6 year old son keeps getting kicked out of school

[kim75062]

Well he had 2 ok weeks at the new school. He wasn't perfectly behaved but he was MUCH better then he was at the old school. I went to the "expert" psychiatrist who had an intern or resident student or whatever they are called. The resident was who seen my son and spent all the time evaluating him. They decided that the ability wasn't doing anything, there reasoning was it was to low of a dose and to soon to have seen any changes. They are convinced the anxiety was from the old school and he did not need to be on the ability. They then convinced me that adderal would help calm him down and help him concentrate in class. I told them about the concerta and how horrible that was but they insisted that though in the same class they are not the same drug and it would work differently etc. Which does make sense. so they said give him a 5 mg pill in the am right before school and see how it goes.

Friday was fine, the teacher noticed much better concentration in the AM and only a few smaller issues into the afternoon.
sat and Sunday I gave him the adderal and did not notice any effect, but at home on a weekend theres not much to concentrate on and no real reason to have to sit still for long periods of time.

Monday (3 days off the abilify that has a 3 day half life) he was impossible in his classroom. Running out of the room, trying to escape the building, yelling NO to everyone. Refused to do any work and then threw a chair across his classroom. Luckily not hitting anyone. So I got me first phone call to come get him from that school. Also it has been raining since Sunday here and no outside recess, and the 2 weeks transition period was up Friday so no para. Im sure it was a combination of all these things that set him up for a bad day.

I called the psy and told the secretary what was going on and to have the doctor call me back ASAP or let her know if I can restart the abilify now that he has aderall in his system. that was at 11am yesterday, still no call back.

 

[BusynMember]

Going to an intern and resident student with his handy dandy prescription pad at his side in my opinion is not the way to go at all. As you see not only did they take him off smedthatheloed, but placed a very reactive, hypwrnervous little boy on Adderrall whuch is very abused by teensgers because its very good speed and causes anxiety, more hyperness, and even worse craziness.

I still think you should take go to a private Neuro Psychologist. They do intensive testing in all categories of function. They test 6-10 hours. If you don't see a better diagnostician than the one your son has seen so far. The poor little guy is a guinea pig for medicines yet nobody even really knows what is wrong with him.

I truly wish you the best. I feel for you and our dear little one.

 

[BusynMember]

I'm sorry that my phone spelled things so wrong.

I think the problem is your son, not the school. He needs a serious work up, not just some psychiatric medication student. Again, I'd try a Neuro psychologist. Adderal is seriously often very horrible and very abused by teens. They are looking at ADHD. in my opinion, and I am no expert, it sounds like more than that.

Sorry for the poorly spelled other post.

 

[susiestar]

As I understand things, she is on waiting lists for evaluations everywhere she can be, and has been able to move up some appointments through sheer persistence, aka calling every few days for cancellations.

Stimulants have problems, but they are not the enemy. Like every other medication, they are not for everyone. At least with stimulants, they are in and out of the body faster than most medications. I would be far more comfortable trialing a stimulant than I would be a medication like abilify. I was far more comfortable trialing stims than I was trialing risperidone, and it was also a very good thing for Wiz for quite some time. Each child is different, and so is each situation. Demonizing a medication class is just not ever the answer, and any medication can be abused.

Kim, I am so sorry he is past the 'honeymoon' period with the new school. Clearly he needs help, but this school is a good place and seems FAR more equipped to help him than the other one was. I agree that you likely need more in depth help, and evaluation, but that only happens over time. Make changes slowly, keep good records, and work on a Parent Report. It truly will be a powerful tool to help keep everything straight and keep all of the information organized. You can find out more from the link in my signature.

 

[kim75062]

With the adderal being a complete failure I didn't give it to him again. I also started the abilify again after making sure it was safe after taking the adderal on Monday with talking to the pediatrician. The psy office called back today and said the doctor wants me to give Him adderal 3 times a day so he don't get the withdrawal effect. Really? They think More of a drug will fix the negative effect from that same drug? Not something I'm willing to try. On the plus side yesterday and today his back to his typical misbehaved self.

 

[BusynMember]

If the child main problem is not AD H D then stimulants will act like speed. At least it did not work for my son at all. Every stimulant just made it worse. So did Prozac.

It is important to get a correct diagnosis before medicating or else that can make things worse. I threw the Adderral and Prozac down the toilet. At this time, like you, we were getting different diagnosis from various professionals. It's not a fun time


Patience please. Some professional will figure your son out right and things will turn around. Yes, patience was hard. Call the office of future evaluators of which you are on a waiting list and ask If you can please go on your cancellation list.

