So does my mom even now. But to be fair I am not complaining I dislike doing any of the above. For example I had a huge lawn not useful at all but it looked great but when I realized I had to cut it every week I destroyed it and replaced it with synthetic one. Same result less work. I do not like chores, some I can not avoid but I really will what I can. It makes me remember the army where we where put to clean the floor with out toothbrush because our superiors found that funny it was mandatory so I had no choice about going in the army in the first place. You would think that the discipline that most men in my country gained from the army would make our country great but it makes us leave the country for better pastures to put it like that. I really hated the army.
I can't do this....
- Thread starter Lil
- Start date
Copabanana
Well-Known Member
I a short on time and my internet connection is slow so I cannot seem to do the quote function. Skimmed the responses, and want to respond to a couple of you.
First, we tried the pushing son to finish a training. It was nurse's assistant, to be exact. He got his certification and worked at a locked psychiatric unit for 15 months or so. Would I push him again? No. He did work hard, but this is when he began to manifest symptoms of mental illness and during this period he had his brain injury.
I would not do it again. Had I not pushed him, would he have gotten to the same place? I will never know.
My son never held a job as long as he held that one, and he was never to work again for more than a few months--until now working for us. Will he work again? I believe he will.
So, based upon our experience I do not think a training and a job is the end all for our situations. My son was about the age of Lil and Jabber's and I was desperate. He was refusing to go to college beyond the one year I pushed him complete--he was wanting to do nothing at all. I could not accept it. What I would do if placed in that situation, I am not sure. But I would not push the training.
I might suggest options, but I would not push.
I think the only realistic solution is to get son out of the house. He did better when he was out, and he will do better again. This is a developmental issue for Lil. In the main, it is not about son. Son, actually, thinks he is doing just fine thank you. He may complain about this and that and sing woe is me, but I think he is cooking with steam in his life plan which for now is not doing much.
A dad has reassured me several times that he was such a youth. Correct me if I am wrong, a dad, but I think you were slow to grow up, not especially ambitious, afraid to work, etc. If my son turned out to be as good and wise a person, and as good a Dad as is he, I would be mighty pleased and consider myself as a Mom to have done my job. But a dad seemed to find his own solution. Which is where I think Lil and Jabber's boy is headed. He just needs to get out of the house, and he will set about solving his problems himself. I sense this.
Now, SWOT. I wish my quote machine was working but it is not. I am in complete agreement with you about mental illness. Believe me, I am. I do not doubt you about anything--I know that mental illness affects self-esteem, motivation, performance, aspiration, stamina and a million other things.
You are right. I do not believe my son right now could hold a job in the community, and if he did it would cost him tremendously to keep it--and would likely damage gains he is making and has made. I do not disagree here.
But I believe we are in agreement that it is equally damaging to support him in indolence, thinking and activity that undermines a sense of reality, isolation, and lethargy. To the extent that I buy in that he has no chances, no future, no possibility and no functioning role in this life, I am part of the problem, not the solution.
To insist he get up and work, keep his space clean, contribute to the upkeep of the house, not act out, etcetera, I do not believe I am being either unkind or non-supportive. I believe I am voting for him and his potential.
While he could not do a regular job in the community now, I believe he may have that capacity some day, perhaps soon. Nobody knows if he will or will not. If he does not, I will not be devastated, as long as he finds some way to live in a way that gives him the sense he is independent and useful. I think I care more that he might have his own family, because I will not always be here. But I understand that is beyond my control and just because he may not attain this while I live, does not mean he will not.
To believe and hope for my son to be capable and productive in the way he can be is not to either deny he is mentally ill or to infer that mental illness is something to recover from or that can be recovered from, in all cases. Particularly in his, because of his background and because he was never without an IEP in school, and because of his difficulty these past number of years.
I am pleased with my son and proud of him. He has much decreased his marijuana use, and is trying hard to ween himself off the caffeine pills, admitting now to himself that he is addicted. He works every day. He is trying to assume responsibilities around here. OK. He does do it instrumentally (so we do not kick him out) but he is doing it. He is loving and to a large extent respectful. He is compliant. He is happier.
