I am sad and desperate and hopeless again

Discussion in 'Parent Emeritus' started by Copabanana, Jan 9, 2019.

  1. KTMom91

    KTMom91 Well-Known Member

    I'm sorry that J chose not to follow through on the things he'd agreed to. I hope he listens and doesn't show up at either house, which forces your hand. Hugs.
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  2. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    I think you're on the right track, tired. That it's anxiety and avoidance and poor judgement.

    I just spoke to m. He suggested I pay out of pocket for a neuropsychologist exam (Gosh I think it would be $5000 or more.)..and tell my son that if he accepts necessary treatment, we will do anything to support him.

    M is beginning to accept this is an incapacity issue.

    I am heartbroken.

    Why did I say I'd call the cops? I do not want him here. I get triggered by him. I have PTSD.
  3. CareTooMuch

    CareTooMuch Active Member

    I so wish I could be with you to be support, even just a cup of coffee and a hug. Sounds like you got yourself quickly to the place of not here no matter what pretty quickly because of his actions. That's actually better for you. You know what CAN'T happen. Now you can work from that place. Damm life sometimes throws some hard balls
  4. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    Thank you with all my heart caretoomuch.

    I bent so far for him, denying the effects on me, I ended up traumatized where I seem unable to handle him at all.

    I am heartbroken. I blame myself. If I had coped better, been less reactive I could have supported him better.

    What if all these years he could not do it? And now all I want to do is threaten him with the cops. And I'm all he has.

    I got so hysterical texting, he's not writing. 100 texts. I wish I could get them back.
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019
  5. Crayola13

    Crayola13 Active Member

    I wish he could see that the Marijuana isn't helping him anymore. I have often wondered if he got used to going without it, would some of his problems improve. Pot has a way of making people complacent, and I think that is what is preventing him from applying for housing assistance. His brain is addicted and thinks it cannot stop. He truly believes he must have the pot or his whole world will fall apart. The thing is, even though he has pot, his world is still falling apart. You have done all you can do. I'm not saying he cannot be saved, but it's up to him. I don't know if some of this comes from his biological parents. I don't think he's past the point of no return, but you've tried your hardest. He has to come to the realization that pot isn't helping. He's so addicted that he cannot see that. When he sees someone on the street using heroin, he thinks his drug problem is small compared to theirs. There is always someone with a worse addiction. He doesn't even know he's addicted because we keep hearing that pot isn't addictive. We all know it's very addictive.
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  6. ForeverSpring

    ForeverSpring Well-Known Member

    Its not your fault. He has seen many doctors and none have told you why he wont or cant function well. Im partial in his case to "cant." He has had so much trauma to his body and mind. Like Sonic did. But Sonic got help from infancy! Our foster care system, bad as it is, recognized that to be his best, Sonic needed to start interventions for his prenatal drug exposure right away.

    It is not your fault that your sons social workers did not do likewise for your son. Sounds as if you were lead to believe he would have no issues from this prenatal drug exposure. Honestly, these often baby social workers need to become better educated and tell us the truth and i itiate services very young.

    Most of the children of parents in my adoption group were drug exposed in utero. None of them had NO issues because of the exposure. J may not actually understandhow serious Hep. B is. He doesnt seem to get it. This can all be part of brain differences due to what has happened to him. Not saying it is for sure but he is not suicodal. Not really. Yet je wont do the normal smart thing and care for hos liver.

    Sometimes the prenatal drug exposure issues do not really show up much until adulthood when they have to try to take care of themselves without parents. I think pot for J is part of his own solution. And to be fair many people smoke pot, work, function etc. I dont like pot but I dont personally believe pot is all of this or even most of it.

    If J is not able to plan his life and do things on his own due to prenatal drug exposure and TBIs, there are people who will look out for him, offer him opportunity and be there for him. To me the issues are a legal disability diagnosed and his willingness to accept Section.8, Medicare and Medicaid, foodstamps and case management.

    When you require community help, you get it, but it doesnt cime with a mansion, tons of money and a comfy upper middle class lifestyle. He can work. He will still get a certain amount of SSI. And he can get help with job placement.

    But this is dependent on him and his willingness to humble himself and get tested and accept the help he needs. You cant support somebody who wont admit he needs help. Or who is ashamed of getting help. That is totally on him.

    Other than that you still have the choice of bringing him home and having no expectations. This is your own choice, not ours, not Ms. What will help you sleep at night even if it isnt perfect. There is no perfect solution here. There is only what YOU need.