And listen to Susie too. We have slightly different messages, but she is a wise and battle weary warrior mom.what she tells you is very important.

Take from both of us what resonates. We both care deeply for your son and nobody is kinder than Susie Star.

Much love to you and if you do prayer, do try prayers to help you. If not, trust that things usually improve when moms try as hard as you are. You arr a hero for your son who never quits. Kudos.
,

 

[kim75062]

The problem with diagnosis mental illness is you can't see it. There are obvious symptoms and traits to each one but they overlap. I have gotten several expert options at this point and none of them seem to be on the same page. As far as medication goes, the only way to know if they will help is to try them. If the possible benifits outweigh the risks then it only makes sense to try. Usually stimulants are the first drug tried for ADHD. If they have a calming effect then you know the ADHD diagnosis is correct. It will obviously not "cure" it but is a very useful treatment tool. Same with antipsychotics, if the mood swings stabilize you then know it's a mood disorder. There are no blood tests or results that can be printed in pure black and white. Everything is left up to interpretation. And with all these experts not a single one has interpreted them the same. The student doctor I saw is and was working under a neuro psychiatrist.
I have 2 more "expert" appointments coming up after the new year. I guess after all options are gathered we can tally up the votes for the most diagnosis that they agree on.

 

[susiestar]

This is one reason why I urge you to do a Parent Report. Diagnosing our difficult kids and their problems truly is as much of an art as a science and it takes the right combination of testing and doctors/experts/parents/child/teachers to get it as 'right' as possible. In my opinion, the Parent Report makes the odds of getting it "right" a whole lot higher. It helps you keep the information organized and at your fingertips during appointments and meetings, and it helps you answer questions and ask questions. I drove one neurologist absolutely crazy by giving several moms in the waiting room copies of the basic outline (without any identifying info, just the outline) when they asked about my big binder of info and what it was all about. He wasn't my favorite neurologist for my daughter by any means, mostly because he got annoyed when I wouldn't agree to repeat medications we had already trialed with no positive results. I also annoyed him by insisting he read the Parent Report and he didn't want to, but I can be hard to resist when it comes to things that I feel are important for my children.

Neuropsychiatrists really can help, esp if you can get them to do testing. You also can get testing done via Children's Hospitals. The thread on the Parent Report mentions a multi disciplinary evaluation, which is having a bunch of different experts do testing, which is what we did.

I think you have a good chance of finding real help if you continue being as persistent as you have been. I do urge you to continue to educate yourself about special education law and your son's rights. I think you are doing a wonderful job of following your instincts and doing all that you possibly can with the resources that you can find for him. The school you managed to transfer him into sounds truly amazing.

I know it is discouraging that he is having problems after his first 2 wonderful weeks. But it is incredibly common to 'honeymoon', or have a period of good behavior that is then followed by having the problems resurface again in the new environment. Having your son's problems come out is actually a good thing because he cannot be helped if they cannot see the problems.

I fully agree with NOT giving your son more of a medication that created problems. I do NOT understand the reasoning (or lack of reasoning) behind prescribing more of it when the initial amount caused such problems. I have had doctors try such reasoning on both my children and myself and it didn't make any more sense then as it does now. So I hope the doctors have more logical ideas for you in the future. Keep following your instincts and logic because you are your child's best advocate! You are doing a wonderful job.

 

[kim75062]

We went back to the neuro psy yesterday, I refused to see the resident and ended up waiting almost an hour to see the actual doctor. But I think it was worth the wait.

I can not tell you how close I was to leaving because of the other horribly behaved kids in the waiting room. Mine is currently grounded for being suspended again for not keeping his little hands to himself (hit the para). He is not allowed to have any electronics right now or play with friends. Hes pretty much down to legos and books at this point. I feel for other parents with kids that have these issues now more then I did years ago, but seriously don't bring all 4 of your kids to the doctors appointment for the one that has horrible behavior problems. I could not imagine having to deal with a infant, toddlers and out of control 6 or 7 year old literally climbing the walls and breaking the bookshelves while doing it. How exactly are you going to be able to have any type of a real conversation with the doctor? There was at least 4 families there which consisted of one caregiver and a handful of children each. The one mother shocked even the receptionist, her child was literally running wild and all she did was play on her phone while bouncing a baby on her knee. When they called her child's name she got up and handed the baby to her other child that was maybe 7 years old and took the out of control one back. Who does that? how can you leave an small child to care for a baby in a place full of strangers that are most likely mentally ill! The waiting area is shared with adult mental health, for the most part the grown up patients are on one side and the kids gravitate towards the toys on the other but still.