This is a big, big start and a significant turn around in less than a year. Does this mean he is not mentally ill? No. Does this mean he no longer has significant limitations? No. Does this mean he can hold a regular job or go to and complete college? No. It means none of these things. But I believe there can be recovery from significant mental illness. I believe significant limitations can be surmounted. I believe that mentally ill people can in some cases go to college and work. Will he? I do not know. Maybe he will or maybe he will not. He will decide in the course of his lifetime. Not me. I know that.
When you read that I have hopes for him, or want for him, you hear me saying he is either not acceptable to me the way he is, or that I am denying the difficulty of his changing and succeeding. You hear me imposing my own standards on him.
I am not saying anything of the sort.
First, we tried the pushing son to finish a training. It was nurse's assistant, to be exact. He got his certification and worked at a locked psychiatric unit for 15 months or so. Would I push him again? No. He did work hard, but this is when he began to manifest symptoms of mental illness and during this period he had his brain injury.
I would not do it again. Had I not pushed him, would he have gotten to the same place? I will never know.
My son never held a job as long as he held that one, and he was never to work again for more than a few months--until now working for us. Will he work again? I believe he will.
So, based upon our experience I do not think a training and a job is the end all for our situations. My son was about the age of Lil and Jabber's and I was desperate. He was refusing to go to college beyond the one year I pushed him complete--he was wanting to do nothing at all. I could not accept it. What I would do if placed in that situation, I am not sure. But I would not push the training.
I might suggest options, but I would not push.
I think the only realistic solution is to get son out of the house. He did better when he was out, and he will do better again. This is a developmental issue for Lil. In the main, it is not about son. Son, actually, thinks he is doing just fine thank you. He may complain about this and that and sing woe is me, but I think he is cooking with steam in his life plan which for now is not doing much.
A dad has reassured me several times that he was such a youth. Correct me if I am wrong, a dad, but I think you were slow to grow up, not especially ambitious, afraid to work, etc. If my son turned out to be as good and wise a person, and as good a Dad as is he, I would be mighty pleased and consider myself as a Mom to have done my job. But a dad seemed to find his own solution. Which is where I think Lil and Jabber's boy is headed. He just needs to get out of the house, and he will set about solving his problems himself. I sense this.
Now, SWOT. I wish my quote machine was working but it is not. I am in complete agreement with you about mental illness. Believe me, I am. I do not doubt you about anything--I know that mental illness affects self-esteem, motivation, performance, aspiration, stamina and a million other things.
You are right. I do not believe my son right now could hold a job in the community, and if he did it would cost him tremendously to keep it--and would likely damage gains he is making and has made. I do not disagree here.
But I believe we are in agreement that it is equally damaging to support him in indolence, thinking and activity that undermines a sense of reality, isolation, and lethargy. To the extent that I buy in that he has no chances, no future, no possibility and no functioning role in this life, I am part of the problem, not the solution.
To insist he get up and work, keep his space clean, contribute to the upkeep of the house, not act out, etcetera, I do not believe I am being either unkind or non-supportive. I believe I am voting for him and his potential.
While he could not do a regular job in the community now, I believe he may have that capacity some day, perhaps soon. Nobody knows if he will or will not. If he does not, I will not be devastated, as long as he finds some way to live in a way that gives him the sense he is independent and useful. I think I care more that he might have his own family, because I will not always be here. But I understand that is beyond my control and just because he may not attain this while I live, does not mean he will not.
To believe and hope for my son to be capable and productive in the way he can be is not to either deny he is mentally ill or to infer that mental illness is something to recover from or that can be recovered from, in all cases. Particularly in his, because of his background and because he was never without an IEP in school, and because of his difficulty these past number of years.
I am pleased with my son and proud of him. He has much decreased his marijuana use, and is trying hard to ween himself off the caffeine pills, admitting now to himself that he is addicted. He works every day. He is trying to assume responsibilities around here. OK. He does do it instrumentally (so we do not kick him out) but he is doing it. He is loving and to a large extent respectful. He is compliant. He is happier.
This is a big, big start and a significant turn around in less than a year. Does this mean he is not mentally ill? No. Does this mean he no longer has significant limitations? No. Does this mean he can hold a regular job or go to and complete college? No. It means none of these things. But I believe there can be recovery from significant mental illness. I believe significant limitations can be surmounted. I believe that mentally ill people can in some cases go to college and work. Will he? I do not know. Maybe he will or maybe he will not. He will decide in the course of his lifetime. Not me. I know that.
