Hurt and frustrated

[RN0441]

Just catching up too. Not sure how I missed this thread.

Wow JayPee is all I can say. Also Busy that is awful. I cannot wrap my head around either of these treatments.

You have gotten great advice, love and warmth from the others and I would like to throw my hat in also to give you both a cyber hug for having to endure that from someone that you love.

My son was not abusive and he once texted me the middle finger because I would not give him $10 and I still cannot get that out of my head. It really hurt me that he was able to do that to me. He was a beast but he never was cruel.

I cannot fathom that type of treatment and I personally would have no problem blocking them and not doing anything for them. I would be very angry. How dare he/she!!

JayPee please do whatever you need to do to take care of yourself. I cannot think of anyone that deserves it more than you!

 

[Deni D]

JayPee ~ It seems your son is forcing your hand. At least that's the way I felt with mine. I felt my son was so nasty I had no choice but to show him he can't treat someone with such disrespect and expect anything from them. On some level I kind of feel a bit lucky, if my son were not so abusive it would have been even harder for me to back away from my enabling.

My son learned his lethal verbal & written moves from his father. He now sounds exactly like his father when his father was not stable. Name calling is bad but the lengthy character assignation type verbal vomit started up once I started to cut off any financial support. If your son is anything like mine he will ramp it up as you try to change things. I think it's good you are in therapy and probably a good idea to continue.

As of now my son has made it impossible for me to support him in anyway, emotionally, by guidance or financially. I currently will not allow any contact, period. I've had to accept this may never change, but I couldn't take the alternative any longer.

As as an adult I believe it's on him how he chooses to behave and relate to others, even with the mental illness. I suspect your sons wouldn't dare speak to others who they know could very well "clean their clock" in the same manner as they speak to you. I know my son wouldn't and therefore know no matter what he has some control of himself, but rather believes he's entitled to all that is mine and entitled to get as nasty as he wants to punish me for not giving in. Anyone can believe anything they want, but I don't have to go along with it, no matter who they are.

 

[BusynMember1]

Deni, unless the child is psychotic (unable to tell reality from fantasy) and thinks we are part of a world plot to kill him/her, they have the control to TRY being nice and do not have to act like babies if we won't do everything for them. I don't use common mental illnesses that are treatable, like depression and anxiety, as valid excuses for being hateful to us.

It took me thirty years, but I finally joined my husband in refusing Kay anything material. This may end with our never seeing her again. I dont want that, but I also rather have no relationship at all with her than the bossy, nasty, onesided, abusive relationship we have had since her young 20s. in my opinion that IS no relationship.

We are sort of where you are at. I'm glad you posted, although sorry that you had to tell us such a sad story. Still, I like to know I'm not alone or a monster for feeling better with Kay out of my life. I do miss Jaden, but with the lifestyle in that apartment, I believe they will lose custody one day and then we will be able to finally.see him. My other daughter is eager and ready to take custody of him the first chance she gets.

 

[Nandina]

Busy, what a blessing that friend was and I’m so very sorry you all have endured such cruelty, coming from your children. I once was called the “C” word by my son and I thought that was as bad as it got! And I don’t know how many times I’ve been told to f-off or f-you by my difficult child when he was in the home. But whether it’s being cussed out or spewed other venom at, none of us deserves to be talked to like that by our children and should not stand for it. Busy, you have come such a long way from the sound of your posts and you should be commended for that. It had to have been hard going from where you were to where you are now. Your kind voice of experience is very helpful.

 

[Beta]

As of now my son has made it impossible for me to support him in anyway, emotionally, by guidance or financially.

This is now where we are with our son.

I've had to accept this may never change, but I couldn't take the alternative any longer.

. Ditto to this. It just beats you down and creates trauma within your psyche.

As as an adult I believe it's on him how he chooses to behave and relate to others, even with the mental illness

. This I'm still trying to figure out. How much of Josh's bad behavior/verbal abuse is he responsible for? I'm not trying to excuse him, but it's hard not to wonder how much is the disease and how much is "him."

This may end with our never seeing her again. I dont want that, but I also rather have no relationship at all with her than the bossy, nasty, onesided, abusive relationship we have had since her young 20s. in my opinion that IS no relationship.

. This is true, and this is where I have arrived at, as well.

