What does detachment look like to you?

[scent of cedar]

Taking the focus off of "the other" and putting it on us is what codependency recovery is all about.

You may be looking at that from your frame of reference of what 'enough' is.........I'd venture to say they look at that differently. Or they would do something about it.

They may have enough, they may even have more then you.

She operates on a totally different wave and my perceptions of that can easily turn into fear because I judge her

so I've learned to pull back from that thinking...........to stop judging her life as 'not enough.'

As time has gone by I have had to recognize that I look at her through the only lens I have, my own truth and my own value system.....

but my daughter doesn't live in my truth and my value system, she lives in her own

and believe me, I could judge the heck out of that

but it works better for me if I back up

this is the ultimate letting go of control..............when it's your child..........when you can do nothing to help them.............when all your efforts fail................when it continually harms you to keep trying................that's when I fell right into the serenity prayer and understood it from a deeper level..............

that's where the freedom lies, in acceptance. Just like the 5 stages of dying, acceptance is the final frontier.

there is a darker side to what we may call compassion........and that is when you step in to assist, or help, or support, or give but you do it from a place of feeling sorry for the person, from a step above them, not from an equal place.

I had to think about that because it comes from inside of us, and it is part of the rescuer's job jar.........a one-up position which feeds the ego not the soul.

Rescuers, enablers and codependents get a lot of applause for helping others, for 'sacrificing' ourselves for others...........

it's interesting to examine our motives..........

People don't want us to feel sorry for them, that feels bad, they want us to be there with them and understand.........there's a difference.

Only you can go inside yourself and figure that out. It changed a lot for me though. It was a pretty big part of my own healing too.

Detachment is a huge part of what we do here with our adult kids. But acceptance is what we have to end up doing for US.

You've given me so much to think about, Recovering.

Thank you. You are correct in every instance. This can't have been easy to share, and I appreciate it more than you know.

How surprising to understand that the pain, fear, and confusion I feel over both my children come from the judgments I am making. WTF, right? True, though. And you are right, of course ~ each of them may very well have more than I acknowledge or can see. And here is the proof of that: daughter has had everything that I have now and found no meaning in it.

And, viewed in this peculiar light, son fought with everything he had not to become who we were so determined he would be.

It seems so simple, when viewed from that perspective. Could it truly be that easy? Could it truly be that our children are making rational, intelligent, fully engaged choices...and that I am the one who doesn't understand, who maybe never got it, never understood the real purpose or value of life?

Certainly, my daughter has more courage than I do.

If you take it a step further, if you see it just a little differently, Recovering...we may have raised children of rare vision and courage. Or been gifted with children of rare vision and courage. (Which I, for one, have barely survived raising.)

:O)

Well, how do you like that.

It makes a crazy kind of sense, seen in this light. Everything that's happened ~ even what she is doing, now. Or, as you said...she would change it. Could it be true that our kids are calling baloney on the things that are important to us because they really see no value in the things we believe matter?

Hmmm....

Recovering, my kids SAY stuff like this to me.

But like you, I have seen through the only lens I have. (Cedar said, adjusting her focus and watching the universe expand.)

*****************

You are right about there being a dark side to compassion, Recovering. Compassion does require empathy. It is pity which requires mercy ~ requiring in exchange that unconditional self regard, that the sense of rightness and efficacy, be sacrificed.

You are right too about feeding the ego through the "great, compassionate Oz" feeling, and the emptiness that attends identification with its mandates.

Another excellent discussion, Recovering.

My head is spinning.

I think I am getting this.

Thanks!

Cedar

 

[recoveringenabler]

Cedar, good morning. It's always a pleasure to engage with you...........

I was struck by this "Could it truly be that our children are making rational, intelligent, fully engaged choices...and that I am the one who doesn't understand, who maybe never got it, never understood the real purpose or value of life?"

I believe you and I share a similar purpose and value of life, our daughter's do not. One isn't better or right ..........they're just different. I don't think we have to judge our own lives as being without value or purpose, that's a part of judgement and either/or thinking..........they can both exist simultaneously and be valuable. Perhaps your daughter has a 'different' kind of courage then you do. It takes a lot of courage to continue to love our kids regardless of how much it hurts us, I see that courage in you...........it takes courage to look within at our own demons and learn from them, I see that courage in you. It takes courage to admit to our shortcomings, I see that courage in you. You have enormous courage Cedar, your kids inherited that from you, they just went down a different road.

Yes, I do believe our kids do not see value in the things that matter to us, but that doesn't mean the things that matter to us aren't valuable. It's okay that they are forging their own value system. Except if it harms me, then I have to retreat, I have to take care of myself out of my own self respect as Stressbunny mentioned.

Emerson said, "to be yourself in a world that is constantly trying to make you something else, is the greatest accomplishment." So, I think for ALL of us, it takes vision and courage just to be ourselves..........you and me included, our daughters, our mothers, all of us. Some of us get there, some of us don't, but I think we are all trying..........

I have often thought that my intense internal desire to be free, to be liberated from my family's tight hold on me was passed on to my daughter............her intense need to be free defies convention, defies my own ways of looking at it, but 'free' she is.

There is a wonderful quote by Rumi, "out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field, I'll meet you there." That is the field I will meet my daughter in.

