I had to say it...

[Scent of Cedar *]

I will be losing my weight running after the cabana boys.

Oh, wait.

Horses. We have horses.

Okay, then. I will be running after the cabana boys on my horse. No one will be able to see what I weigh.

Two birds.

One stone.

Cedar

 

[InsaneCdn]

No one will be able to see what I weigh.

You will be the perfect weight, remember? So you can have your choice... on foot or horseback

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

The horses will be faster than the cabana boys.

...

:O)

Cedar

 

[Copabanana]

My son is a compulsive liar- which I believed he learned to do to survive on the "streets".

Mine too.

You'll get plenty of exercise dancing in the bar!

I am dancing on the bar. Tango, of course.

Before I leave fantasy island, if we are in Jamaica I want Bob Marley. Resurrected.

OK, Lil. It seems like we are in the same place (again.) Honestly, the only thing I can think to do here, is focus on myself, my absolute tranquility and well-being. At least, what it might look like, from afar.

These kids of ours are boys in men's bodies who are trying to grapple with fathoming the elephant, without any real sense beyond parts. The whole of the thing (maturity and character): truth, responsibility, accountability for them are to them only the tail, the tusk and the eye. They cannot grasp (yet) the abstractions of those terms, because an operational definition does not yet exist in them.

They are tethered to us, still, as the means to grasp what life requires of them. When I think about it, I think that meal ticket, or ATM, or a place to flop, are not in the main, what they seek.

I believe they seek to mature in a healthy way. RN posted to my thread this morning support to not react. She wrote that she thought my son was trying to get it. I was reminded by her comment that I have a choice to stay open, non-judgmental and not afraid. I was reminded that this is the process. And we are in one moment of it. I was reminded that I am developing here, not just him.

Cedar wrote a lovely message to you a day or two ago after the disaster where she told you how much joy and admiration she feels to see your's and Jabber's respect for each other, and care, and commitment to respond the best you can. In the midst of disaster and uncertainty, you guys keep on keeping on.

Of course it is easy for us to see the exactly right thing to do and what should be done. Because we are on our Fantasy Island Vacation where we only do the right and absolutely most excellent thing every single time with our kids (and everybody else's kid, too.) Don't you know????

I am thinking that that is the place I need to create in myself. That place of refuge where I am dancing Tango on the bar; the breeze is mild. And I am free in the moment and supremely confident and safe. And I act in the present, from strength and knowing. Because that is who I am. (uh oh. Panic here. So far from the me, who is here typing.)

When I was working at a prison about 7 years ago, and could not stand it, and could hardly get through a day, a co-worker sent me a youtube video: 80 year old competition acrobatic salsa dancer.

I would watch that video every time I lost faith that my life would change. Because I was living with the fantasy of returning to Rio to dance professional tango, a dream I had to leave when my son broke my foot.

Until when my mother died I went back every 2 years to maintain my dance and my resident's visa.

So, this is the place I will see myself, now, to feel strong and capable and present.

On top of the bar. I am there. And all of you are there too. You are cheering me on. Your beverages of choice in each fist *for some, it is green tea or iced tea. We are all of us happy and content.

And together. How great is that!!

 

[pasajes4]

I am happy that we could share a grand adventure together. Hey, We share the dark and the ugly. Sometimes we need to take a break from it all even if it is only a cyber adventure.

Lil, I have known parents who were so Zen that nothing their troubled ones did phased them. They lived in the center of the volcano and kept on trucking. They were happy to provide a safe place for their out of control kids to stay. They were totally committed to being a parent until the day they died no matter what their children did. I tried that. It is not me. I do not think that it is you or Jabber. I was told that it was their issues drugs/mental illness and not them. I agree with that. What I didn't agree with is not holding them responsible for getting help.

This is a horrible road to navigate with very few smooth patches. With much love I will now retreat to my chase by the pool and enjoy a cold one. Aloha

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

I have known parents who were so Zen that nothing their troubled ones did phased them. They lived in the center of the volcano and kept on trucking. They were happy to provide a safe place for their out of control kids to stay. They were totally committed to being a parent until the day they died no matter what their children did.

I wish I could be this way, too.

Did you feel the parents were enabling, pasa? Did the family seem happy together? Geez pasa, not to give you the third degree, but detaching has been so hard for me. Did the children in that family go on to do well? That thinking has a nightmare resonance for me. That maybe we could all have lived together and come through this, somehow.

But then I think about Jabber's son coming at him to get the phone because he is angry Jabber won't drive him somewhere ~ or let him take the car, which is what he probably really wanted, and believed he should have.

The thing is, the kids always want to bring homeless friends, too. We would have to draw some line, some where.

I think we did the right things.

But in my secret heart, I wish I'd been those parents.

I know I am not supposed to say that.

