Interesting Emotional Response

scent of cedar

New Member
I loved the Frankenstein movies when I was a kid. I always felt so sorry for him, caught in a place he had no part in and punished simply for being himself. I could relate.

From my vantage point now, I do believe, for me, I had to go back and heal the past.

I think Brene Brown said that when we don't allow ourselves to feel the pain, the joy and the more vulnerable feelings are also muted or in fact, non existent.

I've had to distant myself from people who have claimed they are "healed" and okay, only to find that some part of them, undiscovered and unacknowledged is running the show...........and that part, out of their awareness, can do inappropriate, hurtful or shaming things. And, if it is out of their awareness, they cannot acknowledge it so the behavior continues.

Gloria Steinem has a great quote in one of her books, something like, "the world is run by people acting out their inner dramas on the world stage"

I believe the story you wrote to be the truth.

Recovering? You are a joy to work and play through this stuff with! :O)

Carole King: Tapestry

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68v4NZG4xgE

I think we are speeding one another's process, Recovering. It spooks me, a little. I think we are never done and so, I wonder what's coming next. Our daughters, our mothers, ourselves. As long as we are here, we are here for a purpose. I think it works that where we direct our attention is where we do our work. I think all of us, every one of us, is here to accomplish whatever it is and that, when we are truly done...life ends. There isn't anyone still here who isn't working, I don't think.

You know how they say life is not only stranger than we think it is, but stranger than we CAN think it is.

I like that.

And it all begins, again.



***************

I can relate to Frankenstein too, Recovering. Stitched up out of the pieces of dead people, brought to life without a clue and taught only that he was reprehensible, that he was a created creature and so, had no right to define himself as anything other than what his creator/parent saw in him....

That would be me.

:O)

A big part of my own therapy was that breakthrough part about "Damaged, not defective. I was okay, once."

I love Frankenstein. Loved the way he got all mad. Felt so badly for him when finally, he became who the villagers' fear taught him he was. To me, that seems like a great analogy for what happens to a child in a dysfunctional family. Who might Frankenstein have become, had he been cherished for the miracle he was, rather than feared? Remember the movie where he found the little girl? It was night time, and he brought her to the village. The villagers reacted out of fear, and the movie goes on from there.

***************

Oh, Recovering, I haven't been clear enough. I wholeheartedly agree that we do need to go back and save the lives of the children we were. All the little girls or boys, stopped in their tracks and frozen, waiting for us to understand for them that what happened to them was wrong, should never have happened. You are right. Until we do that, we function without really being alive ~ function out of anger and defensiveness and fear of exposure. We don't even know how much of ourselves we are missing, until that rush of feeling is released, and is available to us, again.

I just get cranky and out of sorts with how nasty everything was for me. Know what I think? We are always replaying the areas we need to pay attention to. If we are fortunate, we are able to see and understand the events that appear to help us rethink ourselves, re-believe and rebirth ourselves. You are right. Sometimes, I just get too sad, and I don't want to do it for a little while. Plus, it's hard to pull up those old feelings and not pull a Frankenstein on my mother.

:O)

*******************

I am glad you liked the story, Recovering.

I like it, too.

Cedar
 

scent of cedar

New Member
Cedar, I remarked to my SO at dinner last evening that it was a rare gift to find another woman, in my age bracket, who is the oldest of a highly dysfunctional family with mental illnesses, who has a daughter who is a difficult child around my daughter's age.........and who writes. What are the actual odds of that?

I am in my grandmothers home and I find a room that has never been opened. I get in and in a closet in the hidden room there are many dresses, all red (like the one you chose for your granddaughter which she rejected........) from infant size to adult women size. I immediately have the knowledge (as we do in dreams!) that the hidden feature of the closet and the color red are indicative of terrible things that happened to the females on both sides of my family going back generations. I am horrified. I flee to the next room where my grandmother and various aunts are milling about along with my daughter who is about 9 in the dream. I put my daughter on a table and shine a light on her with the intention of clearing her of the past darkness that has settled on my family. I am most intent on that job, I feel almost desperate in the attempt to keep her safe from this family "curse."


It would seem that I couldn't save my own child..............(I have no idea at this point.............there is always that flicker of hope) but my granddaughter is the end of this genetic line and...............and I say this with a sense of gratitude that is profound..........she is okay.



