From bad to worse...much, much worse.

Lil

Well-Known Member
why are you calling the judge and calling job corps? can you step away and let him manage these things?

Lawyer - remember? :) Just not so easy when I have been his lawyer as opposed to his mom. It wouldn't be right for me not to go to court and talk to the judge...especially since he has to work Wed. and I can get right in...it's literally right up the street...and he'd have to sit for an hour or two before the judge would see him. So yeah...the legal stuff I'm more than willing to take care of.

As for calling Job Corps...her message wasn't completely clear and I just wanted to double check the date. While she was on the phone I asked. Again, lawyer.

Yes, I know I could, and maybe should, let him sink or swim...but I wouldn't do that to anyone. Wouldn't feel right given the fact that I know what questions to ask and what to do and have been representing him. Kind of gives me an ethical duty.

And thanks to both of you for the hernia advice. I'm going to take two weeks off work and so should be fine by time I get back. Thankfully I have a really sedentary job. My doctor told me 3-4 days off...the surgeon told me two weeks! Could have knocked me over. I just didn't think it would be that big of a deal.
 

Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
Cedar, did you ever come to the point when you no longer had it in you to hold onto the belief or feeling that these children are mine, me, ours?

No.

But I did finally leap into the words and actions of detachment parenting. Seat of my pants thing, again. It was the one thing I could not make myself do. I could only see myself in the positions of either of my children, with no one to help me and no one to love me or believe in me. And so, I couldn't do detachment parenting. But then, one day, someone posted in with an update.

And for some reason, this one time, I could hear her.

So, I said: NO MONEY

I said: I read what you posted and I read it again and I don't like what you said. I don't remember the words I used. Part of me still can't believe I did it, I suppose. SWOT had been posting articles for us on verbally abusive adult children. And suddenly, one day about three months into denying that could ever happen to me, I realized it was happening to me.

So, whatever I said, I stood up to my son about it and came here and posted about what I had done immediately. And so, when the guilt hit, I had everyone here to stand me up.

To back me up.

To tell me I had done the right and ethical thing. What they were really telling me Copa? Is that I had not turned into my abusive mother. I have been so committed, all of my life, to not being my mother it isn't even funny.

So, that was a pretty big hurdle. My son called me a jerk. You believe it?!?

Yes he did.

So, once I stood up to that, I just kept on standing up.

Any day now, I will be removing my training wheels.

:O)

I seem to feel that by keeping close to my son, I am endorsing his crazy thinking and disordered behavior. From a feeling state I need to and want to reject this part of him...his crazy, lazy, aggressive, judging side. Is this right?

It is neither right nor wrong. It just is.

Honor that, Copa. You did not raise your son to be who he is today. How offensive it is to me too, to see where my adult children have taken both those babies I birthed and nursed and built my life around!

I felt this way, too: Whatever I did, I was wrong because it hadn't worked. So then, I had that thing going on about not being able to make sense of things correctly because of the way I was brought up.

So, I broke, Copa.

But I never did stop trying.

Now that I get the theory behind detachment parenting, I am holding pretty strong.

But we are not our mothers, Copa. I was stronger when these things first began happening. Over time though, I lost a belief in my own efficacy. It was like, if I knew what to do, if I were bright enough to make a difference for any of us, we would already be better. But things just kept getting unbelievably worse. Soon enough, I had no strength and I had no plan and I had nothing.

Nothing.

And things kept getting worse.

I asked the strangest people for advice. I was so desperate that I believed people I would not have had coffee with, in my previous life. (I know, I know. Bad Cedar.)

And there was that therapist.

I began seeing him because someone recommended him for my daughter. Thank heaven she would never, ever show up at any therapy appointment we ever set for her, so she never showed up to see him, either.

Where was I going with this.

No. I never stopped believing. I know there are those who say that is possible. I say we can believe but not hate ourselves when it fails.

That is the balancing act, as I see it.

Between believing our best is very good, believing the battle is a hard thing, and believing in ourselves and choosing love for ourselves, even if things get worse.

And even if things get better. Keep breathing. Let go. I am trying really hard not to say anything. No advice without a direct request unless it is something I know about, like choosing to cherish always being the right thing.

