I had to say it...

Childofmine

one day at a time
What a gift it is to go on vacation....together!!! I love the great sharing of a wonderful time away.

believe they seek to mature in a healthy way. RN posted
to my thread this morning support to not react. She wrote that she thought my son was trying to get it. I was reminded by her comment that I have a choice to stay open, non-judgmental and not afraid. I was reminded that this is the process. And we are in one moment of it. I was reminded that I am developing here, not just him.

It's so confusing, because for many of us (especially the Cinderella types like me) I thought "a successful life" had to look a certain way, and that anything else wasn't good enough. I have learned a lot since then, when I could only see that. I have changed, like you said, and like you have, Copa, while at the same time, he has been changing. We are both growing and changing for the better. Not just him.

I am adamant that my home will be our sanctuary.

Yes, we must, we absolutely must have our own safe place, our own safe place, so we can rest and be sheltered from these terrible storms with our DCs. Somewhere---either a physical place or a place we create inside ourselves that we can retreat to, to rest, to heal and then to come back again to face whatever it is.

There comes a time and a threshold when enough is enough.When that time comes, is up to each individual, each situation is unique, everyone has to forge their own trail.

And who knows what "enough is enough" means. It may not just be a physical drawing of the line, but some other sort, many sorts of new boundaries and "lines" that are different for each of us. It's all good. It's all okay. No hard and fast rules here. We do what we can live with, each one of us.

I am thinking that that is the place I need to create in myself.

Yes, that long lovely beach where the sun is shining and the waves are coming in again and again. The horses are running free. And we are too.
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
Copa it sounds as if you have reached your Zen.
Thank you, PASA. I hope so. There is still suffering. I mean, I react. I feel sad when I am let down, and it is very hard to hear his pain. It frustrates me and frightens me, because M (when my son is here at the house) has less tolerance than I, and of course, how could he feel the happiness I feel? But all and all, I feel immeasurably better and grateful to have him close.
Warrior woman, You have raised your skirts and roared.
Oh my, how good this feels to read this. And I also lost 2.5 pounds this week!! How much better can it get!
You are clear on your boundaries and expect him to not cross them. There is resolve that he will be held accountable.
Thank you, again, PASA. I think you are right.

Last night he said he was open to psychiatric medications and would at the beginning of the month seek out his old child psychiatrist who is near-retired but will still see him. I very nearly offered to pay his train ride and expenses for the trip, but stopped in time. This is the kind of thing that always backfires. By over-reaching, I get myself in too deep, and he responds by undoing the whole thing. We end up in a very much worse place by my trying to dance, when he has not asked me.

In so many ways it is harder with the improvement. I fear more. I hope more. I am more out there in every way.

But I am so happy.

Thank you PASA
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
What a gift it is to go on vacation....together!!! I love the great sharing of a wonderful time away.
I felt panicky here. I kept thinking what vacation...with my son?

And then I remembered. Duh. Our tropical paradise.

And I had been dancing Tango on the bar!! OMG.

I had repressed the memory of it. And then? I remembered:

It is the new me! I am no longer not owning it, I will become it!!!

Thank you everybody.
 

RN0441

100% better than I was but not at 100% yet
New Leaf thank you for your uplifting post! In spite of all you have been through the past several weeks, you are steadfast in your resolve to protect your boundaries.

I needed that strength today. Always second doubting myself. Feeling bad yesterday that my son is 1500 miles away while we were having brunch with our two older boys and their girlfriends. Then went to the grocery store and saw all the things my Difficult Child likes and felt a big hole and sadness. My husband doesn't seem to understand how painful it is for me as a mother, but he tries. Thank you.
 

Lil

Well-Known Member
Then went to the grocery store and saw all the things my Difficult Child likes and felt a big hole and sadness.

Doesn't it suck how you can see something that should make you smile...but it hurts instead? :(

So...He got paid Monday from the job he quit. He got paid Friday from the sign holding job. He's broke. He spent the weekend with J and some other friends and I guess J has been supplying him with smokes, etc. and he repaid him, so now he has nothing. Needless to say, I picked him up in a mood. I really don't get how he's just so angry when he talks to me...practically shaking he's so angry with J and his friends and how he believes he's a doormat and they should treat him better - but J calls and he's all, "Sup? No man it's all good. Hit me up on Facebook later, we'll make plans."