That we found companions during such a harrowing journey IS a miracle, Recovering. I am grateful, to have, and to give. We are always taught that miracles only happened a long time ago (or maybe, that they never happened, at all), so we don't realize it sometimes, when we are in one. If we look through the events of our lives, I think we can see other times, other companions, other miracles, too. I think it is that way for all of us. And have you ever been in a hard time and someone on the street gives you such a compassionate smile that you feel stronger ~ almost, strong enough, to keep going? Or you've read or seen something in a post here that applies so personally to you, but the person who posted never even knows that? This site is a personal miracle for each of us here too, I think. I mean, how did we all find it? But here it is, and here we all are, and like all of us, I am so grateful it exists.

But I've enjoyed you in particular, Recovering. And during the worst of this, your kindness and compassion soothed both husband and I during a time when there wasn't much comfort to be had.

Thank you, Recovering.

:O)

*****************************

Oh, wow, Recovering! I was reading through your post to pick out the quotes I wanted to reply to and read the part where YOU thanked me.

You are totally welcome. I feel pretty happy about this. I hadn't seen that, the first time.

"Aw, shucks, ma'am." Cedar blushes and slips away to show Frankenstein.


********************

I love the dream about the hidden room and the red dresses, Recovering. There is an old fairy tale (If you have Women Who Run With the Wolves, it is in there, along with Estes' interpretation of that symbology.) about a young girl who is given red shoes. Or who chooses red shoes. Anyway, Estes writes that the red shoes represent menstruation ~ in other words, coming into the power of womanhood.

I never even thought of the symbolic meaning of buying my granddaughter that beautiful red dress. I love that. I hope she does become a powerful, self-possessed woman. I think in the story, the girl who wore the red shoes could not stop dancing. Handling that kind of power successfully requires great authenticity. In our patriarchal culture, where women have been so degraded, authenticity for us is hard to come by. We have been taught to believe our power has to do with sex. That isn't even part of it, any more than it is, for males. We live our lives living out our true value, but it is never acknowledged ~ not by us, and not by anyone else. That is very sad, for all of us ~ and the loss of male identity is sad, too. We are so busy defining everything with our clever little brains that we lose the totality of just about everything.

Whatever. I'm confusing myself, again. You posted something about that once, Recovering. I meant to respond, but I never did. I'm thinking you understand what I'm trying to say.

Even if I don't know what it is, exactly.

:O)

********************************

Have you read a lot of Jung, Recovering? His belief was that genetic memories carry their impacts on our spirits and psyches. Events that happened to our ancestors are in there. This information comes to us through the symbols in our dreams. That is why everyone thinks Jungians are so strange. But I think they are correct. Joseph Campbell believed something similar ~ that there is a kind of collective consciousness at work in our interpretations of spirituality through time and over vast distances.

What an interesting dream, Recovering. I believe it to be a true reflection of something that needed to be acknowledged and addressed.

This is something that occurred to me, when we believed we were going to lose difficult child daughter, this summer. I too, felt that I hadn't been able to protect her from whatever it is that is destroying us. But then, I realized that I don't know what happened, what was accomplished, why she needed to do what she did, whether I had responded appropriately.... I realized that I don't really know anything, at all. The only thing I was sure of is that I love her. If she had died last summer, I would have known only that fact for sure.

Only that. But they say that it is love that conquers fear. That is what that light was you shined on your daughter I think, Recovering.

A very powerful kind of love.

I don't even know how that fits in, here.

Cedar

Isn't it an amazing thing, how the dreams that matter stay with us, forever?

Here is a dream:

My grandmother's house. ("Aha!" say the Jungians among us.) There is an old fashioned fuse box near the ceiling, out of reach, on the very farthest corner of the upper story of the house. (In real life, this was so. Only I did not know it was a fuse box, then. I was afraid of it, but I didn't know why.) Anyway. In the dream, I climb and climb and climb the stairs, knowing I am going to see that scary fuse box at the top. The box wasn't covered like ours are, today. There were all these glittering glass things reflecting light and just being generally spooky. Kind of like those coils in the Frankenstein movies, now that I think about it.

Hmmm....

Though I am afraid, I climb the stairs, anyway.

I see the fuse box.

And here is the upshot. "The wires connect, and the music...plays of its own accord."

I have never forgotten the dream, and could not tell you to this day what it means.

It's still kind of scary, though.

Here is another:

Way, deep in the ocean, something huge rises out from deep in the sand. It's an old car. One of those big, old cars from the 40s. It is scoured so clean of everything, Recovering. No dirt. No rust. Nothing bad. All scoured clean by the sand and the salt and the sun.

That's the dream.
 

recoveringenabler

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Thank you Cedar, you are a joy to work and play with as well. Well put.

I had that album by Carole King and played it until it wore out......such good memories.