The judgement thing is a tough one, if we're not judging someone else, we are brutally judging ourselves, it seems to swing back and forth like a pendulum..........I aspire to live in that "middle way" the Buddhists speak about, that place where one can reside without judgement, with compassion and acceptance. That field. That is certainly a work in progress. I practice every day and fail every day........but I continue to practice.

To accept my daughter and her choices, without judgement and yet keep boundaries around myself so as not to be harmed by her choices and lifestyle is, for me, living on that razor's edge you spoke about. One little slip and I'm left bleeding. So, I keep myself as healthy as I can. I need my strength and resolve for this journey...........

An older woman friend of mine, (who is wise and wonderful) is from another culture so has a different 'take' on things, responded to my saying, "I want to be of service" by saying, "I don't understand this concept of being of service. Aren't you being of service just by being you. If you are comfortable in yourself, if you trust yourself, if you have love in your heart and you are being YOU, then you are being of service. You don't have to DO anything, you just have to be yourself. You are 'of service' simply by being YOU." I've been thinking about what she said a lot. It blows a lot of holes in my own 'stuff' about 'not being enough.' It was good for me to hear.

That 'not being enough' belief creates scarcity, enabling, control, judgement, comparisons, striving............it's a soul killer and it's common. I've been looking at that for a long time. My daughter brought it all out in remarkable ways. I see that as an opportunity for growth. As each issue surfaces, I address it.

It was explained to me like this: if the root belief is 'I'm not enough' then many other beliefs grow out of that root. As we address the layers and layers of it, our judgments, our control, our sense of scarcity, our beliefs about not having enough money, love, time, food,.........our jealousy and envy about what others have and we don't.........eventually we arrive at that root and we can dismantle it so it doesn't run our lives out of our awareness. Interesting isn't it?

Our daughters pushed it all to the surface for us to grow from. That's how I look at it. Our boundary setting around their behavior, pushes them to grow too. Our self respect for our own lives and letting them go pushes them to grow too. We are students and teachers here I believe, just trying to be ourselves in a world trying to make us into something else. It is definitely a "heroes journey."

 

[Nomad]

I like that saying RE..."Old ways, won't open new doors."
...kinda like..."if you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you always got"
Blessings and good thoughts for a healthy, happy, new, blessed day and even better days ahead!

 

[scent of cedar]

That was such a pretty thing to read this morning, Nomad. I am still smiling.

:O)

Cedar

 

[scent of cedar]

It's okay that they are forging their own value system.

"out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field, I'll meet you there." That is the field I will meet my daughter in.

*********************


If you are comfortable in yourself, if you trust yourself, if you have love in your heart and you are being YOU, then you are being of service. You don't have to DO anything, you just have to be yourself. You are 'of service' simply by being YOU."

*****************

That 'not being enough' belief creates scarcity, enabling, control, judgement, comparisons, striving............

Our self respect for our own lives and letting them go pushes them to grow too.

I seldom think of myself as courageous, Recovering. I read those lines over and over again, just for the taste of it.

:O)

It is a fascinating thing to talk with women from other cultures. There are depths and rhythms unfamiliar to me, there. As you indicated occurred in your interaction too, Recovering, the locus of control seems firmly seated in the self for these women. Perhaps, unlike the thinly veiled hatred that passes for freedom in our own misogynistic culture, they have been raised to believe the female (and by extension, the male) has intrinsic value. I see that in husband's mother, and in the almost sacred way her children (including husband ~ and me!) view her. She exudes a very strong sense of intrinsic value. Truly, there is nothing at all that she needs to do but be herself. This makes it easy for her to love people ~ or to be appropriately angry without holding a grudge. It makes it easy to be ourselves around her.

I am happy this happened, Recovering. How does that old saying go? Something about seeing our own shadows in someone else's light?

I remember telling you once that it was husband's mother who taught me to mother my own children, and who demonstrates for me to this day which are the values that matter.

It is interesting to note that my daughter is, and has been since she was a little girl, fascinated with Native American culture. Because of that, I too (kicking and screaming at first, I admit it!) have learned about that culture. It is a very different thing than the legitimized prejudice I had been taught to believe.

Time and again, I was shocked into confronting my own prejudice.

What kind of society do we live in, where these kinds of belief systems flourish?

When I did an exploration of misogyny, and of its roots in Western society, I was horrified.

Anyway, I am glad you were able to hear what the lady was telling you, Recovering.

:O)

Here, are some things I learned about Native culture:

The concept of time and distance are very different than ours. Visiting, traveling to visit, sharing and interacting on many levels ~ these are primary values, for them. I can't describe it, really. But the culture is very different than ours. Kinder. More connected to hearing what rides the wind or whispers through branches or travels in the scent of things, and more attuned to one another. Though seen as stoic? They are bright, quick, generous and hilarious.

One of our nephews married an African woman. It has been quite an education to come to know her, to hear the stories of her childhood, to learn which are the values she instills in her own children.

All of which goes back to your comment about having been taught that we are not, intrinsically, enough. There is more here than just what happened to us as children, Recovering. Perhaps this lesson is bigger than either of us suspects....