 

[BusynMember1]

I would love a nice Kay in my life. Is it ever worth it to me to have an abusive person in my life, even if it is a beloved child? Someone who demeans us, disregards our feelings and boundaries, is too selfish to ask how WE are doing?

I think this just weakens us and makes us slaves. My husband and I will no longer do it. If Kay refuses to so much as not smoke around me because I don't like it and have smoke allergies, or to refuse to speak calmly to us or to let us see her child without making us pay for it then this is not somebody I want to see. The door is always open, but with her respecting us as we do her. We cant tell her how to live her life unless she wants our support. Then I feel we have every right to put up reasonable boundaries. I ask no more or less from Kay than from my other kids. Or anyone. No pot on our premesis, no cussing at us, reasonable access to Jaden, an attempt to be kind. Those are basic. Easy.

I feel guilty over how peaceful we feel these days. Amy still lives here with her kids half time as her house is being built. The relationship just flows. No yelling. Nothing bad. Sometimes she cooks for all of us and she helps me clean and her kids actually listen to us. They are delightful.

My son visits more. He is close to Amy and.loves his neice and nephew. He mows the lawn and helps my hub with other chores and they fish a lot. Hugs me like a kid. "You are the best mom." I need this after what Kay accused me of. There arr no strings attached to the love we give our other kids or they give us. None. No bartering for love.

Kay destroys our harmony. She is welcome here, as we love her, but she has to at least try being nice. She is not so mentally ill that she can not try. We have offered to pay for any mental health or rehab she enters into that still stands.

We have done what we can. It is time to enjoy our golden years.

 

[JayPee]

Busy,

You sound like you are at such a good place in your life. Definitely having your two other children around is a blessing. I'm happy for you.

Hoping as I keep turning my will and life over to God that I'll get there too. I often have heard, God does not always give you what you "want" but rather what you "need".

That's certainly been the case in my life. Even when I don't get the loving, kind, compassionate relationship I would have hoped for with Adult Sons, he still has surrounded with we so many other blessings I can hardly count them all.

 

[BusynMember1]

I am glad. Blessings are not just about our children!!

 

[Copabanana]

How much of Josh's bad behavior/verbal abuse is he responsible for?

This is how I look at it.

It may be that 100 percent of Josh's behavior is fueled by his illness..., i.e. caused by it.

At the same time he is 100 percent responsible for it. Not responsible in the sense that he intended it or caused it. But that he is responsible to live with it. And he is responsible to be open to changing it, through putting himself into treatment, opening up to support from professionals, and eventually implementing and sustaining change day to day, by choosing to live well.

In this latter sense he is obligated to, accountable for living with the consequences of his illness. He will either do so constructively, over time, or not. Why is he accountable or responsible in this sense? Because it's his life. In my faith we teach that each of us receives a portion of blessing and curse. It is our job to learn. Josh is no different.

He has been presented with a life, like all of us. What he will do with it, will be his task. Mentally ill or not. He has received love and care and support. Which is still there for him. From his parents and it is available from others as well. He will have to decide if he opens to it or not. Nobody can help him with this.

Josh may be without culpability in the cause of his behavior. But he will be 100 percent responsible for it. How could it be otherwise? If he chooses to deny his illness, to deny efforts to help him, those around him will make their own choices, to limit contact, as his happening. And at some point society may step in and hold him responsible for his actions, even though it was his illness that caused them. And this may give him pause, to begin to see that he can change.

I just looked up the word.

adjective
adjective: responsible

1. having an obligation to do something, or having control over or care for someone, as part of one's job or role.
   "the department responsible for education"
   synonyms: in charge of, in control of, at the helm of, accountable for, liable for, charged with; More
   manage, oversee, superintend, supervise, conduct, run, look after, organize, produce, see to
   "the Home Office is responsible for prisons"
   • being the primary cause of something and so able to be blamed or credited for it.
     "the gene was responsible for a rare type of eye cancer"
     synonyms: accountable, answerable, to blame;
     behind, at the bottom of, guilty of, culpable of;
     blameworthy, at fault, in the wrong
     "those responsible for the mistake have been dealt with"
     antonyms: guiltless
   • (of a job or position) involving important duties, independent decision-making, or control over others.

 

[Beta]

Copa, thank you.