Well, I mean to my kids. Here on the site, not so good with that yet.

But every post I write clarifies things for me, too.

So if I ever develop a Buddah-like silence, we will all know I finally made it.

But my only way of rejecting this, seems to be that I reject him.

He is sick right now, Copa. He is doing and saying and thinking the most outrageously hate filled things. We have to remember that is the illness or the addiction ~ or both.

Believe in yourself and your child.

Stand up for yourself. This is going to sound a little mean. Dealing with someone who is addicted is a little like training a really mean dog. You know the dog is mean. Nonetheless, that is your dog. There are certain things he cannot do. One of them is: he cannot go to the bathroom on you or your belongings or your people that you love.

Nor does he get to bite you.

Nor can he steal your food.

So, here is some more weirdness I have never posted, before. You know Cesar the Dog Whisperer? Well, he says: What does he say. Something about the attitude needs to be calm / dominant.

That helped me.

I was watching Cesar every time he came on and I took some of his books out of the library too, when I was learning how to stand up to our son.

Works for me.

There are no atheists in foxholes. I try to be responsible to myself and my family and wherever that good advice comes from? I am just grateful to have it.

That calm dominant thing worked well for the imagery I needed to talk to my son. I would be so darn excited if he called, I would forget myself.

Calm/dominant.

Easy to remember.

I am really happy that I know that.

Cedar
 

tishthedish

Well-Known Member
Cedar, you must be reading my mind. About dogs...I was just thinking the silliest thing. About how sometimes I wish in the delivery room after having my children the doctor would have said, "Congratulations, Mrs. Tish. You have a bouncing, baby, collie puppy." I know. I'm warped!
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
"I'm so sorry this happened to you, and to us. You are a good man, a good father. You did not deserve for this to happen." I had never seen my D H cry, until the night I spoke those words to him. I mean, it was a manly kind of crying, of course.
I was about to feel sorry for us but then I remembered M.

M has a daughter who when she was 16, took off, never to be seen again. I guess M had reacted like a dad because she had gotten pregnant by the married man she was seeing. It took 5 years before he told me that piece of it.

I asked him once, how long did you look for her? His answer? 4 years. He went from town to town on his days off. That was 20 years ago.

He does not want me to suffer the same. Me? I don't want any of us to suffer. Especially me.

Cedar, you must be reading my mind. About dogs...I was just thinking the silliest thing. About how sometimes I wish in the delivery room after having my children the doctor would have said, "Congratulations, Mrs. Tish. You have a bouncing, baby, collie puppy." I know. I'm warped!
Tish, again, I am doubled over with laughter.
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
Cedar a bit ago I got off the phone with my son and as I spoke with him I had your post in front of me.
They are in trouble, and this is what their illness looks like. And none of those things they do, and none of the words they say while they are ill and essentially, delerious, matters in the way it would if they were coming at me from a sane place.
As he was speaking I asked myself why I would challenge a delirious and ill person, who so needed me to listen? And I stayed silent and felt love for him and pride in myself. Who knew?

Unless we see it, addiction or mental illness or both, for what it is, we believe the words they say have real meaning.
By suspending belief and not taking his words as real, the actual words he said and my fear of them lost their power. I realized he had needed to be heard by me.

I realized the sub-text that had always been there. I love him. He needs me. He loves me. I need him.


It wasn't my daughter I rejected, when I refused to accept those diagnoses. It was the life sentence they implied.
This is the absolute truth. I am hearing you Cedar. I do not need to go there.

That is your son. You will never stop loving him, stop remembering how it felt when you met him, when you held him for the first time or the first time he told a joke and you realized this little bit of humanity had a sense of humor.
Oh my God. I looked at him. I loved him that second. And he me.

So language delayed, he wanted to talk...with the few words he had. "Doggy," he said. "It doggy." And sense of humor, how he could laugh. How I made him laugh.

We grow into our kids, we fall in love with them over and over again.
I am in love, again. He was my hero. He thrived. I thrived. I wanted this to be a redemption story. It was. Until it wasn't.

I see now that it is his story to write. I have to write my own. And I am.

