I had to say it...

[Copabanana]

and warn him. I feel as though we should say, one more time

But the fact is, I've said this. I already have said this.

Lil. In all of this we are twins.

I am of a truly divided mind. On the one hand, I believe that our sons need the lesson to be repeated over and over. That it is not just manipulation, and wanting their cake and to eat it too. But it is that, too.

I have seen my son respond to suffering. He knows really knows he does not want to be a vagrant, homeless anymore. Whether it is a coincidence or not, I do not know, but his attitude is infinitely changed. He is kinder, caring, loving and cooperative. He wants to work with us--to a point.

I asked him to leave by today. Because he is flaunting commitments we have insisted upon and I believe by indulging him, we are enabling. If I allow him to fudge, to slide and slip, I am empowering that part of him that is weak and immature and irresponsible.

What I think has to be present in both cases is the want, desire and drive to change, make better choices, live a different life.

My son has this but not enough of it, not to the extent I had it. But he is not me. He is somebody who has been determined to be mentally ill to the point where he is unable to work. Possibly limited motivation is a symptom of his illness, and poor judgment too.

So our case is cloudy. I cannot have the expectations of him that I would have for myself and for somebody without the compromises that he seemingly has.

And yet, I cannot, will not, knowingly enable him to not reach the potential he does have. He has shown me he can change. How can I through my actions limit that incentive to change?

To what extent is is possible to work with them in this know man's land of getting there but not?

Until they thirst for change

Change is an abstraction. He has not yet demonstrated the capacity or desire to conform to rules imposed by others.

sometimes it is our denial of that, the denial of just how helpless we are to change another, that makes us embrace the fantasy that we can.

This is true.

So we are back to Lil's and my (different but similar) quandarys. If I accept that I cannot change my son, how do I know if he has reached his limit at this point of time, in understanding his situation and remedying it.

 

[Copabanana]

I WANT him to be able to stay until he's ready - but he has to be TRYING. He just isn't really. Not like he needs to be.

Then there is Jabber. It is both easier and harder when there are two of us. I feel a responsibility to M.

 

[Lil]

Then there is Jabber. It is both easier and harder when there are two of us. I feel a responsibility to M.

Jabber is definitely the harder of the two of us. Not that it doesn't hurt him, but I'm sure that when the day comes we have to send him out the door, it will be easier on him.

I was just going thru my texts. My stupid phone only keeps 3 weeks worth, so I don't have the first one I sent him, telling him he had the option of coming home. I wish I did. I'd like to know exactly what we said. But I do have another one where I reminded him that, when the apartment is open, job or no job, he's out.

He can't say he didn't know it was coming.

I wish that made me feel better.

 

[TheWalrus]

In my dynamic, I am the stronger one. My husband is the softy, more easily manipulated, more eager to believe her and give her more and more chances. And he is not her biological father. Yet that is his disposition with everyone - to see the best, to choose to ignore and truly not see the worst. I am more jaded, more guarded, less likely to believe without real proof. I am more likely to go into survival mode and he is more likely to make himself a martyr if he thinks any good may come from it. So our yin and yang struggle is the opposite side of your coin.

I think our children make us all feel divided. Divided between what we want to see and what we see. Divided between reality and fantasy. Divided between parental instinct and common sense. Divided between heart and head. That is my biggest division: what my head knows vs. what my heart feels.

 

[DarkwingPsyduck]

Jabber is definitely the harder of the two of us. Not that it doesn't hurt him, but I'm sure that when the day comes we have to send him out the door, it will be easier on him.

I was just going thru my texts. My stupid phone only keeps 3 weeks worth, so I don't have the first one I sent him, telling him he had the option of coming home. I wish I did. I'd like to know exactly what we said. But I do have another one where I reminded him that, when the apartment is open, job or no job, he's out.

He can't say he didn't know it was coming.

I wish that made me feel better.

You might be surprised by how common it is for an addict to be taken advantage of. I think it has something to do with all the guilt involved in that game. Almost like we can make up for it by letting ourselves be taken advantage of. I know I did it a lot, too. For that very reason. Desperately trying to salvage the small amount of self respect I had left. I realized, eventually, that it doesn't work that way. Generosity is a good thing, but it does NOTHING to help solve the problems. One good deed does not just get you off the hook for a bad deed. Plus, it seems unfair to be handing out money to everybody BUT the people he has continually hurt.

