Hurt and frustrated

[BusynMember1]

Kay said heinous things to us. But wishing death on us, no. That would have gotten my attention. However, she did threaten to hurt people. I don't know why I put up with that. It came to fruition.

One night after dinner at our house, my son said something that infuriated Kay. She developed the super strength of an enraged person, picked up a breakable heavy object and slammed it at my son's head. It missed by an inch and slammed into the wall. My son had cuts on his face. He went to ER but did not rat her out.

Kay was never allowed into our home again. It started my having to face the fact that she can be dangerous. She could have killed him. Maybe she hoped to. She doesn't like Amy, but she loathes our son for speaking up against her.

I never felt as hopeful that Kay would change after that and we started giving her less. I handled her calling me by my first name instead of Mom. I tolerated her cussing and using lewd sex talk. I tolerated her saying she hated us. We were used to it. But after she did that to our son, something changed inside me.

It still took me a few years to be ready to detach.

Sometimes it takes us a long time to actually be able to stop the extreme verbal abuse. Anyone who abuses us with violent words is capable of hurting us or our loved ones. I believe this. Violent words are serious.

Kay showed us this when she did that to my son. Her words became actions.

Every time somebody speaks, that person clues us in big time to who they are and what they may do. Most people are kind and safe.

Our kids who bring us here mostly are not. We owe it to ourselves and our safe loved ones to take precautions. We must get our kids to deescalate in word and deed and thought or there could be a tragedy. This at least is how I feel.

God bless all.

 

[Nomad]

Jaypee...
It saddened me to read that text. I’m so sorry. It had to be very upsetting.
I would cut off older son until such time as he can treat you with respect. You decide in what limited way you might help him. Not in the many ways you are doing currently. Pick one perhaps. And then stick to your guns.

When I get phone solicitations and the person is very pushy, I literally turn the phone upside down so I can no longer hear a word they are saying. I’m probably speaking over them. And I say something like “Thank you for calling. I’m not interested in this product. Good luck and have a nice day. “ click.

So...in a similar manner you might call or better yet text your son and say I am no longer paying for the following items....I will pay for xxxx for the time being. Additionally, I no longer will accept vulgar or inappropriate texts from you. If I receive any further communications from you like that again, I will block you for one month.

(Just an example)

We pay for our daughter’s cell phone. One of the hardest things I’ve done in the past was cut it off for a few days. She was rude to me and I warned her. She not only loves her phone because of all the usual reasons , but it’s an important safety tool. She greatly hesitates to be rude to me now via text etc. and if she pushes me, all it takes us a threat. Sometimes, if she is just annoying...a temporary block her.

Please do not tolerate such horrible language and what is bottom line abuse.

Think if it this way...you are not doing him any favors by tolerating it. You are inadvertently teaching him that being cruel and abusive us ok. It’s not. Such behaviors shows a complete lack of self control and can land someone in jail.

He needs logical consequences. This was so bad, you need to keep him away from you.
You need to stay away from him, I think.

Please listen to what the others have said.

Although my daughter has been extremely difficult and impulsive and at times mean...she would hesitate to use these words ...this language.

It’s scary.

 

[Beta]

I think we all bonded so closely with our kids when they little that it's difficult to hold them to the same standards of civility and respect that we would expect from others. It takes a change of thinking and practice to develop the ability to detach and not allow their abuse. I've come a long way with Josh, but still have a ways to go. But wishing me and my husband dead and threatening to kill us, steal from us, etc. has changed me on the inside as far as how I view him and how I feel about him. I love him. I always will. But he is a stranger to me now and I am afraid of him now, which would have been inconceivable at one time. Josh rarely calls us Mom or Dad now. My husband is "your husband" if he's talking to me; and I'm "your wife" if he's talking to my husband. When he talks or texts to us directly (before he was blocked, of course) he used crude swear words. He is becoming just someone we once raised and loved in our home but who no longer is part of our family. I'm still trying to get my head wrapped around that one. There's still a resistance within me to accepting that that might just be the way it is, maybe for a while, maybe forever. I too try to remember that I'm not doing him any favors when I allow him to abuse me; it just reinforces the behavior pattern in him.

