Becoming involved again...

[Lil]

You're right Honey - it is optimistic. Probably more than it should be. :/

 

[Childofmine]

Lil, we understand. We truly do.

I am hoping you will see good progress from the both of them.

We just never know.

I used to think I could predict outcomes for all kinds of things in life. I have learned I cannot. It has been a very important lesson in my life, and I work hard to remind myself of it when I fall back into my old ways (thinking I can tell what is going to happen or what someone should do).

People do the best they can.

It's an imperfect process in an imperfect world.

Hugs and prayers and my compassion for you and your precious son.

We are here for you no matter what.

 

[Jabberwockey]

Probably more than it should be. :/

Maybe, maybe not. Only time will tell. I wont deny the fact that he has made a bit of positive progress in the last few months. Not a lot, but noticeable none the less. Even if he's only "faking it" for the time being to get our help, maybe he will eventually fake it till he makes it!

 

[New Leaf]

Hi Lil and Jabber,
I have been following along, reading this thread, and seeing it through the eyes of a mother of daughters. Two, in particular, who have struggled with alcoholism, addiction and their searching for their own identities. My comments are just my opinion, but I thought I might do so, just to throw some stuff out there for you to consider. What you do, or do not do, is entirely up to you. I have no right to give you any "shoulds".

I'm really not so much against it. I don't actually mind helping them set up house as long as it doesn't involve us co-signing anything.

These are two very young people who have not even found themselves yet. This is tough.

But part of me is just waiting for this all to blow up in my face. He screwed us over so many times. I want to believe that he's serious about keeping a job and paying for a place to live. He seems to be. I want this to work for him. I want him happy. But I don't want to feel this worry.

There within lies the struggle, yes?
How much do we help, given the track record. What are the possibilities?
Any sign of change, of progress, we grasp at. We want happiness for our children, but they also have to want it for themselves and understand what the definition of happy is. Is it accepting responsibility, is it working towards that, is it....partying?

I wish he had a car. I wish he had the ability to get an apartment on his own. I wish I could help a little without fear of it being the wrong thing to do.

He does have the ability to have all of this, he has yet to see it, to make it happen, on his own.

Then maybe he can save up and look for an apartment, or get his girlfriend down here on his own.

On his own, very important, to take hold of life, get out there and do it. It gives one a sense of accomplishment.

I can say this: If you get involved, and I know you are scared to, for yourself, and for him, and you have every right to be scared...and it goes south again, THEN you may be ready to do something different next time.

Yes, there is no one way. We all have to do what we do, and learn the lesson of it.

I think what we have to focus on mainly, here on this board, is the cost to YOU. The cost to ourselves. How do we hang on to our functionality and our sanity when we are dealing with DCs. That is the key question.

Yes, that is key.

Remember that helping him isn't really helping him. I know that he wants his girlfriend to be with him but that may not be what is best for him. He is still trying to figure out how to live on his own and take care of himself and until he can do that what can he really offer his girlfriend? My concern is that they are together and before you know it she may end up pregnant. If he's set on being with her then it's up to him to figure out how that will happen. You don't need to make it easy for him.

There is much wisdom in this. Helping him isn't really helping him. It is not just the figuring out how to live on his own, take care of himself. He doesn't really know who he is yet, but is focusing on this girl.
This very young girl who is fraught with problems of her own, very troubling problems, blacking out with alcohol. That is very troubling.
Mix the two together.......Add the responsibilities, bills, complexities of living together, chance of pregnancy while both may be using...ouch.
We want to look at the bright side for our children.The bright possibilities. This may work, it may not. Who knows?
My two girls are different, yet similar. They have struggled with addictive issues. One of these, is the need to be with someone, anyone will do for the oldest, the middle has been with an abusive, addicted boyfriend and had three children. My grands lives are chaotic, miserable.
My daughters have not learned to love themselves. That said, how are they capable of truly loving someone else?
They want relationships based on desperation and have made the wrong choices so many times. Watching this unfold has been horrible.

