Dieting question Copa or others...Keto with fasting

Discussion in 'The Watercooler' started by SomewhereOutThere, Oct 10, 2018 at 1:38 PM.

  1. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    I am doing keto now but not sure how to fast too and still stay healthy. Any help would be greatly appreciated! I just bought a dress for my daughter's wedding in a smaller size so I am very motivated :). I have time...until August. But still!

    Thanks to anyone!
     
  2. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    Hi SWOT

    I am an extremist so take everything I write with a grain of salt. There is a lot of counsel on the internet. This is where I would start reading, and I will then tell you what I did.

    There is an MD out of Toronto whose name is Jason Fung. He is a nephrologist or kidney specialist. He talks about intermittent fasting. There are lots of writings and youtube videos. He is very easy to understand. He talks some about keto, too.

    There is also a site I think it is called dietdoctor.com that explains the science.

    So. There are 3 concepts.

    One is to eat in a time window of say 6 hours a day, but this is variable. The idea here is to NOT EAT for at least 16 hours a day. Say, eating between 8am and 2pm or noon to 6. That is one version of intermittent fasting but there are other versions. For example one is for 2 days a week, to eat less than 450 calories if you are a smallish woman. And on the other 5 days eat normally. (There is research that supports that eating under that caloric amount is considered to be fasting by the body.) I did this and did not lose much so considered it not worth the pain.

    There is also the idea of time restricted eating. There is research that says that the body wants to eat earlier in the day, and does not want to eat later. This I have found true for me. While I have an easy time not eating in the morning, it is not so good for me.

    The 3rd concept is the Keto. Where carbs are drastically reduced to typically less that 20 per day, at first.

    To me all of these concepts are linked. I will explain how I understand and experience this. First. If you are eating 16 hours a day, particularly carbs your body has no incentive and no practice of turning to fat deposits to burn. Carbs are a very easy form of energy to burn in the form of stored glucose. Stored glucose also gloms onto water and we hold a lot of water weight if we eat a lot of carbs. If you go on keto the first week you can lose lots of weight, like 6 or 8 pounds for some people. That is largely water weight, but it sure feels good to let go of it. The other thing you will realize if you cut out carbs is that you have way more self-control with your eating. Carbs are addictive. You eat them and you want more. At least I am that way. The one draw back is that initially many people get the Keto flu. They feel weak at first. This soon passes. Keto is really a lovely way to eat.

    I love carbs more than anything. I love pie. I love sweets. I love bread. I love potatoes. When I eat these I cannot stop. CANNOT STOP. It is a good feeling to know that I can choose. I can choose to have a carb day, and then the next day, go back to KETO. You will have to shop. New staples for me which I NEVER bought before are: half and half and almond butter. I eat cheese. I eat Yogurt. I eat steak. I cook for myself completely differently than for M. It is manageable to me. I see food now more as fuel.

    This is what I did at first which was radical and probably stupid.

    What I did to lose weight fast was to greatly reduce my carbohydrates to 20.
    And I at only between 8am and 2pm. In 10 days I lost 8lbs. And I maintained it and lost a bit more, without much effort.

    After the 10 days, I kept my carbs to probably 20 to 30, but with more flexibility. I will have a glass of wine when I am out, if I want. Or even eat a regular meal. But I go back to the keto right away. And I am not stopping eating at 2. Sometimes I go to 5pm. Which would be a 16 hour fast and I find that not hard at all. They say that the body does not recognize as breaking the fast, less than 50 calories. So, I do not stress if I put milk in tea, etc.

    You have 10 months. That is a long time. Normally I can only lose a pound a month!!! That is why I got radical. But even a pound a month for you would be 10 pounds by the wedding.

    The one thing that I realize now is that EXERCISE does not help with weight loss. The research supports this. I was exercising 10 hours a week. Exercise has all kinds of benefits. But weight loss? No. Not in my experience.

