difficult child upped the ante ~ police and ambulance were here

[Kathy813]

Patriot's Girl ~ I'll PM you. I'm not far from you.

klmno ~ manipulative or not . . . I came home to find my difficult child in a potentially life-threatening situation. Was really I supposed to close the garage door and leave her there with the car running and go to an Al-Anon meeting to help me detach? What would you have done differently?

I do understand the need to detach and I know I have to work on it. It's not easy, though, and I am here for support to help me do it.

 

[Nancy]

I'm sorry klmno I did not mean to insinuate you have not lived through chaos. I know you have. I really meant to say none of us can imagine what anyone else is going through in their own chaos. You are somewhat judgemental in some of your remarks and insinuated Kathy didn't want it to stop and wanted to continue the cycle and I just think that's unfair. Also al-anon is not going to give her answers which you said it would.

Nancy

P.S. Can I come to Georgia?

 

[klmno]

Was really I supposed to close the garage door and leave her there with the car running and go to an Al-Anon meeting to help me detach?

OK, to suggest that I am saying that is absurd.

I apologize if I sounded judgemental. I think Kathy (not that this isn't Kathy's thread) is too caught up in the whole mess right now to see how much she's being sucked into.

If any of you think Alanon is stupid, how on earth can you expect your kids to go to AA meetings when it stems from the same program and how on earth can you make it a requirement for your difficult child to go to these meetings but you aren't willing to do it? AA isn't going to cure your difficult child and Alanon isn't going to give anyione all the answers- but they can help. If you refuse to believe that or can't tolerate it yourself, then don't expect your difficult child to believe it or tolerate it. Enabling is a very deep and complex trait- this board can only do so much.

 

[PatriotsGirl]

Patriot's Girl ~ I'll PM you. I'm not far from you.

I just realized my town is listed - I would love to get together and talk - anytime!!

 

[Nancy]

AA is very much different than al-anon, very much. I assume you have been to AA meetings and know this. At the AA meetings they talk about their addiction and what it has done to their lives and their families. If al-anon meetings were run like AA meetings I would love it. Like I say I am not here to knock al-anon but you are making some assumptions here that are unfair. None of us said al-anon was stupid.

Nancy

 

[klmno]

OK-
I can't begin to tell you what it does to a person for a family to act like only 'that person' has a problem and the rest are just there to 'support' the person's recovery by throwing out their own requirements.
I'm just trying to help by offering a perspective that might not be what a person wants to hear but since that isn't welcome, I will bow out of the conversation.

 

[donna723]

Kathy, I might just be the ol' cynic in the group but to me it sounds like she's just stepped up her manipulations and threats a notch! And she just became this "desperate" when she found out that she would have to participate in the program with curfews, drugs tests and meetings instead of sneaking under the radar as a "renter"?

I say all this as a parent who has two grown children who both have made very serious suicide attempts in the past. Both spent time in the hospital, one on life support for four days before he regained consciousness. Neither one told anyone of their intentions, neither one made any threats or tried any manipulations, they just DID IT! They did it when they were alone and with every intention that they would not be found until it was too late ... because they meant it. It is only by the grace of God, some guardian angels working overtime, and some very fortuitious circumstances that either are here today and are happy and healthy and functioning. They did not tell ME, they weren't bargaining, and they certainly did not give advance warning and then stage it right in my own garage, knowing I would be home in a few minutes.

Apparently she is still not serious about straightening her life out - she really hasn't hit bottom yet where she has to rely entirely on herself. I really don't know what the answer is but I am so very sorry that you and your husband are having to go through this. My heart just breaks for you. Sending lots and lots of hugs.

 

[Signorina]

KLMNO, you suggested it - you meant well. It's not for her. She tried it. Maybe she will try it again. Maybe she will try counseling.

She turned off her phone during the day. She went HOME to HER HOUSE AFTER WORK. She CLAIMED HER HOME AS HER OWN; she called the police, she MADE her difficult child leave, she's changing the garage code, and she has repeatedly told her difficult child that COMING HOME IS NOT AN OPTION despite the heavy pressure she has gotten otherwise from her daughter and the judgmental officer on the scene.