You are a mirror image for me, you have experienced similar events and come around to an interesting point of view, almost exactly like my own except you language it differently. I like the way you put it.

I agree that we are never done. I have looked at it like we all have a Mission and once we get through our own "stuff" learn the lessons we need to learn, then we use our gifts and talents to support and serve others on our Mission. As long we we are here, (in my world) we are working on our Mission. That is my belief.

I understand and agree that we are "replaying the areas we need to pay attention to" I call that 'following the clues.' It's always seemed to me that what needs to be addressed comes into our consciousness freely and if we are awake and not in too much denial, we can look there............following the clues has worked for me......it's as if our subconscious spits out the next step for us to recognize and heal. The act of holding all of that down is exhausting and takes way more energy.

I have always loved to travel and that has given me many opportunities to leave this behind for awhile. I feel fortunate in that I could put it all away, take off and really have fun.......I think that gave me the space from the heaviness to then come back and do it all over again. A good part of that magical, free child actually survived within me......

Yes, Cedar, during many of my worst and most depressing times, there were always, always people who showed up, angels, helpers, teachers, friends........the list is endless. Buddha said "when the student is ready, the teacher appears." I have always believed that. It has been true for me since I was a little girl.

Yes, this site offers us those helpers, those angels who show up with a kind word or a piece of experience. I will always treasure the helpers here who extended a kindness, a word, an ear when my heart was breaking in a million pieces every single day...........it does seem as if we stumble in here, for me in the darkest hour, in the middle of the night..........as lonely and isolated and scared and all the rest................and here is an oasis........... in a drought of epic proportions.............

I'm so glad you saw my THANK YOU! You are a treasure...........:happy-very:

I have the book Women who run with the wolves, I'll have to look that story up, thank you! I love the red shoes and the meaning behind it all. Wow.

I understand what you are saying about the feminine and the masculine and the degradation.........perhaps at some point we will have a collective power which honors both genders and utilizes all the gifts.........maybe our granddaughters will be wearing red to the Inaugural Ball as the Ambassadors of Compassion, Honor and Integrity!

I have read about Jung and his philosophies and I was at one point (of course!!) in Jungian therapy..........it was very cool. And, I have read Joseph Campbell and I believe in the collective consciousness and the power of myth and symbols. I've studied some of this as it relates to my own journey.

I believe that love conquers fear too. And, yes I always thought that the light I shone on my daughter was every bit of love I could muster. I have had dreams like that throughout my life, sounds as if you have too. Native Americans have called those BIG dreams.............the ones which have the power to change your life. The dream about the red dresses was 24 years ago and it still moves me when I think about it. I was just thinking that the feminine power in my family was closeted........hmmmm......

Reading your dream about those old fuse boxes immediately brought one word to my mind..........power. Reaching for your power. I went to a dream specialist (I DO live in California remember!!) and she told me in looking at my dreams to imagine I played all parts in the dream, even the inanimate objects..........and then try to add it all up.............

Your other dream immediately conjured up an image of both you and I, scraped clean by the ocean.............. the symbol of feelings/emotions is water...........cleansed.........of rust and dirt........

When I mention that I am done with the healing, it is the family generational healing I am speaking of. I feel I accomplished that now. The detachment from my daughter, seems to have set me free............and whatever happens with my difficult child, I feel as if she is free too...........I am not entirely sure what that means for her, she may be too steeped in the darkness to recognize freedom..............but it is now up to her to find her way to the light.

It took me 40 years to work through detaching from each member of my family in a healthy way, my daughter was the final piece of the puzzle. That is what is done.

I am not entirely sure what this next stage of life is about. I do believe freedom holds the executive office, perhaps followed by play, fun and creativity. What do you think Cedar? What's on that horizon?
 

scent of cedar

New Member
Where are we going, next....

We are in a movie filmed in the realm of the Magical Child, Recovering. We are all there, in that whispering realm beyond the reach of Time. The movie is nearly over, now. Those we have come so to cherish and hope for prepare for the journey, packing almost nothing at all.

There is the shining ring of crystal.

In silhouette against the moon, the toast is made, time after time after time.

Well nourished at the table each created and all shared, the leave taking is completed.

Beneath the wheeling circle of the stars, the journey begins.

Banners of brilliant red snap and bellows against the rising sun, thundering the wind.
 
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scent of cedar

New Member
I was just thinking that the feminine power in my family was closeted........hmmmm......


I agree, Recovering. We are (all?) engaged in the same process, but languaging it differently. (I like that term. Languaging. Good one, Recovering!)

