How to detach when grandkids are involved.
- Thread starter End of our rope
- Start date
Childofmine
one day at a time
End I would not bail her out but I understand this is your first time and if you do, you do.
She is safer there than on the streets doing what she was doing before she was arrested. I don't understand the value of bailing her out from her attorneys standpoint. He can visit her in jail to build his case.
She is safer there than on the streets doing what she was doing before she was arrested. I don't understand the value of bailing her out from her attorneys standpoint. He can visit her in jail to build his case.
The purpose is natural consequences for the choices we make and the responsibility those choices create for ourselves and those around us. You stepping in to save her from her own choices, in my opinion, sends her the message that her poor choices will be tolerated and excused. That is NOT real life. In real life for all of us, our actions create consequences. A defense attorney is going to tell you what he/she is educated to tell you, not what is necessarily the best thing for your daughter outside of the justice system. What is best for OUR kids, is usually to suffer the consequences of their behavior and stay in jail without our rescuing them. She is not 15 or 19, she is a 32 year old adult woman who knows better.
Your daughter sounds as if because of her past illnesses, she has been able to skate through life with little regard for the consequences of her actions or how she impacts those in her wake........her kids and you and your wife. She stole from another person. She violated their rights. She broke the law. It also sounds as if she KNEW these people and she stole from them anyway.
It was the hardest thing for me to allow my daughter to stay in jail when I could have bailed her out. Each time she's been there, she's gotten less entitled, more grateful, more aware of my feelings and the rights of others. It's been a learning curve for her. It's not been easy on her or on me, and in fact, I vacillated as you are, wondering if I were doing the right thing........... but, for me, it was the right thing. My daughter made the poor choices. Each and every time. And, she needed to face the consequences. That's how life works. And, when we face the consequences, we (sometimes, hopefully) learn from them. It doesn't sound as if your daughter has faced many consequences without your interference. You've been protecting her from herself. She may not learn this time, or next time, or even the time after that, but at least, this way, she has a chance to learn how to take responsibility. Don't take the chance away from her. Try to live within this terrible uncertainty we humans don't fare well in..........try to step back and keep remembering this one very important component, SHE made the choice to steal, SHE did that. YOU didn't. YOU are not responsible for her choices. SHE is.
What will she do when you and your wife are no longer around to pick up the pieces?
End of our rope
Member
What she was doing before this was filling out forms for the kids to go to a weeklong summer camp. There is clearly a double life going on here and we do not know the extent of the other but this is her first time to reach such a point.
Our visit tonight was of course the most humiliating experience of our lives. Having to talk to her via a video camera and not even a chair for her to sit on. She had to sit on her knees to be seen on the camera. The 30 minutes was full of conciliatory statements of course. It is apparent that she has figured out just how much she has screwed up. We have never seen her this contrite.
All of her "Friends" who she always said never judged her also have not stepped up to bail her out either. It has been quite an eye opener for her. We are walking around kind of in a trance is this real is it a dream is it a nightmare?
Our visit tonight was of course the most humiliating experience of our lives. Having to talk to her via a video camera and not even a chair for her to sit on. She had to sit on her knees to be seen on the camera. The 30 minutes was full of conciliatory statements of course. It is apparent that she has figured out just how much she has screwed up. We have never seen her this contrite.
All of her "Friends" who she always said never judged her also have not stepped up to bail her out either. It has been quite an eye opener for her. We are walking around kind of in a trance is this real is it a dream is it a nightmare?
BusynMember
Well-Known Member
"Actions speak louder than words."
Our difficult children are always contrite when they want us to rescue them and they usually say what we want to hear. Doing it if we give in, not so much.
Our difficult children are always contrite when they want us to rescue them and they usually say what we want to hear. Doing it if we give in, not so much.
End of our rope
Member
I am finding it so difficult to concentrate on even the smallest thing. My mind is constantly on my troubles today. I have sat down at my desk a half a dozen times already this morning to pay bills and can't find the focus to get through them.
BusynMember
Well-Known Member
I promise this will be my last post in this thread.
It is your decision to allow the bad choices of your almost middle aged daughter to affect you so badly that you can not do simple things. We were all there at one time. If you want to learn to detach with love, as most of us are doing, you can HAVE a good life even though your daughter chooses not to. The ladies here are wonderful at helping...they helped and still help ME. If you are choosing to stay enmeshed with your daughter's problems, you will probably not improve her situation or your own and those of your other loved ones. The decision is 100% in your hands.