I know the struggle you are facing and the emotions that go with it. You can only do what you can live with. You can do nothing and that's ok. You can do little and that's ok. You can do much and that's ok. There are no right or wrong answers here just advice from those of us who have been through it and survived to tell the tale.

Yes my friends, just advice, from one who has been there watching my daughters flail over and over again. The red flags for me, with your son and this girlfriend, is the using. They are both so young. This is a big responsibility, being a couple, living together. But in the end all, they are adults, it is their choice. What role you both play in this is up to you.

I want to help. I really do. But I know, I really know, that he probably hasn't changed much since I we tossed him out a year ago. I know that it was only a week or so ago that the girl he's renting from now contacted us wanting to kick him out and complaining he smoked weed all day...but I see him quite a lot and I really don't see any evidence that is true. He seems so sincere in his desire to make this relationship work and to get a place of their own. I don't know what to believe.

"But I know, I really know, that he probably hasn't changed much since I we tossed him out a year ago." This is your sensible self speaking to you, Lil. Listen to her.
He seems so sincere in his desire to make this relationship work and to get a place of their own. This is your hopeful self speaking, if he truly is sincere, then he will make it work.
But now, there is also another troubled person in the mix, this girl. This girl who is someones daughter.

I think the worry for me in your post Lil, is that you are thinking of his future, finding an apartment, moving in with the girlfriend, keeping the job, living the life. For me that's the worry. I like that he's working today, that you're speaking today, that he's well today. I have learnt to not think in terms of my son's future, as long as it's ok today. Life is a series of single days.

One day at at a time.

Let him struggle with the current situation he might find his own solutions in time.

Yes I agree with this. There is logic to it, stepping aside from the emotion of it all.

Lil, don't forget this: It's about the struggle. He has to **do the struggle**. That is how he will mature and gain skills and confidence in himself.

Hard is good. Let hard happen for him.

By you intervening and handling hard, he doesn't have a chance to navigate the real world, and thus, he won't navigate the real world.

I know it's really hard to step back, but that is the challenge in front of all of us.

Hard....navigate.... he has to find his path. Years down the road, when he has regrets, as we all do, he has to say to himself, "What was I thinking", not "Why didn't my parents tell me?" Of course you have told him, but in retrospect, by helping him opens up a whole other message.

The girl friend can call about apartments. They need to do that for themselves.

I agree.

She doesn't really want to come here, partly because she is young and its a HUGE change, partly because she has seen our son screw up their living situation time and again so is probably afraid that he will do it again and she will be even further from home.

This is my mother of daughters voice. This girl with her fears, is right. I am not saying that your son cannot turn around and fix this. But he needs to concentrate on himself and fix himself first.
This girl needs to fix herself, first.
That is my instinct with this, and also my experience, watching my two girls struggle. As they have made a mess of their lives, they have made a mess of their boyfriends, their childrens' lives. Stunted by addiction, in every way. All of them.

The problem is that her mommy and fixing instincts tend to override her reason. He asks me for a pack of cigarettes, I tell him to support his own habits. He asks Lil for a pack and she buys two.

I have done this as well. Wanting to see my children happy.

My biggest concern with our son right now is the distinct possibility that his new found focus is ALL because of this girl. If she comes down here and they fail and she goes home, he will be devastated. I think that he is honestly trying to change, but he's trying to do it for her, not for himself. I can tell you from personal experience that this can be a recipe for disaster.

This is a very real possibility.

She needs stability and, in order for them to be together, he has to prove to her that he can provide it.

She needs to stabilize herself.

She's also only 18 and I'm pretty sure has never handled something like this before.

If she were your daughter, would you recommend this move? Your son is your son, whom you love, problems and all.
This girl is someones daughter.

When it comes to our son though, I guess what keeps going through my mind is, "What if he's really serious? What if he's really trying? What if he fails this time because he needed one hand up from us and we turned our backs?"