Excuse me?

Is this the guy you say treats you so badly? WTF?

So anyway, he's all, "I'm sorry, I don't have any money left. I let you down." and I'm like, "I'm not mad at you. You're letting yourself down." He just HAS to earn money he says, he can't be without money. Why not? He's got room and board and even cigarettes and bus passes. What does he need $20 in his pocket for? But whatever. He can do our yard work we didn't do this weekend.

He went to bed at 7:00 last night. He actually said he was, because he was in such a bad mood he didn't want to get into a fight with us and so it was best to just not be around anyone. Well ... okay. Just as well, since something went wrong with our DVR and Game of Thrones didn't come on in the living room and heck, I was all ticked off about that - he'd have lost it entirely!

I am once again just ... shaking my head. I just don't understand how he can be what he is. I bet he hasn't showered 4 times since mid-April when he moved in. I'd be surprised if he brushed his teeth that many times. He sleeps in his clothes. He's just - gross. I DID NOT RAISE HIM LIKE THIS! Why won't he just clean his ass up and get another job? Why? He doesn't want his friends taking advantage of him - stop. He doesn't want to share an apartment, get a full-time job so you don't have to! Wash your clothes, take a bath, brush your teeth and go find work! This is not rocket science! WHY IS THIS SO HARD?
 

RN0441

100% better than I was but not at 100% yet
Lil

I don't get any of this with our kids. I often wonder if my son now takes care of himself daily - he is far away. I would get so angry that he would not shower and look like a normal person. That is beyond gross to me. I didn't even care if he showered daily - which is normal for most - but every other day would have been good enough.

Is it that they dislike themselves so much? Is that why?
 

pasajes4

Well-Known Member
Wash your clothes, take a bath, brush your teeth and go find work! This is not rocket science! WHY IS THIS SO HARD?
This is my son. He was not bathing at the facility. He had his own shower with handicap friendly features. There was bathing assistance available if he need it. I was taking his clothes home and washing them. They asked that I stop. It was part of his rehab to do daily living chores. He refused. The girl he liked told him he smelled bad and he got mad at her and cussed her out. That ended that budding relationship. How the H is that so difficult to do. This isn't new. He was this way before. He had a write up everyday when he got locked up for hygiene issues. He is just plain disgusting.
 

Lil

Well-Known Member
Is it that they dislike themselves so much? Is that why?

It's funny that you say that. This weekend, for no particular reason, a church-friend said to me after service, when we were talking...not even about the hygiene thing, though I guess I've mentioned it in the past... "You know, the lack of hygiene is a direct reflection of how he feels about himself. He lets himself be gross and disgusting because that's how he feels; he feels like he's worthless, like he's useless garbage and garbage doesn't bathe."

Makes me tear up just writing that. There's no reason for it!
 

RN0441

100% better than I was but not at 100% yet
I think depression can make them not want to bath also. My son says he's not depressed anymore now that he is living in Florida. When he FaceTimes us he looks good. He was very clean, hair cut etc. when we saw him last month.

That whole issue is just so weird. I was happy when I got on this site to see I wasn't the only one dealing with it. Didn't make it more understandable though but at least we are all confused together.
 

Lil

Well-Known Member
He just texted me that he's going to do half the lawn this morning and half "when he gets back", which usually means he's going to hop on a bus and go hang out with J. I broke the "don't ask" rule I've been trying to make and lectured him on how he should be taking a shower, brushing his teeth, putting on clean clothes and looking for work and that "hanging out" should be the LAST thing on his mind. He called. Yes, he's going to hang out with J on his break, but he plans on cleaning up, washing his hair, and looking for work.

Puleeze. :unsure:

He will never find work the way he looks.

I'm actually tempted to use this court date against him and tell him (really, the truth) that if he has a job - two jobs even better - and looks halfway decent and walks in there contrite but having changed his ways, he's more likely to get another probation period. Meaning, cut his hair, wear clean, pressed, clothing, etc. Maybe I could get him to actually DO it.

Am I actually considering manipulating him to get a bath and a decent job?
 

Jabberwockey

Well-Known Member
This weekend, for no particular reason, a church-friend said to me after service, when we were talking...not even about the hygiene thing, though I guess I've mentioned it in the past

That was the conversation at the time. Talking about Joyce's son.
 