***************

I fully agree that we confront the same issues on deeper and deeper levels, and that, jealousy, envy, greed ~ all the seven deadly sins in fact ~ are born in that feeling of scarcity/vanity. It amazes me that, once we become aware that a different interpretation of self is possible...we can do that, down on all those levels where it is impossible to see with any certainty, simply by understanding, simply by coming to believe there is a better way and letting go of those old, now-exposed-as -false beliefs. Here is an interesting thing: After pulling through old business these past few weeks and feeling shaken by those old beliefs, strong as ever and not willing to let go of me without a fight? I started eating too many things, eating when I wasn't hungry, eating after I was full, that kind of thing. I found myself thinking of food as much as I would be if I were literally starving. I thought about it all the time. It was the craziest thing.

I stopped doing yoga. Stopped practicing karate.

WATCHED ALOT OF BEVERLY HILLS HOUSEWIVES!!!

)


So, that had to be about the continuum of greed. Acknowledging an emptiness, a cold, dark place within, I began trying to fill myself up. I literally could not stop thinking about food. As we are learning though, acknowledging a vulnerability allows the air to get at it, and it begins to heal.

I was literally making myself sick, was literally making unhealthy choices ON PURPOSE.

Interesting stuff.

Judgment is the same way. Awe of those "above," patronization of those "beneath." Blind as a bat to anything but what we choose to tell ourselves we see, or we would never have become trapped in that circle in the first place.

The hardest thing is just to sit there and feel what it feels like.

Layers and layers and layers.

I may be going far afield from the topic of detachment. I am not sure. These may be the issues that prevent me from accepting what is.

Cedar

 

[recoveringenabler]

I think that often many of us do not perceive ourselves in a true light, the truth of who we are does not penetrate through our own limited and distorted self perception. I believe that when we judge another often it is us seeing in 'them' what we cannot or don't want to see in ourselves. (you know the index finger pointing outwards, while the other fingers point at the self) I think we all know how that looks, it's easier to pick it out in someone else when we are on the sidelines saying to ourselves, "can't they see that they do the exact same thing they are judging that guy about?" But, no....... we can't seem to be able to see. The interesting thing is that the same is true when we admire someone..........often it is a trait we have not yet acknowledged within ourselves. That's what I was thinking when you commented about your daughter having courage............it's a trait you haven't yet acknowledged within yourself.

Telling ourselves the truth is a great act of courage. You do that. It's a great risk because it forces change. Choosing to learn about love from your mother in law and practice what you learned is probably the most profound act of courage, I think loving another ......husband...... children........ requires enormous courage because, as Brene Brown says, we could lose them, it puts us in the most vulnerable place..........and yet we open our hearts and dive in anyway, taking that risk........Good Lord Cedar, you have that courage. I think you have to face the fact that you are a warrior mom with a truckload of courage..........it's simply the truth.

I think growing up without mothers who mirrored our worth, our value..... we've had to carve that out for ourselves, I know I have. And, to do it in a culture where women are perceived as having less value has made that journey a challenge. From a certain vantage point, it almost makes sense that our daughter's would fight like the dickens to escape the fate they witnessed as ours and the general restrictions, (acknowledged and unacknowledged), for girls in our culture. I think one could "go crazy' under those kind of circumstances and certainly be seen as unstable and judged for the lifestyle they choose to live. And, as humans often do, in swinging to the extreme, to the opposite pole, many of the nuances, the balance points, the 'middle ground,' the harmony ..............is lost.

I did that with my own mother.......in my quest to be nothing like her I threw the whole picture overboard. Only to find out later in life that some of those traits were positive and good and I had to go back and retrieve them. Oddly some of them turned out to be the best parts of me. But, I had to sort through it all and discover it all for myself. No one else can do that for us, we have to find ourselves in the rubble of the fire we ourselves started in our attempt to burn down the 'house of our mothers'........

I understand too that the concept of 'not enough' goes beyond what happened to us......... in my observation it's a deeply rooted universal issue........ but that is beyond the scope of this post. However, at some point in time, perhaps we might meet in that "field" and have that discussion...........I would enjoy that!

I did a similar thing about the eating and not focusing on my health. I've recently begun the ascent out of that place, but I do understand what you are saying. When my first marriage ended, I assumed the blame and anorexia followed. I was fortunate to find help quickly.....it taught me a lot.........food, too much of it, too little of it, or rigidity about it, is an interesting way in which we can harm ourselves. There's that control issue again............

As this chapter with my daughter has come to this point, I am emerging from that in-between place, like I was in limbo between lives...........the 'before enabling' and 'after enabling' for lack of a better way to put it......some of my self care went on hiatus, especially the eating and physical routines.........however, I am happy to report that recently, I have 'come back to life' physically and have a new grip on that once again. I feel pretty good actually.

As I mentioned to you on another post where we were discussing judgement, I am still contemplating that Buddhist statement, "the Great Way is open to those who have no preferences." It's a mind boggling statement for me having been brought up in this culture.........and yet I know, for me, it holds a great truth which I am still unraveling......

"Legitimized prejudice" an interesting turn of a phrase.........

I am familiar with Native American teachings, I too have been interested in a way of life which respects and honors life in a manner which is often foreign to us...............my Dad was from another culture and in addition to his wildness, he taught me a lot about honor, of myself and of others. I am grateful for that piece, I believe it's what gave me the courage to begin my own healing journey when I was very young. My parents did a lot of harm to us kids, but they also gave us some gifts along the way, it's been an interesting journey to find all the different pieces, the good, the bad and the ugly............ sort through it all...... throw a lot away, sift the rest of it together into something that's formed the fabric of my life. Talk about a tapestry.