I have kept getting worse because of this:
(we) hate ourselves when it fails.
What changed tonight? I spoke from love and belief and hope. And that can never fail.

Until the next time I forget. Thank you.
 
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Copabanana

Well-Known Member
What they were really telling me Copa? Is that I had not turned into my abusive mother. I have been so committed, all of my life, to not being my mother it isn't even funny.
Cedar, I think I fear that my son will turn into my father who got worse and worse until he melted.

And, I have turned into what my Mother could sometimes be. Judgmental. Angry. Afraid. Rejecting.

*Part of my son's frustration with me, I think, is this: "Where is she and why is she acting so weird?"

Today has shown me that I can get myself back if I focus. All I have to do is turn the channel. I do not have to turn into my Mother. I can stay tuned...stay me.

And more. By staying in bed, by taking on an identity of someone ill, sad, negating my competencies and undermining my hope...I have dissolved...(in a manner different than did my father) but dissolved nonetheless...so that my son might be saved.

Don't all you mom's out there rush to try this technique. It didn't work.
 
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Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
You have a bouncing, baby, collie puppy."

I have thought that same thing! D H and I sit around congratulating ourselves on how really cool our animals are. We assure one another that it is true, what they say about animals taking on the personalities of their owners.

I don't know what to hay happened with our kids.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

Cedar

:wine:
 

Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
As he was speaking I asked myself why I would challenge a delirious and ill person, who so needed me to listen? And I stayed silent and felt love for him and pride in myself.

I am so proud and happy for you, Copa.

It is true what they say about deciphering reality. All the ways there are to do that. Now we are finding a true way, a reliable way, for us and for our kids.

Did M find his daughter?

What a fine man, to have searched for her like that.

Hard lessons; so hard.

I realized the sub-text that had always been there. I love him. He needs me. He loves me. I need him.

You are engaged in something together. It matters what you say and how you think about him and what you do. Changing how we see them, and ourselves, changes everything.

Now, there is room to grow in a thousand directions, forever.

Something different; some new intention that changes everything.

That is as apt a description of sacred as any I know.

Miracles, happening every day. Every single day.

Oh my God. I looked at him. I loved him that second. And he me.

So language delayed, he wanted to talk...with the few words he had. "Doggy," he said. "It doggy." And sense of humor, how he could laugh. How I made him laugh.

Yep.

And no one can change or color or take that away. Not from us, and not from them. But they were too little to remember. So, it is good to remember those times with them. Maybe, it will help them love themselves a little more.

What could it hurt?

A wealth, a whole, unexpected, forgotten, source of unending wealth and strength and joy underlying all things.

So happy for you, Copa.

And for your son.

You are a wonderful mother and mentor.

He is afraid, too.

Thank you.

My pleasure.

:O)

Cedar
 

Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
All I have to do is turn the channel

Locus of control.

Good for you, Copa. This is huge.

By staying in bed, by taking on an identity of someone ill, sad, negating my competencies and undermining my hope...I have dissolved...(in a manner different than did my father) but dissolved nonetheless...so that my son might be saved.

When in truth, it is your strength and your joy that will save him. And, if he chooses not to be saved, then those good, strong things that you taught him will be how he knows to navigate whatever it is that is coming for him next.

You are doing so well, Copa.

So fast. You must have been ready, so ready, for this. Just a little affirmation. That was all you needed. Your son is of the same bloodline. He is strong enough to meet and explore and savor and create his own life.

What a joy our children have been. I have never been part of something so real.

Mine are interesting people. I am thinking yours is an interesting person, too. I mean, actually interesting in a fascinating way. We just need to be strong enough to be who we are. They are overwhelming. They suffer, they experience intense joy; they love and they hate so passionately. They throw away what they have with both hands and they believe that whatever they do, we will want to know.

Somehow, they seem fascinated with us, too.

We were good moms, Copa.

That is the measure of it.

It never once occurs to our kids that we don't want to know. And here is the other side of that coin: We always do want to know. But first? We have to stiffen our spines.

None of this is easy.

But we are doing so well, Copa.

Me, too.