Lil

Well-Known Member
No, Darin said that before we really got into the conversation with Joyce...kind of right off the bat. But I suppose context doesn't matter.
 

Jabberwockey

Well-Known Member
Am I actually considering manipulating him to get a bath and a decent job?

I wouldn't consider that to be manipulation. Telling him that you wouldn't help him with it might be. You simply told him the truth as you know it. You and I both know that judges will look on these things favorably, whether he believes us or not is his issue.
 

Ironbutterfly

If focused on a single leaf you won't see the tree
About hygiene issues- my son is same way. He explained to me that the reason he dresses like homeless poor person and doesn't bathe is because when he preaches on the street, people open up to him and he meets them on their level. He said you dress in suits, people walk away. I was so proud of him when he got all dressed up for his grandmother's funeral in January. So handsome. But alas, he fell back into no showers, stinky clothes, and oh gosh, he wears tennis shoes with no socks, talk about gagging a maggot smell. I buy him good shoes, socks, foot powder, hygiene products, always gets left somewhere.

But I also know when people use drugs or are depressed or have low self esteem, they just don't care about their hygiene.
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
About hygiene issues

I think it is the same for my son, IB. He cultivates his image. He has body dysmorphic disorder believing he is ugly (gorgeous) and self-conscious about his balding (slight). So he wears a hoody, in what ever weather.

Why don't you wear a cap, Son?

You just don't get it Mom.


My son is clean, showering at least daily. But he wears clothes he gets from the homeless mission or from a psychiatric crisis clinic. He asks us if he smells because he says he lost his sense of smell when he had the brain injury.

I think they are playing a part. For what audience? That is my question. And for what? Do they believe there will be some intervention forthcoming? Is it a penance?

My son invests care in his hygiene. Why would he not care about his appearance--how he appears to others?

For the longest time after my mother died winter or summer I wore one knit shirt, washed every single day. I told myself I did so because it was comfortable. But I knew better--I could not adorn myself. I could not care for myself. I cared less how others thought of me. My grief I wore like a shroud.

Why would our children be so sad, and so unable or unwilling to throw it off? Honestly. That is the question and that is our collective grief.
 

TheWalrus

I Am The Walrus
My daughter doesn't have hygiene issues. Hers are different. She was so, so beautiful. Striking. Now, she looks like a different person. Ratty hair that has four inches of her natural color in the roots and some odd Kool Aid color the rest of the way down. She doesn't care if her clothes match. Her face is lined and drawn already from smoking and drugs. She always smells like an ashtray and often something else...moldy, maybe...like clothes that were left in the washer too long.

I know to some these may seem like frivolous things - appearance, hygiene. But to see the child you love who was once so beautiful become so aged and care so little about herself is sad. It just adds a visual component to all that is wrong within them.
 

Jabberwockey

Well-Known Member
I know to some these may seem like frivolous things - appearance, hygiene. But to see the child you love who was once so beautiful become so aged and care so little about herself is sad. It just adds a visual component to all that is wrong within them.

Its not just that either. Their hygiene, or lack thereof, affects how society sees them. It affects their ability to get a job, to get friends, to keep a job, to get an apartment. Whenever we get onto our son too much about the hygiene thing, his go to response is that people should accept him for who he is, not how he dresses. That's all well and fine for friends but when you are meeting someone for the first time for whatever reason, the lack of hygiene IS who he is to them. Its all they know and all they have to base their decision on.
 

RN0441

100% better than I was but not at 100% yet
My son's older brothers would also get on him about his hygiene. It seemed the more we got on him the more he dug his heels in.

I even told him if he wanted to live with us he had to keep himself clean at one point.

Oh at one time I did hear that THAT is the one thing they can control when they feel other areas in their life are OUT OF CONTROL.

That does make some sense....
 

Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
I have a choice to stay open, non-judgmental and not afraid. I was reminded that this is the process.

Read more: http://www.conductdisorders.com/community/threads/i-had-to-say-it.62177/page-13#ixzz49Zn51ABP

On the fridge it goes.

Open, non-judgmental, not afraid. Which is subtly different than "unafraid".

Thank you, Copa.

