I can't do this....

[Copabanana]

This kid has acumen. He has confidence. He has guts.

I feel called upon to quote myself again. Actually, Lil, he's got character and strength your son. He is just playing Peter Pan, because he is afraid to grow up. He loves his Mommy, lil.

Who was it that told us about the mommy and daddy birds who when their old enough babies did not want to leave the nest--I think it might have been Cedar. So what do they do? Mommy and Daddy Birds dismantle the nest so that the babies fall or fly.

 

[BusynMember]

About J. It is hard to kick out ones child. Children REALLY have to behave intolerably for parents to allow them to become homeless. Usually the behavior is repetitive. J is homeless because his parents, and probably the rest of his family and friends, can't live with him. So why should you?

I agree with Cop a about J. I have a soft heart for the homeless. I offer to buy them food. I volunteered for a shelter. I cried with them there. But I wouldn't trust any of them enough to bring them home.

We all need boundaries.

 

[dstc_99]

Lil do you ever think that maybe the little things they do irritate you more than they should? I ask because I find that my oldest Tay who is actually much better than ever before still irritates me over the littlest things. IE: she recently moved back in and is leaving shoes, purses, and stuff around the house. This stuff is normal for a 20 year old. I've just gotten used to it being three people in the house and us not having that stuff around. Seriously she leaves the shoes by the door the purse by the door and the (whatever else she had in hand) on the table inside the door. For most people that would be the accurate drop zone for me it drives me nuts. Remember she's only been here a week not 2.5 months like yours.

The reason I wonder is because I think that as the parents of kids like ours who can be angry, unpredictable, and just downright scary at times we develop a small case of PTSD. Or some version thereof. We see the small stuff and in our mind it is a precursor to something bigger. In our head we picture the next major meltdown or the kid homeless when in reality we are just making ourselves a nervous wreck.

in my humble opinion I think your son needs some major help. Personally I think it would be a great idea to get him away from all this crap and somewhere where he has a good influence. Easier said than done.

Until the perfect place appears out of the pale blue yonder I think you and Jabber should consider an alternate solution. This will sound bad but I treat my kid like she is a renter who doesn't pay rent. I expect nothing, I give nothing, and I ask nothing. IE: there is your room and your bathroom. Feel free to enjoy them. The living room is for the paying guests. She is welcome to join us for dinner if invited but if she wants other food she has to buy it and cook it. I don't clean up after her. I call her out to come do it and she either does or she can leave. She isn't allowed to veg on my couch all day. She's got a bed for that.

You mentioned a basement. Why not let him live down there and draw up a rental agreement? He pays a minimal amount monthly and you don't have to see him? You write in to the agreement the ability to spot check twice a month without notice? He isn't allowed in the rest of the house unless invited. He doesn't pay rent or breaks the rules you start the eviction process. Being a lawyer you could figure out the gist of a generic rental contract that would get him out of your hair.

 

[Copabanana]

an alternate solution

I like dstc's point of view, but I think I disagree in part.

I believe we still have a role as parents even though these kids are now adults. From my way of thinking (and I know not everybody agrees with me) I still have an obligation to act in such a way that does not foster my child's dependency or stunt his growth.

It is not always clear to me, what that is. But I knew that letting him lay around in my house, smoke marijuana, take control, etc. was not in his best interests, let alone mine.

There is no reason to think that lil and Jabber's son would do anything better or different if he was given the privilege of staying on in their house. Actually, in my mind, it would be a deterrent.

As far as their son needing a great deal of help, I disagree there, too. To me, he seems headstrong and self-indulgent, but he seems to control himself when he needs to.

As long as he believes his mother will suffer for him, he will not change. I believe that because I have seen that with my own eyes with my own son.

When he was acting like a nutcase with his conspiracy theories, successfully got his SSI, went in and out of residential treatment and crisis programs--I was the only one who did not think he was seriously and irrevocably mentally ill. The only one. That stupid psychiatrist/pschoanalyst I was paying $250 an hour was certain, just certain that my son (who he had never met) was a goner.