    Love and hugs.
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019
  7. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    Swot. He was just thrown away as an infant. Before I found him he received no help that I am aware of. I got him services right away. He went to behavioral nursery school. He went to speech therapy. He went to therapy. I did what I knew to do.

    I was writing my dissertation. I had no help.i am overwhelmed with heartache.

    The problem is he wants to be in charge Thus far he has not humbled himself one bit. All my help has done is traumatized me and empowered him to smoke marijuana and do nothing to help himself .

    He will say he wants to go along with the program and not do one thing.

    He did respond to my 100 texts at 1:14 am. He writes something like mom? And then, Goodnight and good bye.

    How very cruel.

    I am finally getting that this is what I'm dealing with. But he can get help. But I can't so far make him get help.

    The decision I finally see. It is to accept that he live exactly as he wants, in the other house. Which is not possible with m there. Or to permit him to come here with me and live as he wants.

    Or to let him be out there and fall further and further until he is out of reach. And I don't know what that would be for him or for me.

    I am heartbroken .

    I had a panic attack that he would come here I was so afraid. I slept with the radio. That is the problem now. Since 5 months ago I am getting serious PTSD symptoms. It's not that I care about myself. I don't. It's that I am afraid I'll do something horrible dissociated and terrified.

    I want to run away. There is nowhere to run.
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019
  8. ForeverSpring

    ForeverSpring Well-Known Member

    Of course you are scared. Who wouldnt be? And you did e erything for J that was done for my son so you did ALL anyone could have.

    My mom was big on cliques and they are in my head. "You can lead a horse to water but you cant make him drink."

    You are still helping him by telling him his options. That is all you can do because you cant make him utilize them. I would also be a wreck!

    Have you spoken to your wise Rabbi friend lately? She seems very kind and smart and may help you come to one decision. It is so easy for us to help others, but not as easy to help ourselves. Thats where a trusted third party with no skin in the game can help us.

    If you miss M, he is an i.portant issue too. I dont think we should give up our partners for adult kids. We need love, companionship and comfort too. You need what we all need. Is M perfect? Nobody is. Do you love him and feel comfort with him? Only you can answer if it is worth losing him since J is no more cooperative with M not there.

    Sit. Relax. Take times to just be chill and not think about it at all. You dont have to do anything today or tomorrow. This has been ongoing. A few days wont whange anyrhing.

    Love, hugs and delicuous, aromic hot coffee!
  9. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    I'm afraid for my son. Where is he?

    He forced my hand, by saying he was coming back, on his terms. Which is always how it has been. He shows up. In need. And defines or imposes the terms.

    It's all or nothing. My way or the highway. His terms.

    Yes. He pays lip service. But that's all it is. It's my fault I demanded too much. What he could not, would not do. It's clear. Now.

    The rabbi is gone for 12 weeks!

    I need to calm myself.

    He did respond.

    He was rejecting and mean but he responded. I need to try to regain my center.

    Thank you swot. You are a friend.
  10. Lil

    Lil Well-Known Member

    Copa, just popped on at work and found all that's gone on. Oh hun, first, I'm so sorry...this all went on.

    Read that. You got him services. You got him therapy. YOU DID WHAT YOU KNEW TO DO.

    His problems are NOT your fault. Your son is a GROWN MAN and he is NOT incapable of taking care of himself, at least the basics! He knows how to find shelter and food. He's not a drooling mess who will just let himself freeze to death! If he neglects his liver - he KNOWS what that means Copa! As hard as it is for you - it is HIS choice as much as it was my child's choice to steal and smoke pot.

    Now...read that. Again - YOU DID WHAT YOU KNEW TO DO! It's perfectly reasonable to expect grown men in your life to meet certain expectations. What have you asked for? Doctors mostly. For him to get some help...and I'm SURE you have offered to assist!

    Third: Copa, I am going to be blunt and I hope beyond hope that I don't hurt your feelings. I say this with love and with your best interests at heart. If YOU are not in therapy...you said you didn't like the therapist you were going to meet J with...you need to be to get your own head on straight on these issues. Yesterday you were "I think he should move back. I can't be happy if he's not here and getting help" or words to that effect. Then he calls and you are absolutely panicked to the point of threatening police and saying that you aren't safe if he is there. Honey...it can't be both ways. You need to find a line and stick with it. He can't manipulate you half as much if you aren't being wishy-washy about things and you're playing a large part in breaking your own heart.

    It's not fair. Not even to him and certainly not to you!

    It's time to stop beating yourself up for things you did or didn't do. It's time to find a way to live with life as it is now. You deserve some peace of mind.
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  11. Lil

    Lil Well-Known Member


    I reread my post and it seems harsher than I intended....but I'm very worried about YOU. I know you are having great difficulty finding some middle ground with J and how to respond...to the point you really aren't finding a middle ground at all. You seem to go from one extreme to another where he's concerned and it has to be tearing you apart.