I think our kids are doing that too. In their own way, trying to find themselves. Trying to get us to accept them for who they turned out to be. In order for me to be whole and complete, I've had to separate not only from my parents, but from my child.............detach from all of them so I could find myself. Whew.......

 

[scent of cedar]

Missing the "like", Recovering. I read your post more than once. My response is still cooking.

:O)

Cedar

 

[scent of cedar]

Here are some interesting things I found on TED, this morning. One is on instilling a mindset of growth ~ growth in intelligence, in confidence, in physical, physiologic change. One is on the language of building self confidence ~ both in ourselves, and in others. And one is on discovering what work it is that we can't not do. This one has to do with the concepts of passionate success. I think these pieces do apply to this conversation. Learning to interact in healthy ways involves changing our patterns of thought.

I will paraphrase some of the most interesting stuff, in case you don't have time to listen to all of them.

From the talk about success: "You are the average of the five people you spend the most time with." Jim Rohn

From the talk on confidence: "Live strong." was Lance Armstrong's personal self talk. That is why he named his movement after it. "I am the greatest." was Mohammed Ali's self talk. "I am captain of my ship and the Master of my fate." was someone else's self talk, but I didn't catch whose.

Ahem.

Nonetheless, he must have been famous enough that his self talk is being used to inspire the rest of us.

:O)

And the talk on change: A fixed, as opposed to a fluid, or "growth" mindset, will say: "I can't do it." To help ourselves see it differently, a growth mindset would be: "I can't do it...yet."

Interesting stuff. Also, each talk addresses changing the way we talk to children and grandchildren. Don't say: "You are so special." or, "You are so bright." These statements imply that the child has not had to try. It teaches them that if they don't get something right away, they need to give up. It teaches them that those who "get it" must be more special than they are. Far better to say: "You must have tried really hard to do this so well."

Success

www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpe-LKn-4gM

Self Confidence

www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-HYZv6HzAs

Change

www.youtube.com/watch?v=pN34FNbOKXc

Cedar

Actually? I didn't go looking for these. I posted a Christmas carol yesterday. That page was still up when I checked in this morning...and there were all these interesting TED talks that I really needed to hear.

 

[recoveringenabler]

I watched the 3 TED talks Cedar, thanks for posting them, all were interesting.

Invictus

Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the Pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.

In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.

Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds, and shall find, me unafraid.

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll.
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

William Ernest Henley


The "growth mindset" the young man talked about really holds true for many of us here, so that we can learn a new way to respond, we have to be able to shift our entire mindset as parents to learn to live on a new landscape and also learn how to find peace in spite of where our children presently are.

As the holidays have evolved in my world, I invited my daughter to Thanksgiving after talking to my granddaughter and her sister about it and asking how they would feel. Contrary to last year, they both were okay with it. I invited my daughter via Facebook, the way she and I converse now. She did not respond for a few days. Then she left me roses outside my back door 2 nights in a row. I sent her a message thanking her. She responded by saying she missed me and missed her daughter and wishes she had a relationship with both of us.

I thought about that for a few days. I responded by telling her that her daughter and myself had not gone anywhere, we have been right here, it was SHE who went away into a dark place. I said if she were willing to address the damage she did to her daughter, that it was likely her daughter would be responsive, however, it wasn't up to her daughter, it was up to HER. I said, a relationship with both of us was possible, but SHE would have to do something. Her usual way of looking at things is that she is a victim of us and someday we might miraculously be available to her. I made it clear that we are here, it's up to her.

I also told her who would be showing up for Thanksgiving and that everyone was bringing a dish to share and if she were coming, what would she like to bring. I have never asked her to participate in that way because she never has any money. But, this year, that didn't seem appropriate at all, she needs to give something like everyone else. I am holding her to a higher standard. She may not rise to it, but it is what feels right to me now. I have allowed her to be a victim by not expecting anything of her, and that's changed now.

She hasn't responded to my invitation which is normal behavior for her which rather then just accept it, I find it quite rude. I am imagining she will not show up and not respond. I plan on telling her I am assuming that she isn't coming and I will tell her that her lack of response is rude and unacceptable.

It feels appropriate to respond as I have. I feel better about it. I've accepted a lot of bad behavior from my daughter in the past, and I am not willing to do that now. Neither is her daughter. Because I am holding her more accountable, it remains to be seen whether she will show up or not but it feels "cleaner" and more honest this way.

When she told me she missed me, I told her that after two years of counseling and hard choices that I was now a different person and our relationship would need to change now. I said the old relationship is gone and we would have to forge a new one based on honoring each other, not on her latest dramas and difficulties. I made it very clear what my expectations are.

It feels as if this is a clear completion of the old way for me and a possibility for a new way. I've done my part, I've done all I can do. My daughter will either meet me on this new ground or she won't, I really have no idea how it will go. I believe her when she says she misses me, this last year my boundaries have been impenetrable and as a result she is outside of them and can't behave the way she was accustomed to behaving, I'm sure that's disconcerting for her, but it is also an opportunity for her to grow and heal, but only she can make that choice. It would be easier to stay the way she's been, but now she knows for sure that she will do that without me and without her daughter. It's all up to her and now we ALL know that. This all feels much better, clear, precise and without any loopholes.

 

[scent of cedar]

I am so proud and happy for you, Recovering Enabler.

Through your determination to do so, you really are accomplishing the impossible ~ you are changing yourself into your best self; into your strongest, healthiest self.

