I miss my sister...for the first time in say 55 years.

[Copabanana]

Sorry Elizabethanne and everygody, that I went on and on. You all really, really helped me achieve understanding and acceptance, about the situation i face, but most of all, myself.

 

[elizabethanne]

No need to apologize. I know I'm not the only one that appreciates your honesty...and courage. One thing that has probably helped you cope is that you are able to lay it all out so clearly. That's a gift Copa.

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

I just realized your name is Copabanana.

Not Copacabana.

Ha!!!

I love it.

:O)

Copabanana.



Cedar

P.S. So, changing to a colored font does not get rid of italics, either.

Very pretty, though.

 

[elizabethanne]

I just realized your name is Copabanana.

Not Copacabana.

Ha!!!

I love it.

:O)

Copabanana.



Cedar

P.S. So, changing to a colored font does not get rid of italics, either.

Very pretty, though.

I know Cedar, I didn't catch the banana part either until yesterday! "Copa" fits her just right though.

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

So, Copa, to do multiquotes:

Highlight the quote you want. A little box will come up with "reply" or "quote".

I hit reply.

Hitting quote will work, too.

Where your cursor was left in your response is where the quote will appear in the body of your response.

I had lots of trouble with that, too.

Please do respond at length if you like, Copa. I learn so much about myself posting to others, or receiving their posts and tasting the depths of something I might have passed by.

Sometimes, there is much that is good and healing in those things we pass by too quickly.

Cedar

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

What we want most is to understand and to be understood.

In my life, there are people who, by definition as mother or sister, can be perceived as people who must love me. People I could, by definition through their roles in my life, assume to have my best interests at heart.

But there are people who are wired differently than we are.

They have only their own best interests at heart.

They are not working toward the same picture we are.

Maybe, that is true.

Whereas my picture may look like my sister and I swinging on the roof of a restaurant on the Gulf while the sun goes down, hers may look like ~ I don't know. I don't know what hers needs to look like for it to feel complete to her. But I do know it has something to do with exclusion, and with eye rolling, and with proving something I don't understand as a win.

It definitely continues to have something to do with devaluing and uniting to exclude my brothers...or to create legitimacy in excluding them, or to present a united front in excluding them.

And really, with hating and condemning one of them right out in the open and taking some kind of regretful superiority from that.

Same thing with my mom, minus the regretful part. She relishes hating that particular brother, and dominating the other.

The brother she hates so passionately, now that I think about it, defied her.

Boy did he.

:O)

I never thought of it that way before.

I will have to tell him that.

Anyway, their happy picture needs to look like something that seems mean and stupidly wrong, to me.

Toxic pond stuff.

Differently wired, like those articles SWOT posted for us described. According to the articles, things are the way they are between us because they were always hard wired differently than we are. That is why they can (or maybe, have to?) behave as they do.

So a phone call is just a signal, to them, to let the games begin. But it is always the same game. So the question then becomes why we cannot just let that be what is real. Why do we persist in believing we will all come together in the end?

That is our hard wiring, perhaps.

Why would a person judge whatever we have given them negatively, other than that it came from us. Elizabethanne, could it be true that your sister will condemn you no matter what you do or do not do?

Could it be true that the more perfectly you respond to her, the more damning her condemnation?

I think they hate us. There is nothing personal in it, either. Perhaps because of their wiring we are perceived as a threat, and hatred is a reflex, for them.

I think nlj is correct. It is hard to accept it, but it is what it undeniably does appear to be.

There will be no coming together. If there is, it will be only an invitation to let the games begin.

Cedar

I am not even going to say my usual "What kind of person thinks this way." I am probably right.

What to hay.

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

OK. We are getting somewhere, here. I feel I deserve her punishment, because I judged her most of our lives, and did not give her a chance to have a relationship with me. I feared her. I felt I did not have the skills and protections to have a reciprocal relationship with her.

I can see that now with my mother dead, my sister is the only tie to the past, to my story, and particularly to my Mother.

Oh, Copa.

None of us deserves punishment. What we do deserve is to be mistaken sometimes, and to be forgiven sometimes, and to forgive sincerely when we can, and not to be judged harshly or manipulated or tricked or pinched by those we allow into our inner circle.

None of us is perfect except for me.

:O)

When you say you judged her Copa, what do you mean? It may be that what you really mean is that you took her at her word.

There is a book, Copa. The Sociopath Next Door. I think that is it. It was written by a retired FBI agent. In it, he describes famous criminals and what guidelines those who identify and capture them use to find and imprison them.

He describes lack of conscience, or sense of entitlement, or outright sociopathy, as a continuum.

You may have been, and probably were, very right to fear her, Copa. Not because she could hurt you, but because she would.

And on some level, you still know that true thing.

We can all hurt one another if we think about it hard enough. But not all of us would do it. To most of us, knowing we could hurt someone calls forth our protective instincts.

Those without those protective instincts are called bullies. Bullies will abuse as soon as they know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that they will not lose the fight they intend to pick. Bullies even abuse their own babies and their children and their animals.

