I am sad and desperate and hopeless again

Discussion in 'Parent Emeritus' started by Copabanana, Jan 9, 2019.

  1. Baggy Bags

    Baggy Bags Active Member

    My heart is breaking for you, Copa. I don't know what's worse - the not showing up or the begging you to come back.
    I'm thinking the same thing Swot said from the moment I read that M was in the other house.
    I don't like to imagine you more alone than you have to be right now.
    Sending hugs and light and strength. So much strength.
  2. ForeverSpring

    ForeverSpring Well-Known Member

    Sadly I figured his excuse would be to evade the truth and blame external forces. They can never say "Mom, I am so sorry. I screwed up. Me. Not you. I started too late. I was sort of afraid to do this. Its on me and I will try to be a better man. This is my vow."

    Of course only actions matter, not words, even apologies. But wouldnt it be nice to hear accountability?

    Do what you feel is best. Nobody can be in your shoes. Try to enjoy the day.

    Knitting sounds very relaxing!

    Big hugs!
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  3. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    Swot. Thank you.

    He did say he was sorry. And felt horrible. And blamed himself.

    The problem is falling on his sword does nothing. For him or me.

    I will have to wait and see what's next.

    The decision I have is this: do I keep holding to the neuropsychogist exam, knowing he will most likely not meet this hurdle, and/or make me sick in the process, or let him back to 20th. No conditions.

    Because in reality, how do I make him go to therapy? If he won't or can't even make one aappointment with me.. That was set up at his convenience. Him: 20 minutes, one stop
    Me: 140 minutes. 6 stops.

    It goes back to the tension between enabling vs no expectations at all.
  4. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    I am thinking to just let him come back.


    Because if he can't make it to the train station how in the world can he make it to get a referral to the neuropsychologist. When he doesn't want to. And he is so disorganized and anxious.

    The liver doctor appointment is not until April 24.

    I spoke with m. He is in agreement that j go back to 20th. He thinks if I have any control at all it is with J close.

    What he does not want is that j isolate and use marijuana. How do I control that? I can't. But if j has to share a space with other functional people...

    I texted my son I could meet him tomorrow in a town close to me. Or I was willing to try a repeat of yesterday later in the week under different terms.

    The journey goes on....
  5. ForeverSpring

    ForeverSpring Well-Known Member

    I think he has challenges like I did/do, that are/were masked by his verbal expertise and foreign language abilities. Until he is tested nobody knows what he truly can and cant do even if he tries hard or gets help. He doesnt seem to accept that he could need help yet and you cant make him. But you can demand to sit in and you can hear the results of the testing. This can be a lone expectation. What you learn may help you a lot even if only inside of you.

    I am a bit worried about.M and the pot. J will smoke pot. Period. M cant stop it nor can you and if he is on 20th he will still smoke it. If it were me I would drop the pot as an issue. Its unwinnable, he has a medical card for it and its legal in your state. This has to be one of those no expectation issues or it wont work. M has to go along with it or you two will fight and its not in my opinion worth it. J is certainly in a better environment near you than in the streets, pot or not.

    J may be doing the best he can. His memory could be impaired by the in utero drug abuse plus TBIs. Thats a lot of very real trauma applied to the brain. He may always need some help but he wont ever get it on the streets and will probably not want any right away with you either.

    He needs to feel worthwhile and valuable even if he is
    differently abled in some ways that hamper his functioning. Its hard. We dont want to feel like we cant do what everyone else does easily.

    I had to come to peace with these little invisible disabilities in spite of having some very bright, high achievers in my family of origin and in spite of also being shunned for being different (different seen in FOO as I am deliberately acting bad).

    This is the year I am finally wiping that off my brain. Although I dont expect YOU to believe in this or do it, I have an amazing psychic medium with amazing gifts and we had an appointment yesterday (stop laughing everyone!) I believe I spoke to my closest loved one who has passed on (I know, I know :)) but it helped push me even more towards acceptance. I waswtold to let go ofothe things thattI still hung onto. That it isnt my fault. Never was. It is not J's fault either, even if you dont believe in the afterlife. Seriously. It is not. Nor tour fault.

    I am 65. J is 30. It takes time. Time to accept hard things about ourselves. Eventually we realize though that we are still valuable and worthwhile!

    There is a lot of help and empowerment for anyone with invisible disabilities these days. Assuming he tests as deficient in some areas of function. It doesnt mean his life can not be great. My life is GREAT! Truly it is. J can have agreat life.....wife, kids, love. I didnt meet T until I was in my late 30s. Slowly it all turned around for me. It can for him.

