Advise Please From Wise Parents

Albatross

Well-Known Member
Albie:
Just caught up with this post. Wow that was a powerful interaction between the two of you.

Have you heard anything since?
I think it was a moment that we both needed. I try to remember it.

Thank you for asking about him, RN. He is in a shelter out west. We have spoken a few times. He started out with high optimism about the great support he is getting and talked about volunteering for them, once he gets on his feet. He did the legwork first, then nicely asked if we could please help out with getting his ID and social security card, which we did.

Unfortunately, in the space of a week he has swung back to a dark and hopeless state. Today he was picking arguments with me because I was trying to challenge his worldview. I stopped right in the middle of my furious and righteous response and thought, "What am I doing?! This is one I CANNOT WIN." So I backed off and made some general "mom" type words of encouragement, ending on a nice (but bland) note, then turned off my phone.

I am really trying to detach LOVINGLY. It's so hard to do sometimes. It's so hard not to get caught up in the storm, either during or afterward.
 

RN0441

100% better than I was but not at 100% yet
Albie

Thank you so much for your honesty in dealing with all of this. It helps me to know that even though you've been doing this for some time, you still aren't sure sometimes what is best.

I am having a hard time walking the tight rope. I am almost an all or nothing type with this whole detachment thing. I am a very deep loving, compassionate person so it is hard for me to do this.

I really know me knowing how he "thinks" is not a good thing. I do not like how he thinks.

How long have you been doing this with your son Albie?
 

Echolette

Well-Known Member
I have spent the entire day feeling guilty, worthless and filled with profound regret that I didn't tell you I loved you before you blocked us on FB.

Regreat that you might be dead, or that I would never speak to you again and you wouldn't know I love you.

Most days, as the day goes on, I move from regret and worthlessness to anger, but my first thought, every morning, is you. My thoughts even before I wake up are of you.

Are you all right? Where are you sleeping? Are you warm? Are you hungry? Are you safe?

What do you think of when you first wake up in the morning?

When is the last time you thought of us at all, once we told you we wouldn't send you money? Once you told me I was evil? Once you told me we would never know if you lived or died?

Do you regret that?

Do you regret telling your sister to consider you dead?

Do you feel wronged by us, or do you just not think of us at all?

Alb, I had to quote the whole post because there wasn't a button to express how your post made me feel. This is beautiful...so very very pure, so very true. It seems as though it is just floated out there into the universe...not a question, not an answer, not a comment...just a mom's heart in pain. Your questions are so real, so valid. We have all had them. This is a very pure version of a mother's heart.

He said, "It's funny, but when I'm out here...I can't talk freely because there are a couple of other guys here...but when I'm out here I'm not...I can't do that, not as much. I don't know where my next meal's coming from, I don't know where I'm going to sleep, but God's good to me when my life is like this, Mom. I need to live like this. I don't know why, but I do."

I love love love that he trusted you with this. This seems huge to me. He knows what he needs right now. It doesn't mean he will need this forever, or maybe he will, but he can see himself clearly right now, in this moment, and he understands what he needs. And he trusted you enough to share that with you. And you love him enough to hear him.

Then he said, "Don't worry about me, Mom. I'm fine. I'm where I want to be. This is where I'm happy." I was pretty choked up and said, "Thank you for telling me that." He said, "I love you guys," I said, "We love you too," and that was it.

This was very generous of him, and very real. How amazing that you got to share that moment. We don't always get that moment of purity, of shared love, even with our less difficult kids (lol note I said LESS difficult, as far as I know none of them are easy!). You will always have that moment. Hold it close. Fix it in your mind and heart. You had a beautiful moment with your son, as sad and poignant as it might be.

What I mean by this is that this is the space of deep pain which can be transcended into acceptance. The way I see it is that the illusion of happily every after with most of our Difficult Child's may not ever exist. But what does and is real are the times of love shared. Those are just ever bit as real as the moments of anger or sheer terror.

Yes, this is what I feel as well. Those moments of love, like the one Alb just had, are just as legitimate, just as much a part of the story. It is not all bad and sad.

Transcending deep pain into acceptance...I went to a week long silent retreat a few years ago (that was an amazing event, I'm still not sure how I pulled that off). Thich Nhat Hahn was the host, and he spoke every day...the theme was suffering well. He said that if you learn to suffer well you suffer less. Part of the the message was to stop fighting suffering stop pushing it away..that just makes it fight harder, try harder take you down longer. If you let suffering roll through you, roll with you, and follow it, stay with it...you can come out the other side, transcend it as you said, stronger, better. Accepting. Whole.