Cedar
 

Lil

Well-Known Member
Copa and Cedar, I've been reading along in your comments to each other and just had to comment a bit myself.

First, a lot of this has resonated with me. It's so hard to find a happy medium, a way to get past the hurt and just have any kind of relationship. I tend to end up in the drama because I keep responding, offering advice, offering reminders. I need to stop.

But I did finally leap into the words and actions of detachment parenting. Seat of my pants thing, again. It was the one thing I could not make myself do. I could only see myself in the positions of either of my children, with no one to help me and no one to love me or believe in me.

This is my problem...I have a terrible time with this. His "I have no one. No one likes me. I have no friends. I have no one but you." is SO SAD! I think of the times in my life when I felt really alone. There was a time when he was little, after the ex, before Jabber, when I remember thinking that if I died on a Friday at home the poor baby wouldn't be found until sometime Monday or Tuesday, whenever my job alerted someone I was missing...I was that isolated. But I survived. I made friends eventually. He can too.

You know Cesar the Dog Whisperer? Well, he says: What does he say. Something about the attitude needs to be calm / dominant.

I had to laugh at this, even though it's really very good advice. When our pups where little we took them to obedience school and learned that to tell them NO you go "AH-AH!" It gets their attention better. We would catch ourselves doing that to our son! He got so upset when we'd treat him like a dog. LOL!!! There's a South Park episode with the Dog Whisperer training Cartman. (Warning for language!)

 
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Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
I wanted this to be a redemption story. It was. Until it wasn't.

The story is not over, Copa.

None of us knows how this is all going to work out. Maybe Copa, it is a redemption story. So, we might as well love ourselves and one another to the degree that we are able today. That is not too much to work with, then. To hold that intention, I mean.

Just for today, just for this minute, this one, shining moment out of time, I can do this. I can make a boundary. I can take it on faith that I am here on purpose, that there is no one else out there who could do this, who could magically fix this either, because we, my child and I, are in a difficult situation, for sure. I don't know where this is going, but I do know my intention is correct. That is all I know. This is my child, and I love him. I can remain present. I can hear my child's words and let go and be my best mother for him, and for me, and we will get through this thing.

Small steps.

No catastrophizing.

Child of Mine describes worry as a fast getaway on a wooden horse.

I really liked that, when I read it.

Cedar
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
Did M find his daughter? What a fine man, to have searched for her like that.
No. He never did. He found me and I have her name.

It never once occurs to our kids that we don't want to know. And here is the other side of that coin: We always do want to know. But first? We have to stiffen our spines.
My son was appalled that I was not listening. He could not believe I was refusing to listen.

Nobody commented on what I think was my best line of yesterday: "I think my son is thinking, where is she and why is she acting so weird?"

Somehow, they seem fascinated with us, too. We were good moms, Copa.
I thought about that yesterday but didn't know how to put it into words.

My son does not want to let go, of me. But not in a regressive sense. He not only needs me. He wants me to be there with him, not just for him. I interest him. He is proud of me. I have not seen this for a long time.

At the deepest level, he has always known who I am. Recognized me. In the Object Relations sense. That was our connection from the beginning. We saw each other in an instant and woke each other up. Like Sleeping Beauty.

I think for a long, long time I felt shame. Imagine what it felt like to be rejected by him. To feel trashed. Of course, I see it was developmental. In part or all. Who knows?

I am thinking of my Mother now. How it must have been so hard for her to feel rejected at the deepest level for who she was by both her daughters. For so long.

And whether or not she could voice it or not, what a gift of love to her to be embraced by us as she was dying.

With my son, I had lost touch with who I had been, when I felt he had rejected me.

With him from the beginning I was hope, a fierce, protecting love. There was only him.

So many things happened to that person, I was. But I see that the love is still there untouched. But it cannot be that same love, as you say.

But I do know that whatever comes next, I want to love my children, my husband, myself. My animals, my home.
At the end there is only this. And this:
That is all I know. This is my child, and I love him. I can remain present. I can hear my child's words and let go and be my best mother for him, and for me, and we will get through this thing.
Thank you, Cedar.
 

Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
But I survived. I made friends eventually. He can too.