Go figure that one.

It happens every day.

I can see that now with my mother dead, my sister is the only tie to the past, to my story, and particularly to my Mother.

You are vulnerable now, Copa.

Take time. Post here. Go slowly. Here is a story that may or may not be true for you:

Once there was a fox. She began crossing a turbulent river when she heard a tiny voice calling for help on the shore. She turned back, the beautiful red-tailed fox.

The voice was coming from a wicked looking scorpion whose intention, so she told the beautiful fox, was to cross the river.

But everyone knows scorpions cannot swim turbulent rivers.

"Why don't you let me ride on your head while you swim across?" the deadly scorpion asked the beautiful fox. "Well, because I'm not stupid." the fox replied. "You are a scorpion. You could sting me in the eye the second I get you across the river and safely on the other side. In fact," the fox mused, "you could only be pretending you want to cross the river, because you have heard how soft-hearted I am. But what you really want is to sting me so I will die."

Taking pity on the scorpion when she began to cry, the beautiful red tailed fox began carrying the scorpion across the river. The beautiful fox felt worse and worse as they approached the other shore, because she had believed such terrible things about the scorpion and they turned out not to have been true after all.

Just then, just as they reached the other shore, the scorpion stung the beautiful, red tailed fox. Before the beautiful fox hit the ground, the scorpion moved into position and stung the dying fox in the other eye.

"But...why?" the no longer beautiful, dying fox gasped.

"You knew I was a scorpion when you took me on." the scorpion hissed.

And the fox died, and the scorpion went on about her day.

No one knows who she got to bring her back across the river. But we can be very sure, someone did.

. I tried to tell her, Mama. Please do not not suffer so. Please.

She replied, "you would, I know you would." I shut my mouth. I knew she had to say the words out loud and that I had to bear them. My Mother said to me, "Susie, you always told me she was like this and I didn't believe you." What could I say, I smiled a sad smile, as if to say: Mama, it's okay. This is the way life is. There is no other life, than this. Let's forgive her and each other, Mama.

Scorpions relish forgiveness. It softens and flavors the flesh.

I am glad you were there with your mother at the end. You did the right thing. What happened between your mother and your sister is not your responsibility. Empathic people tend to take on the pain of those they are trying to help.

Which are the actions, the concrete things you might do, to heal this terrible sadness, Copa?

Would it be possible for you to sit quietly tomorrow morning as the sun rises?

There is nothing you need to do.

Healed is our natural state, something our minds and bodies gravitate toward naturally.

The only thing you might try to do is not think of your sister. If thoughts of her come, let them go their way. If you do this, Copa, tell me whether the birds where you are fall quiet just after the sun is fully risen.

They do, here where I watch the sun rise.

Cedar

 

[Copabanana]

Oh, Cedar, you leave me without words. Thank you.

 

[elizabethanne]

Oh, Copa.

None of us deserves punishment. What we do deserve is to be mistaken sometimes, and to be forgiven sometimes, and to forgive sincerely when we can, and not to be judged harshly or manipulated or tricked or pinched by those we allow into our inner circle.

None of us is perfect except for me.

:O)

When you say you judged her Copa, what do you mean? It may be that what you really mean is that you took her at her word.

There is a book, Copa. The Sociopath Next Door. I think that is it. It was written by a retired FBI agent. In it, he describes famous criminals and what guidelines those who identify and capture them use to find and imprison them.

He describes lack of conscience, or sense of entitlement, or outright sociopathy, as a continuum.

You may have been, and probably were, very right to fear her, Copa. Not because she could hurt you, but because she would.

And on some level, you still know that true thing.

We can all hurt one another if we think about it hard enough. But not all of us would do it. To most of us, knowing we could hurt someone calls forth our protective instincts.

Those without those protective instincts are called bullies. Bullies will abuse as soon as they know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that they will not lose the fight they intend to pick. Bullies even abuse their own babies and their children and their animals.

Go figure that one.

It happens every day.



You are vulnerable now, Copa.

Take time. Post here. Go slowly. Here is a story that may or may not be true for you:

Once there was a fox. She began crossing a turbulent river when she heard a tiny voice calling for help on the shore. She turned back, the beautiful red-tailed fox.

The voice was coming from a wicked looking scorpion whose intention, so she told the beautiful fox, was to cross the river.

But everyone knows scorpions cannot swim turbulent rivers.

"Why don't you let me ride on your head while you swim across?" the deadly scorpion asked the beautiful fox. "Well, because I'm not stupid." the fox replied. "You are a scorpion. You could sting me in the eye the second I get you across the river and safely on the other side. In fact," the fox mused, "you could only be pretending you want to cross the river, because you have heard how soft-hearted I am. But what you really want is to sting me so I will die."

Taking pity on the scorpion when she began to cry, the beautiful red tailed fox began carrying the scorpion across the river. The beautiful fox felt worse and worse as they approached the other shore, because she had believed such terrible things about the scorpion and they turned out not to have been true after all.