For crying out loud - she didn't bring her into the house, give her a warm bath, scotch and cookies and put her to bed.

Shes isn't being sucked into it as much as it is literally on her doorstep.

Short of moving away - I don't know what more she could do. And moving away certainly is putting her difficult child in control.

I applaud her detachment thus far.

I don't know if I could do it. And if I could muster the courage, I would be a basket case afterwards. I certainly wouldn't have the composure to reach out here and look into counseling and ask for helpful suggestions.

 

[Kathy813]

P.S. Can I come to Georgia?

The guestroom is ready when you are.

 

[slsh]

You can call the police and you can have her arrested and you can turn off you phone and you can put locks on your door, but a mom is a mom and your heart is torn apart.

Nancy - I could not agree with you more. I don't know - I guess I kind of assume that maternal heartache is inevitable as some of our kids struggle to find their way. We're either worried sick because we know what they're doing or because we don't know what they're doing. There isn't an easy answer and, in my experience anyway, there was nothing that could have prevented or soothed my heartache. I certainly did not mean to diminish at all what a lousy situation Kathy is in, or discount her sorrow.

I guess, as with deciding if/when Residential Treatment Center (RTC) placement is necessary for our younger kids, the same thing applies to when to withdraw from our adult difficult child's chaos. We all have different tolerances. Mine was shot long before thank you hit 18. Doesn't mean I was sitting here content by any stretch of the imagination - I think I cried daily for 9 months over him. But... I simply couldn't ride his roller-coaster anymore. Maybe I'm weak or selfish - I look at what you and Kathy and some other PE parents do, over and over and over again, and I admire your willingness to keep coming back for more. I really do.

Detachment is a process, Kathy, or maybe an evolution because it keeps on changing, and I think it's probably different for all of us, but I don't think it will ever make us immune to our feelings about the situations our kids can get themselves into.

At the end of the day, we have to do what we're able to keep on doing.

 

[Nancy]

Donna I just told Kathy the same thing, her difficult child is desperate and desperate people do desperate things. I understand that desperation, I've been there, but the difference between us is that I can control my desperation and she can't. That's what makes a difficult child a difficult child. We can feel desperate and deal with it in a rational way.

slsh what you said really hit a nerve. I do believe that some maternal heartache in inevitable and there just isn't any way around it. We can try to minimze it but it is what it is and we just have to get through it any way we can. It's a grieving process.

Kathy I don't know how you are getting to work everyday with all this going on. I applaud your resilience. It's easier for me to detach with difficult child out of the house and sober. When she was living here or even when she wasn't but was actively drinking, no matter how hard I tried I still carried heartache. I still do now but it's much easier when I am not worried that she will appear on my doorstep every minute or that she will be sending me crazy texts all day. Detachment is much overrated.

Nancy

 

[buddy]

The EMT's explained to me that the law changed about 6 years ago and that they can't force a person to go to the hospital over a threat. Since it was her word against mine, they couldn't force her to go if her vitals were good and she refused to go.

They were very apologetic and very understanding. I could tell that they really wanted her to go. They kept talking amongst themselves and kept trying different tests but said there was nothing they could do.

Sorry it went down like that. You did the best anyone could do. Thinking of you....Buddy

 

[Fran]

My personal feeling is that I do not want to ever walk away from a situation with my child and they follow through with a suicide or even an attempt. I don't believe I could forgive myself regardless of whether it was my fault or not.
How do you know what is normal difficult child drama and what isn't?
Kathy has undergone extensive emotional blackmail and torture with her difficult child. How to disentangle when difficult child keeps pulling her back in with things like today. Her veiled threat that there is a guy who will come in and rob them?!!!!!!!! How does one live with that sort of mental torture and constant chronic threats. How long does a parent keep trying to help difficult child find their way. I don't think anyone ever completely quits on their child even if they stay disengaged. You always are watching and waiting for an opportunity for your difficult child to do the right thing.
Kathy, I don't have any experience with the legal system so this may be naive but maybe let her get arrested? She seems to have a strong sense of entitlement in addition to her immaturity,drama then add addiction on top; it's a time bomb.
I know what you mean about wanting someone to hash things through. Sort of a life coach for dealing with a difficult child. It would have to be someone who actually knows and understands the mind of a difficult child.
I know you must be angry at her forcing her issues by the suicide attempt but it must have scared the **** out of you.