    I am in your corner. Just please dont fight over the pot. It is not going to change if you or M demands he not smoke pot.

    Love and hugs!
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    Last edited: Jan 13, 2019
  6. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    Thank you swot.

    But how do I get him to get the evaluation? He doesn't even know who is his primary? In the past he has given me zero influence over this. I despair.

    I have minus control with him on the street. Minus zero. I can't want anything for him. I have been pushing for the liver doctor for years and years. Without effect. Even when he lives with me I have no control

    Other people will be living with him. I won't tolerate anybody smoking pot in the house. That's a strong, hard line. Am I wrong?

    If he used his edibles again that would get around the problem.

    He has not responded to my text offers. I will try to sit down with him and talk.

    M will not get to decide about the marijuana. And bottom line m can live in the apartment and J in the separate house in front. Or reverse. They can live apart.
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    Last edited: Jan 13, 2019
  7. ForeverSpring

    ForeverSpring Well-Known Member

    I have one kid who sometimes smokes pot and I couldnt care less.

    I would not let anyone smoke anything around me. I hate smoke. Now to me cigarettes are more rancid and harmful than pot. Can he smoke cigarettes inside? If so, that in my opinion is a contradiction.

    I would let my kid smoke pot in HIS place if legal because demanding he smoke pot or cigarettes outside in probably wont work. I lived my last place in a no cigarette smoking inside apartment (pot is illegal here) but I still smelled cigarettes sometimes in the hall when I went out to get the mail. I dont know that this can be controlled even with stranger tenants. Pot the cops will come out and confiscate here. But I never called about pot smells.

    Thats just my ,02.
  8. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    No. He can't and doesn't smoke cigarettes inside. This was a boundary he observed.

    He will have roommates. Maybe I need to let them work it out themselves. Just keep m and j separate. Although m is expressing he doesn't care if they live together. But I did not specifically mention pot to m.

    I will ask j. And ask m.

    Thank you swot

    J needs to decide some of this.
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2019
  9. Crayola13

    Crayola13 Active Member

    Grandma might start feeling some effects from the pot if he smokes inside. Not trying to be funny. I wouldn't want the inside to wreak of pot or cigarettes, either. If he trashes the place again and doesn't respect the property, can you tolerate that? That alone might cause tension between him and grandma. If grandma has arthritis, bad back, etc., she shouldn't have to clean it up. She shouldn't have to clean it in the first place. She needs to be prepared for this before he moves in. She'll probably move out after a while. So, if your son refuses to clean, then who will? Even if you get a maid service to come once a month, the cost will be about $250. There are things the maid service won't do. As far as the daily chores, such as picking up dishes, taking out trash, etc., if he won't do that, you would have to do it because it's too expensive to have a maid come once a week. He would definitely have to smoke outside because the maid would probably get off on the smell of pot. I bet she'd be really full of energy and efficient, or she might doze off.

    I cannot remember if you said pot is legal in your state, but if you own the property, you could get in trouble. In my city, the DA can actually seize your property if they keep finding drugs on site. There have been cases in which people don't get the house back, even though they were the owners. I'm not kidding. If the dealers know where your son lives, they might come after him, and not only his life, but grandma's life would be in danger.

    As much stress and agony as you went through when you kicked him out you don't want to go through that again.
  10. Tired out

    Tired out Active Member

    Copa, When it comes right down to it you have to do what is right for you. For your peace.
    I totally get you not being on board with the pot But I am with SWOT in that it wouldn't be the battle I would fight since it is legal in your state. HOWEVER if J talks to the neuro doctor he may be able to give J a different view of pot. The more studies they do, the more they find that it doesn't have the desired effect on people who have had Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)(s). it messes with the dopamine receptors.
    Why w ould J smoking pot have anything to do with M ?

    I am not laughing. at. all. Always listen to the messages that you think you are getting.

    As I have said before, I get it. There is NO smoking of any kind allowed in my house. Never has been. But no smoking was ever allowed around my parents or their home. I grew-up with the no smoking rule. My ds didn't smoke anything in my house. He was doing that elsewhere.
    That being said. I will be totally honest. If I wasn't married and didn't have other kids in the house to worry about and it was legal here, pot wouldn't be something I would battle about. My 1st thing would to have him where I know he is safe, so that I can sleep at night (self serving for me) 2nd would be to get him to the medical appts I think he needs also to put my mind at rest.
    You said he doesn't know his primary--do you mean Primary doctor? He can call the state agency--does he have a card, can you look it up on-line for him through medicaid.gov ?