 

[Copabanana]

He is becoming just someone we once raised and loved in our home but who no longer is part of our family.

Hi Beta. Some of this is specific to Josh and his behaviors and some of it more generally applicable to almost everybody.

I think that all parents of children who become adults have to negotiate this change from inside to outside of the family. The process of becoming adults in our society involves setting up a different nuclear family, locus of control. Typically, adult children no longer live with their parents, in extended family groupings. In our society the idea of teenage rebellion seems to be have been accepted (but not welcomed) since the fifties. A function of this, has been to create the distance necessary to catapult the adult child out of the nest.

I am not normalizing Josh's behavior and I am NOT speaking about the necessary changes you are making to your relationship to him. But I think there is a way to hold Josh in your mind, even though he is acting towards you in a demeaning, violent, rejecting way, as still part of you. Not just historically but currently.

You HAVE DONE and ARE DOING every, single thing a loving mother and father could do for their troubled child. You are doing this with love and responsibility. I believe that you will continue to act from love, responsibility, as well as the necessary need to protect yourselves and Josh, from his illness and troubled behavior. This distancing is a necessary part of love, given these circumstances. All of us are negotiating relationships with children who no longer belong to us, with us, to the same extent as before. It may be less painful to think of Josh as having entered some category where he has gone away from you. I can see this. It makes what would have otherwise been intolerable, not so impossible.

 

[WiseChoices]

I think we all bonded so closely with our kids when they little that it's difficult to hold them to the same standards of civility and respect that we would expect from others. It takes a change of thinking and practice to develop the ability to detach and not allow their abuse. I've come a long way with Josh, but still have a ways to go. But wishing me and my husband dead and threatening to kill us, steal from us, etc. has changed me on the inside as far as how I view him and how I feel about him. I love him. I always will. But he is a stranger to me now and I am afraid of him now, which would have been inconceivable at one time. Josh rarely calls us Mom or Dad now. My husband is "your husband" if he's talking to me; and I'm "your wife" if he's talking to my husband. When he talks or texts to us directly (before he was blocked, of course) he used crude swear words. He is becoming just someone we once raised and loved in our home but who no longer is part of our family. I'm still trying to get my head wrapped around that one. There's still a resistance within me to accepting that that might just be the way it is, maybe for a while, maybe forever. I too try to remember that I'm not doing him any favors when I allow him to abuse me; it just reinforces the behavior pattern in him.

That is very sad, Beta . Acceptance is better than suffering, however. I have had to let go of the people who I had close relationships with. At the time, I would have never believed for one second that we would be where we are at .With both of mine, it happened when they left for University .

 

[BusynMember1]

It is much easier, natural even, to go along with the normality of letting a grown child fly the coup when the kid appreciates what you did for them, thrives, and still loves you and includes you at appropriate times. Amy, when she isn't living with us, calls almost every day just to catch up. My son works for us but still calls twice a week and is always saying he loves us and expresses concern for us. "You need me to cut the grass?"

Kay left with bitter, nasty words and now is withholding herself and our grandson because we won't "help" her in the way she wants, mainly cash. It is hard to continue to think of her as part of the family. She is never here, shows no affection when she used to be, and is forever spewing critism and even hate. She tried to hurt our son, her brother, who has sometimes given her some cash and has a huge heart.

Having had both experiences, with both kinds of .kids, I, at least, do not feel the disconnection is the same towards a loving child vs. one who is unloving. To me they are two entirely different dynamics. I fee guilty saying this.

 

[Beta]

You HAVE DONE and ARE DOING every, single thing a loving mother and father could do for their troubled child. You are doing this with love and responsibility. I believe that you will continue to act from love, responsibility, as well as the necessary need to protect yourselves and Josh, from his illness and troubled behavior. This distancing is a necessary part of love, given these circumstances.

This is comforting to me to hear this, to hear what we are currently doing, having to do, in this way.

It may be less painful to think of Josh as having entered some category where he has gone away from you.

. Copa, can you elaborate on this? I'm not sure I understand?