He has made friends already, Lil. But he is like a puppy, in a way. All innocent and trusting and demanding and just so happy to be here, in the world. Which is scary. With us, with their mothers, our sons and daughters share the scary things, the times they are sad or puzzled or hurt. This is a good thing. I wish I had taken my daughter seriously, wish I'd said true things like we learn to say to our kids here on the site.

Or I wish I had just listened, to either of my kids. Just kind of been there for them, instead of ~ well, instead of what I did, I guess. Now we know though. We learn from one another and sometimes, there is a better way that we try. Sometimes, we can just listen and say: "I'm sorry that is happening. What are you going to do?" I am going to add, "What have you learned?" That is going to be my question that I am going to ask my people from now on. I never used to do things like that. I always had the answers, already ~ from my helicopter mom training.

Heh.

No one will miss it. They already know all my advice by heart.

***

Which saint was it ~ Teresa of Avilla or someone like that. Anyway, she is a very famous saint. The most enduring of her comments: "All will be well. And all manner of things will be well."

So that is going to be my internal message to myself, and to my people, I am going to begin saying: "Really? That really happened? Wow. What did you learn?"

That should make for a really interesting conversation.

***

I wonder whether I have told this story since you and Jabber have been here with us.

This is a true story. It happened in the place where D H and I live in Winter.

So, there are eagles, where we live. There is a live cam where the nest is. It must be that eagles mate for life and return to the same place each year to make their nests? However that part works, when the pair are nesting, our little local paper runs status updates on the nest, the eggs, the hatchlings...and on when the babies are flown. So, something like two years ago now, the hatchlings would not leave the nest.

They just stayed there.

The parents continued to feed them.

And then, one day, the eagles deconstructed the nest from the bottom.

True story.

The babies were fine. The parents continued to care for them, to teach them to hunt and so on. The mated pair have returned to that same place to nest again. They have not had fledglings that refused to leave the nest any other year, before or since.

Here is the second lesson: Same parents. Same nest. Different fledglings. And with those particular fledglings, everything that used to work stopped working.

***

Ha!!! I love South Park. Ha! I remember that episode!

:O)

Cedar
 

Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
Nobody commented on what I think was my best line of yesterday: "I think my son is thinking, where is she and why is she acting so weird?"

Oh, I suppose that's because it's you we care about. We were all in it for you. We know you love you son, but we don't know him.

We are right here, every one of us, for you.

:O)

That could be it.

Cedar

:starplucker:
 

Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
He is proud of me. I have not seen this for a long time.

I am so glad you have seen it, now.

No. He never did. He found me and I have her name.

We break and break and break. And that makes us who we are, today. It changes the quality of the light, and we see things with a different kind of clarity, after we are broken.

Just like in that song, Halleluiah.

We saw each other in an instant and woke each other up. Like Sleeping Beauty.

I so get this.

Isn't that an amazing thing, that we had them, that we had those particular people, in our lives? Once I could begin letting go of "me, me, me" where my kids were concerned, I could see the size of the thing they were battling. I am finding them heroic, now. This is not where they wanted to take their lives, either.

So, I can find compassion for them, now. Before, I was always so darn frustrated with them, or so busy cooking food and being a mom and being a beggar wanting them to stand up and validate for everyone else I suppose, the mother I had been. (In other words, maybe to validate that I had not been my mother, in my mothering. Desperate times, when everything fell apart. I was so self-centered about it, too. Cheesh.)

Like Cartman's mom really, in the clip Lil posted for us.

We are all learning. I am learning to trust that I don't know, and that that is okay. And they are learning, maybe they are learning, that they don't need to be defensive because the elephant in the room is that I was disappointed in them for reasons that had nothing to do with them.

Maybe this is true. I think that is what I see. I think that is what I feel from and for them.

I think for a long, long time I felt shame. Imagine what it felt like to be rejected by him. To feel trashed. Of course, I see it was developmental. In part or all. Who knows?

Here is the thing I have been able to figure out about that one.