I say a gentle good-bye and wish you the best of luck, whatever you decide to do. I hope one day you realize that your life matters as much as your daughters does.
It is your decision to allow the bad choices of your almost middle aged daughter to affect you so badly that you can not do simple things. We were all there at one time. If you want to learn to detach with love, as most of us are doing, you can HAVE a good life even though your daughter chooses not to. The ladies here are wonderful at helping...they helped and still help ME. If you are choosing to stay enmeshed with your daughter's problems, you will probably not improve her situation or your own and those of your other loved ones. The decision is 100% in your hands.
I say a gentle good-bye and wish you the best of luck, whatever you decide to do. I hope one day you realize that your life matters as much as your daughters does.
I'm sorry EOOR, it is a horrible experience to see our adult kids in jail having to deal with the results of their choices.
Just out of curiosity, that summer camp she was filling forms out for, will you be paying for that?
It is not much of a double life really if you provide housing, pay all her bills, pay for all her needs, take care of the kids and their needs and she does the minimum and then goes out to "party," which in this case looks like using drugs. If that is true, then she is making childish choices, acting like a child, leading any life she feels like leading, because she has the freedom to do that, you provide that for her. She is not leading a double life, she is acting like a 14 year old. You take care of all of her needs and she can be carefree and irresponsible. That may not be the case, I may have not read that correctly, however, if it is, you may want to rethink the choices you're making. Her ability to be a functioning adult is greatly hindered by you enabling her.
I did much of that for my daughter as well. It was an eye opener for her when I stopped. Over time, with my continuing to set strong boundaries and say NO, she changed.
At 32 years old, even with the illnesses you described, your daughter should have launched out on her own. Doing that is what provides us with self esteem, self respect, resourcefulness, courage and strength. Getting a free ride creates dependence, entitlement, selfishness and generally someone who feels it necessary to use others and manipulate them into getting their needs met.
In the 2 years I've been stepping out of that role of caretaker for my adult child, I've watched her gain momentum in being able to care for herself and feel good about her choices, treat me much better, respect me and my boundaries, find her own way and gain strength in that and be able to cope much better with life in general. She is still learning how to be a functioning adult, but now she IS learning.
That trance you speak of was called "THE FOG" by my therapist. It is the place we parents go when we stop the enabling and inwardly, we do battle with wanting to save them versus not doing anything. It creates an emotional stalemate, a place where we're stuck not knowing what to do, how to act, where to begin.........we can't see a way out.............we're in the fog. My experience was it was best to wait, to refrain from making any choices until I could see a little clearer. It's a place I experienced many times as I changed MY behavior and my responses to my daughter.
You've been protecting and rescuing your daughter for many, many years, shifting out of that role is not going to be easy, it will be a process. I can understand how you can't concentrate, I think that is a common experience, we parents are devastated by these changes, it takes time and a lot of support to get through it all and be able to feel good.
Do some kind things for YOU today. Try to take the focus off of your daughter just for today. She is dealing with her life now, let her do that. You deal with yours, go for a drive with your wife, go out to lunch, play golf, do something that keeps you busy but you also enjoy. My heart goes out to you, I know just how you feel.........it is really hard..........just take one step at a time, one moment at a time........and pretty soon, you'll feel better.
Just out of curiosity, that summer camp she was filling forms out for, will you be paying for that?
It is not much of a double life really if you provide housing, pay all her bills, pay for all her needs, take care of the kids and their needs and she does the minimum and then goes out to "party," which in this case looks like using drugs. If that is true, then she is making childish choices, acting like a child, leading any life she feels like leading, because she has the freedom to do that, you provide that for her. She is not leading a double life, she is acting like a 14 year old. You take care of all of her needs and she can be carefree and irresponsible. That may not be the case, I may have not read that correctly, however, if it is, you may want to rethink the choices you're making. Her ability to be a functioning adult is greatly hindered by you enabling her.
I did much of that for my daughter as well. It was an eye opener for her when I stopped. Over time, with my continuing to set strong boundaries and say NO, she changed.
At 32 years old, even with the illnesses you described, your daughter should have launched out on her own. Doing that is what provides us with self esteem, self respect, resourcefulness, courage and strength. Getting a free ride creates dependence, entitlement, selfishness and generally someone who feels it necessary to use others and manipulate them into getting their needs met.