Cedar

 

[pasajes4]

But in my secret heart, I wish I'd been those parents.

I wish I could be that way too. I do not feel that you are giving me the third degree. Yes. It was total enabling of the worst kind. The house was trashed from the inside out. There were holes in the walls. Their kids talked to them like they were dog poop. Their reasoning was that they brought these kids into the world and it was their God given task to take care of them and make them happy no matter what. All of the kids got a check that the parents controlled. They let the kids (adults) have the run of the house and the parents would take off for days at a time. It worked for them. I was incredulous. I could not live that way with my kids doing drugs in my house and the total lack of respect not to mention destruction.

 

[BusynMember]

I think that's insane.

Who will put up with these adults when the parents are gone? Probably jailers.

 

[RN0441]

I thought of that too at one point with my son. He's "ours" so we have to put up with it. Where can he go, what can he do?

I realized it wasn't healthy for me or my husband or our marriage. I knew it wasn't the way we were meant to live. And my son wasn't happy either or thriving!

In a way it's being lazy not doing anything isn't it?

 

[BusynMember]

But we've all gone over the top helping them and it didn't work.

For so many of our adult children, they have to be out on their own and having it rough before they improve. But many, if not most, do get better. Would they improve with no motivation? I doubt it. Those parents can't be there forever for those adult kids. And when they are either gone or too sick to stay at home, what will happen to adults who have no skills at all?

I can't see how that is being a good parent.

RN, I feel all of us are the exact opposite of lazy. It is harder to let go and hope than to allow our adult kids to stay home, feel safe, and act like savages...at least those parents know where their kids are. It may not be easy, but it's mentally easier in my opinion to have them around than to send them off, praying that they grow up, not knowing where they are.

 

[Jabberwockey]

But in my secret heart, I wish I'd been those parents.

I could never be that parent. No matter how they may look outwardly, they have to be completely and utterly miserable. As bad as things can get with our child, as much pain as we can be in, as much turmoil is created, in the end at least I have my self respect and the knowledge that I did the right thing even though it ended poorly. I cant help but pity those parents, so much more concerned with outward appearances that they cant risk losing face to try and deal with their problems.

 

[Jabberwockey]

Who will put up with these adults when the parents are gone? Probably jailers.

I've said it before, the vast majority of inmates are, notice I used the present tense here, difficult children no matter what their age. Some days seeing one of them FINALLY work it out is the only thing that keeps me going. There is hope, a light at the end of the tunnel, even though we may have to travel through it for decades before reaching the end.

 

[so ready to live]

Hi all.
I see you've taken a vacation without me these last few days...you could have called ....

In some ways, it is good when they cross a line because things get clearer for us.

Yes Yes Yes- shaking as I found straw and baggies in basement, I took pics on my phone so I would never forget when my mind later would tell me I "misunderstood".

I think we did the right things.

But in my secret heart, I wish I'd been those parents.

I know I am not supposed to say that.

I've felt so much of this, we knew we could not stand it anymore and yet that underlying thought "maybe one more try" until we realized we were the only ones trying for 10 yrs...

I could not live that way with my kids doing drugs in my house and the total lack of respect not to mention destruction.

True, we could not live that way. Having another so affect your life that every minute was "what are we going to do now?"

at least I have my self respect and the knowledge that I did the right thing even though it ended poorly.

I would like to feel this but it is so difficult in the mire of it all. Where's the right thing? Verbal disrespect, pushing past you, drugs, lying, stealing...ah the boundaries...

...and yet we love.

Our son was asked to leave in Feb., he came home to get things 3 different times-he was obviously impaired each visit. We now have not heard from him in 8 wks-is he missing? drugged out somewhere or worse? has he moved? We would feel better just to know he was ok, but the stress of seeing him and being with him is worse than the not knowing. For those of you still trying with your kids home -in my secret heart- I'm envious. But for us...we can't go there again. Prayers.

 

[RN0441]

Honestly I value myself and the type of life I want to live too much to continue on the road we were on. I think I could do it if, and only if, I KNEW my son was benefiting from that in some way.

But coming to this forum made me SEE that it wasn't helping any of us by living that way and I am very grateful for that.

The butterfly story that has been posted here is a beautiful way of putting it.

How will it all end? I don't know.

 

[PonyGirl65]

So so so many times, I wished I could "turn my head" and "not see" what was happening right in front of me. Or even slightly behind me. Or in the dang basement.

I wished I could close my eyes and not have to deal with the mess. I wished things were different, and just poof! by magic.

But I could not. I couldn't ignore the bloodshot eyes nor the stench of old beer. I couldn't convince myself that I actually had smoked the cigarettes myself that were missing from my pack even though I kept close count. I could not ignore the erratic behavior or the slipping grades or the missing money or the cock-eyed stories or the struggle to wake him up in the mornings.