When they were little and they threw a tantrum, or broke the Bert and Ernie cookie jar, or did any of the things they did...I dealt with it, easily and well. It was not until I fell out of my depth that I felt shame at the way they saw me. They did bad things a million times, when they were little and of course they did. That is what parenting is, right? Toilet training, table manners, reading and friendship and chores and allowances and money management. I could do that. So...what happened when the situation was bigger than I knew how to parent them through?

Who's shame was that, and over what, exactly.

As I am learning more here on the site, and especially as I am working through some of the ugliness of how I was taught to see myself, I am seeing my kids so differently.

So differently.

So this is all bound up in self image, in validation, in shame, like you said, Copa. But it is changing now, how I see my kids. I know enabling changes relationships. I can see that part, and those frustrations, pretty clearly now. But what was that shame, those feelings of utter worthlessness ~ what was that about?

It wasn't on them, Copa. It had to do with failure, and that had to do with my upbringing.

I have read about fathers and mothers who love their kids through their addictions without enabling. They don't talk so much about shame, because that is not the issue, for them.

I don't know more than that about this. I am still having a look at that.

And I will do all I know or can learn to get through it. I will have those shaming incidents from my childhood, from all of my life where my mother was there, cheapening every sacred thing. I will witness for myself, and I will see her, finally, for who she is. That dream I reported? That was me, trying to protect myself from going further.

She has no claim on me.

My mother is very proud of my appearance. It feels a little like being a whore, actually. Like eye candy woman on the arm of a decrepit old man who holds the whore in his power with money.

Ahem.

Well anyway, that's where I am working, today.

That shame never had a thing to do with my kids. My kids are coping with some terrible, destructive things.

I really do see them as heroes, now. And heroes never do need their mothers to fight their battles.

But they do want to tell them about their adventures, about their heroism, once they are safely home.

I am thinking of my Mother now. How it must have been so hard for her to feel rejected at the deepest level for who she was by both her daughters. For so long.

There is healing here for you, Copa.

It happens to me that posting about it is witness enough. You are welcome to post on any thread of mine, or to begin one of your own. It isn't the things we say back to one another that heals us. It is gathering our thoughts, daring to gather our thoughts, and making the shame of it a public thing. All at once, you will see yourself as the defenseless, thirty pound little girl these things happened to. Or the adolescent who needed a mother to tell her true things. Or the young mother with no one to turn to.

No one at all.

Then, you will be able to witness for yourself. You will see your courage, your brilliance and integrity in having somehow come through it.

And you did come through it, Copa. Dealing with life is a hard thing. But you did it. Staying present when our children are suffering requires gut level stability. No time to choose the right thing, to take the high road, to accept the pain for someone else.

None of those things are going to help our children, Copa.

We can model strength and openness and courage. We can honestly admire them for who they are and for the battles they fight and the things they triumph or lose themselves in.

And that is all we can do.

Believe they can do this.

And that is the very thing our mothers destroyed in us.

I hate my mother, today. Today, I hate my mother. It was one thing to forgive her when I thought I was doing alright in spite of whatever happened when I was a little girl, a beautiful young adolescent, a new mother, in her charge.

But no more.

I have protected her in my heart, have protected her from what I know, long enough. My children matter more than she does. I am not at a point yet where I can say I matter more than she does.

I will be there, soon.

I am doing all these things because I never want those things my mother did to weaken me again. In some crisis in my life, if I am weak and if I fail, it will be on my own. Not because of her, not ever again.

Cedar
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
Toilet training, table manners, reading and friendship and chores and allowances and money management. I could do that. So...what happened when the situation was bigger than I knew how to parent them through?

Who's shame was that, and over what, exactly.
Both of us, Cedar, and many more besides us, established identities as women for which we were not destined. We defied expectations.

No.
It is this I choose.
Not this.

And then, when our children go off the rails, it is as if fate tells us: Who were you to think that you were different, better (than am I).

"Your mother was right. You are a little, dirty, pishy thing. You deserve nothing. And you didn't deserve to be protected (by me.)"

And now it turns into our mother's voices: "You are only what I say you are. Nothing."

And then we are destroyed. Hope. Destroyed.
Strength. Gone.

We forfeit the identity we had created in defiance.