 

[elizabrary]

Kathy- first I am very sorry you went through this. It sounds awful. I haven't read all the posts on this thread, but here is the small amount of wisdom I have to offer. You cannot control your daughter or the situation. What you control is you and your reactions. When I had the realization, when I really got that, it helped me tremendously. It's a hard concept, although it sounds very simple. I think counseling for you and your husband would be a great idea. You need an objective person to offer support and coping skills. When my daughter gets insane I have to cut myself off from her- literally. I do not take phone calls, texts, FB messages, nothing. She knows when I tell her she cannot be at my house I will call the police and follow through on having her arrested. This has been the best course of action for my health and sanity. I think it helps her too, because she seems to pull herself together when she really has no back up from me. Is is hard? It's tremendously hard. Does she push me? Of course, she calls at work and I hang up, she creates drama, etc. I do not respond. I focus on me and doing what I need to do for myself. I would contact the police and file a report concerning the robbery she threatened, as well as notifying the residential setting she is in. I'm sorry but I can't remember what all financial support you provide her, but I would pull it all- paying for treatment, car, phone, whatever. It's time she found out that her actions have consequences, even when they are actions against her parent. When my daughter starts treating me questionably I try to stand back and ask if I would allow any other person to do what she is doing. Usually the answer is no, so that means boundaries have been crossed and I need to put a stop to it. Again, I'm terribly sorry you are going through this. Be easy on yourself. I'm sending positive thoughts your way.

 

[toughlovin]

Kathy - What an awful thing your difficult child did to you... extremely manipulative and desperate to get her way. I totally understand where you are coming from.... there is nothing scarier than worrying about your child dying, either by suicide or by some other means. It is an awful awful feeling.... and man our difficult children know how to really pull at our heartstrings and will do what they can to do this to us to get what they want.

I am surprised that the EMTs could not have taken her to the hospital... must be because her vital signs were normal but really how could they know that you would not have been 20 minutes later?

I do think seeing a therapist will be really helpful. I went to a therapist for quite a while and my husband came for some sessions to... and I was seeing her for exactly the reasons you want... to learn to let go and figure out how to handle things. I needed to do that and I found a good therapist and it really helped a lot.

Yet I also understand what kimno is saying. I think what has ended up helping me more than anything is the wonderful parent alanon group I have found. I wish all of you lived near me so I could bring you to this group. I understand the frustration some of you have expressed with alanon because it is true it is not really the place to go and discuss specifics about your difficult child and get advice... that happens after the meetings...the focus is really on you and how to take care of you.

So why have I found it helpful? In a way it feels almost magic because I don't know exactly. I guess the first thing is it helped me realize that I really am not alone. I also feel that here on this forum but it is nice to have live people who are going through what I am going through... who really understand and related to what i have experienced with my difficult child. Seeing people in real life who i like, who seem like good people, good parents really helped me not feel alone and really helped me realize that my difficult children drug addiction is not my fault. I really didn't cause it, cant control it and can't cure it. Somehow the year I have been going to alanon has gotten me to a different place.

Not that I don't still worry, or get anxious because i definitely do... but I am most of the time at more peace than i was before. No I would not be detached or feel ok with the situation you just went through, but I think I would get through it more easily than I did before.

I dont think without going to alanon that I could have gone to Europe this summer, leaving my difficult child here on his own to find himself homeless and to really hit bottom. I needed to let him do that for him to really seek help which he finally did.... and it was him getting to the point of being suicidal that he called me and wanted to check himself into a psychiatric unit. I had to get to the point where I realized it is really up to him. I can't help him if he wont help himself.

Your daughter is manipulating you in the extreme, or at least she is trying her best. You are doing a great job of not letting her con you, or blackmail you into letting her come home. I hope you keep having the strength to keep doing that... and that is where i think Alanon can help, in supporting you to find peace in your decisions. You are doing the right thing.