Just then, just as they reached the other shore, the scorpion stung the beautiful, red tailed fox. Before the beautiful fox hit the ground, the scorpion moved into position and stung the dying fox in the other eye.

"But...why?" the no longer beautiful, dying fox gasped.

"You knew I was a scorpion when you took me on." the scorpion hissed.

And the fox died, and the scorpion went on about her day.

No one knows who she got to bring her back across the river. But we can be very sure, someone did.





Scorpions relish forgiveness. It softens and flavors the flesh.

I am glad you were there with your mother at the end. You did the right thing. What happened between your mother and your sister is not your responsibility. Empathic people tend to take on the pain of those they are trying to help.

Which are the actions, the concrete things you might do, to heal this terrible sadness, Copa?

Would it be possible for you to sit quietly tomorrow morning as the sun rises?

There is nothing you need to do.

Healed is our natural state, something our minds and bodies gravitate toward naturally.

The only thing you might try to do is not think of your sister. If thoughts of her come, let them go their way. If you do this, Copa, tell me whether the birds where you are fall quiet just after the sun is fully risen.

They do, here where I watch the sun rise.

Cedar

I am so confused...how do you know the difference between people being human, and making mistakes and being scorpians, that we must steer clear of, lest they sting our eyes out?
The woman I was talking about earlier, isn't my sister. It is a former landlord, turned friend. I was with her when her mother, my new mother of 5 years passed away. She unraveled emotionally over the next year, couldn't make her way into the workforce to take care of herself and her 3 Labs, though I tried to support with my time, referring her to a great paying job, and over-all companionship. When I didn't offer monetary support, she shut me out, got evicted and left town without saying goodbye. She relayed to her cousin that I abandoned her in her need because I didn't offer her...I don't know...money or some other kind of support.
So, she heard I was concerned and called. I texted her back and said I would call her after my work week when I was rested and clear. So, I am trying to be as open as I can because she is in crisis, whether it is self-induced or not, she is in pain. Is she a scorpion? I don't know. She was nurturing with food, Scrabble (miss that fix!) and laughter and had an open door policy when her Mom was alive, and even let me work off rent for 2 weeks was laid off as her tenant 6 years ago. She feels she "kept me in my home" and I am not paying it forward. She allowed me to clean her units and pull weeds and clean her carpets and cut her and Mom's hair to pay my rent for 1/2 a month in 2009. She was able to do this because she had the luxury of living on her mother's money...I was grateful for the hand up, but I gave more than I ever took as a tenant, neighbor, friend.
All that to say that in my recent disappointments and loss with relationships that I thought had real substance and value, I realized something about myself. I was starting to have a tendency to make people either all good, or all bad.
I just don't want to demonize people.
I don't want to make them wrong anymore, because that just makes me feel "right".
And that's just a little too close to righteous for my taste.
I don't long for connection with this lady--not with the way she's treated me, blamed me for not being there for her.
I do miss the way we bonded and pulled together when Mom was alive, through her illness in her passing and in HER grief. From there, it's been about her. Her emotional pain, her physical pain, her sad life, her being betrayed by the world and her inability to hold down a job, to take care of herself and her 4 huge Labs after squandering Mom's money and losing it all (which is why I didn't offer money).
All that to say I'm not sure where I hope this conversation goes today. She is very manipulative and more histrionic than ever (can't stand that). She is a Scorpio and yes, I have felt the sting on more than one occasion--but I would be every bit the drama queen she is if I were to to say she intended to sting my eyes out!
Maybe I just want closure and just want her to know that I wish her well.
Or, maybe I intend to set her straight and tell the truth about what I've observed over the last 5 years. And how dare she say I betrayed her in some way. The truth is while I have made my share of mistakes, I am not unkind, uncaring or abandoning, to anyone that I have ever care about.
I feel too tired to defend myself (or state the facts, rather) but too insulted to let her skip over it and/or perpetuate her "elizabethanne betrayed me" story, even if only in her own head.
I already know that I can do without the friendship or the drama.
I just want to find closure in a healthy way. See my part in it. As I write this, I think I just want to understand and be understood, before I move on.

 

[Copabanana]

ElizabethAnne, I do not know how to tell a Scorpion, but I guess I know how to feel one. But, before I get there, I need to respond to something you wrote. We are not obligated to give people money, whether they are good or bad risks. I inherited a very little bit of money. How people know this, I am not sure. Since then i have been asked by people who are little more than strangers, for $5000 to pay legal fees for an adult child, $20000 for a down payment on a property, and $25000 to help someone avoid foreclosure.. In each case I was assured there would be no risk.

The issue for me is not risk. It is boundaries and the fact that I am trying to learn to simplify and enrich my life. My goal is not to enmesh and take on problems that are not mine, or those of my loved ones.

The woman facing foreclosure volunteered to forfeit her home, if she missed 2 payments. GREAT. Just want I want from life--to take away somebody's home to satisfy a debt. Are people NUTS?

