Been here before. Looking for some advice

[Elsi]

Drew I think Smithmom has a great suggestion there! It’s worth investigating, and as Smithmom says, if she resists thinking of herself as needing that kind of support you have the opportunity to tell her she needs to prove it. And if she does end up diagnosed with Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD), major depression, or Generalized Anxiety Disorder (GAD) it may open up additional supports that will help her over these next years.

I hope she gets going with the volunteer options soon and makes some progress towards getting out of the house for a bit most days. I would love to see her disengage from the constant game playing somewhat but I know that’s going to be a difficult battle. So you ended up not giving her the laptop then? She’s still using the computer in the common area? Having her a little less constantly present would take some pressure off - maybe she could take a laptop and go to a coffee shop or otherwise out of the house sometimes? Too much ‘togetherness’ can be tough on everyone sometimes! And it might be good for her to get out of the house and into the public in a low-key way.

How often are her therapy appointments? And are you seeing anyone to get some more strategies to try, either with or without your wife?

It’s so hard to know the difference between ‘can’t’ and ‘won’t’ with our difficult children as they make this transition to adulthood. Is she hiding behind a screen because she’s genuinely unable to get out there, due to anxiety, depression, or undeveloped social skills? Or is she simply addicted to the games or unwilling to put in an effort? I think it’s really hard to tell. Perhaps a combination of both. But it makes it so hard to know what the aappropriate response is, when to play hardball and when a more gentle and supportive touch is needed.

I agree with picking and choosing your battles right now, though I think I would make basic respect and consideration for others around her one of mine.

Let us know what kind of progress she makes this week. Wishing you all the best.

 

[Elsi]

Hi Drew,

I ran across something today that made me think of your daughter. Have you heard of "Hikikomori"? This is a phenomenon most widely seen in Japan with young people who are refusing to leave their homes or sometimes their rooms, cutting themselves completely off from society (except online). It is often associated with obsessive internet use or gaming as well. I found it interesting because most people seem to agree it is NOT necessarily the result of a defined mental illness, but rather a complex phenomenon of its own with interlocking personal, family, social and societal factors. It's apparently become rather common in Japan among the young generation but is seen as a growing phenomenon in western countries as well.

Here are a few articles:
https://www.businessinsider.com/hik...-health-problem-traps-japanese-at-home-2018-1
https://www.nippon.com/en/column/g00455/
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/.../february/japan-hikikomori-isolation-society/
https://www.cnn.com/2016/09/11/asia/japanese-millennials-hikikomori-social-recluse/index.html

And a more scientific look:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4776119/

I found this interesting because rather than just looking at it as an individual mental illness it looks at it from more of a societal viewpoint, looking at how new technologies, changing social expectations and pressures, etc. are driving more young people to withdraw from society. Many of them apparently do not fit the diagnostic criteria for mental illness - they just don't want to leave their houses or rooms.

A couple of other things that struck me:

• It does seem that the longer it continues the harder it is to address - 'Won't' does indeed become 'can't' over time
• There seems to be an element of fear of failure for a lot of these young people - the withdrawal often started after they failed at a goal that was important to them or to their parents, such as failing a class or failing to make a team. They just lose their confidence to be able to get back up and try again somehow. (It sounds like your daughter was doing well for a while until something undefined happened with this friend and perhaps her larger social group?)
• "treatment" seems to be gradual, supportive reentry into society. The more interaction they have with people and the world outside their houses the better they get. Things like horse therapy, etc. seem to have been helpful for some. In Japan, they have "Rent a Sister" companies that send young women to young men's houses to act like sisters and try to lure them out of their rooms! (Rent-a-brother is apparently a newer phenomenon, as more men than women are affected. I have no idea why they think the cross-gender aspect is important, since these women are acting as "sisters" and not as girlfriends. That may be something culturally specific to Japan?)

I have no idea if any of this will resonate or apply to your daughter at all, but I thought I would pass it on just in case you find something interesting here. It is entirely possible that your daughter is indeed somewhere on the spectrum or suffering from a mental illness. But if ongoing therapy and evaluation doesn't turn up anything specific, perhaps this is another way of looking at the problem.

I hope she makes some progress this week!