Anyway she agreed that stimulants are obviously not the answer for him right now. Though they do show a temporary improvement (about an hour) so that does mean something. She increased the abilify and wants to try strattera. I told her im not sure on any more/new medications because of the reactions hes had the past few weeks. she gave me a paper script and just said fill it when and if I feel comfortable with the idea. She was not impressed with the residents decision to continue the adderall after I told her what went on with it. apperantly they never gave the doctor the message, only the student when I called in. She was also pretty angry about the stopping abilify if it was working. She was under the impression that I wanted to find an alternative to it because of the cost ($600 a month) and my ins refuses to pay for it. She did refer him for therapy and counseling services, shes not sure what a counsler will be able to help with but its definitely not going to hurt him any. The behavior therapists have long waiting lists but at least hes on one now.

 

[Malika]

Hi Kim. Kids do well if they can. Is suspending or grounding your son going to teach him the skills he needs to deal with frustration, anger and other emotions other than by lashing out? If so, I would be interested to hear how... I am not saying such behaviour is "right" or should not have consequences - but unfortunately our kids are differently wired (or rather their brains are) and they are woefully lacking in the skills that neurotypical kids take for granted. They really do need help not punishment if they are to catch up with their peers in any way. I don't really see it as an ideological question but really very much a practical and pragmatic one. Punishments won't do a thing to help, in my humble opinion.

 

[kim75062]

Suspending him is absolutely not going to help him in anyway, but the school needs that time to regroup and come up with other solutions because obviously what they are doing is not working. Had they said bring him back tomorrow with the same interventions in place he may of had a good day or he may have decided to punch the child next to him instead of a staff member. We don't know and until we figure that out I agreed with the principal that he was a danger to other children and should not be allowed back into the classroom that soon.

As far as consequences vs punishment goes he has to learn that his actions have consequences whether good or bad. The natural consequences to hitting someone is to not be allowed around others. As far as taking away his electronics, he is home from school by his own bad choice. When asked why he did what he did he will say "because I was so angry". When asked why he was angry the answer is always "I don't know". That does sound like he was reacting on emotions he can not control and I believe that he simply does not have the skills to deal with these feelings like typical children. But he is far from helpless. He was one on one with a para professional, he knows when he is starting to get angry because he can and has said it before the aggressive outbursts in the past. He can tell the teacher or para and they will take him out of the room so he can de-stress etc. all he has to do is say it. If he cant seem to say it he has cards in his desk that he can put up with a angry face. they will then ask him if he needs a break. He has stress toys etc. in his reach at all times, if he goes to use on the staff will know that they need to ask him if he needs a break. And if he cant speak, put up a card, or get a toy out He has a cool down area out of sight of the other kids 5 feet from his desk behind a wall he can go to on his own. He has used all of these in the past and they have helped to deescalate the situation. He made the choice to try to run out of the room, he choose to hit the para, then choose to hit him again in the face. While he should be in school learning he will not have access to TV, video games etc. That will only reinforce that being home is much more fun then being in class where he belongs.

 

[kim75062]

If anyone has suggestions on how to deal with his extreme behaviors i would love to hear them. Because at this point I think I've tried every parenting strategy out there at some point and none have had long term effect. From constant positive praise (which he hates) to charts, to ignoring, and even bribing.

 

[BusynMember]

He probably can't control his behavior. Until you have a better idea what is wrong probably no parenting strategy will work.

 

[Malika]

It seems unlikely that he is really "choosing" to do any of these things. I speak from the experience of having a son who has impulsive outbursts, sometimes physical, and then five minutes (or even one minute) later is often distraught at his behaviour and deeply apologetic. He knows the consequences of his behaviour - he has lived through multiple rejections, loss of friendships, adult judgements, school exclusions, etc, etc. Knowing this does not enable him to control impulses that he is neurologically unable to control. It is extremely frustrating and saddening for all concerned. Understanding him and supporting him helps more than punishing and criticising. Again, I am just stating the obvious (I feel).

 

[BusynMember]

Just because he knows when he is losing control doesn't mean he can stop it on his own. I wouldn't give him consequences. He can not do better or he would. I also think your son has more going on than ADHD. He is very diffetent from almost all six year old and probably needs services beyond medication. To me he sounds like a kid with no self control at all who can not stop to think about choices before he possibly freaks out and runs.

Blaming him will not and has not helped him. I wouldnt. I'm sure he feels badly enough about his differences.

 

[kim75062]

if he truly cannot control himself how does he manage it at home? Or at the stores or other public places? He's able to control himself in all settings he's been in except school.

I have a meeting with the school after thanksgiving and I really doubt they will take me seriously if I tell them next time he punches a staff member in the face don't punish him, he didn't mean to do it.