What I think is the common denominator is this. (I know this thanks to my boyfriend.) He says I present *falsely a picture of docility, generosity and goodness, and that people think they can do with me what they want and that I will make all their wishes come true. WONDERFUL. Thankfully, I am a bit more complicated than I look at first glance.

What I want is to learn to live well. By that I mean, a little bit of pleasure and self esteem every day, and to make a nice home and life for myself and a man who is good to me. I have lived with ambition...and still have it....but I am trying to make it wait, for now.

About how to distinguish between humans and scorpions. This is what Cedar wrote:

None of us deserves punishment. What we do deserve is to be mistaken sometimes, and to be forgiven sometimes, and to forgive sincerely when we can, and not to be judged harshly or manipulated or tricked or pinched by those we allow into our inner circle.

Honestly, ElizabethAnne I do not even sense where you may have made a mistake...what I see is a woman (with the labs) who accepted your many kindnesses, and people addicted to them...and became enraged when she needed more than you could give. Look at the situation objectively--was she not thoughtlessly,unconsciously bingeing everywhere in her life, without thought of the consequences? Could your giving have stopped this? Could have anything stopped her?

Is it realistic to expect that she will participate in the truthseeking, responsibility-taking process? Does she want to? Are you willing to limit your expectations to what might be probable?

As I write this I remember a painful event of 45 years ago, that has always stayed with me. I was a very young woman living on my own and working in a big City. I was staying in one of those women's residences that were soon to go by the wayside, with the societal changes that were soon to arrive. There was an older woman resident who had a physical disability, perhaps it was a stroke, or maybe some kind of palsy. But the result was she could not speak well, or eat properly...you get the picture. I was kind to her. Why? Because I am kind. She came to demand my kindness. Being kind, and young, and without defenses, I felt no way to protect myself from her demands, and her anger. I withdrew. She became angry. Dramatically angry. In effect, she threw fits. If I did not sit with her to eat. She cried. The more she did this the more I stayed away, and the farther away I stayed.

This was a powerful lesson for a young woman. For many years I was very, very careful about offering kindness to vulnerable people UNLESS there was some way out, that did not involve the need to set a boundary. Because I had learned once in-- needy people sometimes do not let you out....without punishment.

I find it more than a little interesting, that I felt myself unable to set boundaries, preferring instead to not let in people at all.

If your friend, or the woman in my example, interpret our actions as betrayals, who are we to argue? In your case, it appears you set a boundary....in my case....I ran from a situation I did not have the emotional tools to handle. I was hardly more than a girl. Give me a break...

To me, these people are not Scorpions, not cruel. But really, what is the difference? If we hold other people responsible...for our pain, whatever it is...is this not dangerous?

Maybe you and I are alike in this way....it is hard to bear that somebody near us feels we have caused them pain....But really why is this so hard to bear? Why is saying no such a capital offense?

 

[BusynMember]

I don't excuse not letting somebody go. But I do know people who can't or maybe one can say don't know how to let people go. They will do anything, and I do mean anything, to get them to stay. And sometimes they cling to people who were once kind to them and sometimes they cling to people who are cruel to them. (I did this with my mother, but have since learned).

They don't know how.

That when it is our duty to do it, for our sake and for theirs.

 

[Copabanana]

I let my Mother go. (Thankfully, I found a more moderate stance....half way through my life.) Why, I ask, did I need to let her go, at all?

Because it was easier to judge HER when it was I who did not have the skills?
Because I did not know how to tolerate love and anger together?
Because I did not know how to be me, when she was around...(was there no ME when she was around?)

The mistake of my life, I say now. But, then, it felt the only way to have a life.

 

[elizabethanne]

I don't excuse not letting somebody go. But I do know people who can't or maybe one can say don't know how to let people go. They will do anything, and I do mean anything, to get them to stay. And sometimes they cling to people who were once kind to them and sometimes they cling to people who are cruel to them. (I did this with my mother, but have since learned)

I let my Mother go? (Thankfully, I found a more moderate stance....half way through my life.) Why, I ask, did I need to let her go, at all?

Because it was easier to judge HER when it was I who did not have the skills?
Because I did not know how to tolerate love and anger together?
Because I did not know how to be me, when she was around...(was there no ME when she was around?)

The mistake of my life, I say now. But, then, it felt the only way to have a life.

ElizabethAnne, I do not know how to tell a Scorpion, but I guess I know how to feel one. But, before I get there, I need to respond to something you wrote. We are not obligated to give people money, whether they are good or bad risks. I inherited a very little bit of money. How people know this, I am not sure. Since then i have been asked by people who are little more than strangers, for $5000 to pay legal fees for an adult child, $20000 for a down payment on a property, and $25000 to help someone avoid foreclosure.. In each case I was assured there would be no risk.

The issue for me is not risk. It is boundaries and the fact that I am trying to learn to simplify and enrich my life. My goal is not to enmesh and take on problems that are not mine, or those of my loved ones.

The woman facing foreclosure volunteered to forfeit her home, if she missed 2 payments. GREAT. Just want I want from life--to take away somebody's home to satisfy a debt. Are people NUTS?