In the 2 years I've been stepping out of that role of caretaker for my adult child, I've watched her gain momentum in being able to care for herself and feel good about her choices, treat me much better, respect me and my boundaries, find her own way and gain strength in that and be able to cope much better with life in general. She is still learning how to be a functioning adult, but now she IS learning.
That trance you speak of was called "THE FOG" by my therapist. It is the place we parents go when we stop the enabling and inwardly, we do battle with wanting to save them versus not doing anything. It creates an emotional stalemate, a place where we're stuck not knowing what to do, how to act, where to begin.........we can't see a way out.............we're in the fog. My experience was it was best to wait, to refrain from making any choices until I could see a little clearer. It's a place I experienced many times as I changed MY behavior and my responses to my daughter.
You've been protecting and rescuing your daughter for many, many years, shifting out of that role is not going to be easy, it will be a process. I can understand how you can't concentrate, I think that is a common experience, we parents are devastated by these changes, it takes time and a lot of support to get through it all and be able to feel good.
Do some kind things for YOU today. Try to take the focus off of your daughter just for today. She is dealing with her life now, let her do that. You deal with yours, go for a drive with your wife, go out to lunch, play golf, do something that keeps you busy but you also enjoy. My heart goes out to you, I know just how you feel.........it is really hard..........just take one step at a time, one moment at a time........and pretty soon, you'll feel better.
End of our rope
Member
When we moved her back in with us as her health was so bad. We did not know about the Celiac disease and her oncologist was concerned that the Lymphoma had returned. We provided a place to get better and primarily a place for the kids to be safe and get the constant attention that kids their age need. Yes we paid for summer camps, we didn't want the kids to suffer just because she can't hold a job. Their father is so far behind in support that he will never be able to get caught up.
We enabled all of these things hoping to start a new path, a new set of habits. Obviously we have failed to make a difference. Yes she has failed to change I get that at so many levels. Our motivation is and will always be to protect the innocents.
What ever the charges will ultimately be she will be held accountable. I cannot change that.
I wish I could just lay it down today but I can't.
Stick with me Recovering I am liable to screw this up!
We enabled all of these things hoping to start a new path, a new set of habits. Obviously we have failed to make a difference. Yes she has failed to change I get that at so many levels. Our motivation is and will always be to protect the innocents.
What ever the charges will ultimately be she will be held accountable. I cannot change that.
I wish I could just lay it down today but I can't.
Stick with me Recovering I am liable to screw this up!
I'm sticking with you EOOR, like glue, until you tell me to bug off, I'm here.
An army of people pulled me out of the fog, (many of them right here), my feeling is if you want to be pulled out, I'm going to hang tough to do whatever I can to help you do that, like so many helped me.
We're basically alone on this landscape, other then the other parents here, our counselors and maybe a friend or two, no one really gets the magnitude of this journey for us parents. You really have to live it to believe it, understand it and have any kind of hint of what it's like. In addition to all of the other dramatic feelings, we can feel quite alone and isolated. Even in the real world, it's hard to find understanding, other parents with easy child's never had to go through any of this, they just can't relate.
I'm right here with you EOOR.
Boy oh boy, I can so relate to all of your reasoning. Our daughters have had some tough breaks, yours with health issues, mine with dramatic life events she had no control over (her husband's suicide 14 years ago, which started the whole mess going) and of course, as 'good' parents, we stepped in.
Two years ago I put an enormous amount of money behind my daughter, my goal being to "get her to level ground." I did all the things you're doing. At the end of that year, absolutely nothing had changed except me, I had less money, more grey hair and I was exhausted from the effort of holding up another person's life. I was in that program I mentioned, I was in the exact place you're in now. Like you I was protecting my granddaughter who was already living with me. I had to learn a very different way of responding to my daughter. It took a village and it took time. But one step at a time, I did it. So can you and your wife. I won't lie to you, it was the hardest thing I've ever done, but I was determined and committed to changing the patterns I helped set up so that my daughter and I could be free to move in a new direction. Or at least have the opportunity to move in a new direction, it would be up to her to take the opportunity, I couldn't make her do it.
Sometimes we can't "lay it down," I really get that. I think when you get yourself to Al Anon, or NAMI or therapy or whatever support route you take, you will find, as I have, that the act of expressing all that is inside of you, venting, purging, will take a lot of the pressure off. There are so many, many feelings to recognize and feel, so much guilt, sorrow, disappointment, resentment..........you know what I'm talking about because you're in the midst of feeling all of that.........