 

[Childofmine]

This is a very interesting thing that you say here Darkwing. I saw this played out with my son. He protected homeless people on the street---a good thing----at the same time he continued to do "bad things".

Generosity is a good thing, but it does NOTHING to help solve the problems. One good deed does not just get you off the hook for a bad deed.

A backward type of morality, but I guess to some extent we all practice this type of "magical thinking."

 

[so ready to live]

Hi Lil.

So our case is cloudy. I cannot have the expectations of him that I would have for myself and for somebody without the compromises that he seemingly has.

So agree, Our son is 28 and the hardest part is wondering if he's really capable. At one point he had ssi (for 5yr) then they determined him to be ineligible.
Yet, my expectations were that he be honest and at least try (to try to get sober, get work, be respectful)...he didn't do that.

I asked him to leave by today. Because he is flaunting commitments we have insisted upon and I believe by indulging him, we are enabling. If I allow him to fudge, to slide and slip, I am empowering that part of him that is weak and immature and irresponsible.

Also so agree. No, I understand that my son will not become a rocket scientist (neither will I) but I only hoped for a functioning member of society. But that's on him.

He protected homeless people on the street---a good thing----at the same time he continued to do "bad things".

We once had an appearingly homeless man stop by the business we have to ask whatever happened to that kid that gave him the winter gloves? What does a parent do with that? I hung on to it to have something to be proud of.
My hubs dug out an old prayer journal the other day. We found that in 2004, the concerns for him were the same. It was helpful to read, in the sense that we realized how loooong this had gone on.....without change until recently. The change now ---us. We don't know where our son is as no contact for 7 wks since he was told to leave. Do I ck. arrest records, news reports-sure. I choose to believe that he is out there finding his way thanks to Leafy's suggestion. I hang on this. But only by a thread. So hard. Prayers.

 

[Lil]

You might be surprised by how common it is for an addict to be taken advantage of. I think it has something to do with all the guilt involved in that game. Almost like we can make up for it by letting ourselves be taken advantage of. I know I did it a lot, too. For that very reason. Desperately trying to salvage the small amount of self respect I had left. I realized, eventually, that it doesn't work that way. Generosity is a good thing, but it does NOTHING to help solve the problems. One good deed does not just get you off the hook for a bad deed. Plus, it seems unfair to be handing out money to everybody BUT the people he has continually hurt.

An interesting perspective.

I wouldn't classify my son as an "addict" - defined by having either a physical or psychological dependence on a substance - he certainly has the capacity (and genetics) to become one if he isn't careful. I'm positive he steers clear of most hard drugs - I've seen him refuse to take narcotics that were prescribed for pain, he didn't like how they made him feel - but he is very fond of the herb without doubt.

But given the way we raised him, there's no way he could do what he does without guilt unless he's literally a sociopath. I KNOW he must feel guilty for stealing from us, from lying to us, for sneaking around and doing things he knows we disapprove of.

Not enough to stop him from doing it again of course.

 

[BusynMember]

To Darkwing: curious about your take on this.

Is somebody who constantly has pot in his system an addict to you? Does it depend on how well they function? We all know that many pot users consider it help for anxiety. What do you think? I don't know what I think. I'm back and forth. I take anxiety/depression medication and don't consider myself an addict, but I need to take it to function. Heck, to stay alive.

My medications however improve my function and motivation because deep depression is very debilitating. Does pot help some people in the same way?

 

[AppleCori]

Maybe you could put your son to work on some of the unfinished projects you have around the house? Cleaning out the basement/garage or other things you need done?

He can either earn his keep or find a job? Maybe he will work harder on the job search if he has a more unpleasant task as an alternative?

 

[Lil]

Maybe you could put your son to work on some of the unfinished projects you have around the house? Cleaning out the basement/garage or other things you need done?

He can either earn his keep or find a job? Maybe he will work harder on the job search if he has a more unpleasant task as an alternative?

That would be fine if he were staying, but we don't want him to earn his keep...we want him working and OUT!

 

[DarkwingPsyduck]

To Darkwing: curious about your take on this.

Is somebody who constantly has pot in his system an addict to you? Does it depend on how well they function? We all know that many pot users consider it help for anxiety. What do you think? I don't know what I think. I'm back and forth. I take anxiety/depression medication and don't consider myself an addict, but I need to take it to function. Heck, to stay alive.