Actually as I reread this you could replace "suffering" with "Difficult Child". If you stop fighting Difficult Child, stop pushing them, stop making them fight harder and try harder to take you down...if you roll with them, stay with them where they are, we might all come out the other side.

How is that for optimistic lol???


It even felt as if he was letting me off the hook,

Yes, Alb, my friend. I think he was letting you off the hook. My son did that with me. It is very very sad, and yet right. It feels right. I am so glad he could do that for you. I bet he meant it too.

I can't stand the person I've become. I want to be different, to do it differently somehow, but I don't know how.

I know this feeling well..but I am so surprised to see it in your post, Alb! I love the person you are becoming! You are leading the examined life. You are aspiring. You are considering, reflecting, feeling. You are a work in progress. The examined life.

I also think letting go comes in waves and that layers are peeled away and I always feel worse as I'm adjusting to a deeper knowledge.

My sister, who really served to a great extent as my mother, told me once (in reference to marriage, but it applies here too) that the gates to greater intimacy are guarded by dragons, and that we have to do battle with them to get through to the next, deeper, calmer, better spot. I have found that to be true, both in my important relationships, and also in my relationship to myself, as I learn to see myself over and over again, to reflect on who I am, to try to be better, to try to understand. There be dragons .

Alb you did us all well by posting this story, be eliciting the responses from our wise and loving friends on the forum. Thank you for making yourself vulnerable by sharing. We are holding you close. I am holding you in my heart.

Echo
 

MaryJane

New Member
I say, it's a time to teach not rescue. Direct him how he goes about getting a new SS card & license, and how to file a police report. Tell him how to find emergency shelter. No reason for you to replace these items when he is perfectly capable of doing that himself.
 

Albatross

Well-Known Member
It helps me to know that even though you've been doing this for some time, you still aren't sure sometimes what is best.
RN, I am glad it can be of help to you. I think that is one of the real strengths of this place, seeing that we are not alone. I don't think I will ever be sure what is best.

I know you are on the tightrope right now as well, with so much hanging in the balance on the day-to-day choices your son makes. It is such a hard place to be. I wish you much peace in the days ahead.

It is hard to believe that we have been dealing with substance use of one sort or another for over 10 years now, and if anything I feel LESS certain than I used to be.

Direct him how he goes about getting a new SS card & license, and how to file a police report. Tell him how to find emergency shelter. No reason for you to replace these items when he is perfectly capable of doing that himself.

Mary Jane, welcome to the forum. You will find much great support around here.

I hear what you are saying. The ID issue has been a back and forth for awhile, then morphed into something else entirely. Helping with the expense of it was a way to meet in the middle, but I am not sure it was the right thing to do. I hope it was. It is so hard to know when (and how) to support positive changes vs. staying out of it.

Echo, dear friend, thank you so much for your kind words.

I went to a week long silent retreat a few years ago (that was an amazing event, I'm still not sure how I pulled that off). Thich Nhat Hahn was the host, and he spoke every day...the theme was suffering well. He said that if you learn to suffer well you suffer less. Part of the the message was to stop fighting suffering stop pushing it away..that just makes it fight harder, try harder take you down longer. If you let suffering roll through you, roll with you, and follow it, stay with it...you can come out the other side, transcend it as you said, stronger, better. Accepting. Whole.

I'll bet that WAS an amazing event! I love this idea of suffering well, of accepting suffering. Suffering, especially with these sorts of challenges, definitely isn't going away, any more than the love we hold for our children is going to go away.

Maybe, if we just allow ourselves to be vulnerable to it and stop seeing it as something to change, we also allow the rest of it to break through...the bits of shared joy and love and letting each other "off the hook." As you say, it is not all bad and sad.

Wow, I surely do not feel like I am leading any sort of examined life! I am trying to be a little less of an (*insert censored icon here*) and a little more kind. Does that count?:unsure:

Alb you did us all well by posting this story, be eliciting the responses from our wise and loving friends on the forum. Thank you for making yourself vulnerable by sharing. We are holding you close. I am holding you in my heart.

Thank you, friends, for holding me close, and for sharing burdens and wisdom with me. It is much appreciated.
 

jetsam

Active Member
yup same scenario here my son called once saying he picked up a girl in a bar and when he woke up she and the money were gone...yea right! no I'm not sending you money. lol...that along with pawning anything of value that my husband and i ever gave him. oh once he asked if he could borrow the wii to play game with his roommate at the time...yup, pawned it. shame on me!
 