I celebrate that with you.

**************

Thank you for posting that poem in its entirety. I love the defiance in it, the absolute determination to retain the right to define the self, whatever is happening.

Another series of strange coincidences for us, Recovering.

***********************

Like you, I am finding my responses so changed as I have gone through this process that I had begun to pull back, had begun to question myself and my intentions. So strange, Recovering, that you should have posted just now as you did, using almost the same words I repeat to myself when, just lately, I've said or done something so completely out of character for me.

"It feels appropriate to respond as I have."
"I feel better about it."
"I've accepted alot of bad behavior from...(my sister, my mother, and one time, it was my husband I found myself responding to in such an unkind ~ and yet, undeniably honest ~ way) in the past, and I'm not willing to do that, now."
"...it feels "cleaner" and more honest, this way."

And you are right about the rudeness, too. I never seemed to see rudeness or power-over behavior for what it was, before.

I have been so surprised at myself that I was beginning to wonder whether this whole growth idea was a wrongness ~ whether I had been harboring someone nasty under all this niceness and now, couldn't seem to put her back, because she speaks with total conviction and I like it.

But in reading your post, I see health and strength and complete willingness to accept what is for what it is. So I know that, though I sometimes can't believe what comes out of my mouth these days...this change is good, not bad. And here's the thing: As I could see so clearly in your feelings and in your responses to your daughter, neither you nor I am doing anything hurtful. We are simply seeing what is without rationalizing.

I could see that for you, but not for myself.

Ah, sweet validation, Recovering.

Thank you.

It does feel a little uncomfortable. But all change is uncomfortable.

So I will go ahead and continue then, guilt free.

:O)

Cedar

 

[recoveringenabler]

It makes me happy that you are going through this new territory with me Cedar, how encouraging and liberating!! Yes, I have said things lately to others which depicts my lack of editing and my very straight shot at the truth. It is quite freeing isn't it?

About a month ago, SO and I were walking on a bike path in town which had bright yellow tape around parts of it letting you know, without a shadow of a doubt, that some of the path was newly asphalted so we had to walk along it on the grass. It was all clearly marked. This older dude coming towards us walks on the wet asphalt, disregarding all the warning signs, an act of remarkable unconscious, oblivious stupidity......as he was picking up his sticky sandals and plodding along, I said, "hey buddy, didn't you see the signs, the entire path is closed, you're walking on wet asphalt!" As soon as I blurted that out, it felt good............just to say what is without editing the truth or worrying about hurting that guys feelings, or if it were inappropriate or whatever, I was calling a spade a spade and that guy had crossed a boundary he should have seen and now I make that error obvious. It felt good. Someone else's unconscious behavior should not be allowed to negatively impact others or the environment without it being pointed out.

All of that is a result of probably just being older and more real, but a lot of that freedom came about within me because I learned via my daughter not to allow others to cross MY boundaries. And, it made me care more for myself and has given me more courage and strength to just be ME. I am enjoying this truth telling 'me' it has a certain 'glee' to it.

It works especially well with my granddaughter who as a teenager, has a 'job' to do in trying to manipulate or push to get her way ............and I am matching that now, not backing down or trying to empathize, or feeling sorry for.........I just don't allow it ...............I did that with my own daughter and allowed her, in essence to mistreat me. Not happening now. My boundaries are secure and that is a result of a much better sense of my own "worthiness and wholeheartedness" to use Brene Brown's words. My own self respect dictates these new responses, no one gets to cross those boundaries............

I think many probably respond in a freeing truthful way naturally, but as someone who had no role models, was shamed and not valued as a child, it takes a lot of changing, healing and learning to step up and just say what is. It's real and since it is happening all over my life, it is exhilarating at times because a more authentic response to others is often a valued and appreciated trait which can foster connection and intimacy........if that is the context.......... and in all connections it invites trust and safety.

I'd be interested in some stories of how this is changing in your life Cedar, or anyone who is or has experienced that newly greased freedom on the communication highway.

Yeah, absolutely, "continue on, GUILT free", enjoy it, have a good time with your new cool self!!! I am too.

 

[witzend]

Self talk is so important.

I sing Alto in a community choir, and this year we have a new director. It's been a challenge. A choir has to work - pardon the pun - in concert. You have 25 women and they are all saying "light". Just the "t" in light must be exactly the same from all 25 women. Just as every other sound and every other silence must be matched and/or mingled perfectly. And Alto's never sing the melody. The new director has been very hands off. We've had half as many rehearsals. We have had no rehearsal materials to work with so those of us who don't play an instrument have been on our own. We started this journey one week before I got that letter from my dad. My, oh, my - did my self talk become negative.

"I can't." "I don't understand." "I hate this song." "This is so schlocky." I even sent the music back after a couple of weeks. I couldn't get 4 bars into the music without telling myself that I couldn't. (Thanks, dad...) I sucked it up and got my music back, and still couldn't figure it out. I ordered part predominant recordings where I could find them and that helped. Then I found a computer program that takes snapshots of sheet music and plays it. I made recordings and posted them on Soundcloud. There were lots of us who were lost and I was getting 30 - 40 hits a day from people using it to rehearse. And I'm learning a lot, but I'm still saying "I hate this." "I'll never get it."