I looked at it as a life lesson for ME. Sure it's about your daughter, but our attachment to being that rescuer, that provider, that all good parent, has a lot to do with our perception of ourselves and our beliefs in what is right and wrong and how we respond to the world. It has a lot to do with control. Letting go of that feels mighty powerless. Being a man probably has its own emotional charges around that. I've heard fathers say they should have been there to protect their children from all of life's perilous pitfalls...........how can we do that? It is not possible, but yet we keep trying.
We forget that our kids need to face those perilous pitfalls so they can learn from them. As we did. I learned a lot from the misfortune in my life. It made me strong and resilient. It made me feel as if I could conquer almost anything life threw at me. And, I did help to take that away from my daughter. And, when I realized I did that, I began changing it. I want her to be strong and resilient and capable of making good healthy choices. In order to help her get there, I had to say NO. I had to back out. I had to stop taking care of everything for her. I never stopped loving her, I stopped saving her.
To sit on the sidelines while our kids face their own consequences is pretty crummy. To be in your life, at home, safe in your environment while your daughter is in jail, feels bad. A wise warrior on this site told me when I was feeling so much guilt about having any kind of a life while my daughter was suffering, "what should you do recovering, wear a hair shirt?" Well, I had to look that up since I didn't know what that referred to, but when I did, I just cracked up. The image was so clear, I was wearing a hair shirt and suffering along with my daughter. That one line helped me so much. I could see that my suffering over her suffering was in fact, a choice and I could stop it at any time. I can't always take that shirt off, but it helped so much to know I was even wearing it!
Just for today EOOR, take the shirt off. Get in the car and drive away with your wife. Go take a walk around a lake and find some things to be grateful for. Life is still right here waiting to be lived, even though our kids are off the rails...........life can still have moments of peace, moments of serenity, moments of happiness. Grab them EOOR........and hold on...........you can put the shirt back on tomorrow............(if you want to)
An army of people pulled me out of the fog, (many of them right here), my feeling is if you want to be pulled out, I'm going to hang tough to do whatever I can to help you do that, like so many helped me.
We're basically alone on this landscape, other then the other parents here, our counselors and maybe a friend or two, no one really gets the magnitude of this journey for us parents. You really have to live it to believe it, understand it and have any kind of hint of what it's like. In addition to all of the other dramatic feelings, we can feel quite alone and isolated. Even in the real world, it's hard to find understanding, other parents with easy child's never had to go through any of this, they just can't relate.
I'm right here with you EOOR.
Boy oh boy, I can so relate to all of your reasoning. Our daughters have had some tough breaks, yours with health issues, mine with dramatic life events she had no control over (her husband's suicide 14 years ago, which started the whole mess going) and of course, as 'good' parents, we stepped in.
Two years ago I put an enormous amount of money behind my daughter, my goal being to "get her to level ground." I did all the things you're doing. At the end of that year, absolutely nothing had changed except me, I had less money, more grey hair and I was exhausted from the effort of holding up another person's life. I was in that program I mentioned, I was in the exact place you're in now. Like you I was protecting my granddaughter who was already living with me. I had to learn a very different way of responding to my daughter. It took a village and it took time. But one step at a time, I did it. So can you and your wife. I won't lie to you, it was the hardest thing I've ever done, but I was determined and committed to changing the patterns I helped set up so that my daughter and I could be free to move in a new direction. Or at least have the opportunity to move in a new direction, it would be up to her to take the opportunity, I couldn't make her do it.
Sometimes we can't "lay it down," I really get that. I think when you get yourself to Al Anon, or NAMI or therapy or whatever support route you take, you will find, as I have, that the act of expressing all that is inside of you, venting, purging, will take a lot of the pressure off. There are so many, many feelings to recognize and feel, so much guilt, sorrow, disappointment, resentment..........you know what I'm talking about because you're in the midst of feeling all of that.........
I looked at it as a life lesson for ME. Sure it's about your daughter, but our attachment to being that rescuer, that provider, that all good parent, has a lot to do with our perception of ourselves and our beliefs in what is right and wrong and how we respond to the world. It has a lot to do with control. Letting go of that feels mighty powerless. Being a man probably has its own emotional charges around that. I've heard fathers say they should have been there to protect their children from all of life's perilous pitfalls...........how can we do that? It is not possible, but yet we keep trying.