What I think is the common denominator is this. (I know this thanks to my boyfriend.) He says I present *falsely a picture of docility, generosity and goodness, and that people think they can do with me what they want and that I will make all their wishes come true. WONDERFUL. Thankfully, I am a bit more complicated than I look at first glance.

What I want is to learn to live well. By that I mean, a little bit of pleasure and self esteem every day, and to make a nice home and life for myself and a man who is good to me. I have lived with ambition...and still have it....but I am trying to make it wait, for now.

About how to distinguish between humans and scorpions. This is what Cedar wrote:

None of us deserves punishment. What we do deserve is to be mistaken sometimes, and to be forgiven sometimes, and to forgive sincerely when we can, and not to be judged harshly or manipulated or tricked or pinched by those we allow into our inner circle.

Honestly, ElizabethAnne I do not even sense where you may have made a mistake...what I see is a woman (with the labs) who accepted your many kindnesses, and people addicted to them...and became enraged when she needed more than you could give. Look at the situation objectively--was she not thoughtlessly,unconsciously bingeing everywhere in her life, without thought of the consequences? Could your giving have stopped this? Could have anything stopped her?

Is it realistic to expect that she will participate in the truthseeking, responsibility-taking process? Does she want to? Are you willing to limit your expectations to what might be probable?

As I write this I remember a painful event of 45 years ago, that has always stayed with me. I was a very young woman living on my own and working in a big City. I was staying in one of those women's residences that were soon to go by the wayside, with the societal changes that were soon to arrive. There was an older woman resident who had a physical disability, perhaps it was a stroke, or maybe some kind of palsy. But the result was she could not speak well, or eat properly...you get the picture. I was kind to her. Why? Because I am kind. She came to demand my kindness. Being kind, and young, and without defenses, I felt no way to protect myself from her demands, and her anger. I withdrew. She became angry. Dramatically angry. In effect, she threw fits. If I did not sit with her to eat. She cried. The more she did this the more I stayed away, and the farther away I stayed.

This was a powerful lesson for a young woman. For many years I was very, very careful about offering kindness to vulnerable people UNLESS there was some way out, that did not involve the need to set a boundary. Because I had learned once in-- needy people sometimes do not let you out....without punishment.

I find it more than a little interesting, that I felt myself unable to set boundaries, preferring instead to not
let in people at all.

If your friend, or the woman in my example, interpret our actions as betrayals, who are we to argue? In your case, it appears you set a boundary....in my case....I ran from a situation I did not have the emotional tools to handle. I was hardly more than a girl. Give me a break...

To me, these people are not Scorpions, not cruel. But really, what is the difference? If we hold other people responsible...for our pain, whatever it is...is this not dangerous?

Maybe you and I are alike in this way....it is hard to bear that somebody near us feels we have caused them pain....But really why is this so hard to bear? Why is saying no such a capital offense?

They don't know how.

That when it is our duty to do it, for our sake and for theirs.

ElizabethAnne, I do not know how to tell a Scorpion, but I guess I know how to feel one. But, before I get there, I need to respond to something you wrote. We are not obligated to give people money, whether they are good or bad risks. I inherited a very little bit of money. How people know this, I am not sure. Since then i have been asked by people who are little more than strangers, for $5000 to pay legal fees for an adult child, $20000 for a down payment on a property, and $25000 to help someone avoid foreclosure.. In each case I was assured there would be no risk.

The issue for me is not risk. It is boundaries and the fact that I am trying to learn to simplify and enrich my life. My goal is not to enmesh and take on problems that are not mine, or those of my loved ones.

The woman facing foreclosure volunteered to forfeit her home, if she missed 2 payments. GREAT. Just want I want from life--to take away somebody's home to satisfy a debt. Are people NUTS?

What I think is the common denominator is this. (I know this thanks to my boyfriend.) He says I present *falsely a picture of docility, generosity and goodness, and that people think they can do with me what they want and that I will make all their wishes come true. WONDERFUL. Thankfully, I am a bit more complicated than I look at first glance.

What I want is to learn to live well. By that I mean, a little bit of pleasure and self esteem every day, and to make a nice home and life for myself and a man who is good to me. I have lived with ambition...and still have it....but I am trying to make it wait, for now.

About how to distinguish between humans and scorpions. This is what Cedar wrote:

None of us deserves punishment. What we do deserve is to be mistaken sometimes, and to be forgiven sometimes, and to forgive sincerely when we can, and not to be judged harshly or manipulated or tricked or pinched by those we allow into our inner circle.

Honestly, ElizabethAnne I do not even sense where you may have made a mistake...what I see is a woman (with the labs) who accepted your many kindnesses, and people addicted to them...and became enraged when she needed more than you could give. Look at the situation objectively--was she not thoughtlessly,unconsciously bingeing everywhere in her life, without thought of the consequences? Could your giving have stopped this? Could have anything stopped her?

Is it realistic to expect that she will participate in the truthseeking, responsibility-taking process? Does she want to? Are you willing to limit your expectations to what might be probable?