When you read that I have hopes for him, or want for him, you hear me saying he is either not acceptable to me the way he is, or that I am denying the difficulty of his changing and succeeding. You hear me imposing my own standards on him.
I am not saying anything of the sort.
TheWalrus
I Am The Walrus
This is my 2 cents and you can take what you need and ignore the rest.
I learned, the hard way, not to set a boundary if I thought for one second I would backslide. So before I set something, hubs and I discussed it and discussed possible scenarios and what we could and could not live with. Because I learned that if I drew a line, my daughter crossed it, but I couldn't bear to watch her live the consequences, then I just drew another line a little farther out. And she knew it. She knew I would just keep moving the line bc in my heart, I just kept thinking, "If only..." so I would give her ANOTHER chance. And it sounds to me like you and Jabber thought this out - this wasn't an arbitrary or angry, "you have until....to get out," thing.
They keep stepping over the lines when they know you will erase them and just draw a new one. And I learned that usually what was the worst scenario in my mind never came to fruition. So if it were me, I would stick to what I told him and no matter what he would be out. If he became ridiculous or even threatened self harm, I would call 911. No games, no messing around. There are resources. There is help. And most importantly, he CAN help himself - he CHOOSES not to. It is also a choice on your part to become enmeshed in that and let his behavior and choices and consequences rule your life, your emotions, your home and your peace of mind.
I have another child, whom I never talk about bc she is the day to my other daughter's night. She is a teenager who lives at home. She works full time, has her own insurance and retirement account started, and attends college full time on her own scholarships, grants, and finances. She asks for nothing ever. She helps around the house and is beyond grateful. She will soon transfer to another college and live on her own and I will be sad for her to go because she is just so easy going and such a joy. She is a TEENAGER and one of the most responsible, hard working people you would ever meet. If a teenager can have TWO bank accounts, health insurance, retirement, work full time, and find her own resources for college, a grown man can work and pay his way.
I am sorry if that sounds harsh, but I just cannot stand lazy or entitled. I have zero patience or tolerance for it. If that were me, I wouldn't be sad or upset or worried. I would be angry and over it.
I learned, the hard way, not to set a boundary if I thought for one second I would backslide. So before I set something, hubs and I discussed it and discussed possible scenarios and what we could and could not live with. Because I learned that if I drew a line, my daughter crossed it, but I couldn't bear to watch her live the consequences, then I just drew another line a little farther out. And she knew it. She knew I would just keep moving the line bc in my heart, I just kept thinking, "If only..." so I would give her ANOTHER chance. And it sounds to me like you and Jabber thought this out - this wasn't an arbitrary or angry, "you have until....to get out," thing.
They keep stepping over the lines when they know you will erase them and just draw a new one. And I learned that usually what was the worst scenario in my mind never came to fruition. So if it were me, I would stick to what I told him and no matter what he would be out. If he became ridiculous or even threatened self harm, I would call 911. No games, no messing around. There are resources. There is help. And most importantly, he CAN help himself - he CHOOSES not to. It is also a choice on your part to become enmeshed in that and let his behavior and choices and consequences rule your life, your emotions, your home and your peace of mind.
I have another child, whom I never talk about bc she is the day to my other daughter's night. She is a teenager who lives at home. She works full time, has her own insurance and retirement account started, and attends college full time on her own scholarships, grants, and finances. She asks for nothing ever. She helps around the house and is beyond grateful. She will soon transfer to another college and live on her own and I will be sad for her to go because she is just so easy going and such a joy. She is a TEENAGER and one of the most responsible, hard working people you would ever meet. If a teenager can have TWO bank accounts, health insurance, retirement, work full time, and find her own resources for college, a grown man can work and pay his way.
I am sorry if that sounds harsh, but I just cannot stand lazy or entitled. I have zero patience or tolerance for it. If that were me, I wouldn't be sad or upset or worried. I would be angry and over it.
Sister's Keeper
Active Member
Not to be nitpicky, but EMT training is an 8 week course. It does not require a college degree, it does require some field training. Of course, it also requires random drug testing.