    I want to get back to my exercise though. The weather is cooling off here, I just might start back this week. Good luck. Let me know what you decide to do.

    Many people do Keto for health alone. There is something very stabilizing and purifying about cutting down carbs, for me. And the principle of not eating all of the time, and giving the body a rest is also sound, to me. We were not designed to graze. To fast to a limited extent is normal and healthy in my view.
     
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  3. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    Thank you. I had already studied up on the carb part, which I used to think was dangerous, but have spoken with my doctor and no longer am worried. It was the fasting part that confused me! Now I understand! Thank you! I can do that. Is there any one book that explains it so that I can refresh?

    I tend to lise fast and exercising helps me but I am far more apt to walk a brisk 3-5 miles a day or even jog a bit these days. I have a fitbit and try to get to 10k steps. If I exer ise too hard I am very sore the next day and I dont think that is good for me anymore.

    I will let you know how it goes. Like tou I love carbs so I try not to cheat or I can screw up for a few days. I will start to think like you....food is the gas that makes this car (body) go lol. Good idea. As long as I can have my coffee, I should be good.

    Thanks again for explaining this to me!
     
  4. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    That is what I was doing. I walked 75 minutes which was about 4 miles and got the rest of it in activity during the day. That seemed healthy to me. But I did not lose weight.

    I do not know of a book that explains it together. But really SWOT. It is just 2 google searches: the first is Jason Fung, intermittent fasting (or) dietdoctor.com intermittent fasting AND time restricted eating.

    On the basis of what I wrote you could come up with a plan. You know already a lot about what your body needs and responds to. Why not write out in a post a few guidelines and see where you are? I am curious.

    What are you eating now in a day? And when?
     
  5. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    Hmmmm. Eggs for breakfast. Maybe a hamburger with cheese for lunch. Dinner is a crapshoot but on low carbs Im not very hungry. Some meat with maybe broccoli. Thats the beauty. Oh and I love heavy cream in my coffee! No carbs!
     
  6. Nomad

    Nomad Well-Known Member

    I’m doing WW , but tweak it so that it’s on the low carb side. And several days a week I skip breakfast. Goofy. Lol.

    I would like to hear from others doing Keto. It’s so interesting. What are you eating typically for meals Copa? Are you finding it easy to follow?

    I have an old friend from graduate school doing this very successfully. She had a horrible time losing weight. We for the most part lost touch, but I see her on FB. Holy cow. She lost like close to 100 pounds I’d say in 11-12 months. She looks great. For her, it’s the only diet that has ever worked. I’m super impressed.
     
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  7. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    For breakfast I eat yogurt with walnuts. Or if I have made them I eat Keto muffins which are delicious: eggs, cheddar cheese--in the blender with a little half and half, and chopped vegetables added after(usually I used sautéed spinach) but others use mushrooms, peppers, etc. cooked first. (You can use leftover vegetables from dinner.) Chop the vegetables. Use mini muffin tins greased (or sprayed). Cook in preheated oven at 350 degrees. The time depends upon how big are your muffin tins. These keep easily for 4 days. I can eat them all day. The proportions are flexible. For 5 eggs I use a splash of cream, a little salt, a big chunk of cheddar which I add to the blender in a few pieces. I prefer them cold. M does not like them with the spinach so I make some for him that way. He carries them to work and munches on them. They are done when a couple of them puff up like soufflé. For mini muffins I do 15 minutes or so.

    So. My breakfast is either yogurt or these.
    Nomad. That is my breakfast. Sometimes I forget to eat. I just have coffee with cream. And if I remember to eat I eat a tablespoon of almond butter. Or a small handful of walnuts. My appetite is much decreased without the carbs. I truly think I eat from real hunger as opposed to craving.

    For lunch, if I had the egg things, I will eat cottage cheese or yogurt. Or sometimes I have a steak (for breakfast or lunch).