As I write this I remember a painful event of 45 years ago, that has always stayed with me. I was a very young woman living on my own and working in a big City. I was staying in one of those women's residences that were soon to go by the wayside, with the societal changes that were soon to arrive. There was an older woman resident who had a physical disability, perhaps it was a stroke, or maybe some kind of palsy. But the result was she could not speak well, or eat properly...you get the picture. I was kind to her. Why? Because I am kind. She came to demand my kindness. Being kind, and young, and without defenses, I felt no way to protect myself from her demands, and her anger. I withdrew. She became angry. Dramatically angry. In effect, she threw fits. If I did not sit with her to eat. She cried. The more she did this the more I stayed away, and the farther away I stayed.

This was a powerful lesson for a young woman. For many years I was very, very careful about offering kindness to vulnerable people UNLESS there was some way out, that did not involve the need to set a boundary. Because I had learned once in-- needy people sometimes do not let you out....without punishment.

I find it more than a little interesting, that I felt myself unable to set boundaries, preferring instead to not
let in people at all.

If your friend, or the woman in my example, interpret our actions as betrayals, who are we to argue? In your case, it appears you set a boundary....in my case....I ran from a situation I did not have the emotional tools to handle. I was hardly more than a girl. Give me a break...

To me, these people are not Scorpions, not cruel. But really, what is the difference? If we hold other people responsible...for our pain, whatever it is...is this not dangerous?

Maybe you and I are alike in this way....it is hard to bear that somebody near us feels we have caused them pain....But really why is this so hard to bear? Why is saying no such a capital offense?

Whoa Copa--talk about wisdom, openness and generosity! You made so many valid points and ask such important questions. I hardly know where to start! I appreciate your examples. Sad as the stories are, you framed them perfectly. You helped me to stop minimizing Scorpia's stinging/cunning/shady side...especially now that it is directed at me, instead of everyone else. When I saw her behaviors in business, her treatment of other tenants, laborers she hired and neighbors, she would always exaggerate the facts to justify her explosive responses. then she's laugh and blame it on the fact that she is full-blooded Sicilian. Her snarkiness with me, for the most, part kept at bay-partly because I chose not to speak up or challenge her affairs with others. Plus, she knows I was good to Mom, loved spending time with both of them and she didn't push my buttons too awfully much. Thankfully, I too am a bit more complicated than I look (I love this Copa-I'm borrowing it!). The observation your boyfriend made about you is downright profound-I certainly see myself in that description as well. False picture of docility, generosity and goodness.
To answer one of your questions, yes it bothers me to think that someone close to me feels I have caused them pain. In this case, I think she may feel some regret about saying that about me now. What I most want her to hear now is that she has a VERY skewed recollection of "all the things she did for me" when I was her tenant, how she "kept me in my home" and didn't abandon her the way I did her". Not an ounce of truth there. I paid every month on time, never late (except the 2 week period I did manual labor for her). I pulled myself up and found jobs 60+ miles from home at first. She asked me to find a home for my dog because it he was alone and crying. She told me to "figure it out". That was true and it broke my heart, but I found him a good home because I had to take care of me and pay my rent...even when she had not paid her mortgage for over two years. My brother took his life a short time later. I kept working. When the house foreclosed, she gave me inadequate written notice to vacate, and then stopped speaking to me when I pushed for more time with the bank. The only reason we reconnected after that was because I insisted on seeing and spending time with Mom (she was in advanced stages of Alzheimer's). I knew she wondered why I didn't come around and was probably confused and sad. I'm so glad I did. I visited constantly for 2 months. We spend Thanksgiving and Christmas Eve, she fell that night and died a month later.
What I really want right now after reading all of your kind replies is to let her know that I am not in that story that she tells--to herself or to others. No more grace, no more benefit of the doubt. I can forgive her, but not willing to swallow what really happened to "fit" back into her life somehow.
I am content that Mom is the greatest gift I gained in that in that 7 yr chapter of my life.

 

[Copabanana]

I am so confused...how do you know the difference between people being human, and making mistakes and being scorpians, that we must steer clear of, lest they sting our eyes out?
I was starting to have a tendency to make people either all good, or all bad.
I just don't want to demonize people.
I don't want to make them wrong anymore, because that just makes me feel "right".
And that's just a little too close to righteous for my taste.

Until this moment I did not realize that for nearly a lifetime I have been carrying responsibility for my sister's poor choices. I did so by judging her and then blaming myself for judging her. I think I did this because this was a way to keep her, to not have to acknowledge to myself fully her true nature. As long as I judged her (which was wrong)...I kept some of the blame for myself...I protected her. (The affective charge from the judgment) kept a relationship and my hope alive.... if one day I stopped judging her, we could be together.
How sad. Almost, I would rather keep the illusion that...someday...we'll be together (Dianna Ross.)

 

[Copabanana]

I fouled up the last message. Still don;t understand quotes. Below is a dialog with Cedar.