We forget that our kids need to face those perilous pitfalls so they can learn from them. As we did. I learned a lot from the misfortune in my life. It made me strong and resilient. It made me feel as if I could conquer almost anything life threw at me. And, I did help to take that away from my daughter. And, when I realized I did that, I began changing it. I want her to be strong and resilient and capable of making good healthy choices. In order to help her get there, I had to say NO. I had to back out. I had to stop taking care of everything for her. I never stopped loving her, I stopped saving her.
To sit on the sidelines while our kids face their own consequences is pretty crummy. To be in your life, at home, safe in your environment while your daughter is in jail, feels bad. A wise warrior on this site told me when I was feeling so much guilt about having any kind of a life while my daughter was suffering, "what should you do recovering, wear a hair shirt?" Well, I had to look that up since I didn't know what that referred to, but when I did, I just cracked up. The image was so clear, I was wearing a hair shirt and suffering along with my daughter. That one line helped me so much. I could see that my suffering over her suffering was in fact, a choice and I could stop it at any time. I can't always take that shirt off, but it helped so much to know I was even wearing it!
Just for today EOOR, take the shirt off. Get in the car and drive away with your wife. Go take a walk around a lake and find some things to be grateful for. Life is still right here waiting to be lived, even though our kids are off the rails...........life can still have moments of peace, moments of serenity, moments of happiness. Grab them EOOR........and hold on...........you can put the shirt back on tomorrow............(if you want to)
http://www.conductdisorders.com/community/threads/the-seven-stages-of-grief.58417/#post-632617
EOOR, you may want to read MWM's post, it's helpful..........
EOOR, you may want to read MWM's post, it's helpful..........
Is this the first time she was ever arrested? If so, she should be out soon and won't be under too much duress with the law. Although, I can somewhat "understand" (for lack of a better word) as why to she is stealing from you, she feels entitled, but she is stealing from other people which is boggling my mind right now. Since you give her so much, why is she stealing? Could she be a kleptomaniac?
I do understand that she has pretty major medical issues which really can't be ignored. Is there a happy medium some where here? You say you can't get her her own place, but she has stolen so much money from you. Are you sure that you can not? Can you rent her a very affordable studio apartment with utilities included so this way she will be out of your hair? Not sure where you live, but around here, a studio or even a one bedroom in a decent neighborhood furnished and all utilities included can be a total $600.00 a month. When she comes over to visit the kids, tell her she is only allowed in designated rooms. For example, if you have a two story house, allow her only on the first floor and keep money and valuable up stairs. Let her hold down a part time job for extra spending money or apply for disability. It's better than her stealing tens of thousands of dollars from you, no and at the same time helping her? This should be the end of it though. That is more than enough.
I do understand that she has pretty major medical issues which really can't be ignored. Is there a happy medium some where here? You say you can't get her her own place, but she has stolen so much money from you. Are you sure that you can not? Can you rent her a very affordable studio apartment with utilities included so this way she will be out of your hair? Not sure where you live, but around here, a studio or even a one bedroom in a decent neighborhood furnished and all utilities included can be a total $600.00 a month. When she comes over to visit the kids, tell her she is only allowed in designated rooms. For example, if you have a two story house, allow her only on the first floor and keep money and valuable up stairs. Let her hold down a part time job for extra spending money or apply for disability. It's better than her stealing tens of thousands of dollars from you, no and at the same time helping her? This should be the end of it though. That is more than enough.
BusynMember
Well-Known Member
Guide Me: This is my opinion.
A parent should not pay for a grown child's housing. She should do it or sign up for subsidized housing or go to a shelter a nd follow the rules. Past medical problems are no excuse for stealing, abusing you, lying, refusing to work, etc. If she can't work, there is disability. There are rooms you can rent in private homes for as little as $300 month. It is not our role to be financially supporting our grown children forever. If this was a sweet young woman who had cancer and wanted to get better so she could be more independent, that is one thing. This is a nearly middle age woman who is currently not ill, but simply abusing her parents.
I've often said some people make the decision to care for their 60 year old abusive children when they are 80 and nobody can stop them from giving up their entire life trying to save an adult child who refuses the help. But the majority on this forum have not taken that route, feeling that it is best for both ourselves and our grown children to live separate lives and not destroy our own for theirs. Most of the time, taking care of them doesn't work anyway and two lives are ruined rather than only one.