How will he ever learn to control himself if there's no consequences for his actions? He is 6 now but in a few short years the consequences are going to get him a probation officer. I truly am at a loss with him and his behavior at school at this point.

 

[HMBgal]

It seems unlikely that he is really "choosing" to do any of these things. I speak from the experience of having a son who has impulsive outbursts, sometimes physical, and then five minutes (or even one minute) later is often distraught at his behaviour and deeply apologetic. He knows the consequences of his behaviour - he has lived through multiple rejections, loss of friendships, adult judgements, school exclusions, etc, etc. Knowing this does not enable him to control impulses that he is neurologically unable to control. It is extremely frustrating and saddening for all concerned. Understanding him and supporting him helps more than punishing and criticising. Again, I am just stating the obvious (I feel).

Good heavens. I just lived through an epic meltdown like this tonight. It's so awful. He is in a pretty great school at least, and the latest IEP and behavior plan are pretty good. The principal is amazing, too. But, dear grandson almost seems to cycle: a few good weeks (relatively speaking), then a week like this one. My husband lost it on him and scared us both. He's a patient man, but being told "screw you" and "f-off" isn't going to cut it. Grandson screamed at his teacher, calling her a liar, crying in class--talk about social suicide. And he knows, yet he can't stop himself. It's so sad. Grandson is feeling the social consequences, parents won't let their kids play with him, and the constant rejection and yet he always blames everyone else for his problems. It breaks my heart.

 

[BusynMember]

School is not as calm at home. He is with you at the store. If he could control it, he would.

Hey, it's up to you. You're the one who has to live with your choices regarding this little boy. You WILL find out something is wrong with him that is out of his hands. Then you have to tell yourself, "I did all I could." I totally think Malila is right here, but he is your child.bi hope you make good choices.

Wishing you good luck and success. I have an autistic son and I had to help him a lot and overlook a lot when he was young and fight for his rights. He is doing so incredibly well now although he wasn't punished for things he could not control. He had interventions and has control now.

I pass along my advice for you to take or leave. I'll admit he was nowhere near the level of your sons behavior. But had he been, we would have focused less on his current behavior and mostly on getting professional help so he could have a better future. And we did that. And it worked. He even likes himself!

Sorry your child is difficult. I do not believe he is "bad" or defiant on purpose. Good luck.

 

[kim75062]

I do truly appreciate all the help and advice. Its wonderful to be in a place where people are or have been where your standing. I do take ALL of it in and try to implement what I think applies best to my own situation.
I know my son is not a evil spirited monster child that enjoys hurting other people. I know he is obviously "different". I want to believe all the obnoxious things he does is because he can't help it. I'm sure most of the things he does is because he can't help it. But I want to make sure that he truly can't help and is not just choosing the easier path of losing control of himself. I don't want him learn that when life gets hard you just give up and let whatever feeling you have take over. No amount of medication or therapy is going to cure him, and he needs to be prepared for hard road ahead of him. While hes still little I can protect him. In a few years hes going to have to be accountable for his own actions. He needs to learn to handle himself before it to late and hes going to have a much harder time doing that then most kids his age. I really don't think NOT implementing consequences for his actions is the way to do that.
He has learned that "if I pick up a chair like I'm going to throw it, I get to leave class". or "If I run off I get to go with the counsler". and "if i hit someone they call mom and I go home". All these things are his way of getting out of a situation that he does not like or feel comfortable in. The school is doing a great job at trying to make him feel comfortable there and really theres not much else they can do in the way of discipline.

On another note- 4 days back on abilify at the increased dose and hes begging me to help him clean his room so he can have his computer back Normally he would of been flopping on the ground like a dying fish because its "to hard, to much, or he was sick".

 

[kim75062]

Update: this last week the kids have been off school and he has been great at home. Happier and more helpful then usual.

Yesterday at school was an ok day. He tried to run a few times but nothing major.

Today his teacher was out for the morning so his was with a para in the ISS room because it wasn't being used. He did fine there for the morning. The teacher came in and took his class shortly before lunch, he ran out once but rejoined the class shortly with no problems. At lunch he hit another boy for what the school says is no reason. Which could be true, he is unpredictable with moods etc. his side of the story is "the other boy was prentending to be asleep, and he hit him in the face softy to make sure he wasn't dead. And he was only playing not being mean". Which could also be true. Either way he's suspended for 3 days again and the school handed me an ard meeting notice for change of placement to an alternative placement school for children with behavior problems.
I really think if it had been any other child they would not have been suspended. And I really don't think that's an appropriate placement for him. He will be the target of all the other bigger and older kids.