So I think therapy is a great idea, and I also think alanon is a very good thing. I don't think it replaces therapy because yes you do need to talk about your difficult child, your own reactions, what this is doing to you AND ideas about how you should handle it. We do need to have those conversations. At the alanon meeting I go to, people do talk about their kids.... older members try to keep the focus on ourselves, and that is important. It is also a place to meet others and feel some community with others who really understand and who you can talk about the details about your kids, just not so much during the meeting.

Wish you all lived near me so we could go together.

TL

 

[Hound dog]

kathy I've not read the other responses.........so if I say something someone else has already said.....I'm sorry.

I'm not sure if you've considered this or not:

difficult child is ticked that she suddenly has to follow rules ect at halfway house. You don't answer her text or phone calls. When you do and she tells you she's home (which of course means she intends to wear you down into letting her stay there again) in the drive, and you tell her if she doesn't leave you're calling the police........... I don't see what happened next as desperation. I see it as blatant manipulation, or an attempt to manipulate.

Why? She knew you were on your way home, probably knows how long it takes for you to get there. She gets herself into the car.....waits a bit, turns the engine on about the time you're due to show up. She knows you're coming. She knows you'll find her long before the fumes even make her pass out. But you'll be terrified that she was sooooo desperate she tried to kill herself, and you'd let her come back to stay for "one more chance".

Now I can't know that is what happened. But that whole scene jumped out at me as I read your post. Bff pulled this **** more than once on her family......and they bought it every darn time.

I was soooo relieved that you stood your ground and didn't let her little scene pay off. I know you can't 2nd guess a possible suicide attempt......because even a staged one can turn deadly, but I'm so glad you didn't let her use it to manipulate you.

Now, I'd go get all the locks changed and make sure the house is secure. Next time, send her to jail. I'd have sent her this time, but that's me.

(((hugs)))

 

[Kathy813]

husband went to WalMart and bought new deadbolt locks for all of our doors and is installing them as we speak. We found out that she got in through the basement door. It still had the old locks from years ago but husband had pushed a heavy desk against the doors (french doors) and thought that she couldn't get in even if she had a key. However, when he went down to replace the locks, he found the desk had been pushed farther away from the door than it used to be.

Luckily, we had long removed anything of value when difficult child was living here and never brought anything back into the house. I've looked around and don't see anything missing except my winter coat. She always did like my coat.

Lisa, husband has the same theory about the suicide attempt that you have. He thinks she turned on the car when she saw me coming. We have blocked her calls and texts to our cell phones.

 

[Star*]

Kathy,

Hi and huge hugs. This has certainly been a terribly emotional week for you, and I'm always sorry to hear when any one of our kids have gotten to this point. Whether the gesture was intentional with attention seeking behaviors or something that arouse out of desperation and depression, no one can say for sure. What we can say for certain is that no parent here could look another in the eye in the same given situation and not rush to save their child. Without a doubt we're hard-wired to save life.

I really wish I did not have so much experience with suicide, suicide attempts and actual deaths resulting from suicides in my life. Sadly, no matter how many times there is an attempt or a threat? Each one IS different. Suicides should always be taken in a serious manner. If they are not? Each time there is a threat? The person who threatens gets the idea that it could be a game, or that they have to up the ante (so to speak) and it's that kind of 'Russian roulette' that can often times end in a true unmeaning tragedy while someone was just trying to prove a point, never meaning to completely go through with the actual act. However to continually sit and beg someone or not know how to handle someone who is manipulating others can be just as dangerous. What you did? Calling 911 and showing your daughter that IF she attempts to take her life - authorities will be called - was the ABSOLUTE correct thing. I'm not sure if where you live you can ask the police to 'file' a written police report to keep on file about the incident (you may have to go to the police station and hand write one up yourself) but it would be a good idea to keep on file should this occur again AND you possibly need to ask a family court judge to "baker act" her.