Lil, I get it. It is really easy to get angry and put someone out when they do something egregious to us like steal, of become abusive, or destroy property. It is so much harder to put them out when they really have done nothing. Which is really ironic, since doing nothing is the problem to begin with.
I totally get where you are torn. My head says, "Tough love, it's the only way he will learn." My heart says, "Pay the 1st month's rent (as long as you don't have to be on the lease) and let him deal with it from there." To me, that is the path of least resistance and they way to get him out of the house with the least amount of drama.
so ready to live
Well-Known Member
Hi Lil and Jabber. I'm usually here's the line, you crossed it, pay the consequences... but...the first month's rent thing is growing on me. Because it's for you. $400 worth of "mental health" The plain truth for us was that it is so much easier to say no after they are out than it is to get them to go. (notice I did not say kick out-he has made the choice to drug and not work) In reality, it will certainly cost more than $400 with basics to start again. A contract, in writing, all sign, this is it, never living here again, no more. That line will have to be held more firmly in the future due to bending this time. Time to fly young man. It helped me to remember that it was disrespectful to our son to treat him as if he were incapable, unable to grow up and become a man. I wish so much that we had said "I know you'll figure this out" instead of so many times saying "Let me do it for you". Take it from someone who tried everything for 10 yrs. (really all his life) When what we were doing didn't work, we intensified the effort, only to have that not work. ...and now I feel we wasted 10 years and certainly didn't help him. We can't get that back. Save you. Ultimately, your son must save himself. Prayers.
Jabberwockey
Well-Known Member
To me, its just a delay tactic. It doesn't eliminate the worry, just shifts the possible date of incident. It also wastes $400 that we simply cant afford to waste. Do we have the money? Yes, we have the money. But after what we spent on getting the property, it represents the vast majority of our savings account. There will also be the issue of the utilities. We would have to put them in our name in order for him to move in. Then, next month, if he hasn't found work yet we will be expected to not only pay the rent but we will have to pay the utilities to keep from getting our credit dinged.
GoingNorth
Crazy Cat Lady
Sorry, I looked into EMT training many years ago. (like 35) (couldn't do it. Damned knees) at the time, a couple of community colleges were offering it as an associate's degree program.
I'm kind of scared that it isn't these days.
I'm kind of scared that it isn't these days.
Childofmine
one day at a time
You may be right. It's hard for them to learn really fast. It usually takes months and years and our being consistent in our NO to have an impact.
I see this as perhaps not the best solution, but an incremental step to get him #1 out of the house and #2 allow Lil to not go insane over taking this step.
I know how hard it is for Moms and sons, because I lived it!! My husband always says Moms and sons are the toughest nut to crack.
But having said that, perhaps you and Lil are at a different point. There just is no good solution here. The whole thing is tough.
Just thinking of you both and know we are supporting you, regardless.
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Lil
Well-Known Member
Well yes, we did set the deadline. But I admit, I would not have if I had ANY inkling he wouldn't get a damn job and be ready. He'd done pretty well for 5 months, worked, paid the rent. Yes, he didn't pay the electric, but he was the only one of the 3 people in the apartment working and I do think he was doing his best while trying to get them to step up.
I guess the point is, I really thought this would work out differently.
There's really not. The Salvation Army is the only shelter and it's usually full. There aren't other forms of assistance except food banks that will give anything to single men.
It's SO easy when I'm not talking to him to say, "Out You Go!" I KNOW this is his doing in large part, I do!
But when he's talking to me...or if I think about it for long...I just can't stay firm.
I see three alternatives. #1, Pay the $400. Maybe he makes it, maybe he doesn't. If he doesn't though, then he's not only homeless but also evicted and that's much worse because around here no one will overlook a prior eviction. #2, Let him stay with us. He'd have to work and bank money - that we can SEE happening - so that in a few (weeks/months) he can move out. We set a deadline of no longer than 6 months (that's the magic number for landlords - employed for 6 months). There would have to be other restrictions and I see disaster just written all over this scenario. #3, Stick to our guns and put him out. And break me.
In our defense, we didn't let him come home to live. His home burned down! He was supposed to be in the new one in two weeks!!!