At the time, I would have never believed for one second that we would be where we are at

Wise--I know what you mean. I still go back and forth into a sense of shock; it feels surreal at times.

It is much easier, natural even, to go along with the normality of letting a grown child fly the coup when the kid appreciates what you did for them, thrives, and still loves you and includes you at appropriate times.

Yes, I agree. This is the normal "letting go" that, while hard for most loving parents, eventually works itself out to a loving, adult-to-adult relationship that replaces the adult-to-child relationship you previously had. We have a good relationship with our youngest son, who also lives in another state. I try very hard to keep healthy boundaries with him so he never feels that he's being treated as a child or jeopardizes our relationship with him.

 

[Copabanana]

Those of you who post here regularly know that I am struggling with a situation that is similar in ways to that of Beta in that my son, too, is mentally ill, but has not threatened me or been violent. So. Let's say I deal with 50 percent of what Beta does.

My son can be difficult, resistant, and impossible. There are times I can no longer tolerate him. But he can be loving. He loves me. He does not reject me. He needs me. He is NOT hateful. There have been periods when he calls me by my first name. He has blamed me for his life, that he did not die. But there has never been a time when I felt as if I needed to forget about him, or renounced him, or believed he was irretrievable. I have never believed there was a time when we would not have a future together as long as I live and afterwards. I am constantly thinking of how I can protect him, when I am gone.

It may be less painful to think of Josh as having entered some category where he has gone away from you.

It has been painful to me, this struggle of Beta's to deal with her son. I have urged her to make distance. But I have felt pain when I felt that the distance in her mind that she was making from Josh, seemed like it was too far. I know I don't get a vote with Josh. But it is because of the similarities of our situations that I personalize Beta's situation.

I, at least, do not feel the disconnection is the same towards a loving child vs. one who is unloving. To me they are two entirely different dynamics. I fee guilty saying this.

You see, Busy. Beta I think just has one child. I only have my son. I can't divide my children into two baskets. For me, there is only one. Tanya has only one son, too. And she has chosen to detach. I have been unwilling to do so. It could be the differences in children. It could be the differences in mothers. Or both.

I just want to say that I truly, truly understand the why and the need behind detaching from children who threaten and hurt you and your loved ones. For me, however, I would want to always believe that there could be a way back. For me there have been times when I have psychically thrown overboard my son. Those periods have been between 24 hours and maximum 3 weeks. I needed psychic safety then. But more than that, I needed my son. I need him. I need the thought of him. I need the commitment to him. He defines my life. There is no before and after with my son, for me. I have to find a way to integrate him into my life. And I always do.

But then, I have not had to cross over to a no man's land, where my son threatened to kill me, or said he wanted me dead. I don't know how that would be for me. If I have tried to counsel Beta or anybody else who to deal with this, I am wrong. Anything spoken from this from this please, would be only dread.

We, all of us, here on this forum write from our hearts, our own life stories. Much of the time there is a confluence. Sometimes, not. I want to make clear that I speak only for me.

 

[Beta]

Copa, fortunately, we do have another son, a younger son, who lives in a nearby state, for whom I am very grateful. I try even harder to show him how much we love him and are proud of him. I don't want him to ever feel like his brother has overshadowed him in our minds. But even so, the loss of Josh is so great. I hope that things will not always be like this.

 

[BusynMember1]

Oh, dear Copa, yes I have other kids so it is different. I do not know if I could let go of Kay if I did not. I had trouble letting go as things are.

But please do not misunderstand me. Even though I have other kids, I always have pictures in my mind of Kay sitting there with us, laughing over coffee, talking, doing mom/daughter things with me like shopping and most of all doing things with Jaden. I can say pretty words, but my heart is still broken. She was my first and only for many years. She is my musical one, my beautiful one, my child who can speak in front if a crowd with no fear. I can't do that, even though I must for work. Kay is my Indigo child. God gave her to me. I will always wish she could be with us. I feel worse in a way than when our child passed away because Kay is still here. But she isn't.

I don't mean to say that it is just as hard for me. I don't think it is.