The report from this incident would be on file and could show a judge that she did try to harm herself. Should she try to attempt suicide again? This incident would serve as a paper-trail in deciding to help a judge lock her up and get medical treatment for 72 hours in the future. (maybe)

As far as any other advice? Well I'm sure others have suggested the obvious -
Get the locks and key codes changed
Get security lights and cameras or something like ADT security installed
Make sure the locks on your windows cant be opened by sliding a credit card through the window - perhpas window lock -locks.
Make sure dog doors can't be accessed
Alert neighbors that no one is to be home and give your cell phone number if they see suspicious or unusual cars in your driveway to call you any time
Install security lights and motion lights
Get locking gas caps
Timer lights for the inside of the house - change often

Last but by NO means least ------you and husband find a good therapist and get some relief to know that YOU ARE NOT NUTS. I mean - Df and I went for years because of Dude and it was a life saver. Who else in this whole world is going to be able to listen to the madness that is OUR lives and either not crack up or walk away (okay run) screaming - but really give you some ideas on how to level the playing field and cope with this insanity? No shame in knowing how to at least hold your own. And as far as you? Go on your own once a week and just have a BLOW IT OUT YOUR MOM-sense hour ------it's SOOOOOO freeing. It's like - men internalize things----and go hunt, or play handball or tennis or whatever.......Women ------WE talk. And when we can't talk about crazyworld? We blow up. So when you talk to a therapist - ESPECIALLY one that has great things to have you work on yourself each week? OMG it's wonderful. I'd leave and feel so great - I'd get Dunkin doughnuts coffee -------and feel like a new woman.

With regards to the AA Alanon thing? Well ----I'll say this and butt out. I've been to them all. AA, CA, NA, Alanon, and I actually got MORE out of the NA and CA meetings than I did any of the Alanon meetings. Why? The Alanon meetings for me personally were a lot of other people who were so miserable and upset about their loved ones or their lost loved ones and it was basically a support/B group. B being the Witch kind of B. Granted this was like 20 some years ago because x was so bad into any and all kinds of drugs and alcohol. So I started going to NA and CA (narcotics and cocaine anonymous) and the people in there were recovering addicts who told it to others (me) like it was from a drug addicts point of view. What bugged them about straight people when they were high, what didn't, what helped, what didn't.......what they wished someone had done....stuff like that. What TO do, not TO do. It was awful, and great.....and some of the stories I heard about childhood on up ------amazing, sad....but I never heard one poor me song. It was all - I need this - I want this - sobriety. So I found it more of an uplifting time than Alanon.

Just my 04 cents worth......and not that you need to go to any of them.......or that any of them would be good or bad or whatever.......it's just what worked for me. Hitting my knees at night seemed ultimately to work the best in the end more than anything. Sure you're doing plenty of that.

When it's all said and done? You're going to do what YOU feel is the right move for your kid -----based on your experiences, your history, and your heart. Sometimes you're going to be right, sometimes you're going to be wrong, and sometimes you're going to just get lucky - and the kid works it out for themselves and leaves you out of it. That's parenting.....

Hugs & Love
Star

 

[donna723]

Kathy, I agree with Lisa 100%. That's exactly the way it struck me too. It's just too blatant, too obvious. She knew you were on your way home and probably started her car up when she heard you pull in the driveway. And I think if it was me, I would have had her arrested too, in the hope that maybe that would finally get through to her. That's strange about the coat though. Did you just now notice that it was missing? She may have been letting herself in to your house all along, whenever she felt like it! Any chance you could have the director of the sober house search her room and see if your coat is there?

 

[Star*]

........I would probably bet she started her car up the minute she heard you too. This also crossed MY mind, but she is still a difficult child......and thinks like a difficult child. I'm not so sure jail wouldn't do her some good, but then again would it delay the sober house? Perhaps that's a choice that could be presented to her - a.) Get your hiney in the sober house by Friday and stay the program the full XX months or b.) Drop out of the sober house and we'll see to it that we Get your hiney in the pokey -

Of course - she could probably do the time in the sober house under duress, come out and go right back to being herself......because the choice to go to the sober house really was NOT hers........but then again - maybe once she gets in there? She'll be a model citizen. Hard to say.