Cedar

None of us deserves punishment. What we do deserve is to be mistaken sometimes, and to be forgiven sometimes, and to forgive sincerely when we can, and not to be judged harshly or manipulated or tricked or pinched by those we allow into our inner circle.

None of us is perfect except for me.

:O)

Copa

Cedar, this is so profound (see above.) I made a terrible mistake during the year my Mother was dying. And my Mother's death caused me to rethink my whole life, and feel that I had lived badly. I believe my Mother forgave me, although I never asked for forgiveness. Nor did she ask to be forgiven, although she did tell M's sister that she would tell her girls she was sorry, when she went home from the hospital. She came home from the hospital--she never said she was sorry. It was enough, just hearing it second hand.

What is it that makes forgiving ourselves so hard for some of us?

Cedar

When you say you judged her Copa, what do you mean? It may be that what you really mean is that you took her at her word.

Copa

I think you are correct here, Cedar. I did not judge my sister. I just ran like h-ll and stayed away. That different than judgment, isn't it?

There is a book, Copa. The Sociopath Next Door. I think that is it. It was written by a retired FBI agent. In it, he describes famous criminals and what guidelines those who identify and capture them use to find and imprison them.

He describes lack of conscience, or sense of entitlement, or outright sociopathy, as a continuum.

You may have been, and probably were, very right to fear her, Copa. Not because she could hurt you, but because she would.

And on some level, you still know that true thing.

Copa

Yes, Cedar. Yes.

Is that the answer of why she could forget a Mother as she lay dying...Because she would...if it suited her. And she did.

Cedar

We can all hurt one another if we think about it hard enough. But not all of us would do it. To most of us, knowing we could hurt someone calls forth our protective instincts.

Those without those protective instincts are called bullies. Bullies will abuse as soon as they know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that they will not lose the fight they intend to pick. Bullies even abuse their own babies and their children and their animals.

Copa

My sister held a position of responsibility and power--not high level--but still--she could act badly or well, and thereby affect other people. My Mother told me that a subordinate filed legal charges against the institution where she worked naming her.

Little, by little my sister lost the esteem of her bosses. As my sister became more and more marginalized in her position she became more and more bitter. Rather than look at herself, she chose to believe her bosses to be motivated by bigotry. All of the responsibility was outside of herself. When she left the post she told me, "they told me I was an embarrassment."" She said this to demonstrate her victimization by THEM. She felt NO SHAME in recounting this remark to me.

As I write this I realize that this is how she deals with the decision to distance herself from my dying Mother. To her, she was victimized by us, by me and my dying Mother.

Until this moment I did not realize that for nearly a lifetime I have been carrying responsibility for my sister's poor choices. I did so by blaming myself for judging her. I think I did this because this was a way to keep her, to not have to acknowledge to myself fully her true nature. I thought I did, but as look back...I kept some of the blame for myself...I protected her. It kept hope alive....that if one day I stopped judging her, we could be together.

How sad. Almost, I would rather keep the illusion that...someday...we'll be together (Dianna Ross.) A little comic relief here.

 

[Copabanana]

I still fouled up my post. Cedar, between the two last posts, there is a complete dialog with your brilliant response to me about Sociopathy. I am too tired to reconstruct my response, but will look tomorrow to see if I can disentangle it. Copa

 

[elizabethanne]

I fouled up the last message. Still don;t understand quotes. Below is a dialog with Cedar.

Cedar



Copa

My sister held a position of responsibility and power--not high level--but still--she could act badly or well, and thereby affect other people. My Mother told me that a subordinate filed legal charges against the institution where she worked naming her.

Little, by little my sister lost the esteem of her bosses. As my sister became more and more marginalized in her position she became more and more bitter. Rather than look at herself, she chose to believe her bosses to be motivated by bigotry. All of the responsibility was outside of herself. When she left the post she told me, "they told me I was an embarrassment."" She said this to demonstrate her victimization by THEM. She felt NO SHAME in recounting this remark to me.

As I write this I realize that this is how she deals with the decision to distance herself from my dying Mother. To her, she was victimized by us, by me and my dying Mother.

Until this moment I did not realize that for nearly a lifetime I have been carrying responsibility for my sister's poor choices. I did so by blaming myself for judging her. I think I did this because this was a way to keep her, to not have to acknowledge to myself fully her true nature. I thought I did, but as look back...I kept some of the blame for myself...I protected her. It kept hope alive....that if one day I stopped judging her, we could be together.. Almost, I would rather keep the illusion that...someday...we'll be together (Dianna Ross.) A little comic relief here.

Copa, have you ever thought about the qualities and personality traits of a woman we might describe as "queen bee"? Those women who just seem naturally assertive, fearless competitive...savvy and smart. The natural born leader type. That's how I picture your sister. When you described how she was perceived in the workplace. I can almost imagine her bitterness. She was the innocent victim, the target of malicious co-workers, the marginalized one. You have been protecting her for far longer than you even realize. I'm curious, how far does she live from you?

