She never turned up. I called her and she ignored me then didn't soeak to me for 3 weeks as she didn't want to be accountable. My school friend is the only friend I have confided in as we have known each other since we were little. She's non judgemental whereas I'm too ashamed to tell my other friends as they have "good" adult children. It's my shame even though I know logically that really my daughter should be ashamed of herself not me. Thank you so much for listening to my tormented soul. I hope and pray to have the strength to move on with or without her in my life. I come from a very tough background and aren't scsred of anything. I have done a bungee, Sky dive, faced a violent mother. However losing my kids is the biggest fear. Iam vulnerable because all I have ever wanted is a loving family. Thank you Cedar.x

 

[Lioness]

I wish you luck and low expectations. Don't expect more than is realistic.

If you feel it is turning into an abuse match, you can leave.

More likely the therapist will question HER and she will storm out.

Don't expect a thunderbolt to happen and make your daughter see the light. My guess is s he is going to have an ally (therapist) to beat up on you. That's not why you are going. Respect yourself and don't get angry back. Lift your chin and leave if it gets too brutal.

Of course I hope it works out the way you want it to, but I always preach not to get too excited or expect too much.

I wish you luck and low expectations. Don't expect more than is realistic.

If you feel it is turning into an abuse match, you can leave.

More likely the therapist will question HER and she will storm out.

Don't expect a thunderbolt to happen and make your daughter see the light. My guess is s he is going to have an ally (therapist) to beat up on you. That's not why you are going. Respect yourself and don't get angry back. Lift your chin and leave if it gets too brutal.

Of course I hope it works out the way you want it to, but I always preach not to get too excited or expect too much.

Somewhere out there, unfortunately what you say is painful to read but very realistic. My ex husband (her Dad) and I went to mediation before we split and he stormed out as it wasn't going his way. They are very much alike and they both advocate the divide and rule, cruel streak and have cut off many friends and family along the way. I need a miracle for it to work. Thank you for everything.x

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

She's non judgemental whereas I'm too ashamed to tell my other friends as they have "good" adult children. It's my shame even though I know logically that really my daughter should be ashamed of herself not me.

It helps me to see it this way: There is no shame. It is the situation that is bad. Not the kids, and not us. I feel so badly that these terrible things happened to all of us, but I am not ashamed of what happened to us, anymore. There is no perfect response that is going to make all this somehow okay. So, we can stop looking for that. We can stop beating ourselves up because our children are so troubled.

We can love them where they are and sometimes, that is all we can do.

Other parents are not dealing with the same kinds of afflictions in their children that we are. Their children moved easily along on their own paths at their own paces and, one way or another, took responsibility for their lives. Troubled kids see the paths they refused to take and blame us. They arrive at the destinations their paths were bound to take them and they blame us for that too. But here is the thing: We did everything it was in our power to do to get them to take a different path. We could not help them then and we cannot help them choose a different path, now.

Only they can do that.

Whether the child we love has an illness or an addiction or whether they hate us on general principles, we could never blame or punish ourselves enough to help either them or ourselves.

It is excruciating to love someone who seems determined to self-destruct. There are so many shades of pain in it. It seems like we have tried so many sure fire solutions that didn't work that we lose faith in ourselves. We feel we deserve to be hurt because we could not help them.

But that isn't true, Lioness.

We did help them. It just didn't work.

So, we have to take our best shot at figuring out how we want to do this and stand up. Your daughter doesn't have to love you. You are her mother. You do love her. She cannot change that about you.

She can punish you in any of a thousand ways, but she cannot make you stop loving her.

She cannot take that away from you.

And really, that is the only thing you can do. Love her. Love yourself too, Lioness. The places we find ourselves with these adult children we love so much are hard, ugly places. We must learn to be gentle with ourselves, for our failures. We must learn to cherish ourselves by intention, even so and no matter what.

You don't have to tell anyone about your child, or how it hurts you that she is so confused and so hateful. That is a private thing. There is no shame in it. You do love her. She is troubled.

It really is such a hard thing, loving our troubled kids the way that we do.

It's so hard that sometimes, we can't even cry about it.

We are like desperate shells of ourselves, and we wonder how that happened to us. For me, and for so many of us here on the site Lioness, we were able to make sense of it somehow, and to find our ways back to that rich center where we used to recognize ourselves and our lives, again. It is a long process, and it is so hard, sometimes. But I think you are beginning to come back too, here with us.

This is a good, kind place Lioness. I am glad you found us, glad you are here with us, now.

Cedar