I just don't understand how he can be what he is. I bet he hasn't showered 4 times since mid-April when he moved in. I'd be surprised if he brushed his teeth that many times. He sleeps in his clothes. He's just - gross. I DID NOT RAISE HIM LIKE THIS!

This happened to my son too, Lil. Prior to what I now understand had to be the core issue for my son, he was so clean and roaringly picky about his belongings and his room and his person.

But he was like, easy in his skin, if you know what I mean.

He was so particular about his clothes. I mean what he wore, and what he would never consider wearing.

He had those gloves without any fingers and things like that.

Which was something new, back in that time, and utterly cool.

And then, he just got so dirty. And his room was all piled with stuff. And you know? I never really thought about it before, but all that clothing disappeared, and all those nice things. He had a paper route before he was old enough to drive a car. Like, twelve. We had to sign for him to be able to do it. That is how young he was. He would wake up on his own and deliver the papers on his bike. Sometimes I would help him on Sunday, when the papers were so heavy, or when it was raining. And you know what he bought himself with that money?

A beautiful waterbed for his room.

Really a beautiful headboard.

Nice.

And part of what happened, once he was older (16) and had that plum job in that stellar restaurant where he would have gone from busboy to waiter to bartender and so on right through college is that everything he had was dirtied and broken and carved on.

And he stopped being clean.

It really is like we never saw that child turn into a man, at all.

There is someone else there, now.

Even his cars were turned into pieces of junk. But at first, it wasn't that way.

I was so affected by seeing the relationship between that mom and her children last night at my Book Club. Strange, isn't it, that we never put the pieces together. I am taking over your thread with my own stuff this morning, Lil. But just think how we tear into ourselves, how we question the why behind what is happening to our families and blame ourselves.

That mom was just so casually loving with her kids. She called each one over to meet me, because I have been away, and had never met them.

And they were such nice kids.

It really affected me, to see them together.

Is it that they dislike themselves so much? Is that why?

I was here on the site for so long before I could let go of that thinking that told me it was my fault. That insisted I had gone absolutely wrong somewhere.

My son did not seem to dislike himself so much as he seemed to hate me. Seemed to hate all of us.

That started the "Why?" spiral.

And that is how I lived my life you guys, for the next twenty years.

With that kind of guilt and horror and shame and deep regret.

Isn't that something.

My son is forty, now. We lost him when he was 16. By the end of that 16th year, he was gone.

So, a part of what we do to heal is remember, and grieve for ourselves and our gone children.

Where did he go?

My daughter is still herself, is still here. Things were very different, with my son.

Where did he go?

He must be in there, somewhere.

But you know what, you guys? That son I was just thinking about, who was clean and happy and so funny. It's like he hates me, now.

And he is not kind, anymore.

He is kind of scary.

This is my son. He was not bathing at the facility. He had his own shower with handicap friendly features. There was bathing assistance available if he need it. I was taking his clothes home and washing them. They asked that I stop. It was part of his rehab to do daily living chores. He refused. The girl he liked told him he smelled bad and he got mad at her and cussed her out. That ended that budding relationship. How the H is that so difficult to do. This isn't new. He was this way before. He had a write up everyday when he got locked up for hygiene issues. He is just plain disgusting.

This is happening to all our children.

Out of all the differences in the ways they were brought up, some families religious, some not, some with working moms, some with moms at home, some of us single moms (or dads) and some of us not and etc...this is the one commonality.

They turn dirty.

How awful for us.

Those were our babies.

About hygiene issues- my son is same way. He explained to me that the reason he dresses like homeless poor person and doesn't bathe is because when he preaches on the street, people open up to him and he meets them on their level.

Daughter's situation is different than Son's, to a degree. But she went through a whole thing with going "natural". Part of it for daughter was that she developed a fear of the shower because she could not see or hear if someone scary was coming in, while she was showering.

Could that be part of it for all the kids? A kind of hypervigilance, and a kind of magnification of any flaw into the only thing they see about themselves?

How awful for them.

We have discussed before whether drug use destroys the capacity for empathy. Maybe, they come to a place where they have no empathy for themselves, either. Radical Compassion is about allowing empathy for ourselves.

Maybe, they cannot do that?

Maybe that capacity is trapped deep within them too, with the other good things about who they were as children.

Cedar
 
Top