At the same time he is 100 percent responsible for it. Not responsible in the sense that he intended it or caused it. But that he is responsible to live with it. And he is responsible to be open to changing it, through putting himself into treatment, opening up to support from professionals, and eventually implementing and sustaining change day to day, by choosing to live well.

. This is a good clarification that "clicks" in my mind.

He has been presented with a life, like all of us. What he will do with it, will be his task. Mentally ill or not. He has received love and care and support. Which is still there for him. From his parents and it is available from others as well. He will have to decide if he opens to it or not. Nobody can help him with this.

Josh may be without culpability in the cause of his behavior. But for deal with the results of it, in the form of his behavior and its effect on others, he is 100 percent responsible

. This too is helpful; thank you for your insight. As I can see from the definition of responsible, the synonyms "manage," "oversee," "superintend" also speak to his responsibility to manage and oversee what his genetics have brought to him, as we all are I suppose.

 

[Beta]

Busy, your two other kids sound wonderful and I am so glad they are there to love you back. I hope you will one day not feel any guilt for feeling better when Kay is absent from your life.

 

[Crayola13]

So as many of you know I'm working on not enabling my 30 & 26 yr. olds. I've stopped the gas ups as of a month ago with lots of back lash in particular from older son. Verbal and physical threats from older son. I still pay for student loans, storage unit, gym membership fee and cell phone but hand outs for cash & gas and food, no longer.

It just hurts me that today he sent an e-mail as follows:

"For real though you better not f*&%)*#@ open your mouth or ever come near me again. And I can't afford to pay for my phone bill in time before I get paid. So I know you are a shallow piece of human feces but please pay for it his next month. Not that I can count on You for anything you giant herpe. Kill yourself ignorant woman."

Who says "please" in a sentence like that? I had planned on paying his cell phone minutes because I just renew them on line. I know he just started working and as many of the other mothers do (from what I've read) paying the cell phone allows me some level of comfort. I also, felt like he has more connection with work schedules etc.

However, I'm feeling like I just got punched in the stomach or heart. I will have to think long and hard about this because I feel like I'll be rewarding him with phone minutes and still allowing him to speak to me this way.

Also, I tried last night to text younger son. Just to explain to him that I don't want to be estranged from him but he does nothing to better his situation and I cannot/will no longer give out money. I explained in every conversation it's just too difficult for me because he does not accept No for an answer.

It didn't go well. Basically he says me and his father have abandoned him. He is 26 and I could have replied with the usual that he's not a baby or 18 yrs. old. etc. where one would consider that abandonment. But instead I just blocked him again. I was trying to set some boundaries so I could still keep in touch with him but it didn't work.

So as many of you know I'm working on not enabling my 30 & 26 yr. olds. I've stopped the gas ups as of a month ago with lots of back lash in particular from older son. Verbal and physical threats from older son. I still pay for student loans, storage unit, gym membership fee and cell phone but hand outs for cash & gas and food, no longer.

It just hurts me that today he sent an e-mail as follows:

"For real though you better not f*&%)*#@ open your mouth or ever come near me again. And I can't afford to pay for my phone bill in time before I get paid. So I know you are a shallow piece of human feces but please pay for it his next month. Not that I can count on You for anything you giant herpe. Kill yourself ignorant woman."

Who says "please" in a sentence like that? I had planned on paying his cell phone minutes because I just renew them on line. I know he just started working and as many of the other mothers do (from what I've read) paying the cell phone allows me some level of comfort. I also, felt like he has more connection with work schedules etc.

However, I'm feeling like I just got punched in the stomach or heart. I will have to think long and hard about this because I feel like I'll be rewarding him with phone minutes and still allowing him to speak to me this way.

Also, I tried last night to text younger son. Just to explain to him that I don't want to be estranged from him but he does nothing to better his situation and I cannot/will no longer give out money. I explained in every conversation it's just too difficult for me because he does not accept No for an answer.

It didn't go well. Basically he says me and his father have abandoned him. He is 26 and I could have replied with the usual that he's not a baby or 18 yrs. old. etc. where one would consider that abandonment. But instead I just blocked him again. I was trying to set some boundaries so I could still keep in touch with him but it didn't work.