    You're in my prayers hun. I hope you know that.
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  12. Elsi

    Elsi Active Member

    Oh, Copa, I am so sorry you are going through this. Sending love, hugs and support.

    It sounds like you are clear now that he cannot come home to stay with you, or even to visit you. It is too triggering. You are not ready - you may never be ready. And it may not even be what's best for J.

    I agree with SWOT that it is not right for you to give up M, if you are doing it for J. If things aren't working between you and M for other reasons, that's a different story - but I am not clear that this is the case? It sounds like the primary problem between you and M is J, and disagreement in how you plan to help him and what role you will have in his life. But it sounds like M is open to supporting you in doing what you feel you must do to help J.

    Without everything with J in the picture - do you want M back with you? Imagine there are no issues with J - in this fantasy, he has reached a place where he is independent, safe, and does not need you. Worrying about him is not a consideration. What does your heart tell you about M's role in your life under those circumstances? Do you want him with you? Or would you truly rather be alone? Whatever your heart tells you in this case, I think is what you truly need. You cannot let J, or your worry about J, break your relationship. You deserve joy, peace, support, love. Are you perhaps pushing M out because you feel on some level you don't deserve these things? Are you punishing yourself - and perhaps M too - for mistakes you feel you have made in the past? Please don't do that to yourself. Listen to your heart. Know that YOU count, too.

    With J, it seems to me you are in the same place you have always been. You offer options (helping him get to doctor, helping him apply for housing support, etc.). He rejects your offers. He wants to come home with no strings attached. You cannot accept that (nor do I think you should).

    When you are calmer, and things have settled a bit with him, perhaps try again to see if he will meet you in a neutral place to talk this through. If not, perhaps write him a letter you can send electronically through email or messenger or however he is able to receive it. Either way, I think it will help YOU to write down and get very clear about the parameters of what you will and will no do for him. Perhaps:
    - You cannot stay in either of the houses or show up at any of our properties uninvited. (I would not put an "unless" on these, e.g. unless you stop smoking, as that just opens things up for negotiation and manipulation. Just no, this can't happen.)
    - I can meet you somewhere else (a library, perhaps, with computers?) and help you apply for housing support and other services. We can sit down and do this together.
    - I can help you make doctors appointments and I will meet you at those appointments if you want me to.
    - I can meet you at a restaurant on a regular basis and get you something to eat and talk about your plans.
    - I still love you and always will, but you are a grown man and are responsible for your life choices. I can only do so much to help you.

    And please stop beating yourself up about the past. I know this is hard, I do it too. All the time. But you DID seek services and support for him. You followed the advice of the professionals and did your best with the knowledge and resources you had at the time. However bad things seem now, he is most certainly lightyears better off than he would have been without your love and the supports you did provide for him. None of us had magic balls that let us see inside our children and know exactly what was wrong and what they needed, or allowed us to see the future and plan for it. We did our best. We are still doing our best.

    Please be gentle with yourself. Hugs.
  13. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    He texted. Apparently, he got off the train when I told him not to come and then got lost two hours. I think he's back where he started, in a place he knows.

    He says he wants help and is open to working with me and getting services.

    I suggested we meet. Which is what I have wanted to do. I could take the train to where he is for an afternoon.

    This is all by text. So I will wait until he responds. If it's too complicated to arrange the referral I will pay for the evaluation out of pocket. (Gee. He has 3 insurances. The exam would be covered. I checked.) I bet it will cost more than 5k. But he's like herding cats.

    So. I'm grateful we are in contact.

    When there are these breaks I descend into internal chaos. I know that.

    Despite my profession I have not been helped by psychotherapy. I do not trust psychiatric therapists. That is a problem.

    Thank you.
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  14. Elsi

    Elsi Active Member

    I'm so glad you're back in contact. Sounds like a positive step. I hope you're able to get him to commit to a meeting in a neutral location, and that he follows through.

    Copa, I know I've said it before, and it may not be for everyone, but CBT has helped me much more than traditional psychiatric therapy. Just giving me tools in my cognitive toolbox to go to when I am stressed, overwhelmed or not thinking clearly.

    Also, I really recommend the book "The Buddha's Brain". Nomad was reading it - maybe we can read it together! It gets into a lot of the neuroscience of happiness and stress relief, and ties it into the teachings of Buddhism. It's all about changing your brain to find inner calm and peace no matter what is happening around you, and gets into the neuroscience of why and how meditation (or prayer) work.