All I did was tell my son I would not talk to him if he spouted his fruitcake theories--and hung up if he did--and he was cured. *Well he still believes them (but I have not heard him mention Brexit one time)-- he has miraculously found the self-control to not talk about them, which is unlike any delusional person I have ever known in my life.

You see, some of our kids, not all, but many of them--will be as crazy and as big a losers as we allow them to be.

 

[BusynMember]

dtsc this is such a fresh idea and I like it! They live at home but care for their own needs and only reside in part of the house. They can make a mess, but not in your space. They are basically treated as if they live elsewhere. I think it's a good way to both leave one another alone and teach them that if they don't change the bedding or do the laundry...it stays dirty.

The only change I'd make in this solution is that they pay something.

I don't think that everyone will embrace this idea, but I do! The fact is, the more we do the little but important things, such as laundry, the less they learn to be adults.

I believe strongly that the boy has something off about him...possibly depression or a form of autism that impedes him. You can't discount genetics and bio. Dad committed suicide. A suicidal parent puts the offspring at higher risk. This is documented.

I believe an assessment and treatment would help him, but if he won't go he won't. We cannot make them do anything. They have to decide to do it, like Child of Mines boy did...living on his own and working hard. We can't do anything to force it.

We can certainly curtail what they say to us if they are financially dependent on us, but that doesn't alter what it is in their minds. That's the important issue. That's where dangerous thinking lurks...where we can't see it. It doesn't go away just because the person feels he must not say certain things out loud.

I would rather hear it so I had a real feel for how my child thought...if he/she were rational, happy, sad, suicidal. I'd want to at least be prepared. For whatever.

Therapists saved my life. Period. I'd be a suicide statistic without help.

 

[AppleCori]

Back in the day, when d c was living with us, I told hubby that if he was going to live with us long term, we would need to finish out the basement or move to a house with a separate living area for him.

 

[Copabanana]

is that they pay something.

In my state paying something would mean tenants rights, and I know of kids that have forced parents to evict.

a separate living area for him.

We did this. We put a separate entrance in a wing of our house, that has its own bathroom, and we separated it with a door. My son is there now! He does not want us to confine him there (has its own fridge and microwave). So he is motivated to act right, clean up, etc. so that we do not restrict him to that space or put him out.

But I do not think confining them to a part of the house would work, until they are motivated to some extent to cooperate. It sounds like lil and Jabber's son is improving (less aggressive and volatile--somewhat) but I think he is trying to play them. I do not think this should be rewarded. Of the ideas floated so far, I like the one best of paying his rent for one month. Although I think that is for Lil and Jabber's benefit (a way to get him out). I do not think it is the best for SON.

 

[dstc_99]

dtsc this is such a fresh idea and I like it! They live at home but care for their own needs and only reside in part of the house. They can make a mess, but not in your space. They are basically treated as if they live elsewhere. I think it's a good way to both leave one another alone and teach them that if they don't change the bedding or do the laundry...it stays dirty.

The only change I'd make in this solution is that they pay something.

LOL, that is about to become part of Tay's living arrangement. She actually called her dad last week in the morning to ask about moving in. He texted. I agreed. Before we could discuss it she was moved in. literally by 2pm before I could even get off work! Since then her job, my volunteer work, and fathers day have impeded us actually setting down to talk. I refused to do it on Fathers Day. Now I think she is enjoying the lack of stress and spending time with friends. Her father (who she deals best with) has been given the order to haul her in for a night of discussion on this. I want a plan. If she is going to work full time then she can pay rent and her car payment. If she goes back to school and works then we drop the rent but she has to continue her car payments.

 

[BusynMember]

D t s c (stupid tablet turns your handle into the word disc lol) I love the idea. The more I think about it, the more I like it. And really I feel it's not bad for her to relax some after living with her husband. Sure, nothing is perfect...no solution is...but I never thought of this as an option. She's not breaking the law. I think it's a fine compromise for now. Or for as long as you want it.