    I am usually a big big salad eater but for some reason my craving for raw vegetables has decreased. I eat roasted vegetables. Like roasted peppers. Or roasted carrots. Or roasted cauliflower. I love those. Or sautéed spinach with garlic. Or my very favorite of all: green beans stewed in olive oil and lots of garlic. All of those are okay. I eat avocado. You will see that carrots and peppers have carbs, but my view is that letting myself have them serves my health and happiness and so it is worth it. (I don't remember if I at carrots the first 10 days. I may not have.) Especially if I am doing other things good, like stopping eating early in the day. Eating after dinner is NO GOOD. Nothing. Except I do have milk in my tea.

    On most days I doubt if I eat 900 calories. Yesterday I had a splurge day. I went to a café and had a big cookie. On the train I had wine. At home I ate a small baguette and 5 oz of lox. And I was okay with it. I felt polluted but went right back to eating Keto today.

    Today I ate: a few walnuts. And a steak. That is all I wanted. And coffee with cream. But yesterday I went crazy with the bread. Maybe my body is using the glucose stored from that splurge.

    In the way I did this at first I deliberately stopped eating at 2. That was extreme. I do not eat dinner with M *or any other meal at home. Strangely. I cook FOR HIM. But they are typically meals I do not much like. So that simplifies things. But we eat early. He likes to eat by 4. So cutting off eating at 4 would be great too.

    You could eat big salads, with tuna. You can eat some beans. I eat Hummus. I like it with red peppers. I am a big olive eater. I would eat olives and feta with a salad and chicken. For me it is easier to make my food universe small.

    That is what I do.
     
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    Last edited: Oct 10, 2018 at 5:38 PM
  8. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    SWOT. Your meal plan sounds great. You would be well served I think to not eat after dinner, and eat dinner as early as you can do it. What time do you eat dinner?

    The longest interval between dinner and your breakfast the better. Like if you can eat dinner at 5 and then breakfast at 9 that would be optimal. If you get up at 730, have coffee with a splash of half and half. They say that the fast should be 16 hours or more.

    Heavy cream is even better than half and half.
     
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  9. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    Copa when I get home. Usually around five.

    Wow you sound like an amazing cook :) i can be lazy!
     
  10. Tired out

    Tired out Active Member

    I do WW too. I am lifetime member. in 2011 I decided to loose all the baby weight. I lost 27 lbs and got to goal in 6 weeks, did the 6 week maintenance and wa la have kept it off for 7 years. I go to WW meetings at least 2x/month. Hello I am addict and like chocolate :).
    I log 15-20000 steps /day. I try to start my day with a hour walk/run. I have a weight lift routine I follow after dinner --I have a handicapped son that I am required to lift so my body strength and mechanics is important. At this point I am 11 lbs below goal--I am in the right spot for my height according the the heart association. I am only 5'2" so weight likes to jump on me with no warning (almond joy hello 2lbs :( )
    I hope you find a life style plan that works for you.
     
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  11. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    Whaattt? I lose on average ONE POUND PER MONTH. And that is with walking 4 miles (it takes me 75 minutes) and doing 3 hours of resistance each week. Plus walking around all day.

    Except I stopped the walking when I began the intermittent fasting and Keto. I felt weaker.
    That is tremendous. Do you do work where you are active?
    I am a good cook but M likes Mexican food and I am NOT a good Mexican cook. That is why we do not eat together. Or at least one reason. Another is that I cannot prepare most food I love because I would eat too much. If I eat at all I would gain weight. I have to watch myself because I think I have become borderline anorexic. I think I am so phobic about gaining weight I do not have an appetite.

    SWOT. Your plan sounds absolutely perfect. All of those vegetables I mentioned are super-simple and quick to make.
     