Our difficult children are children who never grew up. It doesn't matter why they never grew up. They desperately need to grow up or they are going to really be in for it when we are gone. And, of course, WE matter as well and we should not feel responsible for 30, 40, 50, 60 year old "children" who refuse to act older than ten. Often when we have paid for their apartments or hotels, they have trashed them, left them, and gotten us into even more financial trouble. Most of the time our difficult children plain don't want to work. They want us to work and support them for as long as they can manipulate us to do it.
So I would disagree that it is a good idea to pay for this woman's needs when she could get assistance and probably is capable of working. If not, a lot of people on Disability still live independently.
A parent should not pay for a grown child's housing. She should do it or sign up for subsidized housing or go to a shelter a nd follow the rules. Past medical problems are no excuse for stealing, abusing you, lying, refusing to work, etc. If she can't work, there is disability. There are rooms you can rent in private homes for as little as $300 month. It is not our role to be financially supporting our grown children forever. If this was a sweet young woman who had cancer and wanted to get better so she could be more independent, that is one thing. This is a nearly middle age woman who is currently not ill, but simply abusing her parents.
I've often said some people make the decision to care for their 60 year old abusive children when they are 80 and nobody can stop them from giving up their entire life trying to save an adult child who refuses the help. But the majority on this forum have not taken that route, feeling that it is best for both ourselves and our grown children to live separate lives and not destroy our own for theirs. Most of the time, taking care of them doesn't work anyway and two lives are ruined rather than only one.
Our difficult children are children who never grew up. It doesn't matter why they never grew up. They desperately need to grow up or they are going to really be in for it when we are gone. And, of course, WE matter as well and we should not feel responsible for 30, 40, 50, 60 year old "children" who refuse to act older than ten. Often when we have paid for their apartments or hotels, they have trashed them, left them, and gotten us into even more financial trouble. Most of the time our difficult children plain don't want to work. They want us to work and support them for as long as they can manipulate us to do it.
So I would disagree that it is a good idea to pay for this woman's needs when she could get assistance and probably is capable of working. If not, a lot of people on Disability still live independently.
True, true. I didn't think of the damage and trashing the place. Seems like she is a never ending "pit" too when it comes to money. I feel bad for the harassment her father and mother must endure from her when it comes to $$$. Geez. I go through the same thing sometimes, however, thankfully, my daughter never stole from me.
EOOR, more info for you.......
five stages of grief - elisabeth kübler ross
EKR stage Interpretation
1 - Denial Denial is a conscious or unconscious refusal to accept facts, information, reality, etc., relating to the situation concerned. It's a defence mechanism and perfectly natural. Some people can become locked in this stage when dealing with a traumatic change that can be ignored. Death of course is not particularly easy to avoid or evade indefinitely.
2 - Anger
Anger can manifest in different ways. People dealing with emotional upset can be angry with themselves, and/or with others, especially those close to them. Knowing this helps keep detached and non-judgemental when experiencing the anger of someone who is very upset.
3 - Bargaining
Traditionally the bargaining stage for people facing death can involve attempting to bargain with whatever God the person believes in. People facing less serious trauma can bargain or seek to negotiate a compromise. For example "Can we still be friends?.." when facing a break-up. Bargaining rarely provides a sustainable solution, especially if it's a matter of life or death.
4 - Depression
Also referred to as preparatory grieving. In a way it's the dress rehearsal or the practice run for the 'aftermath' although this stage means different things depending on whom it involves. It's a sort of acceptance with emotional attachment. It's natural to feel sadness and regret, fear, uncertainty, etc. It shows that the person has at least begun to accept the reality.
5 - Acceptance Again this stage definitely varies according to the person's situation, although broadly it is an indication that there is some emotional detachment and objectivity. People dying can enter this stage a long time before the people they leave behind, who must necessarily pass through their own individual stages of dealing with the grief
five stages of grief - elisabeth kübler ross
EKR stage Interpretation
1 - Denial Denial is a conscious or unconscious refusal to accept facts, information, reality, etc., relating to the situation concerned. It's a defence mechanism and perfectly natural. Some people can become locked in this stage when dealing with a traumatic change that can be ignored. Death of course is not particularly easy to avoid or evade indefinitely.
2 - Anger
Anger can manifest in different ways. People dealing with emotional upset can be angry with themselves, and/or with others, especially those close to them. Knowing this helps keep detached and non-judgemental when experiencing the anger of someone who is very upset.