 

[Drew64]

Very interesting articles. Have not read all of them been busy at work. She doesn’t go out because of the hair incident. Now she uses the computer as her social life. My wife and I will be seeing therapist next week then my daughter. It’s difficult because of my schedule. Friday she has a dentist appointment to get a cavity filled. Maybe the nitrous oxide they give will help lol. I think if the hair was not cut she would have still dropped classes just at a later time. I had given some of the old evaluations to this therapist and he thought there maybe some sensory issue and thought looking into brushing for her. Called wilbarger protocol. I know earlier in life she was evaluated by Occupational Therapist (OT) but was told found nothing. Horse therapy was also recommended to look into by a friend of mine. A lot to do with little time to do it in. Yesterday was first time she actually sat out with me in living room and watched a tv show in months. Must of peaked her interest. We have a few outdoor festivals usually go to around this time of year so will see if she will still go out with me to them. Will keep posted

 

[Drew64]

It’s been just difficult dealing with her. She doesent talk a lot unless asking for food. Every time try to talk she just gets angry. I’ve asked her to start setting some goals to achieve. She just doesent want to talk about anything. Drives my wife crazy. She won’t help around house with her laundry or anything.

 

[Smithmom]

Question: she doesn't go out why do her laundry? What will she do if you stop doing it for her?

There's a methodology in dealing with conduct disordered kids where you strip them of everything and let them earn it back piece by piece. Not that I'm suggesting it for your daughter. But maybe stop doing anything for her. Nothing in food available to her but healthy uncooked options that she has to cook herself. No clean clothes, sheets, unless she cleans them. Etc. May require you to do daily grocery shopping for only the two of you for only what you're going to eat that night.

 

[BusynMember]

If you stop doing things for her like laundry, as Smithsmom suggested, she would HAVE to do things herself. Or wear dirty clothes which would be her fault.

All families are different. Even my autistic son did his own laundry by age 12. All my kids did. They learned to cook and clean too. They were not coddled. Only my autistic son did not work part time while in high school and he got a job as soon as he graduated. Now all four are hard working and self sufficient. Some need a bigger push.

I think stopping room service would help.

 

[Elsi]

I agree - she needs to be independent in self care. If she wants clean clothes, she should have to wash them. If she wears dirty clothes for a while, it won’t hurt her.

 

[Elsi]

I know you can’t control how your wife responds, but I would add that the more you can both keep you own emotional reactions in check the better. If your daughter is getting angry or abusive, end the conversation and walk away - no yelling, no lectures, just well we can’t talk when you’re like this so this conversation is over. If she wants something like food or clean clothes, just say well you know how to fix yourself something/put some laundry in. If she’s not happy with her food options, well, sorry you feel that way, that’s what we have. But try to stay neutral or positive and step out of the push/pull battle. Dont give her anything to push against - just matter of fact this is how it is.

I know my kids as they got to be that age got very good at pushing buttons, especially my husband’s, to get a reaction. And once they got that reaction the battle was won, because now they could tell themselves we were being unreasonable and therefore Whatever we said was invalid. They got to feel angry and justified and self righteous and keep doing whatever it was they were doing. It’s a trap, and the only out that I have found is keeping my reactions as bland and emotionless as possible.

 

[Drew64]

So had a therapy session today with just me and my wife. She got to express her frustration about everything. We discussed possibly sending my daughter to Las Vegas where her grandmother and aunt live for a couple of weeks but my mom is 82 and might not be able to handle her. After the session when home asked my daughter to come upstairs and start her laundry. Even that was a battle and she just kept telling me to do it. Finally got her to do it. I told her to put them in dryer and hang what needs to be before I get back from my errands. That did not work. So I told her either do it or no internet. No response. Clothes sat for about an hour then asked again. As I went to lock her out of our WiFi she got up and started to harass me by grabbing my arm which is her way of saying don’t take me off. She kept trying to grab me and it became a shouting match mostly by me. I guess she pushed my buttons.
Part of me doesent care anymore because I can get up amd do everything I need without dealing with taking her any where. The other part gets angry that she’s so needy and throwing her life away. Therapist basically said she needs to be shocked I to doing something. We talked about what would happen if police ever were called again amd most likely she would end up in county jail. This kids 90 pounds wet so that always worries me. Don’t have a lot of people can send her to to get everyone away from each other. Small family.