Tanya M

Living with an attitude of gratitude
Staff member
Today he was picking arguments with me because I was trying to challenge his worldview. I stopped right in the middle of my furious and righteous response and thought, "What am I doing?! This is one I CANNOT WIN." So I backed off and made some general "mom" type words of encouragement, ending on a nice (but bland) note
When my son starts to pick an argument with me I hear the robot voice from lost in space "danger, danger will Robinson" I know that it's a trap. You are right, it's something we cannot win. My son is a master at talking in circles and it can be exhausting. I go into safe mode and keep my responses very plain.
I have often wondered why my son will try and engage me into one of his debates. I wonder if it's because he is trying to prove he can break me or is he trying to avoid having a "real" conversation.

Maybe, if we just allow ourselves to be vulnerable to it and stop seeing it as something to change, we also allow the rest of it to break through...the bits of shared joy and love and letting each other "off the hook."
I agree!! When I finally stopped looking at my son in regards to him "needing" to change, things changed for me. When I realized that my wanting him to change was more about me and what I wanted than what he wanted was a huge turning point for me. I still don't like the lifestyle he is living but it's his life, his choice.

My son did send me a message that he wants to change, he's tired of his life being in a rut and that he wants our relationship to be better. I'm optimistically guarded. I'm so grateful I have this site to ask for feedback.
 

Albatross

Well-Known Member
Son got his replacement ID last Monday and said he had 2 "certain" jobs lined up, *IF ONLY* he had some work boots. His last day at the shelter was supposedly Friday if he did not have a job. So I got him some work boots, same day in-store pickup.

Yes, I know better, and I did it anyway.

He took 2 extra days to pick up the boots, then decided one of the jobs was too far to travel, then said the other one didn't call. We haven't heard from him in a week. His phone is off.

oh once he asked if he could borrow the wii to play game with his roommate at the time...yup, pawned it.

I think I am facing something similar. I am guessing that he either exchanged the boots for booze and got kicked out of the shelter for drinking OR he is in the wind again, or both.

He has his food stamps and his ID now. Easier to hit the road than to get a job.

When I realized that my wanting him to change was more about me and what I wanted than what he wanted was a huge turning point for me.

Yes, exactly. Did my son ASK for boots? No. Did he even WANT the boots? Probably not. Not having boots was the last excuse he had for not working.

I KNOW better! I have been down this road SO MANY times before! Yet I continue to try to force change in the hopes that *he* can be what *I* want him to be.

How silly is that?

I saw this in "The Language of Letting Go" this morning. It seemed to really fit. With my son I can be a real "Energy Fairy", sprinkling my "magic change dust" all over the place. I really need to stop.

"Much of our obsessing, our intense focus on others, is done to facilitate this "out of body experience" we call codependency. We obsess, we babble, we become anxious. We try to control, caretake, and fuss over others. Our energy spills out of us onto whomever."

Our energy is our energy."

"If our energy is spilling out of us in unhealthy ways, we can ask ourselves what is going on, what is hurting us, what we are avoiding, what we need to face, what we need to deal with. Then we can do that."
 

Childofmine

one day at a time
Alb, don't be so hard on yourself. I wonder how many "pairs of boots" I've bought over the years for Difficult Child.

I don't think it's a bad thing that you did that. I think it reinforces what you know about yourself and what you've learned.

And you never know, maybe he did intend to pursue the job when he said it. Maybe he really did.

It is what it is. He will do whatever he is going to do, until he decides not to.
There is comfort in that. It's not about us.
 

mof

Momdidntsignupforthis
It is what it is...well, they were just boots. My hubby use to say..it's just money, u can spend it, lose it...make more. But you can't take it with you and it cures nothing...just a bandaid. Not that we all have t lost thousands on dreams we had for someone else...our child.

Ahhh, the magic change dust....I love this. I have spilled it, vacuumed it and try to make more...it's a product I. Need to leave be.

Albie...my good wishes go to you to night. We are human and will always hope.
 

savior no more

Active Member
Actually as I reread this you could replace "suffering" with "Difficult Child". If you stop fighting Difficult Child, stop pushing them, stop making them fight harder and try harder to take you down...if you roll with them, stay with them where they are, we might all come out the other side.

Echo -
I loved your whole post and reply. And you are so right that replacing the word Difficult Child with Suffering it makes total sense. I really needed to hear this today. I haven't read much about suffering well as I've spent most of my life trying to control events to not suffer but these last two years have forced me into a deeper love, acceptance, and understanding of life that I would have never known had it not been for my Difficult Child :)
 

RN0441

100% better than I was but not at 100% yet
Albie:
The fact that you bought him the work boots means to me that you have NOT given up all hope.

You are taking care of yourself better, dealing with it all better but you still have hope. I think that is a good thing. If a mother gives up hope then who will have hope?

I'm sure I would have done the same thing.