3 - Bargaining
Traditionally the bargaining stage for people facing death can involve attempting to bargain with whatever God the person believes in. People facing less serious trauma can bargain or seek to negotiate a compromise. For example "Can we still be friends?.." when facing a break-up. Bargaining rarely provides a sustainable solution, especially if it's a matter of life or death.
4 - Depression
Also referred to as preparatory grieving. In a way it's the dress rehearsal or the practice run for the 'aftermath' although this stage means different things depending on whom it involves. It's a sort of acceptance with emotional attachment. It's natural to feel sadness and regret, fear, uncertainty, etc. It shows that the person has at least begun to accept the reality.
5 - Acceptance Again this stage definitely varies according to the person's situation, although broadly it is an indication that there is some emotional detachment and objectivity. People dying can enter this stage a long time before the people they leave behind, who must necessarily pass through their own individual stages of dealing with the grief
DammitJanet
Well-Known Member
I started reading this post and then realized it was from awhile ago. I have to admit I skipped to the end so I havent read everything that everyone else has said.
I do understand a lot of how you are feeling. My youngest son, the one who is the major pain in the rumpus, was born with birth defects that effect him still today. If you saw him walking from the back you would think he was a 70 year old man with a dowager's hump and shoulder's that are not level. He basically shuffles. He is in constant pain. He also inherited my maternal line of mental illness.
When I left off my son and his child were just staying in our house until they could find somewhere to go. That didnt happen. Because he kept stealing from us and because we also have an older son who doesnt seem able to fly the nest appropriately we made a very unusual choice. We left. We did decide to charge them rent for our home but their father and I found a small place to rent in our town that we love.
Now I do have more experience with my son ending up in jail than you do. I refuse to bail him out anymore.
His father and I do have a huge difference of opinion on his kids. I feel that we shouldnt engage much with him unless and until he can show us that he is actively working towards change. Show...not words. If that means we dont go over and make nice so we can pick up his youngest child...well oh well. We get his oldest daughter from her mother because they are from two different women. I dont have to deal with him when it comes to his oldest daughter. Problem is his father feels the two girls should be together as much as possible so he wants to go get the youngest whenever we have the oldest. I tend to differ. I have told him that if it was that we were getting the youngest from her mother it would be a different story but since she basically lives with my son, that isnt to be.
At one time I thought I would love to raise his oldest daughter. She is the love of my life. I dont feel that way so much anymore. I love having her here but for much more than a week or two and I am so tired. I would do it if I had to but I hope I dont.
I also get the grandparent's rights thing. We dont have them here either. I have always tried to keep a good relationship with the oldest grandchild's mother so I have access to her. At this point everyone knows it would hurt her too badly to keep her away from us.
I dont know that there are any answers. Oh...one thing I did see you write somewhere. You said that you dont read anywhere on this site about success stories. Well I think you could consider me one.
I was once the kids we talk about on this board. I was a really horrible kid and teen. I know now that I was born with bipolar but back then no one ever even thought about that. I was just thought of as bad. My mother was worse. My dad did have to put his foot down with me when my parents divorced when I was 18 and he cut off the purse strings. He would talk to me but I firmly knew that he would do nothing for me as long as I was not doing the right things. Eventually I did grow up and it took me a long time to prove to him that I was being responsible and doing the right stuff but eventually he started getting closer to me again. By the time my kids were teens and it was so hard, he was firmly in my corner giving me support. I am glad he handled things the way he did.
I do understand a lot of how you are feeling. My youngest son, the one who is the major pain in the rumpus, was born with birth defects that effect him still today. If you saw him walking from the back you would think he was a 70 year old man with a dowager's hump and shoulder's that are not level. He basically shuffles. He is in constant pain. He also inherited my maternal line of mental illness.
When I left off my son and his child were just staying in our house until they could find somewhere to go. That didnt happen. Because he kept stealing from us and because we also have an older son who doesnt seem able to fly the nest appropriately we made a very unusual choice. We left. We did decide to charge them rent for our home but their father and I found a small place to rent in our town that we love.
Now I do have more experience with my son ending up in jail than you do. I refuse to bail him out anymore.
His father and I do have a huge difference of opinion on his kids. I feel that we shouldnt engage much with him unless and until he can show us that he is actively working towards change. Show...not words. If that means we dont go over and make nice so we can pick up his youngest child...well oh well. We get his oldest daughter from her mother because they are from two different women. I dont have to deal with him when it comes to his oldest daughter. Problem is his father feels the two girls should be together as much as possible so he wants to go get the youngest whenever we have the oldest. I tend to differ. I have told him that if it was that we were getting the youngest from her mother it would be a different story but since she basically lives with my son, that isnt to be.