 

[Copabanana]

Up until 2 and a half years ago, we lived in the same state, about 6 hours distant. Because of her job difficulties, and always needing to live high, she moved to another state far, far away from me, to accept a job where there was a lower cost of living. I think it was a good move for her.

The funny thing is that underneath it all she is insecure, nervous and fragile. For example, when she was young, she would throw up when she started a new job. The sad thing is whether by choice or need, her version of strong was dominant and controlling, which to me, is not a leader.

Cedar wrote about Sociopathy. That was really on target. People who feel entitled, as my sister does, often in late middle age, tend towards Sociopathy--their lives have not generated the rewards (psychological, principally) they feel they have deserved. They feel justified in doing (and acting in) whatever way they want ...to recompense what they feel they are entitled to and deserve, but lack. They want to inflict damage and revenge on those they feel do not deserve what they have. THEY are the only deserving ones...except for negative consequences for their poor choices.

Do you see your ex landlady in this? The more I write the more I am thinking there are strong parallels. Are there?

As I write this I am feeling sad, and a great deal of love for her. I wish I could get this straight.

Thank you for your interest, ElizabethAnne. Do you have sisters? I am curious about your Mother, if you would like to share.

 

[Copabanana]

ElizabethAnne, when I think about the connotations of a Queen Bee, the image is more powerful than is my sister. My sister needs to be powerful and to control too much...that to me is not power. My sister is warm, a bully and insecure. She has also tried very, very hard to be a good mother and seems to have done a good job. So, a mixed bag, like most of us.

 

[elizabethanne]

Up until 2 and a half years ago, we lived in the same state, about 6 hours distant. Because of her job difficulties, and always needing to live high, she moved to another state far, far away from me, to accept a job where there was a lower cost of living. I think it was a good move for her.

The funny thing is that underneath it all she is insecure, nervous and fragile. For example, when she was young, she would throw up when she started a new job. The sad thing is whether by choice or need, her version of strong was dominant and controlling, which to me, is not a leader.

Cedar wrote about Sociopathy. That was really on target. People who feel entitled, as my sister does, often in late middle age, tend towards Sociopathy--their lives have not generated the rewards (psychological, principally) they feel they have deserved. They feel justified in doing (and acting in) whatever way they want ...to recompense what they feel they are entitled to and deserve, but lack. They want to inflict damage and revenge on those they feel do not deserve what they have. THEY are the only deserving ones...except for negative consequences for their poor choices.

Do you see your ex landlady in this? The more I write the more I am thinking there are strong parallels. Are there?

As I write this I am feeling sad, and a great deal of love for her. I wish I could get this straight.

Thank you for your interest, ElizabethAnne. Do you have sisters? I am curious about your Mother, if you would like to share.

I agree that dominant and controlling does not=good leader. The most effective leaders are anything but that. Yes, I do sense some similarities between your sister and my friend. When I first met her she was way more high energy. Her caring for Mom through 13 years of the Alzheimer's took its toll on her energy level and stamina. She's struggled with diabetes, fibromyalgia and other issues. Until the last 3 or so years, she was pretty high energy, warm, very assertive, flamboyant, loved to entertain, was an amazing cook, talented with remodel/redesign stuff and very driven. She had another beach house that she revamped from the ground up that was absolutely stunning. She rented it by the night. She lost it all, which is so hard for me to believe sometimes. Truly, she and Mom and the dogs were like family to me.
When she tried to re-enter the workforce after relying on mom and being self-employed for so many years, her self-confidence took a nosedive. She didn't know where she fit it anymore and it was sad to see her be so unsure of herself. She was also used to making the rules and telling people what to do. I guess she'd been a Real Estate Agent, owned a restaurant and did lots of side catering and party planning. She didn't seem to understand the importance of diving in and taking the good with the bad in the world of work. She was just lost, had 3 big dogs to feed, who are also pampered, spoiled and use to having people around. That was all the family she had. Estranged from her brother. He was angry that she took over the family money and took Mom 2 states away to buy a home on the water and manage an 8-plex and 2 beach houses.
I was raised with 4 boys, the only girl. My mother is 91, lives near Yosemite. Very strong, smart, somewhat narcissistic woman who raised 5 children on her own, no child support. She's softened considerably this year and seems to be making her peace with all of us. I live a few states away so I don't get to see her as often as I'd like to.
I have 2 half sisters from my father's second marriage in he same town I live in. I am 10/11 years older than them, was not raised with them. Gained two sisters when I was 19 and seeking out my father after 10 years of not seeing him. One of them looks more like me than they look like each other. They are both good people, the younger very likeable, and almost childlike in nature. Struggled with drug addiction 10 years ago, stable now. The other is way liberal/social justice minded (not that I'm not a progressive thinker, I'm just not politically motivated). Anyway, she and I use to be very close and now that we're older, we are each drawn to VERY different kinds of people and activities. My faith is very important to me, and our lifestyles are just not in sync. I am very much the "big sister" to the younger one. Kind of funny to watch her. She looks up to me like she's 12! She's very funny, animated and wears her heart on her sleeve. Children just flock around her because she is so young at heart.