I couldn't unsee the things I had seen. And I really really REALLY wished I could.

And there was no help. Not from school or law enforcement or social services or church or friends or family. No help no help no help. And no one understood.

Until I came here.

And you all gave me respite from my broken heart. And gave me back my spirit and the will to go on. And helped me find the next right thing to do.

My story did not turn out as I would have hoped - well, check that - my son's story did not turn out as I hoped. But as Leafy is always gently reminding us, the end of the story is not yet written.

I am proud and grateful that I was a Warrior Mom. I did what I needed to do in order to "save" my PC24 son, and myself, from GFG31 son's destructive road down drug addiction. If I had to go back and do it all again (GASP!) there's d@mn few things I would change. I did the best I could, with what I had, at the time.

And, when I knew more, I did better.

Thanks to all of you, Board Aunties past and present, who helped me know more.

Peace

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

It was total enabling of the worst kind. The house was trashed from the inside out. There were holes in the walls. Their kids talked to them like they were dog poop.

You know what? So did mine. Until we stopped enabling. The house wasn't trashed, but their rooms were just awful.

Isn't that something.

Thank you, pasa. I get a little weak-kneed sometimes in my thinking. I swear my kids can sense it, too.

D H even gets weak-kneed in his thinking sometimes. I think what it is is that we forget how awful it was and judge ourselves from the perspective of today.

We should never do that.

It's a good thing I followed this thread.

Not to be mean about Lil and Jabber's son (I'm sorry, you guys), but the kids themselves make it impossible to know how to help them. We do our best, and find ourselves triangulated from our mates and spending huge gobs of unanticipated and unbudgeted money and our lives are put on hold and we can't even think straight.

D H and I do feel like that.

But still we get weak-kneed in our thinking, over time.

And we are left just shaking our heads, because we lived by our integrity and kindness and we never can figure out how we could have managed things differently and the guilt of it just kills.

But it wasn't us.

It really was the kids. And it really was true that we were enabling the very thing we were trying to help them with. So we had to change, because they could or would not.

We are actually amazing, to have been able to face and come through this.

No wonder I have complex PTSD and need to go to cyber Hawaii.

And ride a really fast horse, for those who have been following my weight loss program.

:O)

Thank you, pasa.

Cedar

 

[New Leaf]

My two brought so much never ending drama and chaos into our home. It was a war zone. No matter how calm, how level headed we were, it made no difference. The cycling of destruction continued and they didn't seem to grasp that it was due to their own poor choices. There was always someone or something else to blame for it. They valued their "friends" more than family, rejected a " conventional" way of life, i.e. working, paying their own way.......for partying. When things got tough for them, they came home needing " help" but seemed to mock the help they got, and brought their drama into our home. Slept as we went off to work, did less and less, expected more and more with no expression of gratitude or display of responsibility. It was an entitlement to them.
Echoed the words "You are my parents, my family and you are supposed to help us."
It was handouts they wanted, not hands up to a better way of living. They were completely satisfied with mooching off of us, while despising our lifestyle and work ethic. Bite the hand that feeds and all over the home that provided shelter, warmth and a place to lay their heads down. This happened every single time we opened our door, hearts and spirit, thinking that maybe, just maybe this would be the time they got it.
Well, even after the struggle, turmoil and sadness over the loss of their father, they still don't get it. One would hope it would be an awakening, a pivotal point and it yet still may be. Until then......
I am adamant that my home will be our sanctuary. I will not allow that whirlwind of chaos and trauma to enter. I fear I would not survive it and the train wreck of their lives would flatten me.
They would care not.
I love them with all of my heart but understand as long as I am more vested in their future than my own, they will not grasp the concept of their responsibility towards themselves and their children.
I am convinced that when we take on their struggles more than they do, they learn to lean hard and ungratefully on us. It is as if they cried
"Help me, help me, you have to help me." Then when we did, despised us and the sanctity of our home, our peace, for doing so.
It is the ultimate disrespect to us as parents and themselves. Their ships were sinking fast, and they did not care how, when, why or who they took down with them.
Reflecting on this and the many times we sacrificed our peace to try to rein in the craziness, tried to offer respite, tried to help, is what keeps me steadfast in my resolve.
Yes, my Rain is homeless, her choice. Yes, my Tornado is still with her abusive baby daddy, her choice. Yes my grands struggle, not their choice, but I have been told by their parents, I have no rights over them.
Am I cold hearted, steel plated and selfish?
NO.
I am trying to hold on and work towards the peace I must establish, the boundary of respect, and the importance of showing them that while I am their mother, they have no entitlement or right to tread all over my heart and home with their chosen lifestyles.
Lil and Jab as well as those of you who have a one and only d c, my heart goes out to you, as I can only imagine the turmoil in your souls over the heartbreak, time and effort made to help. How much so vested in hopes that this one child would grow into the responsible adult you so lovingly raised. Not to say that those with several children are less vested in each child, but at least some of us have the blessing of adult children who are managing their lives.
For all of us as parents, as people who have worked hard, sacrificed time and given our children the best we possibly could, we at very least deserve to be appreciated and respected when offering our homes and help.
I think the more we allow lines to be crossed, the more these kids will try, manipulate and blame.