At one time I thought I would love to raise his oldest daughter. She is the love of my life. I dont feel that way so much anymore. I love having her here but for much more than a week or two and I am so tired. I would do it if I had to but I hope I dont.
I also get the grandparent's rights thing. We dont have them here either. I have always tried to keep a good relationship with the oldest grandchild's mother so I have access to her. At this point everyone knows it would hurt her too badly to keep her away from us.
I dont know that there are any answers. Oh...one thing I did see you write somewhere. You said that you dont read anywhere on this site about success stories. Well I think you could consider me one.
I was once the kids we talk about on this board. I was a really horrible kid and teen. I know now that I was born with bipolar but back then no one ever even thought about that. I was just thought of as bad. My mother was worse. My dad did have to put his foot down with me when my parents divorced when I was 18 and he cut off the purse strings. He would talk to me but I firmly knew that he would do nothing for me as long as I was not doing the right things. Eventually I did grow up and it took me a long time to prove to him that I was being responsible and doing the right stuff but eventually he started getting closer to me again. By the time my kids were teens and it was so hard, he was firmly in my corner giving me support. I am glad he handled things the way he did.
End of our rope
Member
As we are going through all of this I appreciate all of comments and help. I am sure their are at least 100 more stages of grief but thanks for trying to help us contain all of what we are feeling.
Janet I have read many of your posts here and have found wisdom in your words. R.E. you are so on point.
We have our first NAMI meeting tonight so we are apprehensive as to what that will be like. We have our first Al-Anon meeting tomorrow night. I realize there is no "Normal Life" there is just life. That being said we could settle for just a little normal and a bit of peace.
Stick with us please as we navigate this new life.
Janet I have read many of your posts here and have found wisdom in your words. R.E. you are so on point.
We have our first NAMI meeting tonight so we are apprehensive as to what that will be like. We have our first Al-Anon meeting tomorrow night. I realize there is no "Normal Life" there is just life. That being said we could settle for just a little normal and a bit of peace.
Stick with us please as we navigate this new life.
Childofmine
one day at a time
End, hang in there. The fact that you are trying new things is huge, and not to be underestimated. Doing at least one thing new every day in this journey will lead all of us to changed ways of thinking and acting.
We will still feel what we feel and we will need to feel what we feel. That doesn't mean we have to act on those feelings today. Just feel them, let them flow through us, and sit with the aftermath for a time. Often, what happens is that we feel our feelings but we don't act on them.
Because we have learned that feelings aren't facts.
You are doing the next right thing in front of you, End.
We are here with you and we get it. We know the two steps forward and three steps backward and then, hopefully, four steps forward. It is a day by day life and process.
We will still feel what we feel and we will need to feel what we feel. That doesn't mean we have to act on those feelings today. Just feel them, let them flow through us, and sit with the aftermath for a time. Often, what happens is that we feel our feelings but we don't act on them.
Because we have learned that feelings aren't facts.
You are doing the next right thing in front of you, End.
We are here with you and we get it. We know the two steps forward and three steps backward and then, hopefully, four steps forward. It is a day by day life and process.
End of our rope
Member
How do you place all of this where it doesn't fill your every thought. Yes I am a chronic fixer. I completely confess to that but I cannot put this away. I cannot go clean the garage without it being in front of me. I have tried to bury myself in a project and it keeps working its way to the very front of my mind.
nlj
Well-Known Member
It's early days Rope. This isn't an easy quick process.
Cleaning the garage wouldn't help me - I needed (and still need) to do something that makes me concentrate, use my brain, something that leaves less space for my son to creep into. I get stuck into some Mathematics problems, but that's probably not for everyone. Concentrating on a complicated knitting pattern works too for me. Haven't you got something academic that you're interested in? or something that requires concentration? What about some DIY project that requires some head work?
Cleaning the garage wouldn't help me - I needed (and still need) to do something that makes me concentrate, use my brain, something that leaves less space for my son to creep into. I get stuck into some Mathematics problems, but that's probably not for everyone. Concentrating on a complicated knitting pattern works too for me. Haven't you got something academic that you're interested in? or something that requires concentration? What about some DIY project that requires some head work?