I think your "power" would be, in my languaging, "authenticity." That is what I find on the other side of Brene Brown's "vulnerability." For me, the process has been one of remaining silent inside, of not defining or pre-thinking the thing. It seems to me that we (or at least, that I) probably needed to pre-define things, in seeking to protect myself or the others. Not knowing is probably a foolish and a dangerous thing, for the child of someone rage addicted. So, I needed to be this healed before I could risk that, maybe.

So, that is a good thing, then.

:O)


*****************

I was wondering whether your dream meant that your power (my "authenticity") was always there, has always been there, will always be there, whenever you decide to claim it. And that, maybe, there was a time in your life when you were very close to never reclaiming yourself. In your love for your daughter, in your decision to change things for her...you stepped up, Recovering.

And began the work you were born to do.

It may be that each of those dresses represents a time you were hurt to the point of shutdown, as a child. Sort of like my Frankenstein imagery. The real you is there, has been there, all along. I wonder what would happen, Recovering, if you took one of the dresses down to hear the story behind the closeting....

Cedar

I agree with your imagery of the buried car as buried power. Old, powerful cars were driven by gangsters, by criminals, right? Who knows what terrible things happened in that car before it was buried beneath the cleansing sand? So, maybe there are stories for me to listen to, too, Recovering.
 

witzend

Well-Known Member
Thank you, SOC. :hugs:

I have been getting back to my daily activities, and that has helped with the "what if's" of my family situation. You're right that I need to think of it as a "If this, then, and if that then" and get it over with before it smacks me between the eyes. Of course, I can't be too specific because they never stop surprising me with what they do. I mean, who would have thought that my dad would send a letter like that? Long story short, whatever happens it won't be the end of the world or me and I have to figure out what that looks like.

For those who are able bodied and might not know, when you're losing your ability to walk and get around you combine things. You don't just bring your coffee cup to the kitchen, you bring it to the kitchen, get out meat to thaw, go to the bathroom, comb your hair, then eventually get back to where you were. Going to the store is the same way. You don't just go to the store. You go to the Grocer, the Pet Food Store, the Dry Cleaners, and the fruit stand.

I had one of those days the other day. I had a dentist appointment in town, and husband had ordered something from a grocer in the nearby city and his cell phone battery was not charging anymore. So, 3 stops on one trip, right? Four hours and five stores later I still didn't have the battery. No one sells them, except for "battery stores" and I don't know what they're called here so I can't look it up in my GPS. I'd tried Radio Shack, our mobile provider, Target, Best Buy, and stopped at the grocer and finally found it at Interstate Battery. I was so frustrated and in so much pain I just wanted to cry. By then all I had to do was go home. Cry, or go home? I know better than to drive and cry. You might as well drive drunk. So, I pulled it together and went home. When I'm home there's no reason to cry because the frustration - but not the pain - is gone.

So next week I'm going to an MDA support group in the evening. Did you know that the MDA offers free clinics? You're seen once by the Neurologist, then twice a year you're seen by the Neurologist (they just want to track your disease is all) and any specialist that the Neurologist thinks you might want to see. Just one problem. The clinics are not free for me. I have health insurance so they bill my insurance ($570 per doctor) and I have to pay the co-pay. Since it's a specialist it's a $50 co-pay for me at the clinic, and if at the clinic they say "You need PT" (I do) or "You need orthotics" (maybe?) each PT visit or whatever is $50 too. I'm paying out $150 a month right now in medical bills for the hospital stay I had in August. I can't add $50 to that. All I can say to the group is that it would be great if they would pass it along that the clinic is not free to everyone and people are going without because MDA is making a buck off of me to help them. Not to mention that my insurance doesn't allow for twice yearly exams, only the one, which I used up now seeing the Neurologist who wasted my time and co-pay telling me that I have MD, which I have now known for 42 years. He//s bells, I'm on the cover of their patient brochure.
 

scent of cedar

New Member
I'm glad you are doing better, Witz. You have enough to work through every day, without adding the almost criminal actions of family members.

I know you have probably already tried this, but have you talked directly to the doctor (or his nurse) about whether they know how you might be able to attend the clinics without paying the co-pay? I wonder whether there would be a Social Services program that would help with that? it's a long shot Witz, but try calling 211. If your state doesn't carry that program anymore, look up United Way and call them.

I would try Red Cross, too.

You never know. You do need these services, and you legitimately cannot afford them. There should be something out there for you.

I hope there is. It would be too cruel, if there weren't.