I'm so sorry. His words were very hurtful. I think he has a bigger mental illness than anxiety and PTSD from his dad. I work at the shelter, and there are so many people there with severe untreated mental illness who will never be able to understand why they need treatment in order to work and function in life. Most of them don't even think they are mentally ill and blame everyone else for their predicament. You cannot make them take their medications. The social workers try to counsel them and can work up a plan for them to overcome homelessness, but most of them don't take advantage of these services. It's hard to understand. Half of them won't go to the shelter because there are rules there. many of them are people who don't want to live a conventional life or follow rules. Drugs can be a factor, too. It's mainly mental illness.

 

[WiseChoices]

I would love a nice Kay in my life. Is it ever worth it to me to have an abusive person in my life, even if it is a beloved child? Someone who demeans us, disregards our feelings and boundaries, is too selfish to ask how WE are doing?

I think this just weakens us and makes us slaves. My husband and I will no longer do it. If Kay refuses to so much as not smoke around me because I don't like it and have smoke allergies, or to refuse to speak calmly to us or to let us see her child without making us pay for it then this is not somebody I want to see. The door is always open, but with her respecting us as we do her. We cant tell her how to live her life unless she wants our support. Then I feel we have every right to put up reasonable boundaries. I ask no more or less from Kay than from my other kids. Or anyone. No pot on our premesis, no cussing at us, reasonable access to Jaden, an attempt to be kind. Those are basic. Easy.

I feel guilty over how peaceful we feel these days. Amy still lives here with her kids half time as her house is being built. The relationship just flows. No yelling. Nothing bad. Sometimes she cooks for all of us and she helps me clean and her kids actually listen to us. They are delightful.

My son visits more. He is close to Amy and.loves his neice and nephew. He mows the lawn and helps my hub with other chores and they fish a lot. Hugs me like a kid. "You are the best mom." I need this after what Kay accused me of. There arr no strings attached to the love we give our other kids or they give us. None. No bartering for love.

Kay destroys our harmony. She is welcome here, as we love her, but she has to at least try being nice. She is not so mentally ill that she can not try. We have offered to pay for any mental health or rehab she enters into that still stands.

We have done what we can. It is time to enjoy our golden years.

I started to tear up, Busy, when I read how lovingly your children treat you. When your son says you are the best Mom! How I wish I would hear that from my own children . It makes me so sad that I am at the receivind end of so much criticism, resentment, and anger.

It is I who put myself in the position to allow myself to be disempowered and I have to take a look at that and change ME.

I am so glad for you that you have this live and appreciation from your children after everything you have been through with Kay.

 

[Blindsided]

So as many of you know I'm working on not enabling my 30 & 26 yr. olds. I've stopped the gas ups as of a month ago with lots of back lash in particular from older son. Verbal and physical threats from older son. I still pay for student loans, storage unit, gym membership fee and cell phone but hand outs for cash & gas and food, no longer.

It just hurts me that today he sent an e-mail as follows:

"For real though you better not f*&%)*#@ open your mouth or ever come near me again. And I can't afford to pay for my phone bill in time before I get paid. So I know you are a shallow piece of human feces but please pay for it his next month. Not that I can count on You for anything you giant herpe. Kill yourself ignorant woman."

Who says "please" in a sentence like that? I had planned on paying his cell phone minutes because I just renew them on line. I know he just started working and as many of the other mothers do (from what I've read) paying the cell phone allows me some level of comfort. I also, felt like he has more connection with work schedules etc.

However, I'm feeling like I just got punched in the stomach or heart. I will have to think long and hard about this because I feel like I'll be rewarding him with phone minutes and still allowing him to speak to me this way.

Also, I tried last night to text younger son. Just to explain to him that I don't want to be estranged from him but he does nothing to better his situation and I cannot/will no longer give out money. I explained in every conversation it's just too difficult for me because he does not accept No for an answer.

It didn't go well. Basically he says me and his father have abandoned him. He is 26 and I could have replied with the usual that he's not a baby or 18 yrs. old. etc. where one would consider that abandonment. But instead I just blocked him again. I was trying to set some boundaries so I could still keep in touch with him but it didn't work.

JayPea, my daughter, soon to be 41, still talks to me that way. You probably even gave me some asvice. I paid for storage units, tires, car tags, etc. Let's just say thousands of dollars from my retirement. I put the brakes on that in 2016. To this day she tries to get some currency from me by talking to me so abusively. I refer you to the article here on detachment. The one I seem to have committed to memory (not an easy thing for me, so it must have left quite an impression) goes something like this...
Detachment is allowing someone the space to be the person they are.