My medications however improve my function and motivation because deep depression is very debilitating. Does pot help some people in the same way?

Are you asking me to define addiction in the clinical sense, or to describe it in my own way?

Addiction is more than physical dependency. People can be addicted to things that don't cause physical withdrawal when stopped. Addiction is a psychological thing. While it is usually associated with substances that cause physical dependency, that is not a requirment. Gambling addiction being the perfect example. One does now get physically ill once they stop gambling, but it is EVERY bit an addiction that heroin is.

I have no issue with pot one way, or the other. It is not as bad physically as alcohol, nicotine, or heroin. Somebody can be addicted to pot, however. When it stops being recreation, and starts being a coping mechanism, you are on a VERY slippery slope. Addicts do not function properly without whatever they are addicted to.

I know your son is not an addict, Li'l. He merely displays MANY of the same symptoms. It shows in his way of thinking more than anything else. I do not have experience as a parent, only as an addict. And I recognize behaviors that I myself display. Be it the cause of my addiction, or not. I am sorry if you think I am intentionally being offensive by comparing him to an addict. I am not. It is great that he isn't an actual drug addict. And you're right, he has the personality traits that make him much more likely to develop addiction. It sneaks up on you. I wasn't always an addict, but I was always at risk of becoming one.

There are those that are capable of using substances purely for recreation, without it ever becoming a real problem. The kind of people who can smoke a joint at the end of the week, or a few beers after work, etc. Then there are those like myself. It starts out recreational, but doesn't stay that way. My mother was a long time drug addict, and my dad is a useless, violent, drunk bastard. Me developing substance abuse problems was pretty likely.

 

[DarkwingPsyduck]

To Darkwing: curious about your take on this.

Is somebody who constantly has pot in his system an addict to you? Does it depend on how well they function? We all know that many pot users consider it help for anxiety. What do you think? I don't know what I think. I'm back and forth. I take anxiety/depression medication and don't consider myself an addict, but I need to take it to function. Heck, to stay alive.

My medications however improve my function and motivation because deep depression is very debilitating. Does pot help some people in the same way?

Taking substances to improve function is perfectly acceptable. And studies show that pot can, indeed, be of benefit for some. Not denying that. That isn't the same thing as addiction, though. Sure, once we are addicted, we cannot function without our substance. That is not the same thing as taking something for depression. Depression is a result of a chemical imbalance in the brain. You do not take SSRI's recreationally. You take them to improve quality of life. Drug addicts take drugs because they don't know how to cope in their right mind.

You had depression issues before you started taking your medication. It is NOT a result of rampant drug use, which itself results in the perceived need of a mind altering substance. If you stop taking your medications, you will still have the depression problem. Since an addict's problem are a result of drug use, stopping actually improves our situation. While stopping for you would be detrimental.

 

[TheWalrus]

I agree. Addiction is psychological and some are more predispositioned to becoming an addict. I think that the younger you are when you start something, the more vulnerable you are to addiction as your brain is undergoing so many changes that creates a fertile environment for addiction. I don't know many people who pick up smoking later in life. Not to say that age protects you from addiction. I just think many things factor in - age, environment, genetics, predisposition... I never drank as a teen and rarely as a young adult. Too broke and tired raising kids. I drink occasionally now but only socially and not to excess. Alcoholism is foreign to me and my mindset, as is any addiction.

 

[BusynMember]

thanks, dark wing, I appreciate your post.

 

[Lil]

I know your son is not an addict, Li'l. He merely displays MANY of the same symptoms. It shows in his way of thinking more than anything else. I do not have experience as a parent, only as an addict. And I recognize behaviors that I myself display. Be it the cause of my addiction, or not. I am sorry if you think I am intentionally being offensive by comparing him to an addict. I am not. It is great that he isn't an actual drug addict. And you're right, he has the personality traits that make him much more likely to develop addiction. It sneaks up on you. I wasn't always an addict, but I was always at risk of becoming one.

Please don't think you offended me. I am not offended in any way and I completely agree with you!!! My son's biological father was an alcoholic. He was not violent, but definitely useless. I spend half his life warning him about alcohol. Never occurred to me to warn about drugs, I thought that went without saying. Stupid of me.