Echo/Savior:
Both posts awesome!
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
Hope comes from us. If it's about somebody else, our hope doesnt help them. I hope you returned the shoes. Anything can be sold for drug money.

It is the adult child who has to believe he will change. Our feelings on the matter are for us, not them.

I learned this the hard way.

Next time Son asks for anything for "work" buy used or nothing unless he can show proof of employment. Work shoes a re pricey!
 

so ready to live

Well-Known Member
oh Albie.
I don't think it's a bad thing that you did that. I think it reinforces what you know about yourself and what you've learned.
Line me up in the camp that "would have bought boots". You didn't send $, you didn't rent him a home or buy him a car. Someplace in the mess of all this pain, there's a spot for a mom simply trying to put shoes on her son's feet. That kind of thing, the thing I would do for anyone's son, I cannot NOT do for my own. Yes, I know he can sell them for drug money. I get that. But COM is right, it's me that needs in small ways to hold open that door. That's what I've learned. That's what I can live with today. Tomorrow...who knows? Prayers.
 

Lil

Well-Known Member
That kind of thing, the thing I would do for anyone's son, I cannot NOT do for my own

I agree. I know Jabber didn't really like it when I'd buy food for ours at the shelter or even at his apartment. But that's how I felt - I would feed anyone. If I do nothing else, I will help him have food to eat. I am still buying some clothing. I bought socks the other day. If he needs new shoes, I'm willing to do that. I once did a Wal-Mart purchase - I bought some items thru my Wal-Mart account and he picked up what I bought at the Wal-Mart where he was. Did he turn around and exchange it? Probably. But what I bought was a necessity.
 

Albatross

Well-Known Member
Just a quick update. He texted this evening.

He is still in the shelter. His phone only works with free wifi and he hasn't had a chance to, because...he has been working in his new job!

I am very happy about the outcome, but I also think that regardless of the outcome, I am glad I got the boots. Even before I found out about his job, I realized that. As you all said, I want to hold hope. I need to.

Our feelings on the matter are for us, not them.

I think this is true, SWOT. In this instance it feels like it was the right thing for me to do. Maybe not in every instance, and of course we won't be making a habit of ordering things on walmart.com! , But in this instance I feel good about my decision.

Thanks so much for all of your thoughts on this one.
 

savior no more

Active Member
Did my son ASK for boots? No. Did he even WANT the boots? Probably not
I bought my son a pair of nice Western boots one Christmas two years or three years ago because I wanted him to have them. Last summer in the Halfway House these were the first things hocked for $20 to get him a bus ticket back home.
I've never heard it put in such a way as the "magic fairy dust" but boy that is certainly what I do. That's what mamas do isn't it? Manage this and do that and it will all be okay. What a cruel trick this thing parenthood is :/
 

Childofmine

one day at a time
Sounds like he is better, Alb. That is really good. Prayers it continues.

My husband talks a lot about pixie dust. People expecting miracles, at work, with challenging people, with tough situations...

There is no pixie dust. Life is slow. People don't turn on a dime. They may start in a direction...and then digress...and then start again...and then go backward....and if we're lucky, return to the progress.

I guess some people have an easier road to walk, and some people don't. I don't know how else to grapple with it.

Right now...I'm sensing (I know, that mother's intuition that can be so wrong) that Difficult Child is maybe struggling a bit. I think I posted somewhere lately that he told me he's started taking antidepressants and going to therapy. Good on the face of it. But I haven't heard from him much at all in a couple of weeks. Now...that could be good...and it could be neutral....and it could be bad.

But of course my old thinking kicks in...

I'll see him Monday afternoon as we are having all over for a cookout for daughter in law's birthday. Til then, I'm standing back. If he wants to call me, he will.

Another thing husband says is this: You'll know when you need to know.

Sigh.
 

Childofmine

one day at a time
Hi Alb, Thank you for asking. He's doing pretty well, working hard and working a lot of hours. He came over to watch the NFL game yesterday with us. He said he thinks his antidepressants are working, and he's sleeping a lot better. The look on his face was better, not so drawn and tired, more open.

Then later in the afternoon his car broke down. So, he's trying to figure all of that out, and I'm trying to toe the line between providing "reasonable" assistance and not taking it all on. He definitely has made progress in the past 2+ years, but as I told husband today, I wish he would "take hold" of problems more and come up with possible solutions. He doesn't have enough confidence in himself.

Having said that, I realize people are who they are. We can't wish it all perfect. He likely can't get any kind of loan at this point, and he is paying his bills but truly doesn't have any leftover money. He has to get to work, so we'll see. Just trying to go slow and see what happens without jumping in too much.

You know. We all know. How are you? What's going on with Difficult Child?

Warm hugs tonight.
 
Top