    Hugs, prayers. peace for heart and mind.
  11. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    At first I was on board with the marijuana. Which is to say, I considered it to be his business. That was when he had a medical marijuana card, and pot was not yet legal here. He was living with me. At least on and off.

    The problems arrived because of me: I always had the idea that I could influence him. Have some control. Incentivize or pressure him to change. That was before I came here to this forum. Even then, I tried way to long to hold onto the idea that I could have some influence. When I could not, I kicked him out. He never stabilized independently. That is why I bought that other house. It was very difficult to live together. I wanted a place where he could live, but not with me.

    I don't remember how long ago I started fighting him about the pot. I guess it was when NOTHING we did had any effect upon his doing anything positive. (I understand I am applying my own value system here.) And over time, he lived in a drug-filled haze; more and more his whole world seemed to be pot. He got way worse with pot. Maybe it isn't pot's fault. Maybe he just got worse.

    When people do this with alcohol we call them alcoholics. Mothers come here because their children drink too much; using alcohol to self-medicate. That's what my son does with weed.

    Oh I do get it. We keep failing at this and I have to take responsibility to not keep repeating the same mistakes.

    I think you hit on the answer, Tired. To tie in the marijuana with the brain injury. That could be the carrot for him to go to the neuropsychologist. When I googled marijuana and Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI) I saw many citations that said that marijuana benefited those with TBIs. I would tell my son that we could decide with the help of the psychologist. The other thing I am thinking of is to tell him that I would not charge rent if he agreed to use the money for therapy. But again, my default is to try to over-control.

    The primary physician is easy to find out. It would either be on his ID card for insurance or he could call Blue Cross. This is where the distance complicates things greatly. I cannot help him over the distance. If he were to come home, he could switch to my doctor who is cooperative and I believe would help us with the neuropsychologist exam.

    Meanwhile, he did write to say that he was buying his ticket to meet me tomorrow at a station 2 hours from him, and 35 minutes from me. Where I will be to go to a therapy appointment. I will only wait 20 minutes for his train. Maybe it will work.

    Thank you very much, Tired.
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2019
  12. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    I'm not laughing either, SWOT. I am believing in angels lately.
  13. Elsi

    Elsi Active Member

    I hope tomorrow has a better outcome Copa. I wish I had answers here on the best path to take. Perhaps things will be clearer once you are able to see him face to face.
  14. ForeverSpring

    ForeverSpring Well-Known Member

    J will not stop smoking pot even if he is told it is dangerous for him. He wont see the liver doctor and has been told hepatitis B can be lethal and he plain doesnt believe it or is unsure what to do, although he has been told. Or he may not get it or trust any chemically made drugs.

    J very sadly doesnt care about himself right now or else mistrusts the medical community. J is 30 and noncompliant with ANY help he is offered and many have offered him help and doctors have spoken to him. More than once. And Copa has spoken to him, begging him to treat his liver. Offering to go with him. He just doesnt.

    J is not so different from many his age who may disbelieve doctors about pot and.believe it is harmless. None of my kids believe pot is dangerous, not even my kid who is in law enforcement and never tried it herself.

    This is the generation whete pot is better than alcohol to them, and Big Pharma are liars.

    And there has been no sweeping research proving pot is dangerous that all medical people believe. The actual proof is not there. As parents we have our opinions but we are not in sync with milleneals in general. We are the old fashion people to them.

    I am not convinced pot is dangerous in moderation for most people. I dont thi k it is good on a daily basis. But I have no medical credentials.

    It was a doctor who wrote J's s script for pot in the first place. It is legal in California. He isnt breaking any laws.

    Cray, you have one very young child. One day he will be a man and by then pot will be as legal as alcohol. You will not be able to convince your, say 21 year old son, of things the way you can now at 14.

    Take that to heart. One day you will say "Swot told me I would lose my power. That my son.would change. That his ideas will not mirror my own. That his plans for his life arent always compatible with my dreams I had for him."

    He may not smoke pot regularly but most young adults will try it, like alcohol. Most try it now. It is the alcohol of tomorrow. Doctors may well not impress your son. Not as an adult. It is in my opinion unfair, I gently suggest, to state what you think may happen to a 30 year old man when you never raised one. No offense meant, its just impossible to imagine until you get there. Our kids have ways of changing a lot after 18 and surprising us. Sometimes it is in great ways. Sometimes not so great. And there is little we can do if an adult over 18 says "No."