Cedar
 

recoveringenabler

Well-Known Member
Staff member
I took a weekend long seminar many years ago the title of which was "Entrepreneurial tools." It was facilitated by a sort of well known guy who had been in a South American prison for political reasons for quite some time. (Brings to mind Nelson Mandela.) He was one interesting dude. On Friday night, standing behind a podium addressing us, his opening statement to us was "Suffering is a linguistic phenomenon, it happens in our languaging."

I have never forgotten how powerfully that hit me. That is where I picked up the term languaging. It fits well, doesn't it? And, I have pondered that statement he made for all these years.............a statement which was born while he was in prison..........one can only imagine what his self talk was and how he rose above his circumstances. And yet, his suffering cracked open a part of him that produced a philosophy which he ended up teaching to others..................interesting isn't it?

There are a number of quotes that I ponder for years attempting to glean the meaning out of.........the suffering quote is one of them.

There is another which I read in a book on Buddhism many years ago........."the Great Way is open to those who have no preferences." It was addressing judgement and the Buddhist view on compassion and balance.

I agree that we "needed to be this healed before we could risk that." My understanding is that for those of us so wounded, the psyche needs to be a certain strength before it can engage in the real truth..........and once we can, in integrating that truth, I believe that is where the real authenticity happens. And, the power to be one's real, authentic self. Yes, I do agree that in being vulnerable, one is being real, being authentic and thereby powerful in one's truth.

On both sides in my family Cedar, women have had virtually no power. My Dad was born in another country, completely patriarchal. My mother's family was, as I view it now as an adult, void of any feminine qualities, it was a cold and unforgiving environment. My parents were products of their upbringing which perhaps lent itself to raging and mental illnesses. I think when you are completely arrested in your authenticity, your real self, you can quite literally, go crazy. No one in my immediate family has "thawed out." Except me.

Maybe those red dresses were bits of myself stored away to keep me safe in a hostile environment.............red being the color of vitality, blood, passion............all hidden underneath fear. You've made a good point, it makes sense.

"In your love for your daughter, in your decision to change things for her...you stepped up, Recovering.
And began the work you were born to do
." Thank you Cedar. I would venture to say the same about you. And, if I look back throughout my life, I have always been involved in service, volunteering, helping, trying to share what I've learned............the positive and flip side of enabling.......It sounds as if you have too...........what appears to be happening now is that I am finding myself in more situations where my odd and unique skill set can be put to good use in assisting others who have a similar background or similar circumstances or utilizing my communication skill to be helpful in other ways. I think I have somehow owned a certain power/authenticity within myself, which may have always been there, but now feels integrated. In experiencing my own sense of wholeness and inner certainty, my place in the scheme of life seems to be stabilized in a way it had not been possible before. Are you having any experiences like that?

I can't help but imagine that all of this recent learning places us on a new and improved "Mission" which is revealing itself now. I'm actually preparing myself for this change now, even though I am not sure how it will look, it feels imminent. Do you have that sense too?

"Beneath the wheeling circle of the stars, the journey begins."

One of my more whimsical favorite quotes is, "we don't know where we're going, but we're on our way!"







 

scent of cedar

New Member
"Suffering is a linguistic phenomenon, it happens in our languaging."


can engage in the real truth..........and once we can, in integrating that truth, I believe that is where the real authenticity happens. And, the power to be one's real, authentic self. Yes, I do agree that in being vulnerable, one is being real, being authentic and thereby powerful in one's truth.

I think I have somehow owned a certain power/authenticity within myself, which may have always been there, but now feels integrated. In experiencing my own sense of wholeness and inner certainty, my place in the scheme of life seems to be stabilized in a way it had not been possible before. Are you having any experiences like that?

I can't help but imagine that all of this recent learning places us on a new and improved "Mission" which is revealing itself now. I'm actually preparing myself for this change now, even though I am not sure how it will look, it feels imminent. Do you have that sense too?

Regarding languaging our suffering, Recovering. I think that was fantastic. We see what we perceive and believe it into reality, right?

"Some things are because you name them. You perpetuate them in your language. You commiserate over the woe they have wrought you. Say simply that these things are not so. Do not change the label, but the labelness. Eliminate them from your life by washing them first from your tongue. Ignoring that which is false is also a knowing. Thus, learning.

To learn is to grow and to grow is to live.

You may practice forgetting and thus, learn.

Avata washes your tongue here that you may properly inflect the name and then, forget it. Avata brings you this to cleanse you of expectancies.

You are the observer-effect."

The Jesus Incident
Herbert/Ransom

************************

Another interesting thing for me to think about, Recovering. Each time I search for how to communicate my feelings to you, I clarify them to myself, push the borders a little further.