I believe we do so voluntarily, believing that if we do so, this will assuage the Gods and our beloved children will be restored, unscathed.

Deliberately, we cut ourselves off at our beautiful legs (Thank you, TishtheDish) on which we have stood, so that our children may live. It does not work.
But what was that shame, those feelings of utter worthlessness ~ what was that about?
The shame is that we had wanted more, defying our mothers.

We abandon ourselves which we have created defying our pasts, to make them right. Belatedly. OK I will prostrate myself. Please spare my child.

It did not work.

xxxxxxx

M is afraid I will stop the Tango. He sees me trying one thing, than another, stopping each, when I find the defect (in others) to excuse once again abandoning myself.

While M loves my son and does not want me to turn away from the love and the responsibility I feel M holds my son responsible.

After each conversation my son and I have, he sees, my strength, undermined. I feel guilt and some shame I have not changed, sooner; that is, experienced all of this with power, not adding to the burden.

And he worries why I am at the computer so much.

My Spanish is not good enough to explain to him what this site means.

When reading postings on this site my feelings have been hurt or I have read here something that scares me, I have told him. A mistake.

I do not have the words to explain the good, strong things here.

My son just called. He has to leave where he has been staying. Some conflict. He wants to come here to talk. I say, OK. But not to stay. Your next step, is yours, to make.
 
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Copabanana

Well-Known Member
You are engaged in something together. It matters what you say and how you think about him and what you do. Changing how we see them, and ourselves, changes everything.

Now, there is room to grow in a thousand directions, forever.

Something different; some new intention that changes everything.

That is as apt a description of sacred as any I know.

Miracles, happening every day. Every single day.
It has already started changing, Cedar. Thank you.
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
This is my problem...I have a terrible time with this. His "I have no one. No one likes me. I have no friends. I have no one but you." is SO SAD! I think of the times in my life when I felt really alone. There was a time when he was little, after the ex, before Jabber, when I remember thinking that if I died on a Friday at home the poor baby wouldn't be found until sometime Monday or Tuesday, whenever my job alerted someone I was missing...I was that isolated. But I survived. I made friends eventually. He can too.
Lil, I was reading this entire thoughtful thread by Cedar and Copa, two of in my opinion the most intelligent posters we have (although everyone is intelligent...they just have such a way with words) and what YOU said finally prompted me to chime in with a few thoughts.
Lil, he's not alone. He doesn't know alone. He has you and Jabber and that is huge. So many adult kids don't have parents that are invested so dearly in their lives. So when he says he has "nobody" he is insulting you in a way.
I'd like to talk about friends.
Your son sounds like he is a natural introvert. I can relate to that. It is harder to make friends if most people do not interest you or if you are turned off by large groups at parties. But even introverts like me and your son need people time. You know who can make that happen? WE CAN! YOUR SON CAN! Working is a great place to find people to at least talk to and, like at my job, we all really care about each other. Ok, it's a unqiue type of environment, but he will have people to talk to at a job. And maybe learn to care for him. Who he is. Behind his fear and dysfunction. The more people you meet, the more you may find somebody you "click" with...maybe even a female ;) Is it easy? Not if you are shy and introverted and prefer one-on-one to crowds. But is it possible? YES!!!!
But, Lil, it requires work. If you aren't the natural life of the party it requires work.
Your son doesn't go anywhere or do anything so of course he has no friends. That's on him. The more you get out, the more people you meet. And I'm not talking about those friendly drug dealers on the street corner.
Your son is not pathetic. He just knows how to make his life easy and what to say to make you cry. Who wouldn't cry if their chld called to say they were friendless? That's an old trick.
Like the Job Corps, to have people in your son's life HE has to go places where people are. When I was on unemployment, I spent that whole time volunteering at different places. I swear, it was one of the most fun times of my life and I met so many people that my people knew me that I didn't even know. They remembered me. I also joined a drama group and that was fun too. I can't do that now with work, and I miss it.
Your son should go to the Job Corps. I hope he does. Never forget if he is that alone aside from you and Jabber it is because he is not trying to broaden his world. He's the only one who can do that for himself.

Ok, stepping off the soap box Sorry for the interruption.
 
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