    Now let me straighten this Grandma part out.

    There is NO Grandma for J. Most of us are Grandma age. Very few are under 55.

    M is Copas long time boyfriend, not Grandma, and J is going to live in his own place. M is not frail or sickly. He usually lives with Copa but they are not living together now nor would he live with J. So these are seperate homes.

    I know you are a teacher of gifted teens, which must be rewarding, but that does not prepare you for being a mom of a very difficult adult whose birthparents took drugs during his prenatal development.

    I have an adult son with this history too. He is 25 and fortunately just has high functioning autistic. He is doing well, but drugs in utero are not benign.

    Also gifted kids can turn into very difficult, drugged adults. Yes, your students can turn out a college dropout on drugs. I read about that a lot on this forum. No guarantees exist. Many of your students will stray from what seems like a successful path. Often drugs start in college or before starting.

    "There but for the Grace of God go I "

    Please dont confuse Copa. This is very hard for her. I know you did not mean to. I know you are kind.

    Thank you.

    Love and light to all:)
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2019
  15. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    This is the painful truth. Thank you, SWOT.

    OK. I will have an open mind. I will listen to him, and try to arrive at something that will work. A lot of the time J has not smoked marijuana in the house but outside in the yard. Maybe that could be the compromise.

    Some of what Crayola writes is true. My son is slovenly. He does not clean up and when he does it is haphazard.

    But the bottom line is this: he is disabled and he needs help. I love him and he loves me. As far as I know he does not use hard drugs, nor has he ever been violent. We are not the kind of people that turn our backs on each other, unless we have to, for survival. And we never give up.

    I set a limit with J these past 5 months, because I needed to stand up for myself because I had never done so in my life. With anybody. I had to stand up for myself with my son, so that he would understand that there are boundaries and obligations in life and that I as his mother would insist that he do the right thing. I had to do that. For me, and for him.

    But my son seems to be humbling himself somewhat. And I do not want to see him destroyed. Or broken. Although he feels broken. Which is greatly painful to me. I think he understands better now, that we have to work together. I hope so.

    And the bottom line is there is another house. M will be 25 yards away, and M's brother in law too. Maybe M's brother in law can share the house if J occupies that. And I am 20 minutes away by bus, and a 10 minute drive away. There are options.

    What I will not do is let J come back without a plan, by just showing up. At this point that is traumatizing to me. Thank you SWOT and everybody.
  16. ForeverSpring

    ForeverSpring Well-Known Member

    There goes your loving heart again. I think your heart is in the right place.

  17. Crayola13

    Crayola13 Active Member

    When you abbreviated using the letter M, I thought you were referring to your mother.

    Yes, I have told my son he's going to be ridiculed and socially ostracized for not smoking pot MI and drinking, especially when he gets to college. It's probably going to ruin his social life and he will lose many friends over it. His dad, therapist, and I have really drilled the message into his head about his genetic predisposition to addiction. He knows all about his biological mother who is still a cocaine addicted prostitute. If he accepts the message that pot isn't addictive, he might try it. I'm trying to use examples from this forum to make him realize the truth about pot. I also know that everyone who tries pot and drinks thinks they aren't going to use it enough to become addicted, but something could snap in the brains of certain people. I've told my son even though beer is only five percent alcohol, because of his genetics, he cannot even have an occasional beer. I don't even cook with white wine. The time will come when my son thinks I'm overreacting. He might try both, and I have to hope he remembers everything he's been taught.

    Yes, I had a student who got a full paid scholarship become horribly addicted to heroin after moving in with her boyfriend.
  18. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    I do not think this is true. I know of many kids who do not use pot or drink. But though my area has a major state university and another college, it is not an upper middle class area and very culturally and racially diverse. Many students are lower middle class or poor, and religion here is not mocked. It is the backbone of the community. That and exercise. Gyms are big here.

    Perhaps in upper class universities or fraternities and sororities there is more pressure to conform, and perhaps those kids feel more compelled to conform. Who knows?

    I went to University in the bastion of drug and hippie culture, at UC Berkeley. But I was poor. I worked to put myself through. While I experimented a tiny bit with marijuana and a few times with other stuff, I never liked it. I was never, ever pressured or mocked. And while I was the only student in my large residence hall who had to work (I was a waitress) I was never ever teased for that, either, or made to feel lesser. Actually, I was respected. Nor do I remember anybody being pressured to use drugs.