I am newly starting to believe that we as parents should not have to suffer because of our difficult kids. I believe it's okay to do what we feel we can live with. If the adult kids don't take our opportunities to let them learn to grow up, in whatever way we see fit and can live with, then not growing up will bite them in the buttocks one day. We can't live forever. But that is THEIR problem. We can't let our adult kids kill us.

I think that's the name of a book! Really!

 

[Jabberwockey]

You mentioned a basement. Why not let him live down there and draw up a rental agreement? He pays a minimal amount monthly and you don't have to see him? You write in to the agreement the ability to spot check twice a month without notice? He isn't allowed in the rest of the house unless invited. He doesn't pay rent or breaks the rules you start the eviction process. Being a lawyer you could figure out the gist of a generic rental contract that would get him out of your hair.

Not really an option. First off, the rental laws in Missouri HEAVILY favor the renter. We found that out the hard way when we tried to evict a tenant from a rental property we no longer own. She never paid us a penny and it took us several months to finally force her out. Besides, I don't want him getting the idea that he has "rights" in our house beyond those that everybody has. Also, we aren't home during the day so have no way to enforce the whole "stay in the basement" thing. Besides, the basement isn't finished yet and wont be for a while.

As far as their son needing a great deal of help, I disagree there, too. To me, he seems headstrong and self-indulgent, but he seems to control himself when he needs to.

As long as he believes his mother will suffer for him, he will not change. I believe that because I have seen that with my own eyes with my own son.

I agree Copa. There have been times he was on a rant, not full blown tantrum but working towards it, and when his phone rang he answered it and talked like he had not a care in the world. There does come a point in his tantrums that he has lost control. When I had to call the police on him last month was one of those times. IF he would step back when he starts getting out of control and check himself he'd be ok. Problem is he wont acknowledge that he's getting out of control.

This last part is definitely true Copa. He knows if he tried playing the suicide card with me, I'd call him on it and report it. He wont usually bother to ask me for cigarettes because he knows the answer is no. I've told him before that I don't mind giving him a ride every once in a while but I'm not his personal taxi.

Lil do you ever think that maybe the little things they do irritate you more than they should?

No. What he does or doesn't do tends to be in a disrespectful way. Almost immediately after being told to do or not do something, he will act opposite of how he is supposed to. The dishes for example. Its not that he's just not doing a very good job on them. I've gone into the kitchen not long after he's "done dishes" and checked. The sponge in the sink is wet, the one for when we actually run a sink of water. The scrubby sponge that has a soap reservoir is bone dry. He literally wets a sponge and wipes it down. This is him bucking against our rules, pure and simple. He KNOWS from the ghetto apartment that leaving out dirty dishes will draw bugs yet he does it anyway. I will freely admit that some of the things he does that annoy me are simply my pet peeves, but the vast majority goes against what we've told him for years and still tell him on a regular basis. He knows better but chooses not to do what he should.

 

[Lil]

bout J. It is hard to kick out ones child. Children REALLY have to behave intolerably for parents to allow them to become homeless. Usually the behavior is repetitive. J is homeless because his parents, and probably the rest of his family and friends, can't live with him. So why should you?

About J. I don't think they kicked him out because of the way he is. I think he's the way he is because of them. When they were 16, his mom (who did not work and stayed with "friends" - the ones who introduced my son to pot) decided to move to Texas to live with her internet boyfriend. Or son and J asked for J to stay with us. The ONLY TIME I ever met the woman was when she came to our house to pick up the power of attorney for us to take care of her son. She spoke to me once by phone. Then there was a couple of texts when we decided he had to go. That's how much she cared about him. She left him with total strangers. The place she lived in was a pit, but it was free to her so I guess that was all that mattered. He slept in a wet basement there. At our house, at 16 years old, was the first time in his life he'd ever had a room to himself.

In the end, we took him to his father and they didn't get along...never did apparently. Mom was supposed to have custody of all 3 kids, but she let dad have 2 of them and J stayed with her.