  12. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    Copa thanks very much for introducing me to Dr. Fung! I have been listening to him and will try his fasting. I am not all that hungry with mostly protein. Anorexic.. I have sern it, dont want it, and dont feel I could get to that point. But I can control my eating for my health. I am in REALLY amazing health for my age and can do mostly what I have always done. I dont have or want to have restrictive arthritis, diabetes or high blood pressure like most of my senior friends. I think eating healthy and moving is the key. Also meditating and purging the stressful folks frim my world.

    Thank you for yet another method to stay healthy!

    I do not believe we die (I know we live
    many lives eternally) and am not afraid. I am afraid of being frail and sickly though anld for as long as I have in this lifetime I hope to maintain good health any way I can.

    Thanks again. You are such a good friend. So kind. I wish we could have coffee....just once :)

    Have a lovely day.
     
  13. Elsi

    Elsi Active Member

    This is a great thread! Copa thanks for sharing your information - you are a great researcher!

    I’m also doing time restricted eating (10 - 6) and occasional liquid fast days (maybe two a month). I’m still getting enough calories on the liquid days to not feel woozy, but it’s all in smoothy, vegetable juice or bone broth form. It gives my digestive system a rest and seems to jump start my metabolism.

    I’ve done Keto, and I did lose weight, but I didn’t feel good on it. I think what I’ve learned more than anything is that we all have individual biochemistry and neurology. While some basic principles apply for all, I think we all need to tweak to find the magic formula that works for us.

    For me, that has been something called the Wahls Protocol from Dr. Terry Wahls. It is closer to paleo than keto. I’ll explain more below. It is specifically designed to help people with MS and other autoimmune disorders. Dr. wahls put it together to treat her own debilitating MS. We ran into it because my sister and two cousins have MS, and the rest of us seem to have a variety of autoimmune things going on. I was struggling with peripheral neuropathy, severe migraines, fatigue and unexplained seizures. I have some lesions on my spine but it has not added up to an MS diagnosis so far - they are just keeping an eye on me.

    On this plan, I feel great - clear thinking, more energy, migraines down to once a month, no seizures, no peripheral neuropathy unless I’m severely overtired. My sister has done well too - she had over 100 active lesions on her brain, with more popping up all the time, even on aggressive medications. Those lesions don’t go away but she has stopped developing new ones and most are no longer considered active. I am. NOT saying this is a replacement for her medications, she sill needs those, but medications alone didn’t get it under control, and this seems to be working. It has also really helped my partner, who has hashimotos thyriod - another autoimmune. I am not on any medications right now and my lesions are not growing.

    Exercise is also really important for me, but I agree with Copa that it did not help me lose weight. I used to run, until my body told me to stop. I actually used to gain weight while training for half marathons. (I was training for a full when I developed the autoimmune problems that put an end to that.). After I stopped running, and was put on various medications, I put on 50 pounds in 6 months. On keto, I yo-yo’d - I wasn’t able to maintain it, and as soon as I cheated The weight just seemed to go back on faster and faster. (Tired, I hear you with gaining 2 pounds on a single candy bar! How does that happen?) I am not doing Wahls primarily for weight loss - and I try not to focus too much on weight - but 40 pounds has come back off pretty naturally over the last year. I would love to lose another 20, but I am not going to stress about it.

    I had a big wake up call on weight and self esteem issues recently when E, my youngest, confessed to me that she is struggling with bulemia. She is the only one of mine who struggles with weight - the rest of them are all skinny, C and S too skinny. Not coincidentally, she is also my only bio child. We are built to withstand famine, I guess. Also carry a lot of muscle, so the scale tends to tip higher even when we are doing well - what I know is an ideal weight for me is still considered slightly overweight by BMI alone. She lost 40 pounds before her wedding and was thrilled. Then has kept losing since. She is at what is probably her ideal weight now, but all those BMI charts still tell her she is too heavy. So she got obsessed with losing ‘that last ten pounds’. And that has led to some very unhealthy behaviors. She is being open and honest with me and with her husband, because she realizes she is heading into trouble and wants us to help check her. But it’s been heartbreaking to see how much her self esteem is tied into weight and weight loss. Sometimes the things we do for health can slip into unhealthy obsessions. So I’m trying to avoid getting obsessed with the scale and just focus on how I’m feeling.