He may be really serious, this may work, but it is up to him. You are not turning your backs by not helping, you are giving him his wings. You are saying to him, "If you really are serious about this and want to make it work, you can do it."

but sometimes it becomes more and more and before you know it. you're back to full-on enabling. Tread cautiously and ask yourself, "am I working harder than he is?"

This is a good exercise.

I think the bottom line is.. what decision can YOU live with? This should be his struggle so he matures and figures out his own solutions to problem solving, but as a mom that's so much easier said than allow. We want to help them because we're afraid if we don't, they'll fail. But they may fail with our help.

Very true.

What the man, in his kindness and haste did not understand, was that the restricting cocoon and the struggle required to get through the tiny opening were natures way of forcing fluid from the body of the butterfly into its wings. It would then be ready for flight once it achieved its freedom from the cocoon.

Sometimes struggles are exactly what we need in our lives.

Love this story, thank you Tanya.

If he were really trying then he would not be asking for any help, he would find his own way. Him "failing" has nothing to do with you and what you did or did not do for him, you do no have that kind of power. He needs to own the responsibility of his own life.

Yes he does.

" Adulting" is hard.

This is great, I still find it hard.

He's one of those people who always wants to "have people" around. If he doesn't have friends to hang out with he's completely "woe is me". He wants a girlfriend and says she's the only one who doesn't think he's a loser.

He wants a girlfriend and says she's the only one who doesn't think he's a loser. Is he settling, then Lil? Coming from a point of desperation, has he picked someone with her own very real problems because he is settling? Whatever the case, he will have to figure this out on his own. There is much to this statement. I read it as "She is the only one that will have me the way I am."
So, what possibilities does he have to change, how will he find himself?

He also seems to want to "rescue" her a bit. He goes on about how she needs to get out of the place she lives, how she's doing things she shouldn't, drinking, etc., because she's so unhappy.

Addiction and enabling, rescuing, settling.
This is the life my daughters have led, and it is hard to watch.
Each of them choosing mates who live the same lifestyle, so they can continue on status quo.
Each of them struggling, not ever finding themselves and their potential, because they have found mates who are entrenched in the same lifestyle.

He apparently has told her she can't "escape her problems" by drinking. Wow. I informed him I couldn't help but hear his voice in my head about how "Pot is the only thing that makes him happy." Of course he advised me that alcohol is a depressant and pot isn't. Let's just say...she's done some things while, apparently, black-out drunk that would cause most guys to break up with her -

Same as above, this is frightening.

but he's willing to forgive, worries about her being unsafe, and still wants her to come here. He's actually used the phrase, "She's young and she has to learn from her mistakes."

I just don't even know what to think about that.

Me too, LIl.

With respect to the girl, I would stay far, far away from that. But that is me.

Me, too.

in my opinion girlfriend is her own responsibility. i wouldnt help her under any circumstance. she barely knows your son. providing him with hot sex on my dime would not happen. son should be mature enough to understand or he is not changed yet.

Yes. These are two, very mixed up young adults.

Would I rather he did it alone for a few months? Yes. But maybe having someone depend on HIM instead of the other way around is what he needs...

Don't know about this one, Lil.
Especially after watching Tornado and Volcano for 11 years. Drawn to each other through addictive lifestyles, they are a wrecking ball. Add three children, absolute misery.

I hope I have not offended either of you. I hope you find peace in the decisions you make. The ultimate end of it, these are two adults, it is their responsibility to make this work. If they truly want it to, they will. It is a very, very shaky ground for a relationship for both of them

Nobody should just settle.
One has to prove one can help themselves, love themselves before they can truly help and love someone else.
There is time for you to think this over.
Try not to get sucked in it the swirly-whirly of it.

Peace and good day to you both
leafy

 

[InsaneCdn]

You're right Honey - it is optimistic. Probably more than it should be. :/

Reality: We cannot write the outcome of the story. Either bad, or good. It's on them.