I love this quote by Eleanor Roosevelt. It particularly helps when I internalize my daughters vile words.

"Noone can make you feel inferior without your consent."

Hope that helps.

 

[BusynMember1]

Wise, we are lucky with the younger two. Yet we, to be honest, rather ignored them for much of their childhood because our focus was on Kay. Mine was in particular.

And I also put the best husband ever on the backburner because he didn't always think buying Kay houses, cars, food that she could use a food share card to purchase, clothes that she could get for free at our church, Iphones etc...well, he started to think we should stop the endless Christmas for Kay. We almost divorced. The younger kids saw me stay home from their athletic events if Kay was having a bad day and needed me. And Kay always had bad days and was jealous if I paid attention to my other kids. They were closer to their father. He went when I refused to leave Kay.

I felt I had to fix the broken one and the others would be okay. Little did I realize that I was broken as well. I thought I was being a good mom. Lol.

The other kids both have good hearts but have spoken to me about feeling neglected. That my son can say I am the best mom is a testimony to his goodness, not my parenting. Same with Amy. Fortunately they not only accepted my forgiveness but say they understand that I felt Kay needed me more.

If they had been less loving and understanding I would feel better. Their unconditional kindness and love makes me feel guilty. I will spend the rest of my days making my negligence up to these three. I know God blessed me. I am not sure I deserve it. I never bought the other kids homes or multiple cars or iPhones. I figured they didn't need these gifts. They were capable.

There is nothing like buying your beloved child a car one day and hearing an insincere "Thank you. Love you." Then as shoon as there is car trouble i hear "Hey, Mary (not my real first name), you b@#$&. You got me this piece of sh$# car! Fix it! Think I can afford to fix this crap just because you got such a sh@#$y car? I told you to buy a new one! You just don't think I am your real kid,Mary, so either fix it or you will never see Jaden. I got the car because we have a baby now. Or did you forget?"

Yep. Life enabling Kay and putting her before the rest of the world.

I feel lucky, but also very guilty.

God bless you all. Learn from me.

 

[JayPee]

Gosh all you ladies give me such courage when reading your posts. I have been praying hard because just as I suspected homeless Son #2 is coming to a simmer. Ex had "taken over" my enabling for several months but he is feeling the pinch now and also knows it's a situation that isn't improving along with health.

He as opposed to older son, he is for now, quite calm. He too has no gas, no food etc. I blocked him recently, not because he was rude but because he doesn't take no for an answer and he too will get nasty. Today, I went out at lunch (at work) and he left me a note on my windshield. Could I please help? He has no money, no gas, no food, some kind of ticket he needs to pay by the end of the month etc.

I am surely being tested. I've been praying diligently that I have the strength to get through all this badgering. That is the first thing I did when I felt my world spinning again.

 

[RN0441]

JayPee

When I was in the thick of it I saw my therapist weekly and prayed and that got me through it. But boy was it the toughest thing I've ever been through and I have been through a lot.

We moved out of state for my job relocation while our son was in a faith based program (the only one that changed him and this was our final attempt to help him help himself) and it has been the best thing for all of us. I found a wonderful non denominational church and also a woman's group so don't need my therapist any longer. There was a light at the end of the tunnel for me.....

I did feel that my move here was more than just a coincidence. So many good things have happened this past year and continue to happen so I feel like my 7 years of 24/7 prayers did finally get answered. I met a coworker that has become like a sister to me and that was never in the plan. I know we will be lifelong friends. Just so many wonderful blessings and I continue to know where they are from. Sometimes you have to be open and listen for guidance and act on it.

 

[JayPee]

RN

I know I have to be more open and listen for guidance. I’m doing better than I was even 6 months ago but I still have a long way to go.

Even with today’s issues with younger son I handled it way better than before. In the past I handled both adult sons requests/demands for $ or other things they could do for themselves like it was a “hot potato”. I couldn’t stand the thought of their discomfort and immediately had to make it go away. This for me has by far been my biggest hurdle. I try to not react but rather act. I pray for strength and then I wait. I wait for them to do for themselves or not. I’m not lashing back to verbal abuse and trying to justify the insane things anymore that they say to keep me engaged in conversation one way or the other. I also have had the courage to block them. One day last year I went to a local fair and older son was wishing me dead and was texting vicious things to me all day long. I could not block him. How sick is that? At some level I felt I deserved listen to his remarks.