    You can google Dr. Terry Wahls but the basis of the diet is very close to paleo, but with an emphasis on the plant side of the equation. No grains, no dairy. (I discovered dairy was a big trigger for my neuropathy, and simple carbs and sugars send me into a depression spiral. A pancake breakfast last year sent me into a 3-day spiral with severe suicidal ideation. Once you start limiting your diet, you start to see the connections when you reintroduce things temporarily.)

    The basis of the diet is nine cups of fruits and veggies every day:
    3 cups leafy greens
    3 cups bright colors (berries, tomatoes, red peppers, beets, carrots, acorn or butternut squash, etc.)
    3 cups high-sulfur veggies (cruciferous veggies like broccoli and cauliflower, Brussels sprouts, onions, garlic, etc. - sulfur is necessary for eliminating toxic wastes in the cells that stimulate autoimmune reactions)

    Measurements are in raw form - a lot of these cook down quite a bit in practice. You’ll notice that things like white potatoes and apples don’t fit in here - they are neither leafy, nor brightly colored (except skins), nor sulfurous. We still eat them occasionally, but they don’t count towards the total.

    On top of that, high-quality protein. Wahls is big on organ meats, and my sister does those, but I don’t like eating mammals so I stick mainly to fish and eggs. Also nuts and nut butters, in moderation. Cured meats (bacon, deli meats, etc.) are a huge migraine trigger for me, so we dont do those, either.

    I’ve learned I can handle a small amount of goat cheese or Parmesan for flavor, but that’s it in the dairy department. We cheat a bit and mix in brown rice a couple times a week for Buddha bowls. We do a lot of spaghetti squash or zucchini noodles with sauces that include lots of bright and sulfurous veggies in them. A lot of homemade soups. Copa’s keto muffins but without the cheese, or with just a sprinkle of Parmesan for flavor. Omelets. Fish with a big salad or a side of cooked veggies. My first meal is usually a smoothy with one cup berries and 2-3 cups leafy greens, with a hard boiled egg on the side. Lunch is usually hummus and veggies with a piece of fruit on the side. It’s really simplified my eating, which I really like.

    I still can’t run, but we set up an exercise room in the basement with an elliptical, rowing machine, recumbent bike, weights and a punching bag. I aim for at least 45 minutes of cardio every work day first thing in the morning, followed by 20 minutes of weights, yoga or kick boxing. Weekends we do more outdoor things and heavier house and garden chores, so I give myself a break from my weekday routine.

    I’m still not skinny, but I’m at a weight I can live with and I feel great most days. When I slip from either the diet or exercise routine I notice right away in my fatigue levels, migraine frequency and neuropathy. Not to mention depression and anxiety. This may not work for everyone the way it works for me, but it has been the magic formula for both me and my partner.
     
  14. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    I tried vegan and I gained weight. Too hungry on it. Always hungry. I need to stick ti high protein and lower carb veggies. Funny how we are all different. You would be amazed how a vegan can become heavy. Not all, of course, but for people like me who get hungry on plants only.

    Do remember that drug use causes anorexia. That is artificial skinny. My daughter was way too skinny on meth. I like her much better normal and not on meth/cocaine. So skinny and on drugs is often due to the drugs.

    Eating disorders are never healthy so I never ever talk too much about weight to my kids. Too many especially in my family, including an uncle, have been OBSESSED with weight, over exercising and food. It is never healthy to think about body image that much. Its a mental illness, too common even with boys these days. I have seen and heard the food, weight, exercise obsession. Worse, I have witnessed it. Over excercising is a big symptom...sometimes that isnt healthy either.