:O)

I feel a sense of authenticity in holding strong for myself in my interactions with others. It's like I'm actually here, fully present ~ or at least, more present, which feels like fullness to me at this point. Part of this is the decision to ride that edge of vulnerability Brene Brown writes about. To do that, I have to address a certain amount of fear disguised as anxiety.
While I have known the anxiety was there, I have not been able to surmount it. Tried and true family patterns of dealing with anxiety ~ and for my family, that is busyness and laughter and blatant manipulation and rage (but the busyness, like the laughter, has a frantic, razored edge to it), have been automatic. At the end of the day, what I remembered was my own responses. Had I been funny, had I been given enough attention, had I been funnier than, been given more attention than. Had anyone exploded, been left out, been insulted, been ignored. Had I controlled my anger, had I been kind.

It was all about judging and having been judged and how had that all looked; all about me, all about nothing, because there was no center to it. Competition is big in my family, but never acknowledged.

Jealousy is big. (This last is according to my mother, who loves to stir the pot. She told me this summer that she gets such a kick out of the way my sister and I are both so jealous of the relationship either of us has, with my mother.)

Which is an interesting thing for that same mother to say.

("Cyanide, Cedar? Oh, before you go? I think I gave your sister the bigger piece.")

Grrrr.

:O)

Jealousy would be what happens in a realm of scarcity, of withholding, of scorn. Jealousy is not about the object of the jealous person's affections, but is about the jealous person's frail and struggling sense of self. That sense of not enough, of fraudulence and failure at the heart of things.

Now, where was I?

Ah, I know. So yes, as I stay where I am without trying to laugh or busy or protect myself out of the moment, I am finding a certain sense of authenticity which is much preferable to the way things looked to me before. So many times, I tell myself that, as I already know what I think, I would like to be here this time, to hear what anyone else is thinking or concluding.

I never do this with my family of origin.

Too risky for me, at this point in my own awakening.

That is the only way I know to answer the first part of your question about wholeness and inner certainty, Recovering. I would say I'm having a look around. I am still sampling what this feels like, seeing what I learn.

Yes, on the question of Mission...only I would say sense of purpose. But at the same time, I am beginning to be aware that I never really know what happened. I think there are thousands of possibilities in every interaction, every thought, every choice. What happens, happens based on where and who each of the parties to the interaction is, right at the moment the interaction is taking place.

Like a kaliedoscope. The pattern you see depends on when you look.

It's like watching Sponge Bob. The story you see, and the meaning you take from what you saw, has to do with who and where you were before the cartoon ever came on. A two-year old sees the program in one way, an adult, because the cartoon is devised that way, sees something else altogether. The two year old will never see those parts, though they were there all the time, until she is not two, anymore.

So, it's impossible to know what really happened, to us or to the other guy, in our interactions with others. I do know that honesty regarding anxiety, the willingness to be exposed, to be without defense for a little while, the willingness to stand in the fire of it ~ these are good things. That is what I was trying to explain about my feelings for my daughter, these days. I don't know so much about anything at all, anymore. I love her. I enjoy thinking about and hearing from her.

And that is all I know.

Perhaps, as we go on, our definitions of what is happening, of what we are seeing, change and deepen.

I am apprehensive about being good enough, about performing well enough, about letting another person or myself down, again and again and again. But at the same time, I am willing to understand that it is what it is. That to move forward by increments is still to move forward.

And yet, right here, right now, is all there really is.

I feel like I'm in an episode of that show about the Buddhist warrior monk. You know the one. Where he brands his arms by carrying the cauldron of fire. I would like to see that, again. Wonder what that was called, Recovering?

Cedar
 

recoveringenabler

Well-Known Member
Staff member
So he shaved his hair off!
MV5BMjAyNDI5OTkyMl5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwNzk5NzkyMQ@@._V1_SY317_CR44,0,214,317_.jpg
 

recoveringenabler

Well-Known Member
Staff member
"Each time I search for how to communicate my feelings to you, I clarify them to myself, push the borders a little further."

That is also very true for me too Cedar. And, I am quite grateful for the opportunity.

That story about your mom is creepy Cedar...........our mothers were cruel. Was it vulnerability they saw in their daughters to bring out that cruelty?

I've been cruel to myself. Other daughter's of cruel mothers turned out to be cruel themselves..........My grandmother was cruel to my mother............sheesh..........I very much want to believe that with me, the 'buck stops here.'