The reason I wonder is because I think that as the parents of kids like ours who can be angry, unpredictable, and just downright scary at times we develop a small case of PTSD. Or some version thereof. We see the small stuff and in our mind it is a precursor to something bigger. In our head we picture the next major meltdown or the kid homeless when in reality we are just making ourselves a nervous wreck.

in my humble opinion I think your son needs some major help. Personally I think it would be a great idea to get him away from all this crap and somewhere where he has a good influence. Easier said than done.

He had that with his grandparents and his aunt...that was a nightmare.

Why not let him live down there and draw up a rental agreement? He pays a minimal amount monthly and you don't have to see him? You write in to the agreement the ability to spot check twice a month without notice? He isn't allowed in the rest of the house unless invited. He doesn't pay rent or breaks the rules you start the eviction process. Being a lawyer you could figure out the gist of a generic rental contract that would get him out of your hair.

They live at home but care for their own needs and only reside in part of the house. They can make a mess, but not in your space. They are basically treated as if they live elsewhere. I think it's a good way to both leave one another alone and teach them that if they don't change the bedding or do the laundry...it stays dirty.

The only change I'd make in this solution is that they pay something.

I don't think that everyone will embrace this idea, but I do! The fact is, the more we do the little but important things, such as laundry, the less they learn to be adults.

In my state paying something would mean tenants rights, and I know of kids that have forced parents to evict.

Well I don't think he'd ever do that; make us evict. The fact is, he wouldn't know he could and I'm a lawyer...he still seems to think I know what I'm doing there.

But the "part of the house only" thing? He would still come eat the food - we work all day and he has the house to himself.

I don't change his sheets - they're the ones he moved in on - I don't do his laundry. I (mostly) don't do his dishes and I don't cook for him unless I feel like it. Jabber and I cook and he either eats what we fix or fixes his own. Granted, we buy stuff he'd eat to keep around the house.

I'm still at a loss. Jabber and I have a lot to talk about. We haven't yet.

 

[Jabberwockey]

But I do not think confining them to a part of the house would work, until they are motivated to some extent to cooperate.

I agree with you on this but its also simple facts. Our house isnt set up to be able to do that. We live in a split foyer so there's no possible way to close off part of the house just for him. Besides, just because he's walled away from us doesn't mean he isn't making part of our house nasty and drawing bugs.

 

[Copabanana]

You can't discount genetics and bio. Dad committed suicide. A suicidal parent puts the offspring at higher risk. This is documented.

It doesn't go away just because the person feels he must not say certain things out loud.

If somebody feels like threats of suicide are a handy dandy option in their survival tool kit, this only increases the risk potential. A some point, a decision must be made by a parent, even a therapist, as to whether a suicide threat is an instrumental means to secure a desired end, or truly a desired end.

There is always risk.

But there are risks to everything.

The American Suicide Association, I think that is there name, uses this acronym to evaluate threats: Is Path Warm. I copied it from Wikipedia. It is hardly reassuring. Most of us have had kids that have exhibited at least mildly the elements of this list. But the thing is very few of our kids have killed themselves. We must take heart from that.

I know in my heart, I must take a stand for my son's strength and potential. And I believe that most of us know our children, and have a good sense of their risk potential.

Ideation Threatening to hurt or kill self; looking for ways to die
S Substance Abuse Increased or excessive substance use (alcohol or drugs)
P Purposelessness No reason for living; no sense of purpose in life
A Anxiety Anxiety, agitation; unable to sleep
T Trapped Feeling trapped - like there's no way out; resistance to help
H Hopelessness Hopelessness about the future
W Withdrawal Withdrawing from friends, family and society; sleeping all the time
A Anger Rage, uncontrolled anger; seeking revenge
R Recklessness Acting recklessly or engaging in risky activities, seemingly without thinking
M Mood Changes

 

[Jabberwockey]

If the adult kids don't take our opportunities to let them learn to grow up, in whatever way we see fit and can live with, then not growing up will bite them in the buttocks one day.

Yeah, our son is starting to find this out. Some of the jobs he's applied for have told him that they passed him over due to his sketchy work history.

 

[Lil]

It's late all. We need to go to bed. Tomorrow is another day.

 

[Copabanana]

He knows better but chooses not to do what he should.