    My anorexic uncle did not end up healthy. He was aafood obsesdive and over exerciser. Th verdict is out on the other two in my FOO who obsess about weight, exercise and food. It can easily turn from okay to ill. It can be all ypu think about. That isnt normal. You can develop eating disorders at any age. It most commonly develops when young and is hard to get over and it can actually destroy your health. See Karen Carpenter.

    Just wanted to remind everyone that dieting should not become an obsession. It is alarming to see emaciated people who think they look normal and who keep dieting.

    Diet sensibly!! Stay healthy!

    Love and light :)
     
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    Last edited: Oct 11, 2018 at 7:15 AM
  15. Elsi

    Elsi Active Member

    I can't do vegan either! I eat a lot of fish, a lot of eggs, and occasional poultry. I need the protein, too, but I've discovered I don't need it in every meal. We do something vegetarian for dinner 2-3 times per week (Buddha bowl with lots of veggies and tofu and nuts for protein, or the zucchini noodles with sauce). But you could easily add any kind of meat to these. For my purposes, the most important thing is to get those 9 cups of veggies IN, one way or another. It's the antioxidants, sulfurs and other micronutrients that help with the autoimmune issues.

    I definitely agree with you about the dangers of obsessing. I'm trying to help E get back on track and emphasize health and wellness rather than weight, size or appearance. Fortunately, she's self-aware and well aware of the dangers she's headed into, and is being very honest with herself and with others around her. I think she'll be ok in the long run. Her husband is really supportive and not weight-obsessed - he keeps reminding her that he loved her and asked her to marry him when she was 60 pounds heavier - so that helps.

    C and S are definitely too skinny due to drug-induced anorexia (and drug-induced poverty). It's painful to see.
     
  16. Elsi

    Elsi Active Member

    Just to clarify - the Walhs protocol is not vegan. I can see why my focus on the veggie part may have made is sound like that. It focuses a lot on the veggies, but then you fill in the rest with high-quality protein. So if you want to throw a lovely grass-fed steak beside your 3 cups of veggies for dinner, or a pork chop, that's perfectly fine and encouraged. (She will tell you grass fed rather than grain fed.) The point is to get the leafy, colorful, and sulfuric veggies and fruits in, and keep out potential autoimmune triggers like dairy proteins and certain plant proteins like gluten. I just thought I would throw it out as an alternative for anyone struggling with autoimmune issues, or anyone who doesn't do well on a straight keto plan. We are all different!
     
  17. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    Hi Nomad. How are you doing with losing weight? Is this working for you? Do you go to the meetings? Did you send the money? How much?
     
  18. ahhjeez

    ahhjeez Member

    I lost about 40lbs doing keto. I couldn't maintain the 20 gram carb intake. It made me feel incredibly nauseous most of the time so I did increase my carbs a bit. I've found that the only way I've ever been able to really get a handle on my weight is to watch my carbs. I have fallen away a bit and need to get myself on board again. I find if I hit the right balance between carbs/fats/protein I'm not that ravenously hungry. My downfall is snacking at night in front of the tv. I found that when I was doing keto my psoriasis tended to look better. When I came off I went into a horrendous flare. I don't know if it's linked, but anecdotally it seemed to be.
     
  19. Elsi

    Elsi Active Member

    From my research and experience, yes, absolutely linked! Sugars and simple carbs are inflammatory, and psoriasis is fundamentally an inflammatory condition. This is also an autoimmune issue. And is probably a visible signal of overall inflammation in the body.
     
  20. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    WW worked really well for me once but I got into a bad car accident and the hospital made me eat too much and even had a feeding tube in me and I couldnt excerise either so I gained a lot back. Now they changed WW from points to 200 zero value foods.

    I tried it. I didnt like it. And it didnt work for me.

    Im going to stay with keto plus low carb veggies. But not three cups!! I dont like veggies that much lol. I use them for the fiber affect.

    Its interesting that our bodies work differently. I am going to eat o ly during the hours of 9 to 5 and see how that works out and going to increase my fish intake. We shall see.