I like your kaleidoscope analogy. I was just talking to Nomad (as we do here) about how I have learned to look at my daughter and our lack of connection, my detachment from her, from a certain perspective, a certain lens.........through which I choose what I am willing to see.........because if I see it a certain way, it hurts my heart...... deeply..............the same with my mother, sister, brother..................some others too................perhaps what I've done is made some personal adjustments to the kaleidoscope I look through which now omits certain views...........the views which I can't change and which in some manner harm me. The views I am choosing are more peaceful and............ allow me to breathe deeply.

I did have to walk through all those feelings though, I'm not sure you can choose to have a different perspective if you haven't felt your own pain.........perhaps then it would simply be denial.

With speech we can do that with our languaging. We can learn to choose to not suffer. We can change the way we define a thing...........When I was first studying meditation, what seemed the most daunting was to learn to push aside all the thoughts...........that always seemed to be the final frontier, how to quiet the mind from it's continual assessment, judgment, evaluation...........thoughts that are so unkind to ourselves let alone others. I think it's a good practice to quiet the mind, to allow space between all of those thoughts.........peace seems to live there.

And, if there's one thing I am always making every attempt to expand..........that would be peace..............and the other...........freedom...............


 

greenrene

Member
I just wanted to say that I'm sloooooowly reading and digesting this thread, as I feel that it is so very profound in so many ways that I need... From recovering from childhood trauma (I grew up in a cultish church environment and have massive mother wound issues) to the stress of raising a difficult child, to yearning for my own wholeness and healing... Yeah. I've just ordered 3 books for my Kindle - Waking The Tiger, The Power of Now (Eckhart Tolle), and The Untethered Soul.

I've been seeing a therapist for several months now, and I'm coming to realize that, for the first time in my life, I'm finally at a place where I have a chance to truly grow and heal. I have a safe place to just talk about whatever, letting whatever feelings (and associated expletives) just fly, and it has been absolutely wonderful. I'm beginning to think there may be hope for me, and I plan to save this thread and refer back to it from time to time.

Thank you to all who have contributed - it's an amazing read.
 

scent of cedar

New Member
I am sure I speak for Recovering, Witz, Nomad, and Annie, too, when I say I am honored to be part of your healing greenreen, and to know you have been reading along, part of mine, part of ours.

Thank you.

Wishing well and sending strength.

Cedar

Please feel free to add to the discussion. I haven't read Waking the Tiger. The Tolle and Untethered Soul are wonderful books. The diaries of Etty Hilesum, Maria Harris' Dance of the Spirit, all of Charles Williams (Descent into Hell, The Greater Trumps, All Hallows Eve) have been works I could identify with. Welcome, welcome, welcome!

:O)
 

scent of cedar

New Member
That story about your mom is creepy Cedar...........our mothers were cruel. Was it vulnerability they saw in their daughters to bring out that cruelty?

I very much want to believe that with me, the 'buck stops here.'

the views which I can't change and which in some manner harm me.

I'm not sure you can choose to have a different perspective if you haven't felt your own pain.........perhaps then it would simply be denial.

With speech we can do that with our languaging. We can learn to choose to not suffer. We can change the way we define a thing..........

I think it's a good practice to quiet the mind, to allow space between all of those thoughts.........peace seems to live there.

I don't know how to think about my mother, Recovering. I have heard her described as a narcissist. My sister and I liken her to the scorpion, in that story about the fox and the scorpion. In case you don't know it, I will tell it, here. I will tell that story, and the story about the frog and the poisoned pond, too.

I think it is crucially important that we have a witness, that we be able to share, and to validate, the wrongness in our childhoods with someone who was there, or with someone, like a good therapist, who has been trained to take, and take us back from there, safely. Without a witness, the things we remember seem too impossibly wrong to have happened. Or, because we have been treated like someone such things can, do, and should happen to, we **** ourselves more thoroughly every time we relive the memory. Without the witness there to defend and stand for us until we are strong enough, until we can see beyond the only truths we knew, we cannot refute them, and heal. I agree, Recovering, that we need to walk through the pain of what was believing our own truths, before we can begin to understand the mother-wounds. (That is greenreen's phrase ~ I like that!)

My sister and I made a pact that we would try to create family from what we had left. We are doing our best. There are pitfalls and times my mother purposefully stirs the pot to isolate one or another family member, to this day. My mother is not finished weaving destruction into her family. She is spiteful, hate-filled, and cruel beyond belief. And yet, she is so out of the ballpark that I feel protective of her. This is a vulnerability, and does not protect me, or my children, from her.

husband did not believe me, during the early years of our marriage. He felt that our children should, of course, see their grandparents. Now, having been stung more than once himself, he understands the what, but not the why. Like the frog in the story I am about to tell, he refuses to go anywhere near her, and has her in our home only reluctantly. She is very bright, my mother. Very subtle, as she goes about destroying something, and is savagely triumphant, when she wins.