    I wouldn't give up on that referral if his insurance will pay - saving $5K would be worth a bit of aggravation in getting it arranged, at least for my budget!

    Deep breaths. You can do this. You've made it this far. So has he.
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  15. toughlovin

    toughlovin Well-Known Member

    Oh Copa..... Thinking about you and sending thoughts and cyber hugs! I hope he goes to the clinic and neuropsychologist!! It is hard that M moved out, that increases the lonlieness but yeah being in the middle of a triangle is very very difficult and adds lots of stress. I am not sure letting J come home would be good for you...... I would think long and hard about that and what is good for you and if it would really help.

    About the hoodie...... I know when my son has gone around wearing a hoodie... it means he is really depressed and is hiding from the world. He does look scary when he is doing it, and I think he looks scarier. To me it is a bad sign..... so when I see someone dressed like that I do not see it positively but that may be it is a trigger for me.

    Thinking about you.

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  16. RN0441

    RN0441 100% better than I was but not at 100% yet

    So I will tell you a story about my sister.

    She had 3 boys by one husband. Got divorced and had a boy by her second husband.

    The youngest was so very very smart. He was spoiled rotten when he was a boy. She was a single parent (again) and he completely manipulated her. I really did not like to be around him when he was young. Fast forward to high school. He got into a lot of fights (not sure why) but was very smart. No drug etc. issues.

    After high school he wanted to go to college in Hawaii. Huh? She actually lived with a friend so that she could afford to pay his way. He did very well in college so in many ways she felt justified for this expense. After college he moved back to Chicago and got a great job as a trader. He was doing well. She gave him a huge amount of money to manage for her. He lost it all.

    He then decided he did not want to be a trader anymore so quit. In fact, he didn't want to work at all. He was milking her for money constantly. She didn't have it. Her other 3 older boys were self sufficient and they did not go to college. They were angry.

    Then youngest decided he wanted to be a monk. A monk? WTH? He was never religious. Not even sure what a monk does. Long story short she has paid for many plane flights all over the country for him. He is now pushing 40. (She is 76). He is now back in Hawaii. Bottom line is he does not want to work or live a conventional life. Is he mentally ill? We don't know. We don't think so. He is a drifter. That is how he has chosen to live his life. She has so struggled with this.

    She and I are out of touch for several years - long story - but I know she has had to accept this is how he chooses to live. Why I told this story is sometimes we have to accept things we cannot change.
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  17. ForeverSpring

    ForeverSpring Well-Known Member

    But, RN, we dont have to pay a dime.

    Insane story about your sister and the son
  18. Lil

    Lil Well-Known Member

    Oh my...well...I have no other ideas. All the counselors we've ever been to helped us come to terms with our sons behavior. They were usually psychologist or licensed counselors or social workers, not psychiatrists. I don't know what to say or who to suggest you see if that is a problem. :(

    I forgot the hoodie.

    Copa, this is my take on the hoodie since I got to thinking about it. - He SAYS he wears to hoodie - hood up of course - because of his hair. I don't believe that's true. I think he wears it to upset/scare/put-off people.

    My son lives in hoodies too - but he wears his stupid beanie and does NOT put the hood up. Think about it. If you live in the USA you KNOW the connotations that a hoodie, with the hood up, has when worn by a young man. You know that people assume druggie or gang or thief or just thug. Appropriate or not, that's what people think. There have been more than one news story about young men wearing hoodies and the reaction of people to those men. Race has been thrown up in most stories, but it really has little to do with it. Any young man, hood up, unless it's raining or snowing, that's where people's minds go. Heck, a man with the hood up has been a "threatening" thing since the Unabomber.

    I guarantee, all young men know this.

    It's easy to put on a beanie or a scarf or a ball cap to hide your thinning hair. If you insist on a hoodie, you know it will keep people at arms length. For some reason, he wants it that way.

    I could be completely off base, but if I'm right, he'll quit wearing the hoodie when he is ready to seem approachable and not before.

    I hope, with all my heart, that your meeting goes well.
  19. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    Rn. That's a sad story about your sister. And nephew. I have to say I was scared as I read it. .He has said that the hoody protects him from being seen. So you're right. It's hiding out.

    He says he'll go to the university clinic today. I offered to travel to meet him today, he said he'd go to try to get the referral instead. I doubt he will go.

    I think I will try to take the train to meet him tomorrow, if he agrees.

    Thank you.
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019
  20. Baggy Bags

    Baggy Bags Active Member

    I hope he goes, and I hope he's being real about wanting to cooperate for his health. ((()))
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