Or we could shut them off.
What really sucks about this is we have so little time! We have to make up our minds yesterday here!
Some do, some don't. There are different requirements for different levels and they differ state to state. You are all correct. lol
AppleCori
Well-Known Member
What is "J" doing right now? The now-homeless guy. (Is this a different guy from the one he was living with in the apartment that burned and then the motel?)
Is he looking for work? Does he have any ambition to do anything other than mooch? How old is he?
Just wondering if, between the two, they could come up with the money for an apartment?
Is he looking for work? Does he have any ambition to do anything other than mooch? How old is he?
Just wondering if, between the two, they could come up with the money for an apartment?
Jabberwockey
Well-Known Member
You and me both.
With any luck, making plans to go back to Texas. J is even less reliable than our son. We've both been wishing that he never even came back to town. Our son keeps trying to bring him over every night, probably in the hopes that we will feel guilty and let him stay again.
Childofmine
one day at a time
Yes he had a setback and you did the only thing you could do, in my humble opinion. But he didn't pick it up and move it forward after that. He just "stayed back" with the setback. So that's on him.
He has had ample time, Lil, and I know that is so hard to bear. And now, it's time to pay the piper. If you two decide to offer one month's rent, that is WAY beyond what you told him you would do. And so again, you are teaching him that you will say one thing and do another (but I get that, I am not criticizing you).
When will you stop? That is the question. Stopping is the hardest thing you will ever do in your life, because then you have to live with yourself, but that is the greatest gift you will ever give him, your beloved son.
And he may go even further backward before he starts going forward.
If you decide to take a firm stand (whatever that looks like), you will need support and help. The idea for counseling is a good one, or Al-Anon or whatever you decide to. Otherwise, he will push hard and it will be too hard.
Take it from me. I so understand, believe me. I understand your Mother's Heart and I understand how painful this is for you. But looking back, it's actually more painful for you than it is for him. And that has to change or nothing will ever change.
Lil
Well-Known Member
No they are two different guys. J was a high school friend of our sons. K he met at college. K is about 30. It was K who lived with him before the fire and in the hotel.
J was working sign holding with my son. He got fired before our son quit. He was supposed to work at Wal-Mart, but for some reason that fell through. He is trying to get on with a cleaning crew.
K moved in with some girl and promptly got her pregnant. He is apparently now working at some factory job.
K was supposed to move back in with him, but will be staying with baby mama instead. They'd decided J will move in, but well, being homeless and jobless, who knows what will happen?
AppleCori
Well-Known Member
It was a lot easier to kick ours out, because we had the assumption that his mom would take him in, which she did. And she, in turn, pawned him off on us, or got us to pitch in with money for a rooming house-type room when no one was willing to have him. Mom still had their other-at the time minor- son at her house, so not helping really wasn't an option.
It was a safety valve that you guys don't have, so your decision is much harder than many of us have to deal with.
It was a safety valve that you guys don't have, so your decision is much harder than many of us have to deal with.
Jabberwockey
Well-Known Member
K and his girlfriend already have a place. Its not an option, for unknown reasons, for our son to live there. J and K don't particularly like each other, mooches usually don't when the other is horning in on their action, so having them living together would be counter productive at best. Our son does talk about other people who stay there are thieves.
Lil
Well-Known Member
Because she lives with her mom and I understand there's already other people living there too.
BusynMember
Well-Known Member
No.those people are not reliable.
Honestly. Don't kill yourself emotionally doing this. If you can't do it in your heart, you don't have to. It was brutal fot me and my daughter had a place to stay.
We need to be good to ourselves too.
Honestly. Don't kill yourself emotionally doing this. If you can't do it in your heart, you don't have to. It was brutal fot me and my daughter had a place to stay.
We need to be good to ourselves too.
Jabberwockey
Well-Known Member
Ah, knew about the other people. Didn't know it was her mom's. Besides, with the sticky fingers issue it wouldn't exactly be the best place to go. And for the four of them to get an apartment big enough?!?!?! Yeah, that just ain't happening as K is probably the only one currently working and I doubt the girlfriend would want to leave mom's house.
BusynMember
Well-Known Member
Mental illness can get much better WITH HELP.
Mine did.
Mine did.