She has tried to destroy my marriage, and has destroyed my sister's marriage. My sister is remarried, now....

My mother hated/worshiped her family of origin. We do not know them well. But our paternal grandmother (whom my mother hates passionately to this day) loved us unconditionally. And so, because we were loved, we know how to love, and how to be loved; and that has made all the difference.

Whenever we have the option of loving, of acceptance, of smiling at someone ~ any opportunity to make the world a brighter, gentler place, we need to do that ~ especially those of us who have somehow come through whatever happened to our mothers with our capacities to love, to see and believe in the best, intact. We may, like my grandmother's love did, for us, be the one real, hopeful thing in someone's life.

We may be the thing, as my grandmother's love for us was, that makes the difference between someone who chooses to love and someone who chooses to hate.

I know this to be absolutely true.

One person can make that difference.

Anyway, here are the stories.

:O)

A fox and a scorpion standing on the bank of a raging river. The scorpion convinces the fox she will not sting him if he carries her across to the opposite bank. The fox refuses, stating that he KNOWS the scorpion will sting him, because that is what scorpions do. Over the course of the afternoon, the scorpion convinces the fox to carry her across the river. As they reach the other bank, she stings the fox and leaps to safety. Dying, the fox pants, "But you promised!"

"Stupid fox!", the scorpion replied. "You knew what I was when you agreed to carry me across the river."

And that is what it is like to interact with my mother. We both know it. The venom is long-acting stuff. Often, it takes putting things together to realize she has stung, again. But she always does. It is in her nature.

***************

You may have heard this one. I will repeat it, anyway.

Once up on a time, there lived a family of frogs in a poisoned pond. There came a day when a beautiful, brilliantly green frog from a large, healthy pond happened onto the poisoned pond. Powerful throat swelling, he sang his song for the beautiful maiden frog he knew lived there, in the poisoned pond.

And she came away with him.

And oh, she grew strong and healthy herself, in the clear waters of the beautiful pond he took her to, so far away from the toxic waters of the poisoned pond where she had grown up and come into her maturity. And one day, she gave birth to a beautiful daughter of her own. And the child grew strong and healthy in that sunshiny place where they all lived together, listening to the powerful song of the father. But, one day, the young mother began to wonder about her own family.

She wanted to see them, to help them, to teach them about the pond where she now lived, where the water was sweet and good, and the sun shone every day.

She wanted them to see her baby.

Her mate, the strong male frog with the beautiful song, cautioned her not to go. He forbid her to bring their daughter there.

But one dark night, the young frog took her daughter, and slipped away.

In the night, the pond looked just as she remembered it, and she was so happy to be home! As she entered the water with her baby daughter in her arms, she felt a weakness, a kind of vertigo. But, determined to help her family, to teach them a better way, she went on, fully entering the pond.

By morning, the toxins in the pond, unseen, untasted, so subtly corrupting, had made it so that she was not sure, anymore, just where she had entered the pond. By noon, she was too weak to have left the pond anyway, even if she could have remembered how to get out.

She raised her daughter, there in the poisoned pond.

And she told her daughter a story the mother herself no longer had the capacity truly to believe. It was a story about a strong, healthy male, beautifully green, who had sung of a pond where the water was clear and the sun shone, every day.

****************

This is what husband says, about my mother: It's as though I have a bottle of sealed poison. The bottle is sealed in wax and covered in dust. There are times, to this day, when I still believe there is a mystery in the bottle valuable enough that I risk opening that wax seal. I read the warnings printed everywhere, in that place where I keep that bottle of poison. Without fail, the day will come that I retrieve the bottle, and open it.

I am poisoned by it, every time.

The bottle is poison. However I wish it, however certain I am that this time, I will be strong enough to heal it, to change the poison in the bottle...I will never be able to change it into something that is not poison.

I will never become immune.

I need to acknowledge the bottle, acknowledge the poison...but every time I open it, I will be poisoned, so I need to beware and be aware.

Poison is poison.

***************

husband was born in Italy. His mother mothered me, taught me how to mother, how to hold and cherish my babies.

I think I love his mother more than husband does. There again, is the truth that we never know who we are helping, or how. Always, always choose to be a little bigger, to make a little more room at your table, to be kind, if you can do it.

So, that's my story, which I told to this degree for the sake of greenreen.

Cedar
 
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