There comes a time and a threshold when enough is enough.

When that time comes, is up to each individual, each situation is unique, everyone has to forge their own trail.

God bless each and every one of us who are faced with this journey.

Leaf

 

[Copabanana]

New Leaf, that was a beautiful post. You sound strong and clear. I do not think it changes much to have just one child. I believe Lil and Jabber would fight for their boy, even with five more behind him. I think there are so many factors, and like you say, there is an end of the road, too. Not to love, but to trying...when you realize you are out there alone. But what seems an end, can only be a curve. Or fog that clears.

I agree. Addiction to hard drugs closes a door. Addiction is personal. There is no room for parents there, except for moral support, and on an individual basis, probably for younger adults, financial help for a time with conditions.

But for many of our kids, and many of us, keeping on, has a rationale and a purpose. I agree with you here:

each individual, each situation is unique, everyone has to forge their own trail.

I will use my own son as an example. Who for sure lies. And does manipulate if he has a chance. Including triangulating, for sure. He has hurt us. Not bad. Or intentionally. I am not afraid of him. Nor is M. And he is a drama queen, for sure.

But there is a huge difference in one year, to the better. Extremely better. There is not one dimension on which he has not improved.

Partly it is the training on this site which has made a difference. While I cannot catch everything right away, I catch it eventually. We do not anymore allow triangulation to happen. It just does not work. The coercive effects of the lying, too, is lessened as I do not believe anything anymore. Hardly a long-term remedy, but it works. We refuse any drug use at all. One time, marijuana. You are gone. We are vigilant, now. We know how he changes when he uses. We threw him out.

No more school. No more investment in his medical care. If he wants to die, what can I do? He works full time or he leaves any space we control. Period. No breaks to go to the store. And he completes a task in the time it would take another worker. In other words, no breaks for him.

So there is that. I have changed.

But I have changed in becoming softer, too. More open to my love for him. More open to enjoying him. I am letting the good of him in.

Both of us so much craved this. What a long winter unable to love my son openly. It is like a blooming garden to be able to look at him with eyes of love, and open heart, just because he is who he is and nobody more. *Today I feasted my eyes. He is gorgeous. Just utterly gorgeous. (The other night the emergency vet for Dolly was just so gorgeous. My son is too. Yet even this I suppressed.)

Something happened to cool my rage. I was so furious at my son. I do not know where all of that anger went, but it is gone. I am neither angry at him or at myself.

My sense of obligation has lessened and at the same time increased. My sense of self-blame, altogether seems to have vanished. I know I do not have to do one thing. But I want to.

My obligation now is felt differently.

I want to hold out a hand to him to live better. And now when I do he accepts it and does not push me down or away.

I am not sure why he is changed. I speculate. Maybe maturity. Maybe all other doors are closed. Maybe life the way he was living was just too hard. Maybe self-esteem won out. Maybe he just needed time to get back here. To who he always was, just more grown up.

This process of detachment we are going through not only serves to protect us, it can bear fruit. For us and for our children.

Staying in the game (recognizing the need for time outs, even cancellations) can make sense, under certain circumstances with some kids; with some parents.

We change. They change. And then we come together changed. Or we do one thing different. Without expectation. Just hope. And with that, there is a gust of possibility, and then, it becomes real.

We deserve safety, security, peace. A haven. For ourselves and our children.

But sometimes havens start out in conflict-ridden and barren terrain. They are created out of rock and even snow and ice. They are not necessarily made safe by exclusion but by inclusion too. By openness and judicious risk-taking. And hope. We invite in strangers...with strong and open hearts. Sometimes, with some fear. Sometimes these strangers become part of us. Sometimes, like so many of our kids, they once were. And sometimes, like in my own case, risking to have my son back awakened something deep inside of me that had gone to sleep.

I think Lil and Jabber are coming from this place. It is who they are.

 

[Ironbutterfly]

New Leaf, I could frame your entire post. It is how I feel and where I am at right now with my Difficult Child. Incredible post!

 

[pasajes4]

Copa it sounds as if you have reached your Zen. There has been enough change that you are comfortable allowing son to be in your life. You are clear on your boundaries and expect him to not cross them. There is resolve that he will be held accountable.

Warrior woman, You have raised your skirts and roared. I raise my sword and pledge my loyalty to those who plunge head on to take on the dragons that threaten to swallow our young.