And that is when it dawned on me. I had to stop telling myself that I couldn't. It really doesn't matter if I hate some of the music or think that the rehearsal material isn't helpful. I enjoy other parts and it's not as if I am rolling in friends here. These are the people I know. I can do this and if I want to keep doing this I have to use positive self talk. So the last few days I have sat down with the problem pieces and said, "I'm going to figure this out." And don't you, I did. I also talked to the President of the Choir Board and made sure that I will be a part of the process in the Spring and that we will have rehearsal material. I really had to step up my game. And, I suppose that realistically between my L having her babies any day now and my dad dying so slowly that he'll have more opportunities to reach out and say/do something awful that I will have to ignore the negativity and move through it.

I know that I need to step up my self-talk game all the way around. I can say "I can't" or I can say "I can". More easily said than done, I know.

 

[recoveringenabler]

Witz, that's a great realization you had and even greater that you acted on it and changed your self talk.

I'm in the middle of reading The Gifts of Imperfection by Brene Brown and it addresses how that negative self talk is based in our shame/sense of not being "enough." She makes some good points and explains it and offers examples from her own life and solutions. It's a good read if you're interested. In fact, any of her books, or those TED talks she's done are also helpful, in my opinion.

I'm sorry your family is so unkind. By the way, have the nightmares subsided now?

 

[scent of cedar]

For starters Recovering...I seem to be hearing differently. There must have been a filter between what was said and what I heard, before. I think what I see is that I am hearing the inappropriateness in the patterns of interaction, most particularly as they occur in my family of origin. This changed perception has been happening for some time, now. The difference is that I am noting and ~ surprising myself no end just lately ~ saying, how what I see is different than what they say and how I feel about that pattern of behavior.

Example: (My sister. For the thousandth time.) We are coming to see you!

Usual Response: Oh, that's great! We will do thus and so and thus and so. I am so happy you can come!

Current Response: That's not true. No, it isn't that you aren't welcome. It is just that there was a time when I believed you and anticipated your visit. Now, I understand you will not be coming and I wonder why you say you are.

In that it was a change in our normal pattern, my reply left my sister floundering. Even as I heard myself say it, I knew it wasn't very nice. I was discussing what happened with husband. (That's how big a deal it seemed like at the time.) It was like, what's the matter with me, to say something like that? I wanted to feel guilty, sorry, something ~ and I absolutely did not. It was such a change for me. Thinking about it later, I told myself those same phrases you used, Recovering. I just don't know what's gotten into me. The observation was an honest one. I don't feel like continuing old patterns, where actions speak so clearly of dysfunction and words are used to pretend what is, is something else.

As I become healthier, the cost versus benefit ratio is changing.

It is similar to the story you told about speaking up to the man walking all over the fresh asphalt. It was nothing that HAD to be said...it's just that the behavior was offensive and so, you commented on it, rather than not.

****

I have been working on this thread as an exercise in going deeper into my own healing/clarification. Still, I wanted to post something before everyone forgot what we were talking about.

:O)

The gist of what I've been trying to say has to do with loyalty...with the decision, made as children, to define ourselves and our lives through protecting those we could not protect when we were younger. With why that happened and how we did that. To cherish and protect them now, as adults, means we take responsibility for the relationship, preserving it at all costs. Not so much for the other guy, but for the sake of the quest, which has something to do with assigning meaning to the emotional and psychological destruction that is the aftermath of abuse. The problem is, each sibling carries the same dysfunction in a different pocket. One way or another, the dysfunction created at the hands of the abuser continues to be the most important part of the relationship.

Maybe I want to stop dancing.

That is why I say healing results in hearing differently. I am not clear yet on what I mean, but there is something here to be unraveled and found, I think.

**************

Witz, you are absolutely right about self-talk. The question then becomes: what were the motives of the parent who devised the filter through which we name ourselves, now? Valid, or part of the same, broken mentality that caused the damage in the first place? As we figure that part out, our self-talk changes.

And our lives become very different things, filled with light and clarity and song.

And just like Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz, we realize we were the ones in charge, all along. Maybe, before we can give ourselves permission to choose a different version of real than our abusive parents allowed, we have to really see the messed up power dynamic the abusive individual was struggling with, how pointless and wrong it was, to act that out on a child.

Cedar

 

[scent of cedar]

Here is another interesting thing that has been happening, just lately.

I have waist-length red hair going absolutely grey. It is curly and frizzy and forever uncontrollable. Lately ~ not just within the past month or so, but within the past year or so, I have stopped setting and spraying and bemoaning my hair. I have been sort of letting it be. While this was freeing, my self-talk involved things like: "Oh, whatever. I just have bad hair. At least it's neat." (This is when I first began braiding it in a bun at the back of my head.) So, here is the interesting thing: I have been relaxing on the whole hair thing over the past months. A little less control, a little more acceptance. I never really connected it to what was going on with me, psychologically or emotionally. Two days ago, I washed it and did not straighten it. I let it air dry. This is something I have not done since...well, I don't know. Since I was 12 or 13, I suppose. So, it is way less frizzy, but way, way more uncontrollable. You can't even imagine! I have like, hair everywhere. But here is the interesting part. As crummy as I have felt, reliving the abuse thing...I caught an unexpected glimpse of my frizzy, out of control, red to greying, greying, gone hair this morning...and found myself approving. Just a flash of approval. That NEVER happens. Whenever I catch an unexpected glimpse of myself, I am so busy judging what is wrong that I become embarrassed.

Seriously.