Sorry to go on. I think this was cathartic for me to see that I may have a ways to go but I’ve come far.

 

[BusynMember1]

Jmo.

If either wish you dead tell them you will give them a taste of that and block them for a month minimum. Each time they say this heinous thing make it longer.

Most people don't even text their worst enemy that the person wants them dead. There is something evil about wishing anyone dead let alone saying it to your loving parent. I love God and wonder what He thinks about that.

That is one line that if anyone crosses in my life, that person will be out of my life. That is not acceptable in my life. It never was. I did not know kids, even cruel kids like Kay, would go so far as to wish for our deaths. If she had gone there, it would have been me who cut contact.

To me there is a veiled threat there too. Would either kill you? Are you sure? Over gas? Over food that they can get themselves? Just because they refuse to work?

I did not think I could be shocked. Kay was terrible. But I am shocked.

Please think about this "relationship" you have. I don't blame you, but you have allowed your hoys to say any evil to you. What if they come after you? Heck, we thought Kay might so we put in a top notch security system. But she never threatened our lives.

I hope you see the insanity soon and put the breaks on. They don't deserve to he comfortable. Not on your dime.

You reap what you sow

Much love and God's protection.

 

[WiseChoices]

Wise, we are lucky with the younger two. Yet we, to be honest, rather ignored them for much of their childhood because our focus was on Kay. Mine was in particular.

And I also put the best husband ever on the backburner because he didn't always think buying Kay houses, cars, food that she could use a food share card to purchase, clothes that she could get for free at our church, Iphones etc...well, he started to think we should stop the endless Christmas for Kay. We almost divorced. The younger kids saw me stay home from their athletic events if Kay was having a bad day and needed me. And Kay always had bad days and was jealous if I paid attention to my other kids. They were closer to their father. He went when I refused to leave Kay.

I felt I had to fix the broken one and the others would be okay. Little did I realize that I was broken as well. I thought I was being a good mom. Lol.

The other kids both have good hearts but have spoken to me about feeling neglected. That my son can say I am the best mom is a testimony to his goodness, not my parenting. Same with Amy. Fortunately they not only accepted my forgiveness but say they understand that I felt Kay needed me more.

If they had been less loving and understanding I would feel better. Their unconditional kindness and love makes me feel guilty. I will spend the rest of my days making my negligence up to these three. I know God blessed me. I am not sure I deserve it. I never bought the other kids homes or multiple cars or iPhones. I figured they didn't need these gifts. They were capable.

There is nothing like buying your beloved child a car one day and hearing an insincere "Thank you. Love you." Then as shoon as there is car trouble i hear "Hey, Mary (not my real first name), you b@#$&. You got me this piece of sh$# car! Fix it! Think I can afford to fix this crap just because you got such a sh@#$y car? I told you to buy a new one! You just don't think I am your real kid,Mary, so either fix it or you will never see Jaden. I got the car because we have a baby now. Or did you forget?"

Yep. Life enabling Kay and putting her before the rest of the world.

I feel lucky, but also very guilty.

God bless you all. Learn from me.

Busy , thank you for all you said here. It is very helpful and enlightening. I also overfunctioned when my kids underfunctioned. My son about life in general and then my daughter with mental health issues. I also stayed home when she needed me or put my interests and life on hold for her .

I am trying to stop the over functioning. It's hard. Told my daughter yesterday I don't like the way she talks to me. It's not acceptable. Showed son HOW to iron his shirt when he asked for help rather than doing it for him. Reminded him today to clean his room and he did. I have them both wash their sheets, dust, remove trash, and sweep and mop their floors once a month. Son seems relieved when he does this : he likes a cleaner room, and he seems to like to do this for himself when prompted. Just can't seem to find the motivation to do it without me providing the structure.

You have been through a lot ! I really appreciate your perspective and sharing your experience, strength, and hope. I ha e allowed my children to speak to me in unacceptable ways in the past and am learning now that I can't allow their mental health issues to be excuses for bad behavior.