There was a time I would have said my son was actively addicted to pot. The summer after high school he was obviously stoned several times per week. I wouldn't be surprised if he was smoking every day. That was also the period when he was stealing from us. He once told me it was the ONLY time he was happy. He did it because he wanted to feel happy for just a little while. That certainly sounds like addiction to me! We got him therapy, which did exactly nothing. He went off to college and failed and stayed stoned for a year, then came home. There was much less going on at that time, but he again stole from us and that was when we put him out. That was almost 2 years ago.

He has gotten MUCH better since. And I know, once an addict, always an addict, but there was a long period of time when he seem to be abstaining completely. Probably because he didn't have any money. Maybe because he had his girl and his own place and just really didn't need it. So...maybe he was addicted, maybe he is, maybe he's not. I don't know.

Whichever, he definitely is walking a frighteningly fine line.

 

[Lil]

I don't know many people who pick up smoking later in life

Depending on your definition of "later", I think I qualify. I was in law school. Probably 22 or so.

I was one of those people Darkwing mentioned, who actually could do a lot of stuff recreationally without becoming addicted. In fact, for many, many, many years, I smoked without addiction - which is really something considering how addictive nicotine is. I smoked for several years, quit, then could bum a smoke now and then, one or two cigarettes occasionally and not want one again for months. Eventually I'd start again. Jabber and I quit once for 8 years. When we started again, that was when I finally was truly hooked. It was only in the last few years that I physically, or even psychologically, wanted cigarettes. We quit again in January, but I still find myself craving them when stressed. I never craved them before.

I drank as a teen, thru college, law school, and as a practicing lawyer I used to go out for drinks most every night after work (pre-child). But I never became an alcoholic. I didn't mind a bit not drinking. Still don't. I enjoy it, but I drink pretty infrequently. Jabber is the same way.

My best friend, however, is an alcoholic, like her father and her brother. Sober now, but she drank no more than I did until nearly 30...when she couldn't stop. Genetics are scary things.

 

[Lil]

Got a text a bit ago, he now has a part-time job twirling a sign for a cell phone company by the roadside. I guess he works the days J doesn't. He starts tomorrow. It's an easy job and pays $8/hr, but won't have enough hours to pay the bills. Still...it's something.

Hopefully he'll keep looking for another job, something more stable.

 

[Copabanana]

twirling a sign for a cell phone company by the roadside.

Good.

M and I have such admiration for those guys. It is noble work. I wish my son would do it.

 

[DarkwingPsyduck]

Got a text a bit ago, he now has a part-time job twirling a sign for a cell phone company by the roadside. I guess he works the days J doesn't. He starts tomorrow. It's an easy job and pays $8/hr, but won't have enough hours to pay the bills. Still...it's something.

Hopefully he'll keep looking for another job, something more stable.

Yes, I have yet to meet an addict that started out with the intention of becoming a junkie. If one exists, his issues run MUCH deeper than mine, or anybody else I have ever known. I mean, that's basically psychological masochism, or something. It isn't always about ignorance, though. I am not a stupid person. I NEVER put anything into my system that I didn't research well beforehand. When I first started using pills, I had read up on them. I became more knowledgeable than most pharmacists I have spoken to. And, with addiction running so deep in my family, I knew what that was. I knew how physical dependency occurred with opiates, and I knew the symptoms of withdrawal before I ever took a pill. Yet, I was still surprised when it finally hit me that I was addicted. The words I read simply didn't do it justice. It is something one must experience to truly grasp. Before that, it is all just words. I can pinpoint the very first physical withdrawal symptom I ever felt. Restless legs. Horrible, uncomfortable thing. Basically, you always feel the need to move your legs. But ONLY when you try to rest. The moment you sit or lay down, you have to move them. It is unbearable, and is what prevents sleep. It doesn't matter how tired your legs are. I would try to work out my legs until they felt like jello. Til it hurt to stand up. And the moment I laid down, it was there. All I did was make it much more painful. One night, I spent 8 hours walking in circles around my block. Without stopping once. I really wish I would have wised up the first time I experienced that, but I didn't... Just got more pills to "fix" the problem. I am not stupid, or insane. But my drug addiction made me do stupid, insane .

One need not use every day to be addicted. Most do, though. I had to take drugs just to feel human. I sincerely hope your son never falls into this pit. As I can see, he has plenty of issues without adding drug addiction to the mix. Then again, so did I. And STILL added drug addiction to the mix....