So, there is something happening here that has to do, not only with not condemning myself for my appearance, but actually, with accepting and getting a kick out of it.

It's a major change.

My hair was one of my mother's primary targets.

Cedar

In rereading this, I wondered what that red hair meant to my mother. There is such superstition surrounding the red-headed child, the red-headed woman.

************

Witz, I would love to hear you, singing! I did not know you were someone who lives her voice, someone who takes such joy in song. They say we define ourselves most clearly through the things we love. You met and overcame a huge challenge through your love of song, Witz.

Happy this happened for you ~ really, so happy this happened, and that you shared it with us.

:O)

 

[witzend]

RE - The dreams are becoming a bit vivid and weird again, but I haven't been as good as I should be about taking my medication late enough in the morning. I have a batch of pills that I take daily, and they make me sick to my stomach if I take them without food and I never have been a breakfast person. I really need to put the Buproprion on my nightstand and just take it with water in the morning. Old habits die hard. This should be an easy one to break, and I'm going to go move the pills as soon as I'm done typing. I used to always take my BC pills in the morning that way.

I am anxious because I know that L will have her babies soon, and I feel as though someone will call me or email me or contact me on FB and say, "So what's it like to be a grandma?" or some other such nonsense when everyone knows it's nothing more than biological. Like you, Barbara, I feel a strong need to not do the same dance, while at the same time not falling into their game. People who push these things are so rude and so unclever. If I say something noncommittal like "I don't feel old enough to be a grandma" or some variation of that, there are people who will push. Someone will come back with "No! I mean, what's it like? Are you going to see them? Did you hear from L? Are you going back home?" I need to practice my best Dear Abbey reply, "Why do you feel you need to know about that?" or "That's personal and husband and I have it covered."

I have been having vivid dreams about this, but nothing crazy scary like before. Just not good dreams. Actually, I need to put into practice something altogether different (and difficult) for now, which is not anticipate the nastiness. Still, I don't feel as though I should bury my head in the sand as to whether those comments will come, either about L's babies or my dad's passing, when it comes. They'll come. I need to find some sort of peace with the fact that someone will do something hurtful and stupid and that is about them so I shouldn't react. What I really need to do stop wasting time on this now. As the old saying goes, "Trouble waits for everyone. There's no reason to rush to meet it."

I also took the time to start watching the TED talks the other night. I have them on Netflix and didn't get around to actually watching any of them before. I hadn't realized that they were so short. I can only tolerate "self-help" in small doses. It's much more easily digestible that way. I'll be looking at them more often.

 

[scent of cedar]

Witz...part of what's happened as I've gone through this has to do with acknowledging how vulnerable the things that hurt me make me feel. The deeper I go to confront those old lessons, the more fraudulent I feel about challenging them. It's an act of faith, an act of courage really, to continue. But every time I do continue, the result is the reclamation of my real self and a changed vision of what it is that matters.

I don't know everything about what happened to you, Witz? But I think you've told us enough that I am pretty sure you have been savaged by a master at it. Those are the emotions being called when someone asks about the upcoming grandmahood. Your courage in being able to stand up and face it at all is astounding.

Every time you do though, you get a little more of yourself back, Witz.

If you figure out a one sentence, pared down version of what you really feel, that might be a better thing to try. Something about family conflict and not being sure how you feel, maybe. You might even add how much it would mean to you to be able to celebrate what everyone else so takes for granted, and how fortunate the person asking you about it is to have what she has, in her life.

Or maybe, journal about finding that one sentence you will use, when people, innocently sharing what is meant to be something joyful and right, toss you straight into the horror of what has happened, of what is still happening, to you.

It isn't something to make light of, Witz. Dear Abby could never come up with an adequate response to the hellish reality of what has happened, of what is still happening, to you.

There are no words for it, Witz.

But if you can find the words that will show you who and how you want to be as you go through this, that will be a beginning. Healing will follow. You know what they say: Fake it 'til you make it. The plan is to limit the ongoing damage.

You've been savaged by a master, Witz. It's going to take every bit of your courage to reclaim yourself. But here is the thing: What happened to you is wrong. Worse than that, as abuse invariably is, what happened to you had no point. The only reward the abuser got, the only thing he won for the cost of your life, was THAT he won.

In time, as you heal, you will see that so clearly, Witz.

I am amazed, every day, by the difference in the way I understand the why behind what my mother did. And though it was bought and paid for through my pain? It was nothing personal, Witz. She would have done the same to any child or adult who could not fight her back.

I see her do it to this day.

It is always that way, with any abuser, male or female, adult or child. Your abuser never even saw you, Witz. He destroyed you because he could.

Evil does exist, Witz ~ and you've battled it all your life.

When your father dies, that will simply be the end of the story. He seems not to have learned anything. The letter you shared with us told me nothing about you, and everything about him. For one thing, that he remained trapped in his sickness. What a coward he must be, never to have grown beyond whatever happened to him. What a coward, to have taken it out on a child, instead. And really, how patently ridiculous is it to send a letter like that to another adult?

Unless, of course, you are so trapped in keeping your daughter a victim, so determined that she will never get away from you, that you cannot see beyond your own self aggrandizement. Like the man behind the curtain in the Wizard of Oz.

Nothing there.

A sick and defeated man, getting ready to die and spewing poison with his final breaths.

Dirty old bugger.