 

[Smithmom]

Might I suggest that you back off? Don't remind her to do her laundry. Don't make her do it. Get her her own laundry basket. Leave it in her room. She puts hers in with yours ignore it. Let it sit there. But in no way discuss it with her.

Imagine she's your roommate or boarder. Just let it get smelly. Let her run out of clean clothes. She's an adult. If she wants to wear dirty clothes so what?

 

[Elsi]

Agree with smithmom 100%. The goal here is to get out of the parent/child rebellion and make her step up and make her own decisions for self care like an adult. When she wants laundry bad enough, she’ll do it. I wouldn’t say a word about it, even if she comes down wearing dirty clothes or something she pulled out of the back of the closet from middle school. Not your clothes, not your problem.

 

[BusynMember]

Tell her its up to her to do it and don't t say another word about it. Even if she does. If necessary lock yourself in an empty room and turn on loud music. Dont gave in.

 

[Drew64]

Trying. She has a hamper in her room for a while. I guess hard for me not to be a parent.

 

[Elsi]

I think that’s the hardest thing about this transition time. Learning when to do (and say) nothing.

 

[Smithmom]

I said this someone on another thread but here goes..

You taught her to ride a bike. At first you held on to the back to make sure she didn't fall over. Then you backed off until eventually she balanced on her own. If you held on to the back forever eventually you're not only keeping her from learning but you're making her unbalanced.

I suggest that being a parent isn't doing it for her or pushing her to do it. It's teaching her to do it herself and then letting go. If she falls down you help her get up and then let her go again.

 

[Smithmom]

Maybe I can say it another way. Being a parent means different things at different ages/ development levels. There's doing it for them. There's teaching them. There's overseeing them do it. Then there's letting them do it themselves. At 19 they're in a dorm responsible for themselves and not just their laundry. You're still the parent no matter the age or level.

Do you want her to be dependent forever? Are you letting her use the training wheels or are you still holding on?

 

[AppleCori]

My step-son has been living with us for close to two years now, and he has not washed his sheets even once.

And his room kinda smells because of it.

I don’t say anything about it.

Nor my problem if he wants to live like that.

 

[BusynMember]

She knows how to do laundry. At the very least she can do her clothes in cold water and throw in detergent and take them out without folding them. Not a skill she has to learn....my kids all could do this by 12.

To me your daughter has a princess complex. It is one thing to truly be frightened to leave the house. But she isnt afraid to do the laundry. She just insists you do it so you do.

If you demand nothing of her yet buy her toys, as if she were young, she will stay a child. She does not have the normal drive most 19 year olds have to become independent. Part of it could be autism or mental illness, but as stated before my autistic son has always done what my other kids did and he is independent snd out of the house now. And he darn sure has to do his own laundry, cook, and clean and work. We tried not to treat him like he was any different from our other kids. It helped!

It is hard to stop parenting but in my opinion by tje 20s we have transitioned from Mommy to Mother, a friend with some advice when asked and love always. You can love her without doing things for her that she can do for herself. Or buying her things. If she refuses to get help but you still clean up for her and make sure her environment is nice and even buy her expensive toys, why should she do the very hard task of helping herself? It is easier for her not to.

But you will die some day. Then who will care for her this way?

Nobody.

You can see what happens if you go on strike.

Your daughter needs help but the way you do it now doesnt motivate her.

Nothing changes if nothing changes. You may have to keep switching things up for her sake and yours.

 

[Smithmom]

Extend my analogy..

If she takes off on the bike heading into a highway you run after her and grab it so she doesn't kill herself. If she takes off down the bumpy sidewalk you let her go though she might get hurt. Which is not doing her laundry, wearing dirty clothes or even living in unwashed sheets for 2 years? Worst case she doesn't make friends because of it? Or is it that you would be embarrassed?

The embarrassment is something a parent of a teenager always lives with. We can't control them. Its a common condition for a parent. As parents of difficult kids we suffer from it more than most. This is where we find out who our real friends are. But we can't avoid it.

 

[Drew64]

I don’t get emba from her at all. If anything she’s more self cons of her looks and stuff. Had another session today. She vented. She was asked what she would do in the coming weeks amd she said she may register for winter session and take one class. She is still embarrassed about her hair and just wants it to grow. Does want a hair stylist to fix it.