But my heart still cries and, like you, I wonder about Kay after I am gone. I picture her locked up somewhere, and not in jail. I know Jaden has good people who would take him in with loving hearts so that is a lot off my mind. But I also know that Kay could end up alone, maybe locked up for her mental illness or wandering the streets, Lee having run off. Or her AND Lee could end up homeless together, getting high in Colorado. Or in CA living in a car.

It is a very uncomfortable possibility.

My husband snd I will be consulting with our attorney regarding Kay. I don't nthink anyone who adores a troubled child ever feels completely off the hook.

God bless.

 

[Copabanana]

Thank you Beta and Busy for helping me better understand what I was striving to express. When we feel we have LOST THEM entirely, what we risk losing is ourselves. That place in us where ONLY they live. That is there ONLY because of our loving them.

the loss of Josh is so great. I hope that things will not always be like this.

You see, Beta. I don't see you as having lost Josh. I think that's what I keep reacting too and trying to flag you down. Josh is still there. What you are doing now is seeing the reality of Josh now, and putting in place necessary boundaries.

Josh because he is mentally ill or otherwise disordered has made himself unsafe to you. But he is still there. He is "out there" and he is "in there" in you. This is what I keep wanting to get across What I see as my own need, perhaps, to not give up on the love and hope that has propelled me for almost 30 years. How could I?

Kay is my Indigo child. God gave her to me. I will always wish she could be with us.

This is what I mean. This space. This space in you Busy is always Kay. We are being called upon to do the impossible here. Love them when we can't like them. Love them when we can't be with them. Hope for them when they may have no hope.

It is why so many of us turn so strongly I think to spirituality. Because nothing else addresses this impossible place where we live. And this is the blessing of this all, too. Because the impossibility of our lives, cleaves us to the divine, in my case, like nothing else before.

 

[BusynMember1]

Copa, at the least your son is a gentle soul from what you have said. Troubled, perhaps, but kind inside.

I used to ruminate over what we did, specifically me, who had been with Kay more than my husband, that caused Kay to hate us, be violent, turn out to be....loveless?

I still do overthink at times, but not like I once did. If there is some deep damaged hole inside of me that I transferred to Kay, at this time in her life only she can heal herself. There is nothing anyone else can do. A person who could come so close to desperately harming or even killing her brother/my son is not safe. This was not the only time she showed violence, but it was the worst.

We have to live apart and she won't even talk to us now.

God is very important to me. He always was, but with Kay I lean on Him.

 

[Beta]

When we feel we have LOST THEM entirely, what we risk losing is ourselves. That place in us where ONLY they live. That is there ONLY because of our loving them.

Yes, this resonates with me. I think this is very insightful. They are so much a part of us that to not have them in our lives is like losing part of ourselves. I would never have seen that if you hadn't pointed it out.

You see, Beta. I don't see you as having lost Josh. I think that's what I keep reacting too and trying to flag you down. Josh is still there. What you are doing now is seeing the reality of Josh now, and putting in place necessary boundaries.

Josh because he is mentally ill or otherwise disordered has made himself unsafe to you. But he is still there. He is "out there" and he is "in there" in you.

This is a more hopeful outlook than what I have had. Just coming to the point of seeing the reality of him has been a long, two year journey. I will try to see this from your perspective. I do tend to be an "all or nothing", "black and white" type of person, so sometimes it helps when someone points out a different perspective that I haven't considered. Thank you for that.

 

[Copabanana]

They are so much a part of us that to not have them in our lives is like losing part of ourselves.

I don't think some of us can do this. Like, really, really, not having them in our lives. Those of us like this twist ourselves up into knots to try. And in doing so deny and distort what we see. This is a human reaction. In fact, it has several names. One is "cognitive dissonance." Another is an ego defense mechanism.

But I don't think we have to not have them in our lives. The physical them, has to stay away. yes. But the idea of them. Does not have to go away. That's my rallying cry.

Think about it. Most of this country is immigrants. All of my grandparents left their parents in the old country to never ever see them again in life. They left their physical parents. Their parents lost their physical children. Do you really think those mothers stopped keeping a space in their heart for loving their children and hoping they would return as long as they had breath?