Cedar

 

[witzend]

Thanks, Cedar. I'm going to ruminate on something more appropriate than "Why do you need to know?" I have to say, I loved Dear Abbey. I read her every day and her answers were so different from anything I experienced in my home. So simple and reasonable.

I do think that I have been manipulated by - at least - two masters in my life. My dad and then L's father. Of course L feels that this is an appropriate way to treat me and anyone who doesn't give in to her as well. I've come to realize that there is just no way to stop their games other than to make myself unavailable to them. I do wish it were different, but it's not. Like you say, what they do is hurtful. I know it's not about anything I have done, and it doesn't make it any less hurtful. To pretend that I can make it not bother me would be like pretending that it's the stove's fault when I burn myself, therefore the burn doesn't hurt.

I think that the part that bothers me the most about the children being born and my father dying is that I know that they are coming, just not when. At some point I am going to be informed by someone outside my current circle of friends and family, and that someone will be someone whom I don't really have a relationship with anymore. It will be intrusive.

 

[recoveringenabler]

Two adages popped into my mind upon reading your post Cedar, 1. The truth shall set you free and 2. You're only as sick as your secrets.

Another helpful note for me is that as Brene Brown says, shame lives in the dark, once we start telling our "stories" and telling our truth, we become "shame resilient" and healthier, happier and freer to be ourselves.

We hold the secrets of our parents cruelties and when we stop keeping that inside and bring it out to the light, my belief and my experience says, we get healed.

If you stop "dancing" then the practiced steps you and your sister, or anyone in your family will be floundering because they are doing the old cha cha and you are doing the tango (with that beautiful long red hair flowing!!). Smile.

I think healing results in not only hearing differently, but seeing, speaking, knowing, understanding, and perceiving differently. I have almost no relationship with my 4 siblings because as I have gotten healthier, I have popped out of that 'reality by agreement' that my whole family lived/lives within.................and in popping out I can see it way differently and they just can't because they are steeped in that reality, in fact, buried in it.

Your current response to your sister, Cedar, was a straight shot of truth, it didn't sound mean or unkind, it was just the truth. Telling the truth in those early environments seems weird because you break the spell induced by our parents to have their reality be truth............but it isn't truth and once we know it, we are out. I think when we first start really saying the truth without our usual editing, those around us who are used to us 'making nice' are perhaps offended, but we didn't do anything wrong. Unless you were waving a butcher knife and screaming while you were saying that, it sounded perfectly fine to me. Don't feel any guilt about your truth Cedar, just let it rip!

I have come to a certain neutrality and forgiveness where my parents are concerned, I realized awhile back that they were treated in much the same way they treated us, wounded children raising wounded children. Does that make it right? Of course not. My shift came about after I was quite angry at my mother and asking her how she could do this one particular rather cruel act to me when I was 5 years old. She was crying and said, "that's what my mother did to me." That moment stopped me dead in my tracks, I hadn't known that part and I just felt so much empathy for her, for me, for my grandmother, for all of us. That changed a lot for me. I felt that my destiny was to stop that kind of abuse and I have, but I had to spend 100 years healing from the first 10 years of my childhood. And, also, I had been confronting my mother and in therapy for many years, so this interaction was years in the making.

I love your red hair story Cedar. That is a HUGE HUGE step I believe. For some of us, self love comes late, but geez, that it shows up at all is a big gift. Good for you!

Witz, I think in looking at the big picture somewhat differently,as it appears you are now doing, your response to the comments coming at you may surprise you, as with Cedar and I and our mission of truth lately..............don't allow others perceptions to wound you..........we had no authority as kids, we had no barrier to abuse or neglect or hurt, but we do now...........I have also found that as I feel better within me, the external 'stuff' that used to hurt me, just doesn't show up much anymore. I think we send out a different energy, that child within us sends out a strong signal to the bully that we are defenseless.................perhaps letting that child within know that you will protect her, to soothe her..........that inner child work is pretty powerful stuff......it's helped me a lot......I don't know I might have a pat answer to invasive questions or just unconscious inquiries like "thanks for asking, we're workin' it all out.......how are you doin'?"....................my standard response to inquiries about my daughter was "she's still struggling." Remarkably, no one went any further in their interest after that. It was a perfect response for me. Perhaps you might say that, "we're still struggling." And leave it at that. I can so empathize with waiting for your daughter to have the babies and your Dad to die..............yikes, that's a lot to deal with. Wrap yourself up in a bubble of protective light and don't allow negative energy in........... there's my California hit for you!

 

[scent of cedar]

Witz, I don't know how you could prepare for what is coming. But I do know that you can claim the right to time. When those words are spoken, and someone tells you the babies have been born or your father has died, you can give yourself the gift of time. Whatever it is that the person says Witz, promise yourself that you will react as though you knew it was coming in just the way it does come. Maybe, say something simple like, "I was expecting this news. Thank you."

Again, the purpose is to limit further damage.

That is the only purpose.

There is no way to make this situation good. So, it becomes about making it survivable.

I would be worried sick about it if I were you too, Witz.

I am so sorry this is happening to you.

Cedar

P.S. Sometimes, it helps to know that, once the bad thing has happened, you will be able to tell someone. We are right here, Witz. It sounds silly to say it, but everything will be alright.

Everything will be alright ~ whatever it is, however it comes, you will handle it gracefully.

And we will be right here Witz, when you are ready to process it.