(they told me parenting would be challenging, but nobody said it would be THIS hard!)

 

[Lil]

I hope I have not offended either of you.

You have not. Your post was well thought out and from the heart and I appreciate it.

I'm not the mother of daughters. I know this girl is someone's daughter, but she choose to leave her parents and, though she has had ample opportunity, to not return. I have never met her. Jabber's sister said she seemed like a nice girl.

Will she be bad or good for my son? I don't know. Will he be bad or good for her? I don't know. I do think he wants to be good for her.

Her drinking concerns me too. It also concerns my son very much. He's worried about her and says she didn't do this when he was with her.

In the end, I'm not her mother - I'm his. But I will tell you this - if he hurts her - he'll answer to ME. (I don't mean physically - I don't think he'd ever do that, but hurt is hurt.) I did not raise him to be the lazy pot-head he has been the last few years, but then he hurt no one but himself, and by extension Jabber and me. If she decides she wants to leave him, I will take her wherever she wants to go - no questions asked. I fully intend to tell them both so. If they break up, I will NOT leave her stranded in this town so far from her family.

 

[pasajes4]

There is time. He just started working and has not gotten a place to live. Time and distance change things.

 

[Lil]

Well he called one of the landlords last night, the cheapest, and they want him to come this weekend, meet them, view the apartment. They've told him they will hold the apartment if he pays the deposit...which the girlfriend will have to send him the money for. That's their problem to deal with. I wouldn't do it, but I'm not in love with him. They haven't checked yet to see if there will be an electric deposit. If the bill has been small enough, there may not be - he didn't have one at the other apartment - pity for the electric company since he didn't pay the bill. She has to take care of that too - since he owes a bill. It's looking like this might happen.

They'll definitely have to do this on their own. Even if we were inclined to help, we couldn't. We're pinching pennies in order to be able to pay the down and closing on the real estate we're looking at. (Which we may be getting - we're the high offer right now! )

 

[pasajes4]

That is awesome about the property. It is time for you to do for yourselves. If they are grown enough to live together, than they need to be grown enough to fund it themselves.

 

[sadandfrustrated]

We're pinching pennies in order to be able to pay the down and closing on the real estate we're looking at. (Which we may be getting - we're the high offer right now! )

I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you! Keep us posted please...

 

[New Leaf]

Oooooooooh! crossing fingers you get the place, so happy for you both Lil.

The young ones shall have to figure things out. You folks have done so much for your son, he must see that and know it deep down.

I am glad you have this wonderful prospect ahead of you. A new adventure.

Wishing all the best for you and yours.
Leafy

 

[AppleCori]

OK, guys, you know the drill....

details, details, details!

What property?

House, land?

Details!

 

[Jabberwockey]

Same farmhouse we had talked about before. The last bid fell through. We just got a counter offer that, while at the same price we offered, throws a couple of conditions that could be costly for us. They want $1000 earnest money and to close Nov. 30th, making it fairly difficult for us to get an inspection to find out if its worth the money.

 

[Childofmine]

Jabber and Lil, I am really glad you have this goal of your own to focus on right now. This is no coincidence.

It's time for you to use your lives and your resources for YOU. I hope this works out, or if it doesn't, you find another property that is the right one for you.

I hope you can stay on this path of focusing on your lives more and more. It's where we all need to be.

 

[AppleCori]

Can you move into the farmhouse without fixing it up first, or will you live in your current house until renovations are done?

Do they have the inspection report from the previous offer that fell through?

 

[BusynMember]

So happy for you two!

 

[Jabberwockey]

There are several windows that will need replaced, no big deal. As for is it immediately livable, we just don't know. Sorry, but we have a noon deadline to answer so will give details in a bit.

 

[New Leaf]

crossing fingers it will work out and all will be ok

 

[Jabberwockey]

Just found out there is a busted pipe as well. I think we've decided to accept their counter offer.

 

[New Leaf]

WOW! How exciting. Happy for you both!


leafy