But Josh is not across an ocean. He is ill. He can find treatment. He can stabilize. There is no telling how long this will take. That's true. But it is one likely scenario. I know it's hard to have hope at the same time you are pulling up the bridge across the moat. But I hope you do.

And there are the cowboys' mothers (my favorite, I don't want to forget them. I love Westerns.) Cowboy mothers had to learn to live with absent children too. I believe they waited for them. I don't think they had to close off part of their heart. Well. They may have for a while, when they were very, very sad (and mad). But I want to think their hearts opened again.

There are many ways we support and help each other here. One big way for me, is that I can better see myself through you. Actually. I have a hard time seeing myself at all. But through you I can "see" myself and actually have compassion for us both.

Beta. Through you and others here I can keep myself alive and present and realistic. A cutting edge instead o of closing myself down. It's harder (way harder) to do it alone.

I do tend to be an "all or nothing", "black and white"

I'm NOT a black and white person. But with my son, I am. It's because all of this hurts in places without words. Without reason. Kind of the wild love part of myself. Where there is nothing logical. Everything about this hurts in a way that I fear I cannot bear. If I remember you guys are here. I am not so afraid.

If we have each other we can face this. That's what we are doing. Holding hands.

 

[Copabanana]

If there is some deep damaged hole inside of me that I transferred to Kay

Busy. I think all of us have this place. I know I have it, but I was able to run from it my whole life until this trouble with my son, and the death of my Mother.

I think our adopted kids have it in such a way that they can't run away from it. This is both a blessing and a curse. Because they can't run. They have to deal. Or not.

I think I hurt my son by filling my deep damaged part with him. With my love for him. Now I think this deep place is where G-d is for me. That's the blessing of this. For me.

 

[LauraH]

When my son first came back to Florida, presumably to get clean, but was still using he sent me a nasty message on Facebook saying I was hindering his recovery and he was cutting me out of his life. And some other nasty hurtful things. He then blocked me on Facebook, our only means of communication at the time. Two days later he texted me from an unknown number asking me to call him an Uber and loan him $20. Seriously? I'm cut out of your life, remember? You don't get to talk to me that way and then ask for favors.

I know it's hard to resist paying your son's phone bill...I know all too well the agony of having no way to contact your loved one...but please don't give in to his "I hate you, you piece of garbage, now do me a favor" routine. You don't deserve that treatment and he doesn't deserve your help following his tirade. Trust me, even without a phone your son will find a way to contact you.

 

[JayPee]

I see you are a veteran of this behavior too. Very sad isn’t it?

I’ve been praying for discernment and I’m getting stronger. I have a long way to go but pushing through the hurt and fear. I appreciate your advice.

I’ll keep praying that your son makes the right choice for his future.

 

[LauraH]

I’ll keep praying that your son makes the right choice for his future.

Read my earlier post of today and get an idea of the kind of choices he's making. I'm so tired of seeing a glimmer of hope...he was doing so well, staying clean, holding down a job, his whole attitude, demeanor, and even appearance had changed...and I think, he's turned the corner or about to do so. Then addiction and mental illness rears its ugly head again and he's paving the road for more disaster and heartache. I will never stop praying that he will chart a positive course and stick with it but I no longer have any real hope that that will happen.

 

[JayPee]

Gosh. I hear you loud and clear. I’m only at the beginning of letting go of enabling. My two sons would be happy if I would just keep taking care of them. Honestly the last proud moment and only one I can remember having was when younger son graduated from the Marine Corp. that was 7 years ago. I thought he was on a the best path ever. All it’s been since he’s been medically discharged is drugs and irresponsibility. When he graduated he had thousands of dollars from being paid and really no where to spend while in boot camp. When he got out it was all used up in no time. He had lots of friends to smoke pot with and drink that used up his $ in no time.

No progress since or with 30 yr old. Much of the same old same ol.

I guess for me it’s easier to share my thoughts of hope with others than have any for my own sons but I’ll try to remember not to write the end of the story just yet.