    Now. This was many years ago, I know.

    I think we can scare our kids too much. I don't think fear is what helps decision-making.

    I did not coach my son about drugs. I don't know why. First, as a teen he was straight and narrow. And until he was 15 or 16 he was loving and compliant. He was not attracted to people who were not kind or wholesome.

    I believe in my son's case, he did become mentally ill when he was about 18 or 20, with a mood disorder.

    Even so, my son has NOT turned to heavy drugs. Or to alcohol. He says straight out: I would never do that to myself. That is my bottom line.

    I agree with SWOT. With bio-kids and with adopted kids, its hard let alone impossible to know what will happen. One of my sister's girls became a binge drinker. I think she even got a drunk driving charge. She was compliant and shy, and never a problem. That is how it is sometimes.

    Honestly. I never believed my son would have the kind of young adulthood he has had. Call it denial. Call it stupid. But he was as sweet, happy and loving as a child could be.
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2019
  19. Crayola13

    Crayola13 Active Member

    I was never a party girl and actually lost friends because I would only have one wine cooler. This was around 1994. I imagine it will be even worse when my son gets older. He has a natural ability to make friends and is very sociable, witty, and is interested in many different things. I'm hoping those traits will help him when he encounters those situations. He fits in well with all kids. I know he could change. He is going through the smart mouth stage right now, but not as badly as I did at that age. He feels guilty about it and always says he is sorry. I honestly don't think kids can help it at that age. My mom always said I would get it back in spades, but I think because of how busy he is, he uses all that energy swimming. His activities work wonders for his anxiety and depression.

    I definitely think the schools are doing a better job of warning kids about how addictive prescription drugs are. When I was in school, I never heard one word about prescription drugs being addictive. They did a good job drilling in the message about street drugs and drinking and driving.
  20. ForeverSpring

    ForeverSpring Well-Known Member

    It is possible but unlikely that by the time he is 21 he will still be all ears. I know when we have young kids we believe our messages will resonate forever, but although it is smart to do as you are, I doubt it will work. I never partied either .
    I have never been drunk in my life. Do you know what? I never met anyone else who has never been drunk in his or her life. It is obviously not common to never get drunk.

    My youngest, in law enforcement, was such an easy child. Never even mouthed off. Didnt break rules.. we are very close

    Her birthfather was in jail several times for drug crimes. Thankfully birthmother never took any drugs. I love birthmother still. But on the birthfathers side there is alcoholism and drugs. I gave my kid the same speech you are giving your son and also to my autistic son. I repeated their risk often.

    My sweet daughter is naturally a very well behaved young woman of 22, engaged to a great guy, although she is/was also very popular with others (in high school she was prom queen) and nobody ever made fun of her for anything, least of all not smoking pot or drinking in her teens.

    But when she turned 21 she did start drinking socially. It just doesnt happen that even the best kids dont take a social drink or smoke pot socially their entire lives. Daughter never smokes pot but drinks responsibly. She did not inherit her birthfather's alcoholism. She can control her drinking. I told her it was a risk for her to drink, but she took the risk and is fine. All of her friends have drinks in social situations and she does too. I would not call her a big drinker. She is not. But....

    It is unrealistic to believe our even very nice adult kids, whether or not they are at risk and we think we prepared them, to think that they worry about it at 21 and never ever drink or smoke pot in their lives. Yes, they are at higher risk but not all become addicts. My daughter works in Corrections at our jail and gets drug tested. Alcohol counts. But at a party she will have a drink or two.

    That is what I mean by not understanding adult kids. I can almost guarantee you that no matter how much you warn your kid while he is still young, he will drink sometimes and possibly smoke pot as an adult. May not be often. May not bother him.

    Our adult kids dont really usually hang on to what we said (not all of it) and peers are far more influential than we are when they are adults....no matter what.

    We had no liquor in our house. Except for my autistic son, my other three drink socially. What we say and do does not mean much if their peers do it when they are no longer so tied to us.

    Thats why it is best to give advice when you have been there, raising a grown adult. It is way different and you will see when you get there. Until then it is beyond the imagination!!!

    I have great kids, but they do things their way. As will your son. The older they are, the less your words matter. They love you to death but their lives are going to be 100 per cent their own.

    Take it to the bank.

    Much love and luck!
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2019