The basic and elementary fact is that he could care less. He, like my own son, believes he can go through the motions, if at all--paying lip service to what we say.

Some of it is habit, but a lot of it is attitude. It is hard to change, but not impossible. Lil would see some progress if he was trying at all to change. He is not. He is defiant. That is what it looks like to me.

My son does the washing dishes with plain water trick. I just hate it.

 

[Copabanana]

Sleep tight, Lil and Jabber. Whatever you decide will be the right thing. I just know it.

 

[BusynMember]

Nobody expects suicide. From what I've seen amongst my kids peers, and they all knew kids who did it, there is no talk of it, no warning. One boy shot himself with his police fathers gun. He had had problems, but he had been with his girlfriend the night before and she said he'd seemed fine. No suicidal talk. There is no way to predict this, or any aspect of the future. I can say that I've been on the board a long, long time. Nobody has posted a suicide on this board that I ever saw. Threats yes. The actual act, no.

Having had mental health issues myself, they do not just go away on their own and we don't tell the world how we really feel inside. It is hard to talk about and depression causes a hopeless feeling anyway...if we know somebody, anybody will not validate our feelings, we shut down. But that doesn't change what's inside.

Do I know your son? Not at all. I was more addressing Lils son and my impression of him and his biology. Anger is common in depression. So is the feeling that you can't do anything right. And worthlessness.

Anyhow, nobody can force our adult kids to get help. And nobody can convince another that getting mental health services from the right person can save a life or at least change a life. So I won't try.

Have a peaceful night to all!!!

 

[savior no more]

Literally, he makes me want to just give up. He makes me just want to literally walk out of this office and get in my car and disappear. Just drop off the planet and never be heard from again.[/QUOTE]

Oh lil - I have felt this exact way many, many times. I haven't had to yet as some time and distance and reprieve seems to allow me to face this yet another day or time. My prayers are with you.

 

[Copabanana]

I was the only one who did not think he was seriously and irrevocably mentally ill. The only one. (Except for M who thinks my son has not one thing wrong with him.) That stupid psychiatrist/pschoanalyst I was paying $250 an hour was certain, just certain that my son (who he had never met) was a goner.

All I did was tell my son I would not talk to him if he spouted his fruitcake theories--and hung up if he did--and he was cured

Now, I am aware here that one might think that I am forcing my son to suppress mental illness as a condition of support by me.

Or conversely, might think that I am taking away the pay off and incentives for my son to act mentally ill, or extract favors from others using the excuse of mental illness.

Of course, I prefer the latter. The worst could happen or it could not. My son will decide. If he feels that my view of him is incorrect or harsh, there are all kinds of community resources of which he might avail himself, away from me. All of them, I am certain, have harsher requirements than do I. It is his choice.

I am not insensitive to mental illness. I just do not think it is an excuse to not be productive if one is able bodied, attempt to handle problems and to control one's behavior, except in extreme cases.

I prefer to pull for strength. Almost all of the children on this forum save the ones with active psychosis fit the criteria of being able to be productive, should they choose, and control their behavior. I believe to expect less of them is to sell them out. Actually, I do believe that. To the extent that I did not call my son out, before, I betrayed him and I betrayed myself.

After you guys went to sleep, I went out to the kitchen to tell my son to help me wash the dishes and stove. And guess what? He had done it.

He is concerned because last night he left the back door wide open and the cat got out. He is apprehensive we will ask him to leave. While it breaks my heart a bit that he is fearful, I believe that in another way I am reassuring him--because I have a bottom line. I have a bottom line for him. Of what I expect from him. Expectations are a vote of confidence. Hope is a vote of confidence.

I believe that strongly, actually.

I am reassuring him that I believe in him. That I believe in him so much that I can hold the line. My line. I am even believing now a little bit that in time this will mean that he will be able to pick up the slack for me a little bit, some day. I am gaining confidence that this might happen. That as I get older and older, he will step up. That is very important to me because I want to be able to leave him whatever money and assets I have.

Of course, the worst thing can always happen. But sometimes, it does